Steven Universe

[LaZodiac]

There is, but don't use it because its dumb why do you even have to shape your identity around a tv show cant we just enjoy things

Also this, yes.

[Lacuna Caster]

If you don't believe me, check basically any gameshow that uses children as contestants. The challenges will be far harder and even those kids can manage with at least enough consistency to make it look doable.

Uh... I'm a little reluctant to cite examples here because it's tantamount to mocking children, but these were the best results I could find offhand?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z85TF10StNU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrkLK-uBqZE

('Children's game show obstacle course' doesn't seem to turn up much on Google beside this sort of thing.)

Now if you legitimately have better examples to show*, please do, but I've seen enough episodes of Wipeout to suggest that first-time pass rates for grown adults (sans extra 'lives') at this sort of thing are essentially 0%. *spreads hands* I am open to correction.


*To be fair, the kids walking on their hands were pretty neat.

[Scowling Dragon]

There is, but don't use it because its dumb why do you even have to shape your identity around a tv show cant we just enjoy things

Agreed. Very much agreed and have to give you major propage.

[Fawkes]

Agreed. Very much agreed and have to give you major propage.

Wait no I changed my mind

gemtlemen forever

my gemsona is ring pop

[Lacuna Caster]

Goddamit! I gotta go here again.

Points:

I'm pretty late to this discussion and catching up would probably take more time than I'd like, so I'll try to keep this broad and to the point.

* Made for adults: Probably?
* Steven is pampered and isolated: Little bit.
* Steven doesn't get a lot of training sequences/flashbacks: Eh... ambiguous. Steve does start weighlifting at one point, and we're not explicitly told he stopped, but Pearl does remark on him lagging behind Connie in swordsmanship. That sort of thing.

* The Gems don't have a clear reason for eating/sleeping/boinking: Pretty much, yeah.
* The Gems have inconsistent power-levels: Pretty much, yeah.
* Nothing happens between episodes: By definition, very difficult to prove.

Counter-points:
* I think the show in general has been improving markedly over it's run in several respects. So a lot of this is mainly applicable to the weaker episodes.
* In a similar vein, I'm optimistic about Steven getting more 'with it' over time, which I think was the most recent bone of contention. (This might also be deliberate setup by the writers.)
* Much of the inconsistency is done for comic relief or at non-critical junctures, so I don't mind that too much. (And honestly, the gems would be a lot less relatable as genuinely asexual, non-affective aliens.)

I like to poke fun at this sort of thing too, but honestly, this is a great show. The music is legitimately excellent, the humour is occasionally intelligent without being mean-spirited, the backgrounds are fabulous, the themes are rich and the ambition is huge. (Where else are you going to find a kid's cartoon that's nearly at golden-era-disney-level quality but deals tactfully with rape and genocide? Also, lesbian erotica.)

[Scowling Dragon]

I'm pretty late to this discussion and catching up would probably take more time than I'd like, so I'll try to keep this broad and to the point.

It is far to late for you. I have now been converted to Germ-Borg 3094. All who do not adore the SU will be converted to service US!

In any case thanks for being respectful and not yelling about me messing up the clubhouse. Allot of the frustration comes from feeling like the second your opinion changes, you are no longer wanted and "Prob just a troll!"

Counter-points:
* I think the show in general has been improving markedly over it's run in several respects. So a lot of this is mainly applicable to the weaker episodes.
* In a similar vein, I'm optimistic about Steven getting more 'with it' over time, which I think was the most recent bone of contention. (This might also be deliberate setup by the writers.)
* Much of the inconsistency is done for comic relief or at non-critical junctures, so I don't mind that too much. (And honestly, the gems would be a lot less relatable as genuinely asexual, non-affective aliens.)

I disagree and believe your points cancel out each other. The people of this show are just too stupid to be relatable. And "Status Quo is God, Emperor, King, and Queen, and all of the Royals" just means that 95% of the drama falls flat on its face in my book. The show is still willing to contort itself at critical junktures as well, which is what made me very much jaded to the show with the first seasons finale.

And lets not kid ourselves. Steven is VERY pampered.

I like to poke fun at this sort of thing too, but honestly, this is a great show.

Nope. I don't believe it to be. I consider it pretty bad, with most of its values and writing to be antithetical to my judgment of quality.

Where else are you going to find a kid's cartoon that's nearly at golden-era-disney-level quality but deals tactfully with rape and genocide? Also, lesbian erotica.

First off not even close to close, and second: In the background. Its popular to have your children's show accrue adult cred by having "Insinuating dark evils". In the background. I have much more respect for shows that bring this sort of thing to the forefront, or don't have it at all but have better content overall. It was cool when Adventure time did it, but now do it or get out.

[Lacuna Caster]

First off not even close to close, and second: In the background. Its popular to have your children's show accrue adult cred by having "Insinuating dark evils". In the background. I have much more respect for shows that bring this sort of thing to the forefront, or don't have it at all but have better content overall. It was cool when Adventure time did it, but now do it or get out.

I'm... not sure how much more explicit these dark evils could be made without actually earning an 18s rating? Not seeing much of a concrete argument otherwise.

The latest episode has Mr Empathy deciding to TAKE A BREAK from the search from the suffering Lapis to instead tend to creatures that are supposed to be light projections and posses no interior organs for the purposes of over exertion.

I was going to let this drop, but really? Steven is literally falling asleep mid-sentence in the effort to keep searching before Garnet takes him home. Your argument is invalid.

See, this is the problem I forsee in debating you. Your specific points might be right, but the overall conclusion requires such an uncharitable and selective reading of the text that it really calls your motives into question.

[Rater202]

"Doesn't need sleep" is not the same as "perpetual motion device."

Continuous exertion will tired just about anything out.

[Lacuna Caster]

Oh, I agree it's quite reasonable for the gems to suffer some kind of fatigue, but if Amethyst can rebuild her body from scratch in 4 hours it's also reasonable to wonder how much standard downtime they'd require. (Then again, I suppose they didn't get a whole pile of sleep.)

It kind of came off as an obvious example of "ok, we need them to talk about this, but we don't know how to make that happen without changing things up too much. Lets give them a new power to make it happen".

That's not a deus ex machina (which I think is the point you're driving at.) A deus ex machina would have to suddenly resolve the problem at hand- which is not "how do we talk to Malachite?" or even "how do we find Malachite's location?" but "how do we stop Malachite from going on a frenzied rampage of destruction?"

Steven's dream-conversation didn't solve that problem (and might actually have made it worse by distracting Lapis.) Nor is it exactly sudden, given that attempts to find Malachite have been going for weeks or months.



On a totally unrelated note- Pizza does actually come up before in the show! Together Breakfast ends with everybody deciding to order pizza takeaway. Even Pearl approves! It is her secret shame! TEAR DOWN THE CANON

[Admiral Squish]

There is, but don't use it because its dumb why do you even have to shape your identity around a tv show cant we just enjoy things

I don't really see it as an act of shaping my identity around a TV show. I think, in the vast sea of highly unique individuals on the internet, the labels we apply to ourselves are more like signage, advertising the kind of people we are behind the labels. There was a very well-written monologue about uniqueness I'm remembering vaguely, but I can't remember where it was from. Basically, it was about how people are like snowflakes, in that every one is unique and beautiful and fragile in its own way, and yet, at any significant distance, and in any significant number, they are impossible to tell apart. When I first declared myself a brony, I didn't force myself into an ill-fitting mold, rather, I found a mold that already fit me. If MLP had never become a thing, I would be pretty much the same individual. The labels we use to identify ourselves are how we separate ourselves from the background noise, they help us find and attract individuals of like mind amid the tumultuous chaos of the internet. If I enjoy a thing passionately, it's generally because something about that thing resonates with some aspect of me. If other people enjoy that thing with similar passion, the chances are relatively good that those people have similar aspects to them.
[/end pseudo-sociology rant]

[Scowling Dragon]

See, this is the problem I forsee in debating you. Your specific points might be right, but the overall conclusion requires such an uncharitable and selective reading of the text that it really calls your motives into question.

Well thats true debate with everybody aint it. Everybody sees what they want to see. You believe you see a touching scene, I see saccharine sentiment.

Thats the nature of human beings to interpret things different. It does not make me an anomaly of pure stubborn ignorance. Its just as frustrating for me, who believes that you are needlessly stubborn in donning rose tinted glasses in order to see the whole story as fantastic as you believe it to be. But It requires patience and time in order to convince anybody.

I'm... not sure how much more explicit these dark evils could be made without actually earning an 18s rating? Not seeing much of a concrete argument otherwise.

Like right this here for me was frustrating. I make a point how "Theoretical evils in the background or in the past history of the show" don't excite me for a show anymore because doing that is easy, and if your not going to do it in the open then don't bring it up to earn your deepness cred. That it is not a worthy talking point because it is NOT part of the show. "How many Shows have "Insert Thing here" in them?" and how saucy and raunchy it makes it for a child's show. Well if it ISN'T part of the show then the show isn't saucy and raunchy!

You ignored my point that if your not gonna do it, don't bring it up; in order to ignore the point of my argument.

I was going to let this drop, but really? Steven is literally falling asleep mid-sentence in the effort to keep searching before Garnet takes him home. Your argument is invalid.

I will give you that point. I let my frustration over all the other Stuff Steven shows a lack of empathy or curiosity towards cloud the one time when he did show a real empathy in the method I recommended. I mean the episode is full of a ton of other flaws in any case. No need for me to invent them.

[Lacuna Caster]

Thats the nature of human beings to interpret things different. It does not make me an anomaly of pure stubborn ignorance. Its just as frustrating for me, who believes that you are needlessly stubborn in donning rose tinted glasses in order to see the whole story as fantastic as you believe it to be.

Given that I've been regularly nit-picking various aspects of the show for my amusement, I don't think I have particularly rose-tinted glasses. But it is exactly that: Nit-picking for amusement's sake. I'm not trying to actively convince people the show sucks, because I actually think it's great. (I don't pay this much attention to things otherwise.)

So... does this amuse you?

[Rater202]

Scowling, could it be argued that you, are, in fact, donning jade colored glasses?

[Fralex]

@Scowling Dragon
@Jayngfet

Ugh, you're both back? Why? This is just a cheap tactic to make WEAK posters STRONGER! Quit embarrassing yourselves! I've seen what you really are.

OK wait originally this was just a dumb joke I was gonna make, but now I actually want to figure out what would happen if the two of you fused and sang a song.

Also:

gemtlemen forever

Just so we're absolutely clear, I feel I should point out that the word "Gemtlemen" was actually made up as a hoax by people who wanted to convince the SU fandom that it was under attack by Bronies or something. I dunno, it was a really stupid and needless bit a drama. To the best of my knowledge, no fan of the show actually calls themself anything, especially that.

[Sigh]

There is, but don't use it because its dumb why do you even have to shape your identity around a tv show cant we just enjoy things

Humans by their very nature are tribalistic and seek to categorize people into groups to make it easier to understand the world around them, it's pretty basic psychology.

[Fralex]

Humans by their very nature are tribalistic and seek to categorize people into groups to make it easier to understand the world around them, it's pretty basic psychology.

But we don't have to be like that! For to be human is to be more than human, to rise above our base instincts!

[Scowling Dragon]

Humans by their very nature are tribalistic and seek to categorize people into groups to make it easier to understand the world around them, it's pretty basic psychology.

Right, but why name yourself in degrading and stupid sounding names? Isn't the word Fan good enough?

@Scowling Dragon
@Jayngfet

Ugh, you're both back? Why? This is just a cheap tactic to make WEAK posters STRONGER! Quit embarrassing yourselves! I've seen what you really are.

OK wait originally this was just a dumb joke I was gonna make, but now I actually want to figure out what would happen if the two of you fused and sang a song.

Pure Evil Maybe? This is a topic worth discussing more. What would our theme music be?

Given that I've been regularly nit-picking various aspects of the show for my amusement, I don't think I have particularly rose-tinted glasses. But it is exactly that: Nit-picking for amusement's sake. I'm not trying to actively convince people the show sucks, because I actually think it's great. (I don't pay this much attention to things otherwise.)

Im not trying to convince anyone that they cannot like the show. Taste is subjective. Im debating elements within the show and how they work and their effectiveness for the show. So You can like SU all you want, but don't tell me that status quo is a great way to generate drama.

[Sigh]

But we don't have to be like that! For to be human is to be more than human, to rise above our base instincts!

Nonsense, anyone with a basic knowledge of knowledge of biology-informed behaviors will tell you that just about everything you do is done with the intention of satisfying some base urge we all have, even if the activity you're doing is more complex than any activity you'd find in nature. We make ourselves more attractive with certain features or traits (some social, some biologically pre-programmed) in order to draw others to us, we seek thrills in order to get our blood pumping, we seek financial stability in order to reduce stress and curb our potential for loss, we seek to go to the stars (eventually) in order to expand the reach of our species. All of these behaviors can be linked to the same basic primal urges or methods of thinking that you'd find in someone a hundred years ago, even a thousand, all the way to the first person.

[Jayngfet]

Pure Evil Maybe? This is a topic worth discussing more. What would our theme music be?

I dunno, but I'm picturing a cello. Mainly because it's huge and classy, as far as these things go it's the opposite of a ukelele.

Im not trying to convince anyone that they cannot like the show. Taste is subjective. Im debating elements within the show and how they work and their effectiveness for the show. So You can like SU all you want, but don't tell me that status quo is a great way to generate drama.

...and this brings me to a point I really want to make.

This morning when checking the forum on my phone I wound up transported dozens of pages back and the feeling of the thread, even if you remove me from the equation, has changed. Partly because most of the people who were posting had long since abandoned the thread by that point, but partly because anyone left got ultra defensive.

I mean hell, I was basically giving the show the benefit of the doubt for the vast majority of season 1 and a lot more people were critical, and that was ok.

Now there's what, four, five people here and anything against the show suddenly becomes blasphemy as it can do no wrong(Except for cosmetic wrongs, which get mentioned but are obviously posted with the intention that they're so minor they "don't count".), which is indicative of the direction the show and the network have gone down.

Cartoon Network as a whole, and Steven Universe specifically, is in the ratings toilet. Just like a whole lot of people are leaving the thread, ratings are like half what they were during that period in general. Some people claim online viewership makes it up, but there's no stated indication elsewhere of that. To be clear it's not a problem with the show specificly, since shows that started in better places fell harder in the same timeframe, but it's a pretty good indication of what's "wrong" with modern animation. For a whole lot of series, especially on cartoon network, it feels like they're spending their time marketing to adults who watch kids shows, instead of marketing to kids.

At this point, I'm starting to go off on a tangent, but I thought it was food for thought. Mainly because while nobody here is basing their identity on a show, it's an argument I see elsewhere that's always been really stupid, and it's indicative of the direction the shows fanbase has been going in as a whole. The entire show seems to be less about what makes kids go "that's cool!" and more about what makes adults go "that's cool!".

To clarify(re-clarify?), this hasn't really got anything to do with previous arguments, I just thought it was worth pointing out as an incredibly broad point.

[eggynack]

Well, personally, the reason I defend the show more vociferously now is because I'm more into it. When the show started, it was near the middle or bottom of the list of animated shows I watch, and especially the list of shows I watch in general. There were some amazing episodes then, but the experience as a whole was inconsistent relative to the show later on. Then a few things happened in tandem. First, the quality of surrounding shows dropped quite a bit. Korra ended, and it ended well, and Adventure Time started to do a bit worse without Rebecca Sugar handling the really emotionally resonant stuff, as well as the songs.

Second, the quality of Steven Universe jumped up quite a bit, both in terms of the individual episodes, and in terms of an underlying mission statement. The introduction of Mirror Gem and Ocean Gem opened up the universe a lot, and it created some guiding parameters for the show's direction. I don't think that stuff is the point of the show, but having an underlying arc does a good job of giving focus. And, of course, that was where Steven started becoming more effective. If the second season is about Steven being a member of the team, then the second half of season one is about him getting closer to that point, by starting to figure out his past, and his abilities, and his role.

As I said, the episodes in the first half of season one were great, with such classics as Lars and the Cool Kids, Bubble Buddies, Steven the Sword fighter, and Coach Steven, but the second half surpassed it in a lot of ways. Or, to be more accurate, none of the episodes from the first half got as close to that deep well of sadness that underlies Steven Universe. Those episodes I mentioned, they're all sad at least momentarily, but they're a drop in the bucked compared to On the Road or Rose's Scabbard. They started connecting with something that they'd only sometimes touched on before, in scattered moments, which is that amazing emotional resonance that typified the best episodes of Adventure Time. It's not just sadness either, because neither does anything really reach the highs of something like Alone Together.

The result of all that is a show that's in the top couple of shows I'm watching overall. It's on about the same level as Rick and Morty and Better Call Saul, and just about everything else is below it. And I watch a pretty good amount of TV. Maybe the ratings don't reflect that, though it looks like they've on the whole been hovering around 1.5 to 2.5 for most of its run, perhaps dropping to something like 1.5 to 2.0 recently, but I can't say it has much to do with my presence. I've been watching the show since pretty much the beginning, and thought it was at least very good from the opening theme song on.

[Ibrinar]

As someone fairly new to this thread can I assume that it only consist of pages upon pages of people replying to Jayngfet in the downtime between new episodes?

[eggynack]

As someone fairly new to this thread can I assume that it only consist of pages upon pages of people replying to Jayngfet in the downtime between new episodes?

Well, it's also been people replying to Jayngfet when episodes are airing, typically on the topic of the new episodes, butwhen that happens we sometimes talk about the episode in a manner separate from that criticism. But yeah, that's mostly it.

[Jayngfet]

None of that is anything I'm actually going to argue with you over. I mean to be blunt as I said even with ratings degradation it's still consistently a winner for the network. My problem is what that means, in the grand scheme of things. As far as I see it, SU went from like a 5/10 to like a seven. Adventure time took a nosedive down to like, 3 or 4 over the years. Uncle Grandpa is never more than a six. Most of the other shows are in that range so if they ever consistently beat what this one has become, it's never decisively or by much. In a world of blind men, the one eyed is king. To loop back to the previous spat, I wouldn't really slot it above a C- on average and it's highs are mostly just B's. But when so many other shows can't even get a C- more than once in a hundred episodes, just passing is enough to look good.

My standards, I realize, are far harsher than most, but I stick by them. But when the only thing we can agree on regarding The Test is that an animation error of all things makes a result ambiguous, I can't give it much technical skill. Likewise writing wise I have a good idea of what Sugar and co. wanted to achieve, and while they got there it was somewhat clumsy. The sound work is top notch, but that just kind of highlights how a lot of the more elegant stuff doesn't really flow with the chunky thick line style they replaced the pilot with. Some of that is just the nature of the beast, but even then I'm not really going to give them top marks when other shows have handled similar problems more elegantly in the past.

[eggynack]

Can't begrudge you that, but I definitely have it ranked in the consistent A to B range, with only a few things falling below that. As for The Test, it's not my favorite episode, and the earlier parts of it are a part of that, but the end part is pretty cool. That one probably falls at around a low B for me. I don't mean these things purely in a Cartoon Network context either. My ratings don't care all that much about the source, and I tend to get a bit annoyed when folks try to defend the quality of a thing behind its nature as a kid's show.

[Jayngfet]

Can't begrudge you that, but I definitely have it ranked in the consistent A to B range, with only a few things falling below that. As for The Test, it's not my favorite episode, and the earlier parts of it are a part of that, but the end part is pretty cool. That one probably falls at around a low B for me. I don't mean these things purely in a Cartoon Network context either. My ratings don't care all that much about the source, and I tend to get a bit annoyed when folks try to defend the quality of a thing behind its nature as a kid's show.

Then we've found common ground. I can't really fault you for your own ratings when I already said mine would be harsher by default. I'm a hard person to please outside of specific moments(and remember, I was right there with you and against Scowling Dragon in the first Stevenbomb).

As for official ratings, I'm more or less of the opinion that there's usually something there worth examining. They don't always correlate to quality but they show what an audience is and isn't watching for some reason or another.

[Coidzor]

Allot of the frustration comes from feeling like the second your opinion changes, you are no longer wanted and "Prob just a troll!"

No, that sort of thing is dependent upon what you're saying and how you're saying it.

[Rater202]

This is the gem cluster featured on the Cluster.

Can anyone figure out the component gems?

[Jayngfet]

This is the gem cluster featured on the Cluster.

Can anyone figure out the component gems?

I'd peg the green one as emerald, since it's in the same color range.

The round one is a really difficult one to peg because it's round and blue, but Lapis Lazuli is always the first round blue stone to come to mind and is kind of already in use. It's a bit too purple for Turquoise, because that's kind of a relativley specific color, obviously. Someone who does a bit more digging can probably go through the list of round, opaque blue stones used as gems and find whatever's left with relative ease if they know how to look. My best guess is Moonstone, because it kind of matches the color and shade though.

The olive green one I have no idea, I can't even tell if it's one gem, multiple, or one gem that was cracked into three. But given there's only four silouettes it's probably one to three, but no idea if it's supposed to be like that or just a bunch of bits wedged together.

Solid blue obviously can't be Lapis Lazuli or Sapphire, the two most prominent blue stones. It's obviously one that's translucent with facets but that doesn't really do much for me to make an educated guess. I'd guess that and maybe olive green are just gems that come in multiple colors.

As a general reference all of the birth stones are taken, as with diamonds, jasper peridot, tourmaline, watermelon tourmaline, and probably a couple others I'm forgetting. I've been going by the assumption that Moss Agate is the Centipeedle since it's basically the only well known gem to have that specific set of characteristics. But I do animation, not Gemology, and this is just me checking relevant databases until I find something close.

Though for some reason I can't help but feel I'm repeating guesses. I may have done this offsite on the air date.

[Maryring]

The faceted blue could probably be Aquamarine. Aquamarine covers a large range of blues after all.

More disturbingly, I figured the dullish green to be Jade. Apparently, "Green Jade is a crystal of love. It is supportive of new love, and increases trustworthiness and fidelity" which adds a further sense of perversion to the cluster and its meaning.

[Lacuna Caster]

The sound work is top notch, but that just kind of highlights how a lot of the more elegant stuff doesn't really flow with the chunky thick line style they replaced the pilot with. Some of that is just the nature of the beast, but even then I'm not really going to give them top marks when other shows have handled similar problems more elegantly in the past.

I was rather fond of the character designs from the pilot, I'd have to say. (On the other hand, the show's facial expressions are kind of priceless, so maybe those wouldn't translate as well?)

Well, personally, the reason I defend the show more vociferously now is because I'm more into it. When the show started, it was near the middle or bottom of the list of animated shows I watch, and especially the list of shows I watch in general. There were some amazing episodes then, but the experience as a whole was inconsistent relative to the show later on. Then a few things happened in tandem. First, the quality of surrounding shows dropped quite a bit. Korra ended, and it ended well, and Adventure Time started to do a bit worse without Rebecca Sugar handling the really emotionally resonant stuff, as well as the songs.

Second, the quality of Steven Universe jumped up quite a bit, both in terms of the individual episodes, and in terms of an underlying mission statement. The introduction of Mirror Gem and Ocean Gem opened up the universe a lot, and it created some guiding parameters for the show's direction. I don't think that stuff is the point of the show, but having an underlying arc does a good job of giving focus. And, of course, that was where Steven started becoming more effective. If the second season is about Steven being a member of the team, then the second half of season one is about him getting closer to that point, by starting to figure out his past, and his abilities, and his role.

As I said, the episodes in the first half of season one were great, with such classics as Lars and the Cool Kids, Bubble Buddies, Steven the Sword fighter, and Coach Steven, but the second half surpassed it in a lot of ways. Or, to be more accurate, none of the episodes from the first half got as close to that deep well of sadness that underlies Steven Universe. Those episodes I mentioned, they're all sad at least momentarily, but they're a drop in the bucked compared to On the Road or Rose's Scabbard. They started connecting with something that they'd only sometimes touched on before, in scattered moments, which is that amazing emotional resonance that typified the best episodes of Adventure Time. It's not just sadness either, because neither does anything really reach the highs of something like Alone Together.

I think that does a good job of articulating what I've been trying to get across, so thank you for that. (I'd just add that I really love how well the show handles genre pastiche like li'l butler, the dogcopter intro, the donut video, crying breakfast friends or the sitcom dream sequence. For some reason those just crack me up.)

The first dozen episodes of the show were 'harmless, charming and sporadically affecting' in my book. Whereas the run of the last dozen is something I'd describe as 'Rainbow Brite meets Neon Genesis Evangelion in the best way'.