Women who play male characters (in games)

[Jeivar]

This applies to both video games and tabletop RPG's, so I decided to post in Media Discussion.

Anyway, in the last few months I've seen several threads about guys who play girls in video games or pen-and-paper, so it occurred to me to hear from other side of things.

Why DO you like playing male characters? And in PNP and video games with character customization, do you design your dudes with anything in particular in mind?

Just curious.

[MLai]

LOL I thought you're talking about Chinese wuxia soap operas where women play the role of the male protags.
It doesn't happen nowadays but it used to be pretty common in old wuxia TV series.

[Jeivar]

LOL I thought you're talking about Chinese wuxia soap operas where women play the role of the male protags.
It doesn't happen nowadays but it used to be pretty common in old wuxia TV series.

Ah. I added to the title.

[Traab]

Most of the time I have seen this question asked its when playing mmorpgs and they say they do it to avoid the "OMG R U a GURL IRL?! A/S/L pics plz!" type garbage. Though too be honest, that seems to have dropped way down in recent years as that style of game has become more main stream and less computer nerd. Others have said they do it because the female character designs (specifically armor) tick them off in a rather major way. :p Apparently they dont get it that a thong and a rubber band across the chest are perfectly adequate suits of armor for women.

[Strawberries]

Several reasons why I do it:

-Because female characters always end up closer to myself than male characters, personality-wise.
-Because for some characters, having them as female carries implications I don't particularly like (I have a character who's male because if I had him as female, he would have inevitably been labelled as a "damsel in distress" stereotype.)
-In some videogames, because I like the character models more. (For instance, I always ended up playing male Argonians in the elder scroll)
-Because some characters just pop into my mind as males.
-Because it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Several other reasons. Those are just some off the top of my head.

I play both male and female characters, but I lean more towards male. Interestingly enough (or not), I tend to prefer females in video games, males in PnP.

EDIT: @ Traab. Good point, armour design and the like. I'm pretty relaxed on the issue, but in some egregious cases I'll choose a male character just to avoid laughing at the absurdity of it every time I look at the screen.

[Talya]

I've tried playing male characters. Back when I played Everquest... (Wow, going back 14ish years now)... about my third or fourth character was a male bard. I ended up roleplaying him as gay, despite the fact that I am bisexual personally. And I still had this identity disconnect. I have a very hard time playing male characters.

[Closet_Skeleton]

-In some videogames, because I like the character models more. (For instance, I always ended up playing male Argonians in the elder scroll)
Good point, armour design and the like.

I'm pretty relaxed on the issue, but in some egregious cases I'll choose a male character just to avoid laughing at the absurdity of it every time I look at the screen.

Personally I find the ridiculous width and limb thickness of male character models far more off putting than any level of plausibleness clothing on the female character models, but I haven't actually played many games where the female armour options are actually that cliche. Also I'm not female so I can't really answer the thread question.

[Strawberries]

I've tried playing male characters. Back when I played Everquest... (Wow, going back 14ish years now)... about my third or fourth character was a male bard. I ended up roleplaying him as gay, despite the fact that I am bisexual personally. And I still had this identity disconnect. I have a very hard time playing male characters.

Interesting. The identity disconnection is something I personally seek when creating a character (unless I completely misread your post).

Personally I find the ridiculous width and limb thickness of male character models far more off putting than any level of plausibleness clothing on the female character models, but I haven't actually played many games where the female armour options are actually that cliche. Also I'm not female so I can't really answer the thread question.

One example I particularly remember was a very brief try of Lineage II: I made a female dark elf, started the game, gaped at the screen, said "SERIOUSLY?!" and switched to a male character.

It is not as important as all the other reasons I gave (particularly the first and the second), but it influenced my choice in a few occasions.

[Traab]

Personally I find the ridiculous width and limb thickness of male character models far more off putting than any level of plausibleness clothing on the female character models, but I haven't actually played many games where the female armour options are actually that cliche. Also I'm not female so I can't really answer the thread question.

All you have to do is look at the concept art for female night elves in world of warcraft. Literal bikinis for clothing/armor.

Spoiler

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And yes, im pretty sure she is about to lose a finger

[Closet_Skeleton]

One example I particularly remember was a very brief try of Lineage II: I made a female dark elf, started the game, gaped at the screen, said "SERIOUSLY?!" and switched to a male character.

All you have to do is look at the concept art for female night elves in world of warcraft

Thankfully my crippling social anxiety makes it almost impossible for me to play MMOs. Bioware and Elder Scrolls games tend to limit things to breast plate rather than thong armour.

I kind of assumed Night Elves were the exception in Warcraft and that human women dressed more practically and Orc and Troll women dressed in skimpy barbarian clothes because the men did too, but I haven't looked at WoW designs since before any expansions came out.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, I used to assume that was a general Warcraft kind of trend. But I' e bought and played Diablo 3 since then.

Male characters mostly start out wearing actual clothes, just regular civilian ones. Female characters are pretty much wearing underwear and not much of it. You don't start getting actual clothing value until about half way through act 1.

[Strawberries]

Thankfully my crippling social anxiety makes it almost impossible for me to play MMOs. Bioware and Elder Scrolls games tend to limit things to breast plate rather than thong armour..

Oh, yeah, I don't like MMORPG either, that's why it only was a brief try. In the Elder Scroll case, it was more a case of preferring the male Argonians ear shape/colouring/nose shape. Plus, lizards with boobs weird me out.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Plus, lizards with boobs weird me out.

QFT.

Seriously.

[Remmirath]

Well, mostly I just like playing a large variety of characters. I think that, all told, I play a fairly equal amount of female and male characters. The male characters I play are all over the board in terms of personality, class, appearance, and such things, just as the female characters are.

I do end up playing male characters slightly more often than female characters in computer games, however. The reason for this is twofold: firstly, a not insignificant number of computer games have only armour options that I consider blatantly ridiculous for female characters, and this bothers me greatly. Secondly, some games simply don't end up allowing me to create the kind of character I want to play as being female, so I just play a male character instead (the female voice and character generation options in Dragon Age II clashed horribly with the kind of character I felt like playing for that game, for instance, so I played a male character even though I'd originally been intending to play a female character).

There are many lesser annoyances I have with how female characters often end up in computer games (they often don't look strong enough, for instance, or end up with odd proportions), but most of these won't cause me to play a male character instead.

Excessively shaped armour with windows and such just makes my teeth grit, whereas the even worse examples of armour on female characters generally make me want to punch something (preferably the designer of the armour).

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yawn... this again.

50% of your audience is actively entertained by something, 40% is neutral, 10% doesn't like it but plays anyways. I'd be unsurprised if I'm too modest with that 50% btw and thus generous with the other portions. Given limited time and resources who's interests should you target? Obvious answer is obvious and is what will happen mostly, since that's where the money is.

Oh you take issue with this state of affairs? Well you have to make the case that whatever the change you want to happen, will increase the customer base while not loosing the old customers. Or at the least gaining more then you are loosing.

You want women designed differently in game Z, well look around for any exceptions to the general trend. Things are almost never absolute after all. You'll get some of your biggest success stories is when some exception hits an under-served market and thus sells like hot cakes.

Lets take say the Elder Scrolls series, pretty close to neutral on this issue yes. Do their sales demographics drastically differ along gender lines versus other RPGs while they also sell at least equally well if not better? If yes then it would suggest there's a bottom line in doing more of that.

What about if its still no and the same demographic mix comes out to buy the games anyways? Well that says that whatever you are looking at is not actually a factor at all, or at least completely outweighed by other issues. Either way its functionally irrelevant.

Or to put it simply... what games (if any) do women actually buy. Not individually but as a group. And what do those game do differently. That can actually be said to work.

That's the sort of questions that should be asked.

The merits of the breatplate versus the chainmail bikini... not so much. If it was that simple someone would have done it and made a fortune. And lord knows nobody wants actual practical wear, for anyone. Practical wear is boring when its not actually ugly too.

[Strawberries]

To be fair, the thread wasn't about breastplate vs bikini. It was about if, and why, female players decide to play male characters, not only in computer games, but also in RPGs.

We've established that, in videogames, if the female models look ridiculous to us, some of us decide to play male characters. I'm among those. I also made several other points on what may impact on my decision of playing a man, in tabletop as well as in computer games.

I would be interested, for instance, in whether other players have ever had the thought "I'm going to make this character male because he could be perceived as a stereotype if I make him female", which is something that has happened to me at least once (it was a dark Heresy pbp, by the way, so pen and paper, not videogames).

[Kato]

As a guy, I never much cared for the gender of my characters in... anything. Okay, there was a female character I made once who was supposed to be pretty sexist to see how others react (which was kind of weird since the setting goes out of its way to be super-equalist, at least when it comes to humans) but the adventure went nowhere so she kind of disappeared.
Otherwise I most often just toss a coin or something, unless is impacts my stats or something. (This might come out wrong but I feel it's kind of weird most games ignore gender when it comes to stats. I guess it'd be perceived as sexist if they did it otherwise but... I think that's a discussion for never)

The only girl in our pen and paper group has... I think played a male, a lizard of... not sure what gender and a handful of females. I guess she just feels more comfortable playing someone female? I never specifically asked her. Another player almost always plays females, one other handles it pretty much like me and the other two male players tend to stick to male characters. Just for the statistics.

[Spiryt]

One example I particularly remember was a very brief try of Lineage II: I made a female dark elf, started the game, gaped at the screen, said "SERIOUSLY?!" and switched to a male character.

To be fair, from what I've seen of Lineage, and similar franchises, all costumes are generally silly period, no matter if they're revealing a bit more or less skin.

http://www.lineage2.com/media/conten...rcmale-lrg.jpg

[Strawberries]

To be fair, from what I've seen of Lineage, and similar franchises, all costumes are generally silly period, no matter if they're revealing a bit more or less skin.

http://www.lineage2.com/media/conten...rcmale-lrg.jpg

Fair point. At first level, though, it was slightly less appalling.
Not to mention, what made me scrap the character was that female dark elves actually run with their behind up in the air (which looks exactly as ridiculous as it sounds). Can't remember if males did it too, but it looked way more silly on the female model, trust me.

[Soras Teva Gee]

To be fair, the thread wasn't about breastplate vs bikini. It was about if, and why, female players decide to play male characters, not only in computer games, but also in RPGs.

We've established that, in videogames, if the female models look ridiculous to us, some of us decide to play male characters. I'm among those. I also made several other points on what may impact on my decision of playing a man, in tabletop as well as in computer games.

And I'm pointing out where having come up, the topic goes from here. Just airing personal opinions doesn't really go anywhere on its own. There's no discussion there, just state ones opinion and boom done. Simple. Is that the end you had in mind? Responding at all would imply otherwise to me.

So I merely followed through in pointing out the larger scale at work and how its kinda besides the point. If this is broadly accepted as a fair point, then that particular line of commentary need not be continued since there's nothing to it.

Now on tabletop. Well some different dynamics there. My own IRL gaming was always with more casual groups so there was much less actual RPing. In that context neither gender ever played against it. Probably because one needs a fair bit more indulgence by the group and a smidgeon of acting ability to get away with it face to face. Then again I gave up IRL gaming as insufficiently immersive preferring play-by-post.

Course that's why I didn't address it either.

(Pbp I play female characters and know its for the much same reason I do in video games. Its just simply more aesthetically pleasing escapism for me)

[Remmirath]

I would be interested, for instance, in whether other players have ever had the thought "I'm going to make this character male because he could be perceived as a stereotype if I make him female", which is something that has happened to me at least once (it was a dark Heresy pbp, by the way, so pen and paper, not videogames).

I have not, but I'm not particularly in touch with stereotypes in the first place, to be honest.

Fair point. At first level, though, it was slightly less appalling.
Not to mention, what made me scrap the character was that female dark elves actually run with their behind up in the air (which looks exactly as ridiculous as it sounds). Can't remember if males did it too, but it looked way more silly on the female model, trust me.

Yeah, running animations for female character can be pretty silly. I hate that weird limp-arm run the female characters in Dragon Age II do, for instance.

Spoiler: Ridiculous armour tangent

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Oh you take issue with this state of affairs? Well you have to make the case that whatever the change you want to happen, will increase the customer base while not loosing the old customers. Or at the least gaining more then you are loosing.

Perhaps I am simply not cynical and world-weary enough yet, but I have a hard time believing that this would not be the case. How many men (or women who do enjoy women in ridiculous armour) are going to actually stop playing the kinds of games they enjoy because of it? I would like to think the answer would be quite close to zero. However, there definitely are women out there who avoid some computer games or computer games in general because of the same thing, and therefore one can assume that at least some of them would start playing them more often.

No, it might not be instant and overnight, because it would take some time for these people to realise the change, but I do believe they would see an increase -- or at the very least no change -- in their customer base rather than a decrease.

Lets take say the Elder Scrolls series, pretty close to neutral on this issue yes. Do their sales demographics drastically differ along gender lines versus other RPGs while they also sell at least equally well if not better? If yes then it would suggest there's a bottom line in doing more of that.

There aren't any other RPGs that sell equally well to Skyrim, from what I've heard of the numbers. Other very high selling RPGs I can think of all do better than average at this issue, yes. Both the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games, while having some armour issues, are quite good at it compared to other games. Older RPGs like Baldur's Gate or Fallout didn't really have that problem, because of the graphical style -- it was very easy to ignore any problem with armour, and the problems weren't so bad anyhow.

So, yeah, I think it might be helping them. It obviously isn't hurting them.

The merits of the breatplate versus the chainmail bikini... not so much. If it was that simple someone would have done it and made a fortune. And lord knows nobody wants actual practical wear, for anyone. Practical wear is boring when its not actually ugly too.

Nobody? Clearly you don't, but equally clearly other people do. I certainly prefer practical armour. I find it looks better than most of the fantasy armour people come up with as well, too.

[Comrade]

Yeah, running animations for female character can be pretty silly. I hate that weird limp-arm run the female characters in Dragon Age II do, for instance.

It was the same in Mass Effect 3. I got way more irritated having to watch Shepard sway her ass around prancing like a schoolchild than I probably shoulda.

[SarahV]

Why DO you like playing male characters? And in PNP and video games with character customization, do you design your dudes with anything in particular in mind?

I've been online since somewhere around 1990... and I have almost always chosen male characters for everything. Including the one tabletop game I ever played that lasted one whole session.

Partly I do it because I'm pretty tomboyish/gender-neutral in real life and it doesn't really feel alien to me (it would feel much more alien to play a very feminine character). And partly because you often get treated differently based on your gender. It usually just seems easier to be "one of the guys" in an online game than to play a character that has an X% chance of some jackhole being sexist/a jerk/hitting on me at some random time. I played a text-based MMPORG for a while and I was absolutely amazed at how the username "Sarah" was basically an invitation for every teenage boy in the world to randomly PM me and ask me to be his cybergirlfriend I changed my name and never had a single message hitting on me after that.

I guess for me part of the roleplay fantasy is that I can be a person who doesn't have to deal with the same sort of sexism that I do in real life. (I also, for the record, abhor the "hot" looking female characters that most games give you as a female avatar. I'm not really sure what the alternative is - frumpy warriors? - but I just hate them and could never use one.)

[Remmirath]

It was the same in Mass Effect 3. I got way more irritated having to watch Shepard sway her ass around prancing like a schoolchild than I probably shoulda.

Ugh. I never played Mass Effect 3 because the various changes made to combat (and the increasing problem with the voicing hijacking the character) in Mass Effect 2 caused me to not to want to bother.

Mass Effect actually had a completely normal running animation as far as I recall, too. I can't say that for Dragon Age -- the lumbering that they all did in Origins was pretty damn weird -- but it didn't bug me as much as that flailing run.

And partly because you often get treated differently based on your gender. It usually just seems easier to be "one of the guys" in an online game than to play a character that has an X% chance of some jackhole being sexist/a jerk/hitting on me at some random time. I played a text-based MMPORG for a while and I was absolutely amazed at how the username "Sarah" was basically an invitation for every teenage boy in the world to randomly PM me and ask me to be his cybergirlfriend I changed my name and never had a single message hitting on me after that.

That sounds extremely aggravating. For whatever reason, I've never had that happen to me; people are always referring to me as "he" and such in game even when I use generally-female-sounding names. Not sure why. Heck, sometimes people even seem to assume I'm male when I'm playing a female character in a MMORPG.

I don't get it, but I suppose if it keeps them from being obnoxious, it's more a blessing than a curse. It doesn't bother me; I simply find the differences between my experiences and yours interesting.

(I also, for the record, abhor the "hot" looking female characters that most games give you as a female avatar. I'm not really sure what the alternative is - frumpy warriors? - but I just hate them and could never use one.)

I'm curious what you mean by this. Do you mean their facial features and such, or how they're dressed? If it's the second, I agree, but I'm mostly okay with the facial features (although I would prefer options for things such as stronger jaws, prominent noses, garish scars, and the like, and those aren't always available).

[TandemChelipeds]

And lord knows nobody wants actual practical wear, for anyone. Practical wear is boring when its not actually ugly too.

Actually, that's something that really irritates me about fantasy as a genre. I hate how stupid, tacky and ornate armor always looks. Armor's there to do a job. It's there to protect you, not to look pretty. Even games like Skyrim that limit the differences in female armor to a tighter fit and breast cups irritate me, because it's stupid. No warrior woman in the history of the world has ever considered it more important for the enemy to know she had boobs than to keep blows from being directed into the middle of her chest, and if any ever did, they didn't live very long. And with regards to aesthetics, I suppose it's a matter of taste. I liked the leather and banded iron armor in Skyrim, but I thought the Elven and Glass armors were hideous.

(I also, for the record, abhor the "hot" looking female characters that most games give you as a female avatar. I'm not really sure what the alternative is - frumpy warriors? - but I just hate them and could never use one.)

I think I know what you mean. If it's the generically hot Megan Fox aesthetic you're talking about, I'm just as sick of it as you are. The thing is, it isn't a dichotomy, and frumpy isn't the only alternative. I'd like to see more female characters with the "grizzled veteran" look, or even just moderately attractive characters that don't bother with makeup and keep their hair short for combat purposes. Female characters can look cool without looking like strippers.

[Serpentine]

Spoiler

Show

Yawn... this again.

50% of your audience is actively entertained by something, 40% is neutral, 10% doesn't like it but plays anyways. I'd be unsurprised if I'm too modest with that 50% btw and thus generous with the other portions. Given limited time and resources who's interests should you target? Obvious answer is obvious and is what will happen mostly, since that's where the money is.

Oh you take issue with this state of affairs? Well you have to make the case that whatever the change you want to happen, will increase the customer base while not loosing the old customers. Or at the least gaining more then you are loosing.

You want women designed differently in game Z, well look around for any exceptions to the general trend. Things are almost never absolute after all. You'll get some of your biggest success stories is when some exception hits an under-served market and thus sells like hot cakes.

Lets take say the Elder Scrolls series, pretty close to neutral on this issue yes. Do their sales demographics drastically differ along gender lines versus other RPGs while they also sell at least equally well if not better? If yes then it would suggest there's a bottom line in doing more of that.

What about if its still no and the same demographic mix comes out to buy the games anyways? Well that says that whatever you are looking at is not actually a factor at all, or at least completely outweighed by other issues. Either way its functionally irrelevant.

Or to put it simply... what games (if any) do women actually buy. Not individually but as a group. And what do those game do differently. That can actually be said to work.

That's the sort of questions that should be asked.

The merits of the breatplate versus the chainmail bikini... not so much. If it was that simple someone would have done it and made a fortune. And lord knows nobody wants actual practical wear, for anyone. Practical wear is boring when its not actually ugly too.

Spoiler

Show

"This again" indeed.
None of this has anything to do with the topic, which is actually quite interesting. If it doesn't interest you, don't read it. Simples.
Just because those issues are not significant to you, does not mean they are objectively insignificant. We are, believe it or not, actually allowed to discuss things that you are not interested in, care about things you do not, and have and express opinions you do not hold. And, as usual: it is not our responsibility to explain why we want improved representation of female characters in all types of media, in both quality and quantity; it is YOURS to justify your demand that half the entire world's population be hidden, ignored, half-arsed and/or, at best, reduced to eye candy for your personal gratification, regardless of that half - not to mention a good slab of the OTHER half - of the world's population's opinions on the matter and their willingness to spend good money for it.

It so happens that, for the most part, the eye-rollingly trashy "armour" given to most female game characters is not enough to overcome my desire to translate myself into an avatar into the video games I play. I almost always play female characters, and when I don't it's usually for completionist reasons - in Dragon Age, for example, I can't remember whether I actually did it but I intended to play as a straight woman, a gay woman and a straight man, or something to that effect, just so I could explore the different relationships involved.

[SarahV]

I'm curious what you mean by this. Do you mean their facial features and such, or how they're dressed?

All of it. I just get tired of the idea that all women have to be sexually appealing in every circumstance, even, e.g., warriors, who probably should be thinking of not dying instead of worrying about their hair and makeup and whether their armor shows off enough cleavage. Can you imagine playing this character in D&D? "Hang on guys, I need two hours to wash, condition, dry and style my hair, and then put on my makeup and lubricate my entire body so I can be shoehorned into that skintight armor." And then after every battle she'd have to redo her hair and makeup, of course... because she always looks perfect no matter what.

I'd like to see more female characters with the "grizzled veteran" look, or even just moderately attractive characters that don't bother with makeup and keep their hair short for combat purposes. Female characters can look cool without looking like strippers.

Yes, that would be great. Fighters that actually look like they might be tough, well-trained and experienced, what a concept! They all look like they are 22-year-old models for a fantasy armor catalog. (At work I see a lot of advertisements for police/military equipment and it is always hilarious when ad agencies put together ads using male models... it probably looks nearly as ridiculous as some of these female avatars. "Wow, I can really relate to this slim, androgynous man with his seductive eyes and inability to grow a beard. Maybe I should buy the same kind of pepperball launcher HE has!")

Disclaimer: I haven't really played these kinds of games for a few years now, so maybe things have gotten better. But I was an early adopter, my (female) best friend and I used to play Doom 2 multiplayer over dial-up... uphill both ways in the snow... She's about the last person you'd suspect to be a gamer, either. Cheerleader in high school, now an attorney, her hobbies include traveling the world to exotic locales and murdering demons online.

[Math_Mage]

I think I know what you mean. If it's the generically hot Megan Fox aesthetic you're talking about, I'm just as sick of it as you are. The thing is, it isn't a dichotomy, and frumpy isn't the only alternative. I'd like to see more female characters with the "grizzled veteran" look, or even just moderately attractive characters that don't bother with makeup and keep their hair short for combat purposes. Female characters can look cool without looking like strippers.

Yer damn right they can!

[Serpentine]

Have you guys played Baldur's Gate? I don't remember those games being too heavy in the "women must be gorgeous at all times" and "female armour = scanty as possible" fields, though it's possible I've just forgotten it.

[Strawberries]

I have not, but I'm not particularly in touch with stereotypes in the first place, to be honest.

Hmmm... I'll try to explain myself a bit better, just to clarify.

I made a Dark Heresy character (for a pbp in this forum) without thinking too much about their gender. Since I wanted to play a psyker, I found myself emphasizing the absolute lack of agency psykers have in the 40K setting through the character background - so yes, I made a weak character, for a certain narrow definition of "weak" - I like flawed characters. Since I hadn't put much thought into their gender, I was about to assign them a female name by default. Then I stopped and thought: hang on a second, what if she's read as a "damsel in distress that needs rescuing?". She most definitely wasn't, and it would annoy me if she was pigeonholed into that stereotype... but just to be on the safe side, since I wasn't attached to the idea of her being female anyway, and I didn't want the extra work to try and sway preconceived notions, I decided to make the character male.

I don't think the character would have been a stereotype regardlessly of their gender, but I made them male to avoid the character being classified at a first glance without any further look into them. Probably just paranoia on my part, though, especially because I didn't know the people I was going to play with at the time.

I think I know what you mean. If it's the generically hot Megan Fox aesthetic you're talking about, I'm just as sick of it as you are. The thing is, it isn't a dichotomy, and frumpy isn't the only alternative. I'd like to see more female characters with the "grizzled veteran" look, or even just moderately attractive characters that don't bother with makeup and keep their hair short for combat purposes. Female characters can look cool without looking like strippers.

Hmmm... I'm not as annoyed as you are on the matter, to the point I don't generally notice, but I remember, for instance, being pleased with the Dragon Age Origin and Mass Effect options for creating female characters, because they offered some diversity.

Another question: do computer games that ONLY offer the option to play a male character put you off playing them? I personally don't mind at all, but I heard some female players make that argument before.