Best Comic to Showcase OotS's Art Style

[notthephonz]

The other day I mentioned to a friend (who has D&D experience but has never read The Order of the Stick) that The Order of the Stick is created using "a high-end vector-based graphics program." His response was that that sounds like overkill for a stick figure comic. I want to show him a comic that showcases an excellent usage of what can be communicated with stick figures in Rich Burlew's art style--bonus points if it's one that is readily accessible to someone unfamiliar with the story. The first one that came to my mind was #764: Small Talk, but I'm wondering if anyone on the forum has any other recommendations.

(As a side note, what is the proper term for each numbered unit of The Order of the Stick? "Comic" sounds like it's referring to the entire story, but "strip" and "page" don't really sound right either.)

[Mrc.]

Holy Word.

[Mordae]

Happy Ending is good, too.

[Passer-by]

In this one there are some of the best panels Rich has ever drawn. 919 - I went down, down, down

[Mrc.]

Another thing to consider is how much will be spoiled. That's why I didn't suggest this despite it being my favourite comic and having some decent art. Lot's of the more recent comics have showcased Rich's skill, but you might want to warn your friend that it doesn't exactly start out all that good art-wise......

[ChristianSt]

I think The Battle of Azure City contains some strips really showcasing what can be communicated with the art style.

I think especially highlighting that is 421/422/450/452/463 or some of the strips following shorty after it, like 478 or 484.

Though there are enough comics that are outside this arc showcasing some awesome use of the art, like 639 or 841.

Some nice ones I just stumbled on are also in the Cliffport arc: 339/341/352/357

Or the scenes other have posted here. But as others have said you you might want to think about which strips to showcase. I personally wouldn't use Familicide or Lunchtime, though most of the Battle of Azure City strips should work nicely. And the CPPD introduction should be perfectly for someone who is not familiar with OotS (since it contains virtually no old information other than a reference to the Linear Guild, which is not relevant for the plot of the strip).


(As to the nomenclature of single comics, I think the one that makes by far the most sense is strips. Rich says "New comic is up" every time there is a new one, but he uses the term strip during the book commentary. I would stick to the one which "sounds" best to you, though I would say page is just wrong, since there isn't a page-to-strip relation: some strips have multiple pages.)

[KillianHawkeye]

The other day I mentioned to a friend (who has D&D experience but has never read The Order of the Stick) that The Order of the Stick is created using "a high-end vector-based graphics program." His response was that that sounds like overkill for a stick figure comic.

I'm not really certain your friend's assertion actually requires a refutation, since line art is exactly the sort thing that Adobe Illustrator and other vector-based graphics programs do best. You certainly wouldn't want to make a comic like this using MS Paint or even high-end pixel-based software like Photoshop. At least, not if you care about the quality of your product at all.

All your friend really did is prove that he has no idea what he is talking about.

[Everyl]

If spoilers are a concern, I'm going to agree with Mrc. that the Holy Word comic is a solid choice. It's late enough on that Rich is really using his artistic skills, has a good range of special effects and character expressions, and about all it spoils is "adventurers fight in a trap-filled dungeon," which isn't really a spoiler in a D&D-based comic.

[blunk]

In this one there are some of the best panels Rich has ever drawn. 919 - I went down, down, down

Excellent choice graphically. It's not self-contained, though...

Edit: I think this one has a nice survey of art techniques and stands on its own reasonably well:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html

[Silferdrake]

The comic is quite gorgeous in it's simplicity. But some of the later strips has really shown how much Rich has perfected his art style over the years. Here are two that both feature a lot of different angles and play with depth: Comic 922 and comic 841.

And if you want to show what the style is really capable of there's always the wallpapers and the calendar.

[Finagle]

I wouldn't call Adobe Illustrator "a high-end vector-based graphics program." I'd call it "an industry standard." Everyone uses it, for everything. Advertisements, greeting cards, you name it AI makes it. It's as ubiquitous as Photoshop.

[factotum]

I wouldn't call Adobe Illustrator "a high-end vector-based graphics program." I'd call it "an industry standard." Everyone uses it, for everything. Advertisements, greeting cards, you name it AI makes it. It's as ubiquitous as Photoshop.

Does any of that stop it being high-end? For that matter, would you not class Photoshop as a high-end image manipulation tool, just because it's ubiquitous? Now, if we were talking about video editing software (where the high-end stuff is *way* beyond the more common Adobe Premiere) I'd see your point.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, the fact that Adobe has a near-monopoly on imaging software doesn't mean that the software which costs hundreds of dollars isn't "high end." It is. It absolutely is. Adobe releases a new version practically every year because they keep updating it and improving it with new features. THAT is what makes it high end. The reason it is an industry standard is because Adobe has the biggest name and the biggest game in town.

[notthephonz]

Thanks for your suggestions, everyone! It's odd...sometimes the artistry of some of the later comics doesn't stand out as much because the quality has been constantly improving over the years. It's going to be really tough to choose. (Of course, people are free to continue offering suggestions.)

As to the nomenclature of single comics, I think the one that makes by far the most sense is strips. Rich says "New comic is up" every time there is a new one, but he uses the term strip during the book commentary. I would stick to the one which "sounds" best to you, though I would say page is just wrong, since there isn't a page-to-strip relation: some strips have multiple pages.

Yeah, I figure it's just one of those things that doesn't have a real answer, like what pronoun you use to refer to Vaarsuvius.

I'm not really certain your friend's assertion actually requires a refutation, since line art is exactly the sort thing that Adobe Illustrator and other vector-based graphics programs do best. You certainly wouldn't want to make a comic like this using MS Paint or even high-end pixel-based software like Photoshop. At least, not if you care about the quality of your product at all.

All your friend really did is prove that he has no idea what he is talking about.

Well, it's not like we were having a formal debate about the quality of the comic or anything; it was just a comment made in passing (I can't even remember the context in which it came up). I think the issue is probably that he's picturing something more like xkcd.

And if you want to show what the style is really capable of there's always the wallpapers and the calendar.

I'm thinking this option might be best because there's very little chance of spoilers or non-accessibility. Showing one of the wallpapers or comics would settle the art issue quite nicely, but probably wouldn't be as good at getting him hooked on the comic. I was thinking about buying him one of the books for his upcoming birthday, though...

I wouldn't call Adobe Illustrator "a high-end vector-based graphics program." I'd call it "an industry standard." Everyone uses it, for everything. Advertisements, greeting cards, you name it AI makes it. It's as ubiquitous as Photoshop.

That's the phrase Burlew uses to describe it in the FAQ, which is why I mentioned that phrase to my friend in the first place.

[Finagle]

Does any of that stop it being high-end? For that matter, would you not class Photoshop as a high-end image manipulation tool, just because it's ubiquitous? Now, if we were talking about video editing software (where the high-end stuff is *way* beyond the more common Adobe Premiere) I'd see your point.

Well, I just think my characterization is more accurate. "High-end" makes it sound exotic or unobtainable, when in fact it's just another part of the Adobe Suite. Everyone has it, it's the most pirated software in the world. Even when you get serious and finally buy it, it's still only a few hundred bucks.

What would "a low-end vector-based graphics program" be? CorelDraw? Not really. MS-Paint? Not vector-based, really. Some no-name shareware? There's not much point in using anything but Adobe Illustrator.

[factotum]

What would "a low-end vector-based graphics program" be? CorelDraw? Not really. MS-Paint? Not vector-based, really. Some no-name shareware? There's not much point in using anything but Adobe Illustrator.

Let me turn that question around, then: what vector graphics package is higher end than Illustrator? There are unquestionably cheaper alternatives (Corel Draw, as you mentioned, and Inkscape), so just on that basis alone Illustrator isn't low-end; therefore, for your point to be true, there has to be some higher-end vector graphics program than Illustrator.

[blunk]

What would "a low-end vector-based graphics program" be?

An analog projector and a #2 pencil

[KillianHawkeye]

An analog projector and a #2 pencil

Analog art is by definition not vector-based.

[blunk]

Analog art is by definition not vector-based.

Is it the lack of a computer that bothers you? WP backs you up.

I maybe could've gotten away with "a French curve and a #2 pencil" because obviously I'm omitting the computer as a joke, but the curve is still arguably based on mathematical expressions, so it's just one thing wrong instead of two.

Oh well, maybe next time.

[kicks dead horse again]

[blunk]

Analog art is by definition not vector-based.

PS. I'd call an electron gun sweeping smoothly along a surface without an intervening diffraction grating "analog", which is why I asked, "do you mean without a computer?"

*thump, thump, THUMP*

[KillianHawkeye]

Is it the lack of a computer that bothers you?

No, it's the fact of how the information is stored, not how it is created. Vector art is stored as mathematical data which is then rendered every time you view the image. Raster (or bitmap) art stores information according to its location.

Analog art, whether it's created with pencil, pen, paint, or whatever, is simply putting colors or lines onto a particular part of paper or canvas. You could cut a painting into squares and put them in a different order without changing the information stored on each piece. Whereas slicing up a vector-based art file would force changes to the underlying mathematical equations.

In other words, it doesn't matter if you have a ruler or a bezier curve, storing any image in a physical medium cannot, by definition, be stored in a vector format. Even the comics that we read on this web site are not vector-based files, because they must be converted into bitmaps before being shown to us. The source materials are vector-based, but the end product is not.

[blunk]

No, it's the fact of how the information is stored, not how it is created. Vector art is stored as mathematical data which is then rendered every time you view the image. Raster (or bitmap) art stores information according to its location.

Analog art, whether it's created with pencil, pen, paint, or whatever, is simply putting colors or lines onto a particular part of paper or canvas. You could cut a painting into squares and put them in a different order without changing the information stored on each piece. Whereas slicing up a vector-based art file would force changes to the underlying mathematical equations.

In other words, it doesn't matter if you have a ruler or a bezier curve, storing any image in a physical medium cannot, by definition, be stored in a vector format. Even the comics that we read on this web site are not vector-based files, because they must be converted into bitmaps before being shown to us. The source materials are vector-based, but the end product is not.

Cool, thanks for the terminology information. I implement bezier curves in my projects from time to time, but I never talk about them.

[blunk]

Analog art is by definition not vector-based.

It's "analog" that threw me. "Analog" just means "non-quantized", and using it in "analog art" didn't immediately suggest what you intended it to.

Vector graphics are represented as vectors, but they're "unpacked" into analog curves before being quantized into raster graphics (and if you're using a vector display, they're *never* quantized). So you can see why my first thought was, "but vector graphics *are* analog!"

We need a better term for "classical" art.

[DaggerPen]

Something artistically stunning that will also get him hooked on the strip is a bit of a tall order - the Gaseous Form effect in 874 was really cool, and it's a cool enough battle bit to stand on its own, but I can't think of any strip that by itself would get him hooked on the comic - the best ones largely rely on previous knowledge. I suppose I am partial to life-taking, baby-making machine, which I have linked in isolation before because it's amazing, but that's not really an example of the art.

I'd say you're better off showing off some of the calendar illustrations or wallpapers, and then linking to your favorite oneshot strip to try to get him hooked.

[Also, just as a friendly heads-up, you can respond to multiple posts in one reply by selecting the quotation mark with the plus sign by it for each post you want to respond to. They'll all be waiting for you when you go to "Post Reply".]

EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, Malack's death might be a good balance, if you don't mind spoiling that bit.

[blunk]

[Also, just as a friendly heads-up, you can respond to multiple posts in one reply by selecting the quotation mark with the plus sign by it for each post you want to respond to. They'll all be waiting for you when you go to "Post Reply".]

Thanks. In the latter case I thought an edit might be missed... but even when I *do* intentionally multi-reply, I've been doing it the hard way.

ETA: but also, having owned a lot of bug reports, I've acquired a knee-jerk "ONE ISSUE PER REPORT [post]" tendency

[KillianHawkeye]

It's "analog" that threw me. "Analog" just means "non-quantized", and using it in "analog art" didn't immediately suggest what you intended it to.

You were the first one to use the word analog.

An analog projector and a #2 pencil

I was using it in the "not digital" sense of the word. Meaning basically anything that exists outside of computers, in the real world. I'm honestly not sure what word would be better to compare hand-drawn art to digital art, but you're the one who brought up pencils and overhead projectors.

[notthephonz]

No, it's the fact of how the information is stored, not how it is created. Vector art is stored as mathematical data which is then rendered every time you view the image. Raster (or bitmap) art stores information according to its location.

Thanks for clearing that up! I think I'd heard something like this before; I'll try not to forget it this time.

You know, maybe the phrase is being parsed wrong. Maybe Burlew meant that it's "a high-end graphics program which is vector-based" rather than "a vector-based graphics program which is high-end." The original context was to explain why such a program would be used to create a stick figure comic, after all.

Something artistically stunning that will also get him hooked on the strip is a bit of a tall order - I'd say you're better off showing off some of the calendar illustrations or wallpapers, and then linking to your favorite oneshot strip to try to get him hooked.

Yeah, it's definitely a tall order. But, you know, I figured the odds were good that someone on the forum would be able to come up with an idea that was at least better than mine. I was also genuinely curious what people might come up with.

When mention of The Order of the Stick first came up, my friend said something to the effect of, "Oh, that's like trying to catch up with Girl Genius." I certainly can't fault him for that--I myself haven't worked up the will to start reading Girl Genius despite its having been recommended to me a few times. Although, if I recall correctly, it has a "Girl Genius 101" section for new readers, doesn't it? The Order of the Stick doesn't really have anything comparable, to my knowledge.

[Nimrod's Son]

For what it's worth, the example Rich himself gave of a strip that showcases how much the art has improved since the early days was #823.

[Mrc.]

Hmm. That isn't a bad one at all now that I think about it, especially the rift. But again, if the guy is likely to read the rest of the strips it's probably best not to show the destruction of Azure city, otherwise well found sir!

[factotum]

When mention of The Order of the Stick first came up, my friend said something to the effect of, "Oh, that's like trying to catch up with Girl Genius." I certainly can't fault him for that--I myself haven't worked up the will to start reading Girl Genius despite its having been recommended to me a few times.

It's not quite comparable--Girl Genius has been posting three strips a week largely uninterrupted since 2002, so must be getting up for 2000 strips by now. OotS only has half that so far, so it's much easier!