Relationship Woes and Advice 25: Now with extra Valentine

[Xapi]

Alright, time for an update and some replies to your comments.

Thanks a lot for making them, it's good to bounce ideas with you guys.

We talked again on Friday night, and she seems to have come around. She still has doubts, there's basically her inherent lack of trust that tells her I've cheated, clashing with her opinion of me and what we've lived together that tells her I would never do that. But she has decided not to end our relationship over something that she may very well be mistaken.

Her scrutiny is completely ridiculous. Her having routine access to your email, your face book, your call records, and your texts is setting off alarm bells. She sounds like an extremely controlling person - if you weren't married and didn't have a kid, I'd be recommending dumping her and getting the heck out of the situation.

Meh. I understand most people wouldn't accept this, but I like to be a man who says what he thinks and does what he says. I have nothing to hide. I have on some ocasions thought that giving her all this info is a way of feeding her issues, but it's too late to change now, and I don't really know if I want to, or if it would benefit anyone.

Has she always been like this? Jealous and suspicious? Just tossing out there that perhaps she's going after you like this in order to hide her own discrepancies? I could be totally off base here, as I obviously don't know either of you, but in the vacuum of analysis, it might be something to consider? Because as Knaight said, this level of scrutiny and distrust is completely uncalled for, especially as you've been together for quite a while. Either way, good luck.

Yes, she has always been like this.

Not legal advice, but try to build up a case and the resources to get custody of your child beforehand if you decide to split. My ex has custody of our kid, and while she is a terrible mom, she isn't quite terrible enough for me to get custody. Something to keep in mind if you do decide to split is that there may be the possibility that she will raise this child for significant portions of his life without any moderating influence. If she is as you say she is, that is something to think about. To say nothing of what other influences will enter your child's life when she starts dating again. 50-50 custody is still plenty of time to mess a kid up.

I don't really see where this comes from. She is an excelent mother, I don't think I've said anything on the contrary. And I seriously doubt we'd come to blows over custody. Either way, even if I wanted to, there'd be nothing to argue against her having custody, although I would certainly try to get 50-50.

Xapi throwing in my voice to the whole "staying together for the kids" is the worst thing you can do for a child
It's a thousand times worse growing up with parents who fight all the time and are bitter than growing up with separated parents

I think you guys may have misinterpreted me. I didn't mean to "stay together for the kids", although I think there's a chance we would have been apart during this brief separation if it weren't for our son. I mean, you do things differently when there's a child in the middle, you make sure you're certain what you're going to do before you actually act on it. This doesn't mean you'd make a different desition in the end.

What I meant is that it would be an absolute let down for me if we were ever separated, because I really want to give our son a happy family with strong ties.

[Aedilred]

Meh. I understand most people wouldn't accept this, but I like to be a man who says what he thinks and does what he says. I have nothing to hide. I have on some ocasions thought that giving her all this info is a way of feeding her issues, but it's too late to change now, and I don't really know if I want to, or if it would benefit anyone.

It probably is a bit late to change it now too extensively, but it's a matter of principle and sign that something isn't entirely right. In the healthiest of relationships, I'd say, both parties should be completely open with each other, but both parties should also trust each other and respect their privacy. So, they don't need to go nosing around in each other's private affairs because they don't feel they need to in order to verify what their partner's doing, and they trust their partner will tell them if anything happens that they need to know about. Obviously that's difficult to get right, but the closer to that the better I think. Even if one party in a relationship is perfectly happy to have no secrets, as you apparently are, that the other is insisting on having access to what is in essence none of their business is a sign that something's wrong, imo at least.

I don't really see where this comes from. She is an excelent mother, I don't think I've said anything on the contrary. And I seriously doubt we'd come to blows over custody. Either way, even if I wanted to, there'd be nothing to argue against her having custody, although I would certainly try to get 50-50.

I can see where Crow's coming from. It's one of those things that you never think about and then it's too late to deal with it. It's like the old pre-nuptial agreement issue - whatever you think of them, if you're splitting up, the time to agree division of assets in a mutually acceptable manner has already passed, and what ensues is acrimony and bitterness.

Crow obviously speaks from experience here, and trusting that it'll be different for you doesn't always work. You might be happy for her to have custody now (although you say you'd like 50-50, which she has no reason necessarily to agree to) but what about a year down the line, five years, etc? It's something to bear in mind because while it's obviously better if you can remain on good terms, once a relationship's ended then when it comes to the important stuff like children people don't take prisoners and you need to be looking out for yourself and your child.

Of course, it looks like you won't be splitting up anyway, which if it's what you want is good, so it's not immediately relevant. But it might be worth bearing in mind if it happens in future.

[Lissou]

I do think that level of sharing can be a problem. It wouldn't be fail-proof either: if she ever ended up with someone untrustworthy, that people could easily create a fake email, for one quick solution to get around her scrutiny. This level of access/control will never make up for trust, and will not cause her to trust more.

I don't think it's something you can personally or should single-handedly "fix" but she would probably be a much happier person if she could get that issue sorted out. It's not about being trustworthy or not. It's about the fact that constantly watching over someone, trying to find proof that they've betrayed you, is stressful, exhausting and makes you trust them less and less (the less stuff you find, the more you think they're just hiding it somewhere else).

Now I'm not a typical person as far as privacy goes. I have the password to my husband's email and I did for my ex too, for instance. I just don't check it. I could if there was an emergency and I needed to check it, and that's why we know each other's passwords, but we just don't check (in his case, I wouldn't be surprised if he forgot mine to begin with, quite honestly.)
We also have an app on our phones to track each other with GPS, which a lot of people would probably find creepy but works well for us because he used to constantly forget to say things like "I'm going to spend the evening with such friend" and I would freak out that he had a crash on the way home from work, call but he was busy and didn't hear it... after we got the GPS I could take a look and see he was at so and so's place.
If I had wanted to make sure he wasn't cheating, that would not have worked though. He would have just needed to leave his phone somewhere and go elsewhere. So that's not a fix for mistrust. It's a fix for other types of paranoia.

Nowadays he's pretty good about letting me know so I have no idea when I checked it last. As for him, he constantly forgets he has it. He does check my google calendar to know what time I get home though.

Anyways, my point is, I'm not a super private person in relationships, we technically have access to pretty much everything. But I don't go onto his computer (which he leaves on all day), I don't check his email, I don't read his texts. And I trust he doesn't do it the other way around either. I think being trustworthy is one thing, and it's obviously very good in a relationship. But being trusted is very important for intimacy as well (I don't mean physical intimacy necessarily).

You also say you have a kid, and I would worry that she might give him less privacy as he might need as well when he grows older, which is why I think it would be good for her to get better about it as soon as possible.

As for your relationship, I'm glad you seem to have sorted things out for now. There isn't much you can personally do except show through your actions that you're a trustworthy person. The rest will have to be on her side of things. Trusting requires taking risks, and it's scary, and you will never, never be sure without the shadow of a doubt that you are right to trust someone. But that first step is much scarier before you take it than it is afterwards. And the level of comfort and stability you gain is worth it. I hope she manages to take that step because it will be better for everyone in the long run.

[Stadge]

Hi there Playgrounders...

I don't mean to be a pain, but would anyone be willing to try and help a Stadge with his current woes/concerns?

I think part of it could be put here, but I also think some of it may not be entirely board appropriate, so if anyone would be willing to talk via PM it would be most appreciated. I will of course give a quick run through of the kind of things it concerns before dumping too much info on anyone.

Cheers muchly

[Xapi]

Hi there Playgrounders...

I don't mean to be a pain, but would anyone be willing to try and help a Stadge with his current woes/concerns?

I think part of it could be put here, but I also think some of it may not be entirely board appropriate, so if anyone would be willing to talk via PM it would be most appreciated. I will of course give a quick run through of the kind of things it concerns before dumping too much info on anyone.

Cheers muchly

If your current woe isn't urgent (I have a wedding tomorrow that will occupy all of my day and part of Sunday in the form of sleep) I can lend you a virtual ear.

[zeifly]

Okay...so this is a pretty complicated, but at the same time relatively simple, situation. It's kind of uncomfortable to talk about in public, but I'll try. There's this girl who I love more than anything else in the world. She has feelings for me as well. She agreed to go on a date with me, but, unfortunately, there are a couple of problems. First of all, we live about 3 hours apart which makes it hard to see each other. Second problem, we both have crazy busy schedules which makes it hard to find a day to have the date on. Plus she has back problems which means it hurts for her to be in a car for an extended period of time. She's going through some pretty hard time, and I wish I could do more for her. Does anyone have any advice for me. Any at all would be fantastic! Thanks guys (and girls).

Never stop rolling!

-Z

[Thy Dungeonman]

I once spent a few months in a relationship where we were only able to see each other a total of less than six days. She lived on the opposite side of a mountain range from me. Did the distance kill the relationship? Maybe. But the time we spent physically together was smokin' hot. *tssssss* I get to remember that forever.

[Crow]

Okay...so this is a pretty complicated, but at the same time relatively simple, situation. It's kind of uncomfortable to talk about in public, but I'll try. There's this girl who I love more than anything else in the world. She has feelings for me as well. She agreed to go on a date with me, but, unfortunately, there are a couple of problems. First of all, we live about 3 hours apart which makes it hard to see each other. Second problem, we both have crazy busy schedules which makes it hard to find a day to have the date on. Plus she has back problems which means it hurts for her to be in a car for an extended period of time. She's going through some pretty hard time, and I wish I could do more for her. Does anyone have any advice for me. Any at all would be fantastic! Thanks guys (and girls).

Never stop rolling!

-Z

I have advice, but you're not going to like it (as is the case I suspect for most whom I give advice on this thread).

You tell me that you love this girl more than anything else in the world, and that she has "feelings" for you as well. She agreed to go on a date with you.

This is very strange. The implication is that you guys have not dated before. Maybe this is some longtime friends situation? I don't know. But given what information you have given us;

I seriously doubt that you are in love with this girl. This sounds like an infatuation. Ok no problem, you will grow to love one another with time;

Which you do not have. Three hours is a fairly long way, especially in a new relationship. You're basically going to have to dedicate your whole weekend (or burn the candle at both ends) any time you want to spend quality time together. I don't know what your weekends are like, but for a lot of people that means putting other things on the back burner for later, and hoping they don't pile up. Now some people who have been together for a while can *sometimes* make a long-distance relationship work, provided there is some end in sight, or some plan to close that distance at some point. If this does not exist, the relationship will fizzle and die, both parties nearly invariably ending up with someone else more local. But ok, you guys can make sacrifices in order to see each other more often;

Except she can't. This means that *you* are going to be the one making the biggest investments in mitigating the distance of this relationship. Adding to that she is going through a pretty hard time, so there is going to also be the strain on both of you in dealing with whatever that entails.

All in all, it sounds like you guys are just not in the right position to make something like this work. Were I in your situation, I would hold off until circumstances were more favorable to give a relationship with this girl a chance to actually work. To be something both of you can enjoy and not have to stress over. Relationships can be stressful at times anyways, and having a bevy of external factors adding to that stress are very likely to do them in. Think of the castle built on a swamp. Do you want to build a castle just to watch it sink into the swamp?

If you really love this girl (which I am not sure you do), you should recognize that you will only be hurting each other by pursuing a relationship right now. If you intend to do so anyways, you MUST be willing to close that distance gap ASAP. If you don't...well enjoy your stress and eventual heartbreak.

Sorry for the advice. Best of luck.

[Thy Dungeonman]

I'll go the antiromance of the last poster one more and say this - I don't believe love is real, in the sense it is usually portrayed, as a quasi-mystic experience that must begin and end in important ways. My love life improved greatly when I ditched the cultural baggage of expectations that come with "love." I say the word often enough, I mean it, but I'm not pinning my life or anyone else's on it.

So do the romantic thing as far as driving yourself 3 hours each way to spend time, if they're cool with it. Say what you feel if that includes L words or whatever. But be ready for that to end and be OK with it, for real.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, pretty much what Crow said. A similar setup with the time constraint and distance and hecticness in the life of the other person is what lead to my deciding that pursuing them at that time was not ideal.

Granted, I'm still kicking myself for that, because I had been considering moving to that place anyway, I still haven't gotten over her, and she started dating someone else who was more local to her who ended up abusing her and is now stalking her. But, y'know, that last bit was her choice, not mine.

Of course, I also had no indication that I'd have any real difficulty moving on at the time, either.

[Aedilred]

Sense

Yeah, I agree with all of this.

Think of the castle built on a swamp. Do you want to build a castle just to watch it sink into the swamp?

It could be worthwhile if one party has sufficiently huge tracts of land.

I'll go the antiromance of the last poster one more and say this - I don't believe love is real, in the sense it is usually portrayed, as a quasi-mystic experience that must begin and end in important ways. My love life improved greatly when I ditched the cultural baggage of expectations that come with "love." I say the word often enough, I mean it, but I'm not pinning my life or anyone else's on it.

Not sure I agree with this though. I think when it comes to this sort of thing everyone has to a degree to find their own level, and trying to dismiss the whole concept of love probably isn't going to help anyone. I didn't read Crow's post as antiromantic, just realistic under these circumstances: the "long-distance" part of "long-distance relationship" tends to be a fundamental flaw, and the other implications in this instance including that it's not a pre-existing relationship make that even more significant; and the state of the existing relationship seems to be insufficiently developed to be slinging "love" around too liberally. It doesn't necessarily have any negative implications for shorter-distance relationships or love more generally.

[Thy Dungeonman]

Fair enough. My wisdom comes from the wintry plains of the Real, where few are cold enough to tread. It's possible to be happy and romantically fulfilled out here, but it isn't for everyone.

[Sholos]

What does feeling sad that a person is no longer around (often to the point of crying about realizing that they won't ever be around much anymore) and consistently having dreams about them mean? Might also be relevant that I've had a crush on this person since meeting them.

[Crow]

What does feeling sad that a person is no longer around (often to the point of crying about realizing that they won't ever be around much anymore) and consistently having dreams about them mean? Might also be relevant that I've had a crush on this person since meeting them.

It means that you have unfinished business with this person in your heart. It means it is time to talk to this person and get those feelings off your chest and into the open.

[Astrella]

How do you know if you're in love?

[Philemonite]

How do you know if you're in love?

Butterflies.
A very strong desire to be in someone's company. Slight confusion and other similar feelings when you are in someone's presence. Constantly thinking about someone for no apparent reason. That's what I think. I could be wrong.

[Castaras]

Love, to me, is when you can see someone has flaws but that doesn't matter because they are fantastic.

... I probably worded that badly, but it's the difference between the feelings you have when starting a relationship with someone and the feelings you have after 2/3 years in a relationship with someone. To start with, and when you have a crush on someone, you generally put them up on a pedestal and go "This person is the greatest in the universe, nothing is wrong with them they are perfect in every way." As time goes by, the rose tinted lenses of the start of love go away, and you see that they might be a bit arrogant, or maybe a bit passive - and love is when that doesn't matter to you, because that's what makes them the person they are that you find to be awesome.


... yep. Still worded badly. I hope people get what I mean.

[Astrella]

I just like... okay, so I'm in a long distance relationship with a girl in England. I haven't seen her since April though. :c I just, I keep second-guessing my feelings and being confused about them. I want to be near her, I want to hold her, want to have her smell in my nose again, want to lie in her arms, want to make her smile and just, everything, she has the most adorable expressions.

I think it's partially just me self-sabotaging cause of self-esteem, I feel often that I'm not good enough for her, and my anxiety / avoidancy issues often make me want to pull away from people because I'm afraid I'll hurt them or bother them.

[Castaras]

I just like... okay, so I'm in a long distance relationship with a girl in England. I haven't seen her since April though. :c I just, I keep second-guessing my feelings and being confused about them. I want to be near her, I want to hold her, want to have her smell in my nose again, want to lie in her arms, want to make her smile and just, everything, she has the most adorable expressions.

I think it's partially just me self-sabotaging cause of self-esteem, I feel often that I'm not good enough for her, and my anxiety / avoidancy issues often make me want to pull away from people because I'm afraid I'll hurt them or bother them.

That's love. That's definitely love.

[Amaril]

How long would people say is enough time before one can really say they're in love? Seems like pretty much everyone says it takes a long time, but does it have to if all other signs point to the same place sooner?

[Aedilred]

How long would people say is enough time before one can really say they're in love? Seems like pretty much everyone says it takes a long time, but does it have to if all other signs point to the same place sooner?

The problem is that when in the throes of infatuation - or indeed love - the signs are very easy to misread, especially when the definition is so nebulous, and there's certainly no way to pin down a universal time frame. I would say at least a couple of months, but it also depends how well you know the person. If you're just admiring them from afar then any amount of time probably isn't enough on its own.

[Amaril]

The problem is that when in the throes of infatuation - or indeed love - the signs are very easy to misread, especially when the definition is so nebulous, and there's certainly no way to pin down a universal time frame. I would say at least a couple of months, but it also depends how well you know the person. If you're just admiring them from afar then any amount of time probably isn't enough on its own.

Alright, thanks. That definitely helps

[Coidzor]

How do you know if you're in love?

You won't until well after it's happened. So if you're aware of it starting, then that's not love. Possibly it's just not love yet.

How long would people say is enough time before one can really say they're in love? Seems like pretty much everyone says it takes a long time, but does it have to if all other signs point to the same place sooner?

There's no hard and fast rule. The key is to not do anything stupid or to damage/throw yourself away over someone you just met, relatively speaking.

I believe the key to many things in this life seem to be "don't do anything stupid." I suppose the principle difficulty lies in differeing definitions of stupidity and entering into altered mental states where our stupidity filters are compromised.

I just like... okay, so I'm in a long distance relationship with a girl in England. I haven't seen her since April though. :c I just, I keep second-guessing my feelings and being confused about them. I want to be near her, I want to hold her, want to have her smell in my nose again, want to lie in her arms, want to make her smile and just, everything, she has the most adorable expressions.

I think it's partially just me self-sabotaging cause of self-esteem, I feel often that I'm not good enough for her, and my anxiety / avoidancy issues often make me want to pull away from people because I'm afraid I'll hurt them or bother them.

If that's not love, what does it matter? You want to spend more time with her and you're dating even if it's long distance. Managing to satisfy the desire for proximity should give you your answer better than anything you can think your way towards or that we can tell you.

[Sholos]

It means that you have unfinished business with this person in your heart. It means it is time to talk to this person and get those feelings off your chest and into the open.

Sadly I don't think that's an option. She's married and living in a whole different town. I just wish I could cut off these feelings and have them towards someone else.

[sktarq]

How do you know if you're in love?

that you would rather spend time with them rather than just about anything else.
That you find their smile to far more important than logic could ever support.

Your description seems a pretty good hit.

[Lissou]

An update on my situation: we have been hanging out for hours every day that we both work and get along great. Today we also talked through IM and I told him I was interested. He said that it was a lot to process as he really didn't expect it, but he seemed interested. He also said that I didn't need to worry about him feeling harassed and that he liked me a lot.

Then he gave me his schedule for this week so we can arrange meeting up, and I gave him mine. We ended up saying bye before making definite plans but we have a few options.

Going to try and take it slow as he seemed overwhelmed, but overall I'm pretty excited and happy. He didn't straight out reject me and seemed to actually want to give it a try. My being nonmonogamous came up and he said I should have started with that, so I think that's a good sign.

I figured I'd update you since you were nice enough to help me with the situation :) I still think telling him outright before we spent more time hanging out and getting to know each other would have been too much, but I'm glad I eventually told him.

EDIT: Oh, and he said he was glad I told him, too, that it would have taken a huge sign otherwise for him to get it.

[dehro]

My being nonmonogamous came up and he said I should have started with that, so I think that's a good sign.
...Oh, and he said he was glad I told him, too, that it would have taken a huge sign otherwise for him to get it.

one bit is worth for you to remember for next time you should find yourself in that situation..

the other is worth taking note of for.. everybody.

[Oneris]

Why does it seem that there's no middle ground between 'Stranger' and 'Girlfriend'? I don't know how many times I've been approached by a friendly person, spend a few days time with them finding we have much in common, only for them to promptly leave and disavow all enjoyment of my company as soon as I've expressed I'm not interested in starting a romantic relationship. Has our time together not proven I'm 'friend' material?

[Sholos]

Why does it seem that there's no middle ground between 'Stranger' and 'Girlfriend'? I don't know how many times I've been approached by a friendly person, spend a few days time with them finding we have much in common, only for them to promptly leave and disavow all enjoyment of my company as soon as I've expressed I'm not interested in starting a romantic relationship. Has our time together not proven I'm 'friend' material?

I don't really get this response, but maybe that's because I think that a romantic partner should also be a friend and if you gain a friend then things haven't gone too badly. Admittedly I have a terrible track record of actually gaining friends and a worse track record of gaining romantic partners, so maybe I don't really know anything. My best advice is to forget people like that and move on to better ones. I do wish I knew someone like you that was actually interested in hanging out as friends after deciding there was no romantic interest.

[Feytalist]

Why does it seem that there's no middle ground between 'Stranger' and 'Girlfriend'? I don't know how many times I've been approached by a friendly person, spend a few days time with them finding we have much in common, only for them to promptly leave and disavow all enjoyment of my company as soon as I've expressed I'm not interested in starting a romantic relationship. Has our time together not proven I'm 'friend' material?

It's a common problem. Somehow - whether it's by pop culture or by societal conditioning - people have been molded to believe that (especially in romantically "compatible" relationships) there is no stopping point between "friend" and "romantic partner". I've seen it many times. It's either "girlfriend", "potential girlfriend", or "nothing". Annoying, sure. You have to break through that conditioning. (I wouldn't be able to say how you do that, though )