Relationship Woes and Advice 25: Now with extra Valentine

[Sholos]

If she's seeing someone else, it makes it less likely to be received well, I think.

Really, this is all about you. There's nothing morally wrong with concealing your attraction to somebody (in itself), especially if you were friends beforehand. These things are frustrating, but they happen. My advice would be just to deal with it on your own without getting her involved. What's actually the point in telling her? It might make you feel less guilty, but it'll make her more uncomfortable, and might well ruin the friendship. There's not going to be a positive outcome, because she's always seeing someone else, so what's the point?

It seems to me like this is one of those situations where a problem shared is a problem shared. Sure, it sucks for you, but that's not her fault.

I had pretty much the exact same situation going on and this is basically the best advice I could have come up with. The friend I have a crush on is now married to a guy that I hate and so I'm probably never going to see her again and the friendship is going to die, but damn if it doesn't hurt, especially considering she was one of the extremely few friends I actually have because I'm a terrible person and can't make friends to save my life.

[HalfTangible]

No, they don't. I know that feeling. Like a knife right through the chest. It sucks. But it WILL get better. It might take a while. It might take a long time--but eventually it won't hurt so much. I know it sounds cliche, but that's all I really know to say. Just try to move on, even if it seems hard, and eventually you will.

I know... I know. I was venting. I was sorry to dump this all on you guys primarily because there was nothing y'all could say that would help. I'll just go on as I always have, and... well, maybe I'll get over her.

Does it matter that your little brother thinks you're boring? If you do things that are interesting to you, does it make a difference whether he or anyone else thinks it is? And it really doesn't follow that, because your little brother thinks you're boring, nobody cares. Frankly, it doesn't matter one damn bit what anyone else thinks about you or what you do--if they think you're a boring person, that is their loss, not yours. There are seven BILLION people on this world. I cannot imagine that you are boring to every one of them, that not one of them would find you interesting--or find reason to care about you.

No, it doesn't, because he doesn't know what the **** he's talking about and has successfully turned our family vacation into a private party for him and his friends so the little selfish bastard can frankly go suck the tires on my truck for all I care.

But it still hurts to hear. Especially since he's almost right.

[Jallorn]

I know... I know. I was venting. I was sorry to dump this all on you guys primarily because there was nothing y'all could say that would help. I'll just go on as I always have, and... well, maybe I'll get over her.

Well, I for one have not minded being merely a sounding board for complaints for a long time. That is, I hope sharing helped at least a little.

[Coidzor]

You spend years telling yourself every reason in the book (and some of them are good reasons) why a relationship with someone will never work out. You tell yourself over and over that you swore to celibacy and don't want a relationship, that she'd be happier with someone else anyway, that you only see her one week out of the year, that what you're feeling is infatuation, not love, despite your gut's protestations to the contrary.

You promise yourself to hold no regrets, and to say nothing. A relationship with her is a terrible idea, it'll end terribly either way and this way no one else is dragged down with you. It'll all be better this way. You couldn't make her happy.

And then she introduces her boyfriend.

And all the good reasons in the universe don't stop it from hurting.

Maybe it's time to question whether they're actually all that good, in fact. If you really have to remind yourself, then there's no point to going against your nature if the point of the exercise is to satisfy yourself and you can't get no satisfaction from it.

Besides, you're young, yet. Better to take your measure of sanitized folly now than to deny yourself the wisdom of experience later.

... Oh, and you're apparently 'matthew's brother' to pretty much the entire ****ing planet now. So yay. You get to live in the shadow of your younger brother who told you to your face that you never want to do anything fun, laughed about it and refused to elaborate. So you get to be a boring **** who no one cares about.

Brothers are like that. IIRC, the culturally appropriate solution is, depending upon age, either to show him up by being more awesome than he is or giving him a swirly because you're his big brother and the natural order of the universe hinges upon him never forgetting that. Sometimes both.

At any rate, it sounds like you need some new hobbies and new people to get you out of the house.

*sigh*

Your pain isn't important. Suffer in silence...
... There's nothing to say.

Stoicism isn't particularly flattering on a man until he's in his mid-twenties or early-thirties. And repression just tends to lead to more issues down the line than acknowledging that something is causing trouble and addressing it as much as possible.

Usually when people say "there's nothing to say," really there's plenty that needs to be said, I've found.

So as you may have gathered it's been a terrible day.

I'm sorry to burden you all with this.

I'm sorry that your day was so terrible, but you really haven't burdened us with anything.

[Karoht]

@HalfTangible
1-I get the feeling that both of these events have more story behind them. Can we get the full story on both, or are you just not feeling up to that right now? Particularly, the full story involving events with your brother.
2-Have you considered doing something fun to show him up? I mean, at worst, you have fun doing something you enjoy, at best you solve the problem. You don't have to go outside of your comfort zone or anything (though that might be an idea too), in fact being yourself and doing something for you would probably be for the best.

Without knowing the full context of the situation, my completely absurd situation is as follows:
I say a full scale pranking war is in order. Show him what you're idea of fun can do to him. Nothing says brotherly love like a pranking war.

[HalfTangible]

@HalfTangible
1-I get the feeling that both of these events have more story behind them. Can we get the full story on both, or are you just not feeling up to that right now? Particularly, the full story involving events with your brother.
2-Have you considered doing something fun to show him up? I mean, at worst, you have fun doing something you enjoy, at best you solve the problem. You don't have to go outside of your comfort zone or anything (though that might be an idea too), in fact being yourself and doing something for you would probably be for the best.

Without knowing the full context of the situation, my completely absurd situation is as follows:
I say a full scale pranking war is in order. Show him what you're idea of fun can do to him. Nothing says brotherly love like a pranking war.

I don't really think there's much to tell for my brother. He made it as an offhand comment, no connection to anything, really, and that's what's so painful about it. It'd be one thing if he screamed it aloud and angrily in response to something I said or did - I could shrug it off, a 'he's upset, it'll pass' sorta thing. But you don't say things like that perfectly calm unless you either mean it or just misspeak.

Mostly there's just a lot of **** that's built up over the years with my family. I've tried bringing things up to them at the time, but they brush off anything I say as a joke unless I start cursing, at which point I'm acting like a spoiled whiny brat and not worth listening to. Which is especially infuriating, as when I make jokes in poor taste they're treated like I completely meant them and not just as a bad joke.

Fat jokes can fly at me all they like (even when they're untrue - I'm out of shape, but relatively skinny) but you make one joke about your dad's beer belly and suddenly you're Satan.

I'm... not really even sure where to begin on the girl. And not comfortable talking about it either.

Maybe it's time to question whether they're actually all that good, in fact. If you really have to remind yourself, then there's no point to going against your nature if the point of the exercise is to satisfy yourself and you can't get no satisfaction from it.

I already have and come to the conclusion that yes, they are good reasons. For starters, I only see this person one week out of the year, if I'm lucky, and we both spend most of our time doing things that keep us from speaking. That's not exactly the basis for a healthy relationship.

Besides, you're young, yet. Better to take your measure of sanitized folly now than to deny yourself the wisdom of experience later.

Only in matters I want to be experienced in. I did say I was celibate through choice, right?

Brothers are like that. IIRC, the culturally appropriate solution is, depending upon age, either to show him up by being more awesome than he is or giving him a swirly because you're his big brother and the natural order of the universe hinges upon him never forgetting that. Sometimes both.

At any rate, it sounds like you need some new hobbies and new people to get you out of the house.

No. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Thing is, we're both adults now, and he's stronger than me. Much better at remaining in control of himself too.

And the things I love are far more fragile than anything he cares about.

Stoicism isn't particularly flattering on a man until he's in his mid-twenties or early-thirties. And repression just tends to lead to more issues down the line than acknowledging that something is causing trouble and addressing it as much as possible.

You are operating under the assumption that I care about being "flattering."

Usually when people say "there's nothing to say," really there's plenty that needs to be said, I've found.

"I hate the world and want to watch it burn" is not exactly something that needs to be said. "I want to be alone" has never worked. I know that "I love you" is incorrect and would just hurt her or create a false impression and I don't want that. "I'm sick of having your friends butt in on the family vacation" is not going to do anything. "I don't want to come to [the lodge] anymore" is an outright lie.

"My only friends have never seen my face" is just whining and won't help anything.

I could bitch some more about how modern social paradigms on relationships (both current and emerging) disgust me to my core, but what would the point of that be?

[Aedilred]

You are operating under the assumption that I care about being "flattering."

You clearly care how people treat you, though. Making yourself more likeable is generally a good way to improve that (i.e. cutting down on unflattering behaviour).

[Karoht]

I'm... not really even sure where to begin on the girl. And not comfortable talking about it either.

Fair. Moving on.

I don't really think there's much to tell for my brother. He made it as an offhand comment, no connection to anything, really, and that's what's so painful about it. It'd be one thing if he screamed it aloud and angrily in response to something I said or did - I could shrug it off, a 'he's upset, it'll pass' sorta thing. But you don't say things like that perfectly calm unless you either mean it or just misspeak.

Mostly there's just a lot of **** that's built up over the years with my family. I've tried bringing things up to them at the time, but they brush off anything I say as a joke unless I start cursing, at which point I'm acting like a spoiled whiny brat and not worth listening to. Which is especially infuriating, as when I make jokes in poor taste they're treated like I completely meant them and not just as a bad joke.

Fat jokes can fly at me all they like (even when they're untrue - I'm out of shape, but relatively skinny) but you make one joke about your dad's beer belly and suddenly you're Satan.

This sounds like there is a pile of history here. Again, whatever you feel comfortable talking about, don't feel like we're pushing you here.

@Not taking you seriously
Sounds like precident is against you. Probably not your fault though. Lots of parents don't take what their child says seriously until they get this realization that, oh wait, their child isn't really a child anymore.

@Your brother's comment
It sounds to me like he has something behind that comment. But by the sounds of things, good luck getting him to open up about it without it turning into a very negative situation. Consider something though, have you vocally said that you don't want him bringing his friends to this family trip? Maybe he perceives you as threatening to his good time. Maybe he doesn't see a family vacation the same way you do. Maybe he just needs space, this is just his way of declaring the boundary.

@Jokes
Context and delivery are everything with humor. I'm not saying you did wrong, I can't possibly know. But maybe one of those two things were off at the time?

"I'm sick of having your friends butt in on the family vacation" is not going to do anything. "I don't want to come to [the lodge] anymore" is an outright lie.

Again why I feel like we're missing some details here.
Question. Can you go to the lodge and chose not to be around these people unless necessary, and go about your day and be happy? If no, then this is sounding more and more stressful for you by the minute. I'm sorry to hear that. My mom managed to ruin my childhood family vacation place for me. I get the odd urge to go back there once in a while but I'm afraid that either the mark my mom left or the nostalgia will just leave me disappointed.

"My only friends have never seen my face" is just whining and won't help anything.

If it's the truth, and you acknowledge it, it can be addressed. That tends to help things.

I could bitch some more about how modern social paradigms on relationships (both current and emerging) disgust me to my core, but what would the point of that be?

Because if they bias you as you try to form relationships, you'll only have further difficulty. You would be amazed at how often this is a problem for a relative of mine. And this thread is supposed to be a sort of sounding board. Go for it, this could be helpful for you.

[HalfTangible]

You clearly care how people treat you, though. Making yourself more likeable is generally a good way to improve that (i.e. cutting down on unflattering behaviour).

There's a reason I called myself antisocial for years before I was told that's actually a mental disorder. Making myself likeable just creates whole new problems because when people like me, they don't leave me alone.

This sounds like there is a pile of history here. Again, whatever you feel comfortable talking about, don't feel like we're pushing you here.

@Not taking you seriously
Sounds like precident is against you. Probably not your fault though. Lots of parents don't take what their child says seriously until they get this realization that, oh wait, their child isn't really a child anymore.

Well that's not gonna happen any time soon. *sigh*

@Your brother's comment
It sounds to me like he has something behind that comment. But by the sounds of things, good luck getting him to open up about it without it turning into a very negative situation. Consider something though, have you vocally said that you don't want him bringing his friends to this family trip? Maybe he perceives you as threatening to his good time. Maybe he doesn't see a family vacation the same way you do. Maybe he just needs space, this is just his way of declaring the boundary.

Bro has spent pretty much every night with these friends of his for months now, when he's not working.

I've said nothing at all. Mark was up here with us last year, and that wasn't a huge deal. Now Nick is also up here, and the place is getting crowded as ****.

@Jokes
Context and delivery are everything with humor. I'm not saying you did wrong, I can't possibly know. But maybe one of those two things were off at the time?

1) I'm pretty good with those.
2) I get that this would be the case occasionally, but when you spend half your time laughing at the serious things I say it's just frustrating that you spend half the time doing the exact opposite.

Again why I feel like we're missing some details here.
Question. Can you go to the lodge and chose not to be around these people unless necessary, and go about your day and be happy? If no, then this is sounding more and more stressful for you by the minute. I'm sorry to hear that. My mom managed to ruin my childhood family vacation place for me. I get the odd urge to go back there once in a while but I'm afraid that either the mark my mom left or the nostalgia will just leave me disappointed.

My brother's friends are staying in the same cabin we are, so no go on that.

Because if they bias you as you try to form relationships, you'll only have further difficulty. You would be amazed at how often this is a problem for a relative of mine. And this thread is supposed to be a sort of sounding board. Go for it, this could be helpful for you.

Sex is just like a drug and it's also evil. Love doesn't really exist, at least not as a positive force. Friendship as the people around me define it makes me feel like I'm dieing inside and no amount of social interaction is ever enough, which is kind of a problem when you don't like to interact with others. People talk too much and listen too little.

Oh, also, humans are all selfish scum inside, they just don't know it. If there's a single decent one in the lot, they're long dead.

If any of that is more helpful to you than it is to me, by all means, tell me.

[Aedilred]

There's a reason I called myself antisocial for years before I was told that's actually a mental disorder. Making myself likeable just creates whole new problems because when people like me, they don't leave me alone.

It does make it harder to feel sympathy for someone when they complain about people treating them badly then reject even the notion of trying to get people to like them.

Sex is just like a drug and it's also evil.

I have heard people say stuff like this before and, frankly, I find it ridiculous and not inoffensive. It's a biological function and means of perpetuating the species. It's also, at least when done right, great fun. All other things being equal, it is at worst morally neutral. Like eating.

Love doesn't really exist, at least not as a positive force.

Whether love actually exists is basically a philosophical argument with no empirically provable answer, at least as far as modern science goes, so there's not a lot of point getting into that. But love as commonly perceived? Sure, it exists, or at least something so similar as to be indistinguishable, and it absolutely can have a positive effect on people on both ends of it. Yes, it also has the capacity to cause great pain, but those are two sides of the same coin.

Friendship as the people around me define it makes me feel like I'm dieing inside and no amount of social interaction is ever enough, which is kind of a problem when you don't like to interact with others.

I must admit I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

Oh, also, humans are all selfish scum inside, they just don't know it. If there's a single decent one in the lot, they're long dead.

For all that I like my Hobbes, I'd dispute this. At least, depending on your definition. If your standard of decency is "completely absent even an iota of selfishness" then, sure, there probably isn't anyone like that, there probably never has been nor will be, nor will any organism or free-willed sentient creature that exists anywhere in the cosmos ever measure up to that standard. Which suggests the standard is probably faulty.

If you set the bar lower than that, then yes, there are decent people around. Maybe fewer than one would like, but all the same, they are out there.

A lot of this sounds pretty familiar, the sort of thing I've thought/felt/said at points in my own life, when I thought I had it all figured out and everyone else was an idiot for not seeing it. In the nicest possible way, I hope you one day come to look back on these statements with the same sort of embarrassment and amusement I now regard my similar proclammations.

[Grytorm]

Oh, also, humans are all selfish scum inside, they just don't know it. If there's a single decent one in the lot, they're long dead.

I sometimes feel kind of like that to. But instead of thinking of people as scum I sometimes realize that misery in omnipresent and brought about by other people. That all groups will hurt others for their own benefit and this will never change. So it is better if everyone and everything was dead.

[HalfTangible]

It does make it harder to feel sympathy for someone when they complain about people treating them badly then reject even the notion of trying to get people to like them.

I don't need people to like me, I need people to leave me alone. People don't leave me alone when they like me. People who hate me treat me like trash, but people who like me treat me like trash and think they're not, which is arguably worse.

I apologized for dumping this on yall mostly because this isn't a problem you can help me solve and if ya try it's just gonna frustrate you.

I have heard people say stuff like this before and, frankly, I find it ridiculous and not inoffensive. It's a biological function and means of perpetuating the species. It's also, at least when done right, great fun. All other things being equal, it is at worst morally neutral. Like eating.

Since when did 'offense' matter when arguing a point? The truth isn't always nice and the fact that you find it offensive only supports the point.

Ridiculous? Maybe, but again, doesn't mean untrue.

Let's start with your main rebuttal - that it's necessary for the continuation of the species. This is blatantly untrue and not how the species chooses to treat sex. Not only is artificial insemination a thing, the mere existence of birth control and contraceptives should show that humans have sex for the pleasure of the act first and for species continuation second. In addition - and I'll admit, this one is very debatable - a necessary evil is still an evil.

On to the drug comparison. Sex is addictive and causes intense pleasure in the person who does it, like many drugs. The general consensus is that before you have sex, you spend all your time wondering what the big deal is, and after you wonder how you ever lived without it. A person who has had sex spends most of their time thinking about sex and how to get more. Hell, even people who have never had it get stuck thinking on it. Why? Because their parents had it, too. And here's the kicker: the mere suggestion that a person has too much of it (drugs OR sex) is met with open contempt and hostility. You've already said that the comparison offends you, and frankly if sex were something people just did there'd be little reason to care, especially if it were as much fun as you claim. You know what people do for fun things when they have a healthy view of them? They continue to do the thing, at most acknowledging the other person's "Offensive" viewpoint with 'alright, your loss'.

Of course, that argument will do nothing to sway you or anyone and honestly I've stopped caring if it would.

There are reasons I don't like to discuss these things.

Whether love actually exists is basically a philosophical argument with no empirically provable answer, at least as far as modern science goes, so there's not a lot of point getting into that. But love as commonly perceived? Sure, it exists, or at least something so similar as to be indistinguishable, and it absolutely can have a positive effect on people on both ends of it. Yes, it also has the capacity to cause great pain, but those are two sides of the same coin.

Except that that pain always comes and it always outweighs the pleasure. And that's assuming you actually get love and not a ****ton of lies and manipulation.

Not like anyone cares about relationships anyway, oh no, that might interfere with getting laid erry night

I must admit I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

I'm an introvert - being sociable is exhausting for me. But maintaining friendships requires social interaction, and no amount of it is ever enough for anyone I meet.

And yes - I've tried being more outgoing. I'm very bad at it.

For all that I like my Hobbes, I'd dispute this. At least, depending on your definition. If your standard of decency is "completely absent even an iota of selfishness" then, sure, there probably isn't anyone like that, there probably never has been nor will be, nor will any organism or free-willed sentient creature that exists anywhere in the cosmos ever measure up to that standard. Which suggests the standard is probably faulty.

If you set the bar lower than that, then yes, there are decent people around. Maybe fewer than one would like, but all the same, they are out there.

A lot of this sounds pretty familiar, the sort of thing I've thought/felt/said at points in my own life, when I thought I had it all figured out and everyone else was an idiot for not seeing it. In the nicest possible way, I hope you one day come to look back on these statements with the same sort of embarrassment and amusement I now regard my similar proclammations.

I don't think I set the bar too high. Here:

-Someone who gives enough of a damn about others to go out of their way and not expect anything in return every once in a while. People like that don't exist. If someone does something nice for you, you're expected to do something equally nice for them in return.
-Someone who doesn't take joy from someone else's rage. God, I wish I knew what about me being pissed off was so funny that I had to go cry under a staircase through sixth period before they stopped.
-When someone else wants to be alone or doesn't want to talk, respect the decision.
-Think about something other than sex twice a day.

Fulfill any two of those four.

Maybe I will get over these thoughts, but I doubt it.

I sometimes feel kind of like that to. But instead of thinking of people as scum I sometimes realize that misery in omnipresent and brought about by other people. That all groups will hurt others for their own benefit and this will never change. So it is better if everyone and everything was dead.

No. A lot of things suck, but not everything does.

This is the last post I'm gonna make on this topic I just realized I've said at least four times now that I don't wanna talk about, at least for now. G'night. Thanks for your help and for putting up with me, guys.

[Aedilred]

On to the drug comparison. Sex is addictive and causes intense pleasure in the person who does it, like many drugs. The general consensus is that before you have sex, you spend all your time wondering what the big deal is, and after you wonder how you ever lived without it. A person who has had sex spends most of their time thinking about sex and how to get more. Hell, even people who have never had it get stuck thinking on it. Why? Because their parents had it, too. And here's the kicker: the mere suggestion that a person has too much of it (drugs OR sex) is met with open contempt and hostility. You've already said that the comparison offends you, and frankly if sex were something people just did there'd be little reason to care, especially if it were as much fun as you claim. You know what people do for fun things when they have a healthy view of them? They continue to do the thing, at most acknowledging the other person's "Offensive" viewpoint with 'alright, your loss'.

Not only is this, I'm afraid, nonsense, but I should point out that what I disliked about your original statement was that you referred to it as evil with the associated implication that people who do it are therefore morally defective.

I don't care whether you have sex or not; it's nothing to me. I do care about your casual disparagement of the life choices of many of the other people in this thread, and indeed, most of the rest of the species.

The rest of your general complaints are along the same lines: you're extrapolating "all" from "some", "none/nobody" from "not everyone", and "this doesn't exist" from "I haven't noticed or/experienced this".

[HalfTangible]

Not only is this, I'm afraid, nonsense, but I should point out that what I disliked about your original statement was that you referred to it as evil with the associated implication that people who do it are therefore morally defective.

I don't care whether you have sex or not; it's nothing to me. I do care about your casual disparagement of the life choices of many of the other people in this thread, and indeed, most of the rest of the species.

The rest of your general complaints are along the same lines: you're extrapolating "all" from "some", "none/nobody" from "not everyone", and "this doesn't exist" from "I haven't noticed or/experienced this".

Oh dear, how dare I even imply that human beings aren't perfect little angels, completely free of wrongdoing, selfishness, sin or anything even remotely negative >.> After all, all people are just perfect moral paragons with absolutely no issues or problems whatsoever. What a horrible little monster I am for daring to suggest that something most human beings do could potentially be a problem for them.

(EDIT: Okay, the sarcasm isn't gonna help matters. To clarify, I do not mean that the people who f%$# are evil. It's selfish and hurts those involved, therefore it's an evil thing to do. It would probably be less inflaming to say sex is bad for them, but that doesn't sound right... it's too weak, too impersonal.)

The number of people participating does not matter in determining whether or not the act is evil, its effects on those involved does. And it has a negative effect that people not only choose to ignore, but refuse to acknowledge.

I went back and read through my own post again. I didn't say any of those things in regards to sex >.> I did say that the pain always outweighs the pleasure in love, but I fail to see how that's incorrect. The pain of loss increases with the joy of love itself, which means it'll always match it. And that's without bringing in the fact that love ain't a perfect affair of awesome, it has just as many problems as any other form of relationship. So yeah. The pain outweighs the pleasure.

[Somensjev]

I did say that the pain always outweighs the pleasure in love, but I fail to see how that's incorrect. The pain of loss increases with the joy of love itself, which means it'll always match it. And that's without bringing in the fact that love ain't a perfect affair of awesome, it has just as many problems as any other form of relationship. So yeah. The pain outweighs the pleasure.

Spoiler: big ol' chunk o' text

Show

i personally find this to be untrue, in all my previous relationships the love i felt from/for the other member easily outweighed the pain of them leaving
i'm not really sure i could explain why, but i guess it's something like i feel the love the whole way through the relationship, and then there's a day or two where i'm very depressed that they left, but after that i vividly remember the feeling of that love, but only vaguely remember the feeling of the pain. if that makes sense
of course, this is probably untrue for most people, since humans remember negative things much more readily than positive things

and as for sex i've so far found everything you've said about it completely untrue. the only time i ever think about it is when others bring it up, and even then i only think about what they're saying. that held true before and after the act. i don't see anything addictive about sex. i barely have an experience with it and yet i am also slightly offended at your accusations

and that's not only true about sex, if you called any other thing i thought of as fun "evil and addictive" i'd be pretty offended at that as well (in fact i have been, i got offended by my friend's parent's accusations that the YuGiOh card game was evil, and my exgirlfriend's mother's view that DnD was some kind of evil cult that sacrificed things to "evil, malevolent beings")


as another thing i'm slightly offended that according to you i don't exist

-Someone who gives enough of a damn about others to go out of their way and not expect anything in return every once in a while. People like that don't exist. If someone does something nice for you, you're expected to do something equally nice for them in return.
-Someone who doesn't take joy from someone else's rage. God, I wish I knew what about me being pissed off was so funny that I had to go cry under a staircase through sixth period before they stopped.
-When someone else wants to be alone or doesn't want to talk, respect the decision.
-Think about something other than sex twice a day.

i not only fulfill any two of those, i fulfill all four

-i would quite happily do a favour for someone i'd never met, and will never meet again, and i will refuse anything they try to give me in return
-why would i take joy at someone's rage? i might enjoy a good argument/debate but i'd never actively enjoy someone's rage
-i've done this one more times than i'd like to admit to, even in times when i thought it would be best to pursue them, i waited until they said it was alright to talk, or to come back
-on a daily basis i think about: magic the gathering, DnD, manga, my friends, what to do with my money (usually either buy food or magic cards), music, and a plethora of other things

that ended up a lot bigger than i meant it to

anyway @halftangible
no matter what you tell yourself, being introduced to your, for lack of a better word, crush's boyfriend will always hurt

as someone who's always being compared to his older brother, it doesn't get better until one of you move away, or at least, it didn't for me. my family always treated him better and told me to act more like him, people who met him before me would avoid me be cause i was "that prick's brother", the only people who didn't compare us were the friends i made that met him after me (mostly because they really didn't like him when they met him). i eventually just learnt to deal with this, it didnt really help

as an additional note, i don't think you could burden the people on this forum if you tried
sorry, what i say probably isn't very helpful, but i thought it'd be better to at least say something than to ignore it all

[Karoht]

Well that's not gonna happen any time soon. *sigh*

You could try demonstrating maturity rather than not. I'm guessing it hasn't worked in the past, but the thing about changing people's opinion of you is that you have to be persistent and consistent. This is not a platitude, honestly people really take a long time to notice these things. It's an every day effort, or it's wasted.

Bro has spent pretty much every night with these friends of his for months now, when he's not working.
I've said nothing at all. Mark was up here with us last year, and that wasn't a huge deal. Now Nick is also up here, and the place is getting crowded as ****.
My brother's friends are staying in the same cabin we are, so no go on that.

So, you don't go anywhere outside of this cabin when you go on vacation?
Why does it matter who your brother is spending time with?

1) I'm pretty good with those.
2) I get that this would be the case occasionally, but when you spend half your time laughing at the serious things I say it's just frustrating that you spend half the time doing the exact opposite.

My grandparents treated me much the same way until I finished college, got a job, and moved out. And even then they still do it from time to time. Seems to be a parental/guardian thing. Doesn't make it acceptable if it is as acute as you say it is. That seems strange.

People talk too much and listen too little.

Always a flaw of the world.

Oh, also, humans are all selfish scum inside, they just don't know it. If there's a single decent one in the lot, they're long dead.
If any of that is more helpful to you than it is to me, by all means, tell me.

It is highly helpful. Knowing that this is how you walk around and bias any and all interactions you have is useful. It means you have an absurd standard of people, and when they fail to meet that expecation, I'm willing to bet you judge them pretty harshly. This can definitely make it hard for others to be around you, even if you aren't consciously aware of any action to push them away.

What a horrible little monster I am for daring to suggest that something most human beings do could potentially be a problem for them.

See above.

I don't think I set the bar too high. Here:
1-Someone who gives enough of a damn about others to go out of their way and not expect anything in return every once in a while. People like that don't exist. If someone does something nice for you, you're expected to do something equally nice for them in return.
2-Someone who doesn't take joy from someone else's rage. God, I wish I knew what about me being pissed off was so funny that I had to go cry under a staircase through sixth period before they stopped.
3-When someone else wants to be alone or doesn't want to talk, respect the decision.
4-Think about something other than sex twice a day.

Fulfill any two of those four.

1-People are going out of their way to listen to you in this thread right now. We don't expect anything of it. Heck, we didn't have to even read this thread, that was a conscious decision.
2-I don't find your rage joyous or funny. Pretty sure no one here finds it funny.
3-I've personally said that you only have to share what you want to share, the rest of the thread seems to have respected that for the most part as well. If you want to stop, we'll stop, trust me.
4-The notion that people think about sex all the time has no basis. Ergo, just about every human on the planet will be thinking about something other than sex twice a day.

I don't need people to like me, I need people to leave me alone. People don't leave me alone when they like me. People who hate me treat me like trash, but people who like me treat me like trash and think they're not, which is arguably worse.

Yet you care if people like your or not. Otherwise, what your brother said to you would hardly matter at all.
I'm guessing that you push people away more than you realize. Because if you've verbalized what you just said here around any of your friends, or if your brother spread it around...

Sex is just like a drug and it's also evil. Love doesn't really exist, at least not as a positive force. Friendship as the people around me define it makes me feel like I'm dieing inside and no amount of social interaction is ever enough, which is kind of a problem when you don't like to interact with others.

Have you considered seeking professional help?
How do people around you define friendship exactly? Or rather, how do you assume they define it?

EDIT:

This is the last post I'm gonna make on this topic I just realized I've said at least four times now that I don't wanna talk about, at least for now. G'night. Thanks for your help and for putting up with me, guys.

Ah, somehow missed this. Alright, if you want to stop, your choice. Glad to be of help, if any. Take care.

[HalfTangible]

It is highly helpful. Knowing that this is how you walk around and bias any and all interactions you have is useful. It means you have an absurd standard of people, and when they fail to meet that expecation, I'm willing to bet you judge them pretty harshly. This can definitely make it hard for others to be around you, even if you aren't consciously aware of any action to push them away.

I don't say any of these things aloud to people, and honestly, these trends are so widespread that judging people by them is pointless.

So, you don't go anywhere outside of this cabin when you go on vacation?
Why does it matter who your brother is spending time with?

Oh I do, I just always have to come back to sleep, and the cabin's the easiest place to cool off in 100+ weather.

*sigh* Maybe this is just me, but I feel when you go on a family vacation out of town for a week, you're supposed to spend time with family and the people that are where you go.

Have you considered seeking professional help?

I did get professional help. It didn't help. At all. In fact, it made things worse. I'd rather not say how that ended, but trust me on this one, it was bad.

And no, as I said earlier, I haven't vocalized any of this. I remain as cordial and courteous as I can manage when I interact with people. I just don't like to interact with people.

[Karoht]

I don't say any of these things aloud to people, and honestly, these trends are so widespread that judging people by them is pointless.
And no, as I said earlier, I haven't vocalized any of this. I remain as cordial and courteous as I can manage when I interact with people. I just don't like to interact with people.

Ah yes. Just because you act cordial and courteous doesn't mean that people have no clue that you are acting cordial and courteous. Body language, eye movement, tone of voice, impression of sincerity, and other factors, all give you away.

Oh I do, I just always have to come back to sleep, and the cabin's the easiest place to cool off in 100+ weather.

Great. What does that have to do with other people who are presumably sleeping in their own areas?

Maybe this is just me, but I feel when you go on a family vacation out of town for a week, you're supposed to spend time with family and the people that are where you go.

I acknowledged this earlier, your brother clearly doesn't see it as a family exclusive event. Also, neither do your parents who are footing the bill I take it. In addition to being outvoted, they don't follow your sentiment.

I did get professional help. It didn't help. At all. In fact, it made things worse. I'd rather not say how that ended, but trust me on this one, it was bad.

Get a second opinion?
You don't want to say how it ended? Okay. Tell me about the middle bit? (not a serious question)
Was it a problem with the professional being not so professional?

[HalfTangible]

Great. What does that have to do with other people who are presumably sleeping in their own areas?

There are two beds and one couch in this one cabin that needs to fit 6 people.

It was alright when I could sleep on the couch. If we all had rooms of our own or areas of our own to sleep in, that would be fine too. But this place is compact as f%#$.

I acknowledged this earlier, your brother clearly doesn't see it as a family exclusive event. Also, neither do your parents who are footing the bill I take it. In addition to being outvoted, they don't follow your sentiment.

I know. That doesn't make it less frustrating, especially since mom and dad aren't exactly happy about the arrangement either from what I can tell. It's tolerated.

You don't want to say how it ended? Okay. Tell me about the middle bit? (not a serious question)
Was it a problem with the professional being not so professional?

I mean that I don't want to talk about what convinced me it was a bad idea and dropped it.

You could say that, I guess. Or if she was, then quite frankly I have reason to seriously doubt the effectiveness of therapy when you tell your clients you'll do one thing and then do another.

[Karoht]

There are two beds and one couch in this one cabin that needs to fit 6 people.
It was alright when I could sleep on the couch. If we all had rooms of our own or areas of our own to sleep in, that would be fine too. But this place is compact as f%#$.
I know. That doesn't make it less frustrating, especially since mom and dad aren't exactly happy about the arrangement either from what I can tell. It's tolerated.

Odd that. So there are 7 of you in a place that sleeps 6?

I mean that I don't want to talk about what convinced me it was a bad idea and dropped it.
You could say that, I guess. Or if she was, then quite frankly I have reason to seriously doubt the effectiveness of therapy when you tell your clients you'll do one thing and then do another.

One therapist does not represent the whole. Can I ask what kind of help you had? Psychologist? Psychiatrist? Councillor? Life Coach? Hobo on the street? Also, how long ago was this?
Telling a client one thing and then doing something else isn't typical behavior either. Consistancy and stable patterns are usually a big deal with mental health professionals.

My mom went through 4 psychiatrists and 2 social workers before I left home. Upon my leaving home (re: run away), social worker #3 figures out that yes, there was indeed an abusive environment at my house, affecting my mom, my brother, my self. Despite me telling them in plain english what was going on. Somehow, these people miss things sometimes. Sometimes they are clear and obvious signs that somehow are ignored or unnoticed, other times it's the telling small detail that could have unravelled everything. Still, their job is hard and incredibly thankless. In all due seriousness, I strongly recommend giving it another try, though with a different person. If you choose not to, that's your business, we'll still be here to listen.

[Coidzor]

Spoiler: Halftangible, Grytorm, Aedilred: Love, Sex, and annoying little brothers

Show

I already have and come to the conclusion that yes, they are good reasons. For starters, I only see this person one week out of the year, if I'm lucky, and we both spend most of our time doing things that keep us from speaking. That's not exactly the basis for a healthy relationship.

Then it sounds like a perfect opportunity to release your attraction to the world and in doing so let it end rather than keeping it bottled up.

And, best of all, you can do so with no real risk of actually getting into her panties and not much chance of getting into a wanted but unwanted relationship of complication.

Only in matters I want to be experienced in. I did say I was celibate through choice, right?

Yeah, but you've never actually defended your choice as a good one when it's come up before, nor have you ever given any indication that you're Asexual. And you've actively indicated that you are not Aromantic, so... Yeah.

If you're not doing it for a reason greater than yourself and you're in this situation, it's time to revisit the subject. And even if you were doing it for a reason greater than yourself, well, not doing yourself any favors to leave things unexamined and a source of frustration and pain.

No. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Does he? You later say that none of your friends have ever seen your face. That you have not a single friend in meatspace. Isolation, especially prolonged isolation, does terrible things to us, even if we are introverted.

Thing is, we're both adults now, and he's stronger than me. Much better at remaining in control of himself too.

And the things I love are far more fragile than anything he cares about.

Alas, the plight of no longer being the bigger brother while still having the burden of being older, I am sorry. Still, that leaves you the options that don't involve physically overpowering him, though it sounds like you've got your work cut out for you to get his headspace back to recognizing your place as his superior sibling.

All the more reason to fight for them if push comes to shove.

You are operating under the assumption that I care about being "flattering."

That's... not really what that means or where I was going with that. It's like a 6 year old girl wearing her mother's wedding dress, she simply hasn't grown into it yet. It's fun at times, sure, but there's not the basis or life experience on which to really make use of it properly.

You clearly care how people treat you, though. Making yourself more likeable is generally a good way to improve that (i.e. cutting down on unflattering behaviour).

Good point, not going out of one's way to alienate others generally smooths the way.

"I hate the world and want to watch it burn" is not exactly something that needs to be said.

On the contrary, it's the sort of thing that needs to be said so that the reasons behind it are brought to light and addressed.

"I want to be alone" has never worked.

Largely because not being alone takes work, even if it's the work of being out there enough to be in the right place at the right time to luck out.

I know that "I love you" is incorrect and would just hurt her or create a false impression and I don't want that.

A false impression of what? That you have feels for her? If you don't have feels for her, why's she haunting you? Is it just jealousy that she has something and you don't?

"I'm sick of having your friends butt in on the family vacation" is not going to do anything.

Said the right way and to the right people at the right time it can. Especially if your parents are as frustrated by their tag along presence. Can't really get rid of them mid-trip, but it can have an impact on the future.

"I don't want to come to [the lodge] anymore" is an outright lie.

Then why would you want to say it? Why do you bring it up as an example? The reason behind that may help uncover other conflicts and issues in need of resolution.

"My only friends have never seen my face" is just whining and won't help anything.

You can do something about that if you really want to thanks to the wonders of modern technology and you can make friends somewhere within your meatspace sphere of influence. So, why is this so?

And what is this girl you're talking about, chopped liver?

I could bitch some more about how modern social paradigms on relationships (both current and emerging) disgust me to my core, but what would the point of that be?

By all means, go ahead and do so. It's good for you, especially if you're mistaken and can have your misapprehensions corrected. It sounds like this ties into your decision to be celibate despite the pain it causes you and your previously expressed general misanthropy.

The only thing more common than difficulties navigating cultural mores and relationships is misunderstandings about what those cultural mores actually are.

There's a reason I called myself antisocial for years before I was told that's actually a mental disorder. Making myself likeable just creates whole new problems because when people like me, they don't leave me alone.

That's generally why one associates most with people one actually likes, yes. Just being a generally positive person who is pleasant to be around doesn't cause people to start breaking down your door to spend more time with you and costs you nothing when you take into account how difficult it is to find those people you'd actually like when you've got a rep as a sourpuss or are living as a complete hermit.

Well that's not gonna happen any time soon. *sigh*

Maybe not, but you can start laying the groundwork for it.

Bro has spent pretty much every night with these friends of his for months now, when he's not working.

I've said nothing at all. Mark was up here with us last year, and that wasn't a huge deal. Now Nick is also up here, and the place is getting crowded as ****.

Yeah, there's a reason they're called cabins. At the very least if they're going to continue to accrue more people they need to start putting together the scratch to take on a second cabin or a larger one in order to accomodate all that biomass and testosterone.

1) I'm pretty good with those.
2) I get that this would be the case occasionally, but when you spend half your time laughing at the serious things I say it's just frustrating that you spend half the time doing the exact opposite.

Indeed, that is frustrating. It sounds like a combination of your approach and the audience just not clicking, exactly, but that's just based upon the little we have so far.

Sex is just like a drug and it's also evil.

Nope. At least about it being evil. In certain cases it can be likened to a drug, but not in any meaningful way for negativity's sake.

Love doesn't really exist, at least not as a positive force.

Nope. Though, by all means, please go on about how and why you believe that Love is purely a negative, evil thing.

Friendship as the people around me define it makes me feel like I'm dieing inside and no amount of social interaction is ever enough, which is kind of a problem when you don't like to interact with others. People talk too much and listen too little.

Gonna have to explain that in more depth, especially about where your line for social interaction and theirs differ.

Oh, also, humans are all selfish scum inside, they just don't know it. If there's a single decent one in the lot, they're long dead.

And, again, you're going to really have to back up your statement with the reason why you believe such an erroneous thing.

If any of that is more helpful to you than it is to me, by all means, tell me.

Well, it does lead to further questions, which is better than just accepting that life is an intolerable situation without exception.

I sometimes feel kind of like that to. But instead of thinking of people as scum I sometimes realize that misery in omnipresent and brought about by other people. That all groups will hurt others for their own benefit and this will never change. So it is better if everyone and everything was dead.

That's not better, that's worse.

I don't need people to like me, I need people to leave me alone. People don't leave me alone when they like me. People who hate me treat me like trash, but people who like me treat me like trash and think they're not, which is arguably worse.

So... Why are you friends with these people and why do you regret them not seeing your face? Or are you saying that your friends don't like you at all?

And how, exactly, do you consider these people to really like you if they treat you like trash, as you say? Especially considering people generally don't enjoy being around trash, so it conflicts with your bemoaning that those who like you want to be around you and interact with you too much, even other introverts, somehow.

I apologized for dumping this on yall mostly because this isn't a problem you can help me solve and if ya try it's just gonna frustrate you.

Frustrate, confuse and fascinate as to how you gained these views. Tomayto, tomahto.

Since when did 'offense' matter when arguing a point? The truth isn't always nice and the fact that you find it offensive only supports the point.

Since always. Alienating people won't persuade them of anything, even if you're stating objective truth. That's just rhetoric, Gunther.

Ridiculous? Maybe, but again, doesn't mean untrue.

Yes, but in this case it's ridiculous, untrue, and deeply flawed due to your bias.

Let's start with your main rebuttal - that it's necessary for the continuation of the species. This is blatantly untrue and not how the species chooses to treat sex. Not only is artificial insemination a thing, the mere existence of birth control and contraceptives should show that humans have sex for the pleasure of the act first and for species continuation second. In addition - and I'll admit, this one is very debatable - a necessary evil is still an evil.

Those are two different things, that sex reproduces the species and the species treats sex as more than just reproduction. And "how the species chooses to treat sex" is about as universal as the idea that there was only one culture of Native Americans in North America is untrue. So you automatically lose just on thinking that humans are monolithic in their sexual practices and mores.

Also, you're just going off on an irrelevant tangent by bringing up something that's not actually widespread enough to perpetuate the species in its current form and forgetting that, hey, even when you take the act of sex out of the direct equation, you're not really doing anything to address that humans are sexual creatures.

For a necessary evil to still be evil you must prove that it is evil.

On to the drug comparison. Sex is addictive and causes intense pleasure in the person who does it, like many drugs.

And yet Asexuals can't get addicted no matter how much sex they have, whereas anyone can get addicted to the drugs that one can get addicted to. Funny, no?

The general consensus is that before you have sex, you spend all your time wondering what the big deal is, and after you wonder how you ever lived without it.

A person who has had sex spends most of their time thinking about sex and how to get more.

[Citation needed]

AKA, "Your general, sweeping assertions are incorrect and fail to really do the breadth of human thought and experience justice."

Hell, even people who have never had it get stuck thinking on it. Why? Because their parents had it, too.

That's utterly meaningless.

Especially considering you touched upon in vitro fertilization earlier, and there are people who have been born whose mother never engaged in coitus.

And here's the kicker: the mere suggestion that a person has too much of it (drugs OR sex) is met with open contempt and hostility.

You are aware that rehab is a thing, right? Not as refined or as effective as we'd like, but it is a thing. We do give people the option of rehab and even pressure them to go through interventions.

And, no, not everyone who needs drug rehab reacts with open contempt and hostility when confronted with this fact. Some people even seek it out on their own.

And, yes, suggesting that you know what someone should be doing with their sex life better than they do is offensive because it's calling yourself superior to them and laying a claim not only on their bodily autonomy but on a very intimate and personal component of their bodily autonomy and personhood.

Dictating to others who they should have sex with or how often they should have sex is a violation of basic interpersonal boundaries, and it's not because non-asexuals are nothing more than addicts.

You've already said that the comparison offends you, and frankly if sex were something people just did there'd be little reason to care, especially if it were as much fun as you claim.

No, it's offensive because you're ignorant and claim to know better than those who have more life experience and understanding of the subject than you do.

You know what people do for fun things when they have a healthy view of them? They continue to do the thing, at most acknowledging the other person's "Offensive" viewpoint with 'alright, your loss'.

And that's how people react to asexuals when they understand them. No one's going to just simply say "Alright, your loss," when the other person calls them evil or pathetic. I mean, have you not paid any attention at all to the battle for gay rights?

Of course, that argument will do nothing to sway you or anyone and honestly I've stopped caring if it would.

It's not a persuasive argument in the first place and it's deeply flawed besides. So, really, it's barely an argument, sorry.

There are reasons I don't like to discuss these things.

Which is all the more reason that you should, because either you need to abandon your bad ideas or rework them into better ideas.

Except that that pain always comes and it always outweighs the pleasure. And that's assuming you actually get love and not a ****ton of lies and manipulation.

That is incorrect. I'm sympathetic to the stupid highschool malarkey that leads to such an outlook, but it's just not indicative of anything beyond personal anecdote. And the thing about a personal anecdote that tries to make a universal generalization is that a single other personal anecdote to the contrary causes it to unravel.

I've gotten pain from loves lost, but it hasn't outweighed the good times and how I've grown as a person would be worth it on its own. Loving has lead to a greater understanding of myself and others as well as led me to new interests and hobbies that I otherwise would never have taken up if not for having someone whom I deeply cared for who exposed me to them.

Not like anyone cares about relationships anyway, oh no, that might interfere with getting laid erry night

*points upthread* Your assertion is disproven by the forum in which you have voiced it, sir.

Besides, wanting to have sex with one's partner and caring about one's relationship with one's partner are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, there's a certain synergy between having a healthy sex life in the relationship and a healthy relationship. Won't make things work on its own, but it does help make things better in general.

I'm an introvert - being sociable is exhausting for me. But maintaining friendships requires social interaction, and no amount of it is ever enough for anyone I meet.

Even other introverts?

And yes - I've tried being more outgoing. I'm very bad at it.

It does take practice and in some cases study for those it does not come naturally to. The key is not to just give up and write off interacting with humans ever again.

I don't think I set the bar too high. Here:

-Someone who gives enough of a damn about others to go out of their way and not expect anything in return every once in a while. People like that don't exist. If someone does something nice for you, you're expected to do something equally nice for them in return.
-Someone who doesn't take joy from someone else's rage. God, I wish I knew what about me being pissed off was so funny that I had to go cry under a staircase through sixth period before they stopped.
-When someone else wants to be alone or doesn't want to talk, respect the decision.
-Think about something other than sex twice a day.

Fulfill any two of those four.

Everyone I know beyond the acquaintance level fulfills 3 out of 4 of those and that's only if your criterion is so out of touch that it doesn't allow for any level of schadenfreude whatsoever.

Maybe I will get over these thoughts, but I doubt it.

I hope you do. There's a whole rich world of people and places and experiences out there.

No. A lot of things suck, but not everything does.

That's good. That's a start.

Oh dear, how dare I even imply that human beings aren't perfect little angels, completely free of wrongdoing, selfishness, sin or anything even remotely negative >.> After all, all people are just perfect moral paragons with absolutely no issues or problems whatsoever. What a horrible little monster I am for daring to suggest that something most human beings do could potentially be a problem for them.

Go read jedipotter's threads on the 3.5 board, especially the one about whether one can cheat at D&D.

(EDIT: Okay, the sarcasm isn't gonna help matters. To clarify, I do not mean that the people who f%$# are evil. It's selfish and hurts those involved, therefore it's an evil thing to do. It would probably be less inflaming to say sex is bad for them, but that doesn't sound right... it's too weak, too impersonal.)

Not really a useful distinction, especially if you stop and think about it and examine that you're making pronouncement about people and relationship dynamics of which you know nothing, Jon Snow.

The number of people participating does not matter in determining whether or not the act is evil, its effects on those involved does. And it has a negative effect that people not only choose to ignore, but refuse to acknowledge.

Depends on your view of moral relativism, I believe. So what is this negative effect that we're ignoring and refuse to acknowledge?

[Grytorm]

That's not better, that's worse.

Oh I kind of know that and I don't really feel like that right now. But Anthropology class was fun.

[HalfTangible]

Good god, I hope you don't expect me to respond to ALL of that

And what is this girl you're talking about, chopped liver?

A person I have barely spoken to, know very little about and see one week out of the year. We're not friends and haven't been for years, we just know each other and I think she's super pretty.

Pretty sure I never said my attraction to her made sense.

Not really a useful distinction, especially if you stop and think about it and examine that you're making pronouncement about people and relationship dynamics of which you know nothing, Jon Snow.

See, thing is, I don't need to test drive a car to know it's terrible if I can see that the car is on fire. I don't need to shove glass into my foot to know it would hurt when i walked, or into my eyes to know it would blind me. I don't need to go to Antarctica to know it's cold. I don't need to have sex to know it's addictive because I have seen how people react to it.

I hope you do. There's a whole rich world of people and places and experiences out there.

Oh great, MORE people to be laughed at, bullied by and stared at incredulously depending on their mood and places to look at while those things happen. How wonderful

*points upthread* Your assertion is disproven by the forum in which you have voiced it, sir.

'anyone' in that case was in the expressive form, not the literal, and a response to multiple assertions of such.

Besides, wanting to have sex with one's partner and caring about one's relationship with one's partner are not mutually exclusive.

One is selfish, the other is selfless. You can't be both. That is the very definition of 'mutually exclusive'.

And that's how people react to asexuals when they understand them. No one's going to just simply say "Alright, your loss," when the other person calls them evil or pathetic.

But I don't, that's the thing - I call the act evil and wrong, not the person. There's a difference. One that people who have had sex refuse to acknowledge.

If an act you undertake is so central to your identity that calling it evil is too offensive to you personally for you to bear but also so unnecessary that you could stop if you had to, I'm not the one with the problem here.

I mean, have you not paid any attention at all to the battle for gay rights?

Yes, I have. (Christian, kinda have to) That's half the basis for the idea that people have sex for pleasure and personal enjoyment first, species continuation second.

[Jallorn]

One is selfish, the other is selfless. You can't be both. That is the very definition of 'mutually exclusive'.

In fact you can, and being able to contain such complex dualities and contradictions is one of the more interesting aspects of human kind.

The problem I'm seeing that likely influences your whole life: you're so convinced you know everything, and that you're completely right about it all, that there's almost no way it doesn't inform and show through everything you do. I'd wager your brother thinks you're boring because you don't express passion. You're like Marvin the Paranoid Android, except less humorous because you blame everyone around you. You're dealing with confirmation bias as well. You're a pessimest, and you look for evidence to support your beliefs, and guess what, if you look for negativity, you'll find negativity.

You have created the miserable world you live in by believing in it and giving it control over you. 10:1 odds you're also one of those people who doesn't really listen. I gotta say, when you do stop to listen, when you forget about yourself for even a few minutes, it gives you perspective, and that perspective helps to make your own hardships more bearable.

Open yourself up to the possibility of being wrong, it's not a failure to be wrong, it's a chance to learn.

[HalfTangible]

In fact you can, and being able to contain such complex dualities and contradictions is one of the more interesting aspects of human kind.

The problem I'm seeing that likely influences your whole life: you're so convinced you know everything, and that you're completely right about it all, that there's almost no way it doesn't inform and show through everything you do. I'd wager your brother thinks you're boring because you don't express passion. You're like Marvin the Paranoid Android, except less humorous because you blame everyone around you. You're dealing with confirmation bias as well. You're a pessimest, and you look for evidence to support your beliefs, and guess what, if you look for negativity, you'll find negativity.

You have created the miserable world you live in by believing in it and giving it control over you. 10:1 odds you're also one of those people who doesn't really listen. I gotta say, when you do stop to listen, when you forget about yourself for even a few minutes, it gives you perspective, and that perspective helps to make your own hardships more bearable.

Open yourself up to the possibility of being wrong, it's not a failure to be wrong, it's a chance to learn.

Glad to see assumptions and generalizations are only a problem when I do 'em. *sigh*

I'm not living in a miserable world, I just hold no illusions about the fact that the world sucks and have had a couple of very rotten days. Unless you mean my views on sex, and if you think sex is needed to be happy as you imply, you are hardly qualified to tell me I have a problem.

My brother thinks I'm boring because I don't often leave the lodges on vacation. He's incorrect, as whether or not I want to float the river this year is not what determines what makes me boring or fun.

I am perfectly capable of being wrong and have been on numerous topics. This just isn't one of them.

Oh, and don't make bets. You just lost both of them.

[Jallorn]

Glad to see assumptions and generalizations are only a problem when I do 'em. *sigh*

I'm not living in a miserable world, I just hold no illusions about the fact that the world sucks and have had a couple of very rotten days. Unless you mean my views on sex, and if you think sex is needed to be happy as you imply, you are hardly qualified to tell me I have a problem.

My brother thinks I'm boring because I don't often leave the lodges on vacation. He's incorrect, as whether or not I want to float the river this year is not what determines what makes me boring or fun.

I am perfectly capable of being wrong and have been on numerous topics. This just isn't one of them.

Oh, and don't make bets. You just lost both of them.

Yes, I'm making assumptions, about one person. I'm willing to be wrong. And yeah, when you say the world sucks, that's a pretty miserable world to live in, and it's not the one I live in. Many of my friends are pessimists, and I gotta tell you: pessimism breeds unhappiness.

I said nothing about sex. You're once again projecting your beliefs onto what you are willing to see of reality. Sex is not needed to be happy. I've been quite happy all my life and have spent the vast majority of that not having sex. Also, one need not be a paragon to identify evil. Likewise, one need not be sane or stable, both of which I generally am, with the exception of my stress avoidance issues, to identify problems.

And yeah, I generally don't bet.

And for the record: I drew my assumption about you not being someone who listens from the way you talk about the people around you. You might hear what they're saying, but you don't seem to develop a nuanced understanding of them, which is what listening is about. It's not about letting them talk, it's about working to understand what they're not saying. Could I be wrong? Yes, but I've seen similar patterns of personality, and I'm still betting that you're not listening as well as you think you are.

As a last note: I've expressed my view of the world, and it really works for me. My life is good, and that's not just because of the fortune I've had: I know people with more who are less happy. I believe we choose to be happy or not, and it is a daily choice. My outlook and lifestyle are not for everyone, and I don't want to force them on anyone, but you are so clearly not happy with your present situation, and a lot of it seems to stem from your outlook on life. I hope things work out for you, and I apologize if I have offended you in any way. Good luck with your life.

[HalfTangible]

Yes, I'm making assumptions, about one person. I'm willing to be wrong. And yeah, when you say the world sucks, that's a pretty miserable world to live in, and it's not the one I live in. Many of my friends are pessimists, and I gotta tell you: pessimism breeds unhappiness.

It's not miserable. You can have a world that sucks and be happy in it. And I am, usually.

I find that pessimism breeds relief and occasional happiness with the darkest of scenarios, as you're usually either right or pleasantly surprised. Optimism breeds disappointment in an imperfect, sucky world.

I said nothing about sex.

No but the conversation you formed your opinion of me on featured it prominently. I took the possibility that was what you meant into consideration and left an aside for it.

but you are so clearly not happy with your present situation

Over the last two days, someone tried to stab someone else behind the game room area over a game of beer pong, I found out my long-time crush had a boyfriend, my brother said some stuff, my dad has said to my face he doesn't care what I have to say about whether or not he touches me, and we began trying to fit six people into a four person cabin. If I were happy right now there would be cause for concern.

I needed to vent after a bad couple of days. I didn't need a solution to all of life's problems.

*sigh* thanks for trying guys, but I'm out.

[Serpentine]

If you don't want sex, don't have it*. If you think relationships are stupid, don't have one. If you think the world sucks and everyone in it is horrible, you'll probably make sure you're right and there's nothing anyone else can do about that.
Excellent, another successful woe solved! Is there anyone else with a question who actually genuinely wants help we're able to give?


*but preferably don't insult the people who do want it and assume that you, in all your mighty omniscience, know exactly how everyone feels, thinks and behaves with it. The arrogance is astounding.

[TheSummoner]

Not really sure if there's any advice to be given here, but it is something I want to get out.

I went to a convention over the weekend and while I was there, I tried to force myself to be a bit more social than I typically am. One of the things they had at the convention was a dance. I do not dance and have never danced, but I went anyways because to put it plainly, I have been single far longer than I would ever want to be and it seemed like a good way to meet people. I went, I was social, I danced with a few girls, but didn't really find anyone who interested me or who I felt a connection with. Then at one point, a girl approaches me. I spend the next few hours dancing with her, talking with her, and generally spending time with her and the group of friends she came to the convention with. One of her friends even makes a comment about having to talk her into coming up to me because she was nervous or something like that. We seem to have a lot in common, when we talked, she was hanging off every word I said, and as I mentioned before, she was the one to approach me. I take all of this as a sign that she's interested in me and that she's flirting with me. I flirt back, we exchange phone numbers, etc, etc.

The next day I send her a message saying what panel I was going to and mentioning that if she wanted to hang out, to let me know and we could find something to do (I think I also mentioned something about getting food since I hadn't eaten at this point). Her response is that she can't because she's spending time with her friends and her boyfriend, but maybe we could do something later.

We talked things out a bit and she didn't realize I had thought she was interested and she felt bad if the way she was acting came off that way. Apparently she just has a very outgoing personality and she hadn't noticed my flirting (though I thought I was being fairly obvious about it). In general, just a crappy, depressing situation. Like I said, I don't know if there's any advice to be offered, but it's something I felt like saying.

[Aedilred]

Not really sure if there's any advice to be given here, but it is something I want to get out.

...

We talked things out a bit and she didn't realize I had thought she was interested and she felt bad if the way she was acting came off that way. Apparently she just has a very outgoing personality and she hadn't noticed my flirting (though I thought I was being fairly obvious about it). In general, just a crappy, depressing situation. Like I said, I don't know if there's any advice to be offered, but it's something I felt like saying.

Eh, that kind of sucks; I feel like something similar has happened to me more than once. Some people are genuinely a bit challenged in terms of reading body language and come across as flirty when they're not/don't notice people flirting with them when they are*. But in terms of what to do now, she has a boyfriend, she clearly doesn't seem interested in you in the same way right now**, so there's not much you can really do other than try to put it behind you and learn from the experience. Whether there's any mileage in trying to be friends... I don't know whether that's a possibility given the context, but I'd advise against that just for the sake of it, unless you really get on so well with her you'd honestly be happy to have her as just a friend and nothing else/more.


*Although I did once have a thing for a friend of mine who had this sort of problem; she told me that she sometimes came across as flirting when she didn't mean to, so I assumed that what I had previously taken as flirty behaviour was just her being unaware. Turned out, many, many years later, that she actually had been interested in me in the first place. So you never quite know.

**And if she is, and she has a boyfriend, I'd take that as a red flag anyway, to be honest.