Warhammer Fantasy Thread VI: The Undiscovered Country

[LCP]

I think the new treemen would look alright with a more naturalistic paintjob. I agree though about them not quite looking treelike enough. Possibly that could be fixed by a bit of conversion work with parts from the Citadel wood. The rotating pictures show they've got thickets of smaller branches around the shoulders, they just need some big boughs to mix in and I think they'll look a lot more like trees.

Not a fan of the dynamic poses, though. Only the base treeman looks sufficiently ponderous.

[hamishspence]

The first iteration of the treeman was much less branchy:

http://www.solegends.com/marauder/mb14treemen.htm

[LCP]

I know ‐ I've got one of those in the attic! I think all the whippy twigs etc. are one of the advantages of doing it as a current generation plastic kit.

[Winterwind]

They tend to spread releases out across the first three weeks of a month these days - maybe they'll do it here?

Treeman and that character this week- maybe something else next week, and the week after?

Or maybe they are doing it like they did it with Tyranids in their 5th edition codex (and Dark Eldar, too, I think) - include all sorts of units in the book which there is no official model for, wait to see if the army as a whole is well liked, and then release the models many, many months later, if it turns out there actually is demand.

The first iteration of the treeman was much less branchy:

http://www.solegends.com/marauder/mb14treemen.htm

Awww, that's adorable.

[hamishspence]

Or maybe they are doing it like they did it with Tyranids in their 5th edition codex (and Dark Eldar, too, I think) - include all sorts of units in the book which there is no official model for, wait to see if the army as a whole is well liked, and then release the models many, many months later, if it turns out there actually is demand.

I doubt it - wasn't doing that the cause of the whole Chapterhouse debacle?

I could see the current policy with the Nid codex and the Guard codex (characters there isn't a modern model for, getting removed) being the result of this.

[Eldan]

The first iteration of the treeman was much less branchy:

http://www.solegends.com/marauder/mb14treemen.htm

Huh. YOu know, I've never seen those before, but I actually kinda like them. It's one of the less goofy looking treemen I've seen.

[hamishspence]

Better than the old Durthu model?

[Eldan]

Do you mean this guy?



Doesn't look too great.

[hamishspence]

Maybe the old Treemen could pass for Treekin?

[LCP]

Size-wise, sure. They're not too big.

EDIT: Found a scale reference: link.

[Winterwind]

So apparently there have been some more Wood Elf picture leaks - in any case, a friend linked me this.

...I think I'll be spending a lot of money, soon.

[hamishspence]

So apparently there have been some more Wood Elf picture leaks - in any case, a friend linked me this.

...I think I'll be spending a lot of money, soon.

Those do look nice.

Maybe tomorrow, those with the books can do a rundown of what's changed and what's mostly the same?

[Winterwind]

Those do look nice.

Maybe tomorrow, those with the books can do a rundown of what's changed and what's mostly the same?

I most certainly intend to do so; I'll try to get my hands on a book tomorrow, but I'm not sure I'll manage to, though (if I don't, I'll probably get one on Monday).

[Eldan]

I've actually seen teh book already. There's some really nice changes and some utterly terrible changes. Dryads are pretty much useless now, they lost everything good.

On the other hand, wood elves get 10 lores of magic now (the eight core lores plus white and black), there's six kinds of magic arrows, a few nice types of new units and they get the special combat rules of both high elves (fight from an additional rank) and dark elves (reroll to wound), as long as they are in a fores.t

Oh, and you get to choose what forests do.

[Elhann]

Those do look nice.

Maybe tomorrow, those with the books can do a rundown of what's changed and what's mostly the same?

I have the book, and I'm very disappointed. Wasted potential.

Not about the rules, as I'd need some games before I judge them, but the fluff is horrible, even for GW standards. Remember when people were joking about that Grey Kinght guy carving some demon's heart? Well, you can consider Orion and Ariel almost killing Morathi in her own home in Grond the woodie version of it. Except instead of being totally awesome, Orion wanted to kill the wicked witch, while Ariel accepted learning Dark magic and saving Morathi's pale but perfectly shaped buttocks.
And going almost crazy afterwards and not allowing Orion to revive. Gah.

The worst part IMHO is that the book feels horribly lazy. Remember when mobility was everything in their play style? When we had our own unique magic Lore?
Well, those things are gone. Wood elves were very different from their high and dark cousins. Now, the biggest incentive for playing woodies instead of other elves is because you like painting green better than painting white or purple.

Dryads have gone from an extremely mobile unit, to magic ghouls. Having no access to anything like a musician, they are THE clunkiest block of infantry in the game. Losing a pip of ward save, even if it is not conditional anymore may hurt. Losing a point of strength hurts for sure.

But then, if dryads were still as strong as before, people wouldn't want to include (and buy) Eternal guard. They're slightly better elven spearmen - except their prowress is having AP instead of whatever their cousins get. The rule that gives them great abilities while inside a wood is frankly stupid. In ALL my games of 8th, I have yet to have more than 4 combats inside woods. Woop-dee-doo. Other thing I don't like: Shields. But that's a pet peeve, I liked that EG used their fighting style to get what was essentialy LA+Shield. I KNOW it is but a cosmetic change, but I liked that it gave them some unique personality.

Glade guard have lost any reason to move. There's no bonus for being in short range, their arrows are always AP. They have arrow upgrades, of which poisoned shots will be the most popular, I think. Since I don't like list tailoring, I despise the fact that two of the upgrades are the same, and even cost the same, only one works against good armies, and the other works against evil ones.

Glade riders are the ones that feel less a tax, as they're reasonably priced now. Or at least, more reasonably priced than their 24 points of old. If ambush were optional, I'd be happier. I like my shooty things shooting from the start. But GR only needed a points drop, and they got it.

Scouts are special now, and they're cheaper too. Only a point more expensive than glade guard, and they have the same options as their non skirmishing, non scouting cousins.

Warhawk riders look better than before (The hawk is T4, so they ARE better than before) until you realize that they're even more expensive than before, and their fragility makes them only desirable to hunt chaff. Anything that can strike back will be hurting them a lot.

Wardancers are cheaper and feel more or less the same. Except there is no way to bump their strength by themselves. Of course, get mindrazor on them, select the extra attack dance, and watch as EVERYTHING dies before them. I think they are usable, IF you know how to use them (a thing I like) instead of "unneeded in a world where dryads were better in every aspect for 2/3s the price".

Treekin are much cheaper now (think 2/3 of their old cost), while losing the same as dryads. S4 monstrous infantry doesn't look so appealing to me, but their points cost may give them some use.

Or it would, if it wasn't for Wild riders. 3 S5 AP (re-rollable against pretty much everything) attacks on the charge from the rider is nothing to sneeze at. If frenzy works for mounts too (I'm not sure about that), their ride adds 2 S4 attacks, making them hit very strong. Frenzy is not such a drawback when they're Ld9, and Forest striding fast cavalry is great. Kurnous likes his blessed ones.

Isha doesn't get such a sweet unit, although hers is not bad. Sisters of the Thorn are good harrassers with their poisoned AP javelins. They get a nice control spell (curse of Anraheir), and a frankly lacklustre one (Shield of thorns). Of course, if your stubborn eternal guard is engaged in combat, adding 2d6 S3 hits to their output is nice, so well.
As long as you don't compare them to their dark elf cousins, they're ok. But then, Doomfire warlocks are pretty much mandatory.

Wildwood rangers feel like the poor elf's great wepaon wielding unit. Terribly fragile (onle a 6+ AS, which is the same as nothing), they must look for the nastiest looking thing in the battlefield to get a second attack, and hope they can kill it before it kills them. The models are sweet, though. And reasonably costed for GWs standards.

On the rare section, things look much nicer.

Great eagles are the same as before. They don't get options like HE eagles, but hey. 50 points for such an amazing and versatile unit? you took two before, you'll be taking two now.

Treemen also got the dryad treatment (1 point of strength less, ward save nerf), but they got 60 points cheaper (40 if you take strangleroot, which is more or less a chariot charge if you use it) AND they have 1 point of extra leadership. If S5 is enough for your needs, good. If you can get a buff on them, better.

Waywatchers are pricy (not as expensive as they were before, though) but hey. Instead of killing blow at short range, negating armour saves from anywhere? Or shooting twice if there are no knights nearby? Welcome back to the game, waywatchers.

Characters...
Highborn and nobles have a different name, but they're the same. Instead of being able to get heavy armour, they get a free S3, no AS HIT on the enemy general if they're 36" apart. If you're lucky, you get to see if they have a ward save. If you're VERY lucky, the enemy general starts the game mising one of his wounds. The reason before this is that woodies don't start the battle until their best shot has marked the enemy general as prey. So a characterful rule (and your BSB CAN use it, so you don't need a Glade Lord for it) I like it.

Spellsingers can take any of the BRB lores, and don't cost a kidney, points wise. Their longbow becomes optional. Spellweavers can also take high and dark magic. Rules wise, great (as you'll be needing magic support for most of your units). I find it HORRIBLY lazy, though. Lore ot Athel Loren was pants, but the right solution IMHO would have been redoing it, instead of allowing spellweavers more versatility than any other wizard in the game.
And I can give the same reasons for wood elves getting metal or fire than dark elves getting light or life. None at all.

Branchwraiths are cheaper than before, and come with Lore of Life. Stick them in a dryad unit, and with the signature life spell you won't miss their ward save anymore. (I think that's not the most points effective use of your hero alotment, but you may have converted a couple of branchwraiths in the past and you'd like people to see them...)

We get two special heroes, a wardancer++ (that you can upgrade to be a Level 1 shadow wizard for a hefty tax) and a wayatcher++, that gets the same rules as waywatchers, and also gets to pick the model he likes for target practice. That mage inside a unit? Poor him, his buddies won't protect him. Both look situational, but usable if you want them.

Ancients lose WS and Attacks for a point of strength (so S6 thunderstomp is their best bet in combat), and LD10. And being level 2 Life users (which you can upgrade to Lv4, which is good, as Life is a Lore you want 4 levels or nothing). They're cheaper than before unless you get crazy with magic levels. On the bad side, they cannot get magic items and spites are gone.

Special characters.
Araloth pains me. A guy with a hawk in the WE army? Why isn't his name Skaw?
Durthu is a combat ancient. Which brings a level of Beast magic. If you get savage beast, watch him destroy everything in his path. If you get anything else, default to Wildform, and destroy less things.
Orion is a greater Daemon of Kurnous. the best thing anout him is that he gives the +1A on the charge rule to any unit at 6" from him every turn. The worst thing is that he is so expensive, you need a 2500 game to get him and his puppies, and doing so prevents taking a Spellweaver.

Drycha is not bad. Because she gives you deepstriking treemen. And because she is a lv2 shadow wizard.
The Twilight sisters are weird as the were before. It seems that riding their eagle and shooting things is their best use.
I miss a Wizard special character (Ariel, Naieth, or Thalandor Doomstar), and would have liked Wychwethyl the wild or Scarloc as the special Shadowdancer/Waystalker, but since I never use Special Characters, that's not a big deal.

[Winterwind]

Well, Elhann already did one, but I'll make a write-up of my own anyway.

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Special Rules

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So first and foremost, notably, Asrai Archery is gone. Just gone. Wood Elves get penalties for moving and shooting just like everybody else now. And there are no more units that get special effects when shooting at half range, either.

On the plus side, all Wood Elf longbows and spears get Armour Piercing now.

Like the other elves, Wood Elves now also all have Always Strikes First.

All Wood Elf wizards (except for Sisters of the Thorn) get +1 to casting attempts while they are in forests.

Forest Spirits basically function the same as before, except they now always have a 6+ ward save, instead of a situational 5+ ward save. Also, non-Forest Spirits can join Forest Spirit units now just fine, and vice versa.

The elves all get a special rule that gives them Forest Striders, as well as the special rules of both High Elves and Dark Elves as long as they are in a forest (so, attacking/shooting from one additional rank, and re-rolling 1s to wound in close combat).

Wood Elves still get to place one bonus forest within their deployment zone; however, now it's a Citadel forest (which are quite a bit bigger than the "6 inch diameter"-forest allowed by the old rules. Furthermore, the Wood Elf player gets to choose what kind of forest that is going to be (so, it will be a Venom Thicket 100% of the time).

Enchanted arrows are a special item type - they are enchanted items, but a model with them may still take a different, regular enchanted item, and they don't count against a character model's limit for magic item points. They are all still Armour Piercing, and have some special effect in addition; the options are:

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- instead of just giving a penalty of 1 on armour saves, give a penalty of 3
- Multiple Shots (2)
- Poison
- do not suffer any to hit penalties whatsoever
- Flaming, and get +1 to Wound if the target unit is mainly composed of models from a Forces of Order armybook
- Flaming, and get +1 to Wound if the target unit is mainly composed of models from a Forces of Destruction armybook

Lords & Heroes

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Highborn/Nobles
Nobles and Highborn are pretty much unchanged, other than Kins being gone. The lack of Kins is, to some degree, made up for by the inclusion of two new hero types, which are basically a hero Wardancer and a hero Waywatcher. The Wardancer can be upgraded to be a level 1 Shadow wizard, and the Waywatcher hero gets to pick which models he hits. However, both of these specialty heroes only have a 25 points allowance for magic items, which kind of makes them a lot less useful (and, weirdly enough, they cannot take enchanted arrows, unlike regular Nobles/Highborn). Only the regular Noble can be a BSB; being a BSB no longer takes away the longbow, nor does it limit the Noble's item options anymore (other than the usual "magic banner => no magic items" limitation).

Spellweavers/Spellsingers
The wizards have gotten slighty cheaper (well, a respectable 30 points cheaper in the Spellweaver's case), though they no longer have bows (they can buy them back for a small amount of points, though). The Hero level wizard has access to all of the core lores, the Lord level one can additionally select High or Dark Magic, though with new, Wood Elf specific lore attributes: High Magic creates counters beside the mage and his unit; each time the unit is successfully wounded, one marker is removed and the wound is automatically prevented. Dark Magic generates counters beside the respective spell's target unit(s), if they are hostile; any subsequent Dark Magic spell that creates hits then uses up those counters to generate +1d3 hits per counter.

Branchwraith
The Branchwraith is still the same, except she's automatically a level 1 Life Wizard now, and gets Hatred. She's slightly more expensive than before, but much, much cheaper than she used to be when one upgraded her to a wizard. Sadly, since there are no more spites, she now lacks any customization options whatsoever.

Treeman Ancient
Ancients are no longer just better Treemen - they are actually worse at fighting than regular Treemen, with only 3 attacks and WS4. Like all Forest Spirits, their Strength has also dropped by 1. However, they now have Leadership 10 (which is nice, since they are still Stubborn), and are automatically level 2 Life wizards (with the option to upgrade them to level 3 or 4). They are also 35 points cheaper than they used to be. They no longer automatically have their shooting attack, but can be upgraded to have an S5 Multiple Shots(1d6+1) attack with 12" range; however, since they take all the penalties for multiple shots, movement, range etc., and since this upgrade is rather costly, I very much doubt it's in any way worth it.

Mounts
There are still the exact same mounts as before. The only change is with the Forest Dragon: It's Breath attack, in addition to the usual S2 hits with armour penalty 3, also permanently give the targets Stupidity. It doesn't even have to wound for that - anything hit by the Breath weapon automatically gains Stupidity. Which is amusing, I guess. Also, it's a Forest Spirit now, so it gets a 6+ ward save. Which, actually, is pretty damn nice, given that it actually went down in cost a little.

Troops

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Glade Guard
Still cost exactly the same, trading Asrai Archery and +1S when shooting at close targets for Armour Piercing, Always Strikes First and all of the benefits Wood Elves now get in forests. Much more interestingly, the whole unit can be upgraded to be equipped with any one of the enchanted arrows (for between 3 and 5 points per model, depending on arrow type). This, of course, makes Glade Guard shooting quite a bit more potent once again, and allows them to specialize in some way.

Dryads
They are no longer Skirmishers, which may be good or bad. However, like all Forest Spirits, they now have one point of Strength less than they used to, so they are no longer stronger than the elves (and their Initiative is down to 5 as well). Which... kind of makes them bad. Them gaining Hatred and becoming cheaper by 1 point does not even come close to make up for it, especially if you consider that their save has also gotten worse. I'm not sure they are exactly useless now, but I most certainly will be using them much less now, if at all.

Glade Riders
Are actually looking pretty good now. They have gotten cheaper by a whole 5 points, gained Always Strike First, Armour Piercing (on both their shooting and their close combat), and, really amazingly, Ambush - which should make them great for hunting warmachines or hitting enemy units from behind. Also, they, too, have access to the enchanted arrows (for the same price as Glade Guard, too, which amounts to much less for them, relatively speaking). I'm pretty sure they should be worth it now.

Eternal Guard
Hoo boy. They still retain their WS5 and Leadership 9, get Always Strike First, the usual forest benefits, Armour Piercing on their spears, and are now always Core and Stubborn. And yet, I'm pretty sure they are still the worst unit in the armybook - they still cost the same (well, one point less, but they now need to buy shields to get to their old 5+ armour save, which puts them back even), no longer have two attacks from the first rank, and let's be frank, benefits for being in forests are stupidly anti-synergistic with being a rank-and-file-unit. Between their low Strength and having less attacks than they used to, I don't see them being of much use - I'd probably actually rather go with Dryads still, those at least have superiour Toughness. A great shame.

Special

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Deepwood Scouts
Are simply what used to be called Wood Elf Scouts - Glade Guard who are Skirmishers and Scouts. While they moved from Core to Special, they now cost only one point more than Glade Guard do, and also have the option to take enchanted arrows. Which means they are actually pretty good now - if no more Core points are needed, and there are still Special points left over, there isn't all that much reason not to upgrade a unit of Glade Guard to Deepwood Scouts now.

Treekin
Like all Forest Spirits, lost a point of Strength (and of course suffered their ward save getting worse). They are still the same otherwise, and cost 10 points less - which at least keeps them amongst the most survivable monstrous infatry, if nothing else. Probably still worth it.

Wardancers
Three points cheaper, still the same, amazing stat-line, and of course Always Strike First (extra nice on Initative 6 models!). They no longer get +1S when charging, but their dances are better and they get one more to make up for it:

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- Killing Blow and Armour Piercing
- +1A
- 3+ ward save (yes, 3+)
- enemies in base contact lose rank bonus (not Steadfast, though)
-

They can upgrade their two handweapons to a single spear (which then, of course, has Armour Piercing); I don't really see this being worth it pretty much ever. Should be pretty good now.

Warhawk Riders
Five points more expensive, and no longer have their hit-and-run special rules; on the plus side, have gained +1T and +1W, and the hawks themselves now have one attack more, Armour Piercing and, on the turn they charge, Killing Blow. In other words, a fairly considerable damage increase (especially if taking the Always Strikes First and Armour Piercing of the rider into account), but they remain very expensive for such a fragile model. Not sure what to think of these.

Wild Riders
The big, big, big winners of the armybook. They still cost the same, but now get Frenzy and +1A when charging (so, that's three attacks from the rider alone, with Always Strike First and Armour Piercing to back it up). Their mounts also have gained 1S, to make them hurt even more. They can also now be upgraded to take shields, which I guess compensates for their ward save dropping to 6+ a little (they actually aren't forest spirits anymore, but get a 6+ ward save from their protective tattoos, just like Wardancers). I'm pretty sure those are going to be the Wood Elves' new blender-units.

Sisters of the Thorn
And now we're finally getting to one of the new units - the Sisters of the Thorn are another type of Fast Cavalry, for the exact same point cost as Wild Riders, but fulfilling a very different (if not quite as clearly defined) role. They have no armour, but a very respectable 4+ ward save, which should provide them a fair measure of protection; while they are not exactly defenceless in close combat (with the riders having Poison and the mounts sharing the S4 statline of the Wild Riders' mounts), with only regular WS, S3 and just one attack, they won't be killing much there. They do have BS5, and throw Poisonous, Armour-Piercing spears at 12"; the main fun, though, is that the unit as a whole counts as a Level 2 wizard, who always has Thornshield from the Lore of Life and Curse of Anraheir from the Lore of Beasts. They add their rank bonus (if any) to their casting attempts, and if they miscast, instead of rolling on the table, 1d3 of them simply die (unless protected by the Wood Elves' White Magic lore attribute). It's not entirely clear to me what the main purpose of this unit is, but it looks like fun, and should be at least decently effective.

Wildwood Rangers
A new close combat block that I foresee Wood Elves are also going to rely on heavily. They have the same statline as Eternal Guard, carry double-handed weapons (so basically lose their Always Strike First, but attack with S5 at Initiative 5), are Immune to Psychology, and get +1A if they are fighting something that causes Fear or Terror (which makes them almost the equal of High Elf Swordmasters in this situation). And they cost just as much as Eternal Guard without shields or Dryads do! Yeah, those are pretty damn amazing.

Rare

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Great Eagles
Exactly the same as always.

Waywatchers
Now, instead of getting Killing Blow, they get to choose whether they want to shoot with Multiple Shots(2), or whether they want to deny their opponent any armour saves whatsoever. They still are Skirmishers and Scouts, and still have two handweapons, but no longer give the enemy an additional -1 to shoot at them. Still, they are also 4 points cheaper; I imagine they should be quite good against any heavily armoured targets now (and if none are around, they just shoot twice). Unfortunately, they don't have access to enchanted arrows. Still, I intend to use a bunch.

Treeman
Well... it is cheaper. A lot - whopping 60 points. And it has gained +1WS and an alternate attack option, where rather than rolling for to-hit and such, one enemy model has to make an Initiative test, and if it fails, it suffers 1d6 automatic wounds with no armour saves allowed (which should be nice against low-initiative monsters, like Sphinxes, Stegadons, other Treemen, or alike). It also still has its 3+ armour save and Toughness of 6, and its (Stubborn!) Leadership has increased to 9. That's a lot of good things. Unfortunately, it has also lost 1S and 1W each, and its shooting attack is now an upgrade (the same as for the Ancient, though since the Treeman has BS6, unlike the Ancient's BS4, it may be worth it a little more in this case - probably still not good enough though). Especially the Strength loss hurts a lot. But, I imagine they should still be very much worth it.

Items

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Quite a lot of the more memorable items from the old armybook actually made it over; unfortunately, the Wand of the Wych Elm was not one of them.

The Spirit Sword (magic weapon) no longer wounds automatically, but instead doesn't allow armour saves. If it causes any unsaved wounds, both the bearer and the target need to roll 2d6 and add their respective Leadership (instead of 1d6, as it used to be, meaning that it's more likely not to do anything even against low Leadership targets, but at the same time more likely to inflict a lot more damage in one stroke now), and if the Wood Elf rolls higher, the target takes the difference in additional wounds, with no armour saves allowed (ward saves, however, are allowed now). If the Wood Elf rolls lower, nothing happens at all (so, it is much, much safer in this regard now). Unfortunately, it has also gotten a fair bit more expensive, to the point where I doubt it is worth it, since it would leave the bearer woefully unprotected.

Daith's Reaper (magic weapon) still costs the same (i.e., terribly much), but now allows to re-roll both failed to-wound and to-hit rolls, while the enemy has to re-roll successful armour saves. That is, admittedly, a rather nice amount of re-rolling. A simple Giant or Ogre Blade will probably still be better in most situations for a close-combat Highborn, though.

The Bow of Loren (magic weapon) is fairly cheap, and grants the bearer Multiple Shots (A+1) (and still has Armour Piercing). It cannot shoot enchanted arrows, however.

The Helm of the Hunt (magic armour) does exactly the same thing as before (+1 armour, +1WS and +1A when charging). Costs the same, too (which is, not much, still a very nice item).

The Acorn of Eternity (enchanted item) is new; it is the most expensive item (eating up a Lord's full magic item point allowance), but given the new Wood Elves' massive benefits when fighting in forests, it may very well still be totally worth it: It creates 1d3 forests (again, Citadel forests), which you can place anywhere on the table (before army deployment).They then scatter 2d6". You get to choose what type of forest they are (they all have to be the same type, though).

The Moonstone of Hidden Paths (enchanted item) still allows the bearer to teleport himself and his entire unit from one forest to another. Kind of expensive, unfortunately.

The Hail of Doom Arrow (enchanted item) still grants 3d6 shots with S4; it no longer is exempt from the -1 penalty for Multiple Shots, but has picked up Armour Piercing to make up for it, and it still costs the same.

Calaingor's Staff (arcane artefact) makes the wizard generate one spell less, and grants him a unique spell - Tree Singing! Which allows to move a forest within 18" by 1d6+1", or (if empowered) to do that to all forests within 12" instead. Forests with units inside them cannot be moved; instead, enemy units inside such a forest suffer 2d6 S4 hits. Fairly cheap; might be nice.

The Banner of the Eternal Queen (magic banner) gives its bearer Magic Resistance 3 and can be used once per game to give him and his unit Unbreakable for one player turn. It is stupidly expensive, though.

The Banner of the Hunter King (magic banner) gives the bearer and his unit Vanguard and allows them to re-roll their first failed charge. It, too, is stupidly expensive, sadly.

[Eldan]

So, a short summary that people in my shop agreed on was "Stronger, but more generic". Would you agree with that?

[Winterwind]

So, a short summary that people in my shop agreed on was "Stronger, but more generic". Would you agree with that?

Hmmm. In some ways, I guess, not so much in others.

Like... there are way more rank-and-file infatry units now, less skirmishers, and at least one of them is good enough to actually form proper, big units out of and go up against whatever other armies can throw at you. And some of definining, unique rules are gone (Asrai Archery and the whole "special effects at close range"-stuff). But on the other hand, there is still an unusually strong reliance on shooting units (that nonetheless don't function like a proper gunline, there is still tons of mobility (in some ways more than before, since cavalry gets much bigger in this armybook again, and all of it is Fast Cavalry), and there are all new very unique rules - I can't really think of anything that is comparable to those enchanted arrows and the customization potential they add to regular infantry/cavalry units, nor, perhaps more importantly, can I think of any army for which terrain is so important. Like, forests were important to the last armybook, when the only good close combat infantry was skirmishers, and yet I feel they are vastly more important now. The new armybook also clearly tried to give elves and forest spirits a separate identity (in that the former deal a lot of damage, but are very squishy, whereas the latter don't deal nearly as much damage, but are quite resilient - the latter in particular is comparatively uncommon for monstrous infantry and monsters.), and I think it succeeded with that. And the whole "Not that much Strength, but Armour Piercing across the board"-thing is also a new theme that is fairly unique to the new Wood Elves.

So... overall, I'm not sure I'd really agree. Mobility, shooting, fragility and picking the fights very carefully, but then striking incredibly hard, are all still hallmarks of the Wood Elves, or so it would seem to me. In many ways, I think the new armybook may actually represent Wood Elves better rules-wise than the old one did.

As for power... well, again, a lot got better, but many of the best things also got worse. I feel it's really difficult to tell at this point in time how well this armybook will do.

[hamishspence]

a lot got better, but many of the best things also got worse.

That may be the signature style of any update - and might qualify as a Good Thing.

[Tome]

Quick question, are they still movey and shooty? Because that's pretty much the only reason I'm interested in them. Wheeling around huge blocks of infantry just isn't fun for me.

[Winterwind]

That may be the signature style of any update - and might qualify as a Good Thing.

Indeed.

Quick question, are they still movey and shooty? Because that's pretty much the only reason I'm interested in them. Wheeling around huge blocks of infantry just isn't fun for me.

Yes, they are. It may be possible to build them in a way that is not now, but I don't think that would be well advised. Lots of archers are probably going to be even more core to them than ever, and they will probably be relying on fast cavalry a lot. The archers will want to move a lot less nowadays, but shooting up the opponent to soften them up and using superior mobility to pick the right fights should still be key to a Wood Elf victory.

[Drasius]

Considering dipping my toe into the wild and wonderful world of fantasy with Skaven as my preference. Looking for a 2k Clan Skryre list, had a quick squizz at the codex and a flick through the rulebook today. This is as far as I've got (some points costs could be a bit off);

465 - Grey Seer, Screaming Bell, Dispel Scroll

85 - Warlock, Lvl 1, Condenser
45 - Warlock, Doomrocket

295 - 30x Stormvermin, Shields, Doomflayer
207 - 30x Clanrats, Shields, Musician, Warpfire Thrower
207 - 30x Clanrats, Shields, Musician, Warpfire Thrower
82 - 40x Skaven Slaves, Musician
82 - 40x Skaven Slaves, Musician

100 - 5x Jezzails

90 - Warp Lightning Cannon
90 - Warp Lightning Cannon
150 - Doomwheel

1898

As someone who has never even watched a game of fantasy let alone played one, I've got the feeling that the bell is too expensive for 2k and I'd be better taking a warlord to get the re-rollable Ld10 and fleshing out my clanrats some more. Something tells me that the weapon teams are going to be expensive point sinks that get shot up very rapidly and that the Jezzails are going to severly underperform for their cost. Unfortunatly, I really like the jezzails and the weapon teams (and Jezzails) seem like a rather inherant part of a Skryre list. As you can tell, this is more fluff than tournament. Opponents could be virtually anything as there's quite a varied range of fantasy armies up here.

So, 100 points left as is (assuming I've correctly rememberd my points) and at least 3 dubious choices. I don't want a helpit abomination, and would be very loathe to give up the WLC's, but I guess if you put a gun to my head I could go without the doomwheel (but it'd be a difficult choice). Would dropping the Jezzails for some clanrats with a Rattling cannon be a step in the right direction? Do I simply stick a ~100 point Chieftan in there and call it a day? Is there anyway to get a good performance out of the Jezzails by adding more rats or is that simply throwing good points after bad?

[Science Officer]

Having a warlord would be very good. Ld10 is nice, but the real value is in not having your warlord be your wizard and thus avoiding putting all your eggs in one basket.

I still remember that one game where my Grey Seer was sucked into the warp on the first turn.

Can't give you advice on the jezzails, but as for weapon teams... I suppose that's kind of what they are. Very high points-cost-to-wounds ratio. Don't know about the doom-flayer, but if you can land one solid hit with a WFT, it's worth it. Maybe not points/value wise, but it is so worth it.

Others will probably say that 30x units of clan rats are too small, but, eh, they get by. You should really consider taking Standard Bearers, though. Bonus to combat resolution is huge.

[Winterwind]

You lack a Battle Standard Bearer. If you are not Undead or Daemon, BSBs are really, really important. So, that would be my first recommendation to fix. If you want to know why, here's something I wrote a few years back that might illustrate the reason.

Your Stormvermin should have a command unit, too. Little reason not to give them one.

Don't worry about the WLCs and the Doomwheel, those are perfectly effective (well, on average. As with most Skaven technology, they tend to be a bit unpredictable).

As far as Jezzails go, they are a bit on the overcosted side, but if there are the right targets for them, they can do well enough (they are first and foremost an anti-heavy-cavalry unit, and very effective against those, are okay-ish against other targets that have high Toughness and/or armour, and get totally inefficient against everything else).

How much damage weapon teams can deal depends on how many options of dealing with them in a timely fashion the opponent has. Like, I as a Wood Elf player am just going to shrug and have one of my many Glade Guard units shoot them to death; a, say, Warriors of Chaos player, on the other hand, is going to have much more trouble preventing them from dealing some damage (and they are really good at dealing damage, if they get to deal any!). This said, I am not quite convinced of the Doomflayer; I'd think a Ratling Cannon, a Poison Wind Mortar, or another Warpflame Thrower would probably be more effective more often.

The Stormbanner is a really powerful and effective item, and well worthy of inclusion, if you can find a good way to do so.

That would be about all comments I can think of for now.

[HerbieRAI]

Winterwind knows his stuff, get a BSB. WFT are still Str 5 D3 wounds, right? Against Ogres, one hit can come close to winning you the game.

I would also suggest about 40 to 50 per unit of clanrats and 60 or more slaves. I'm playing OnG right now with a night goblin archer horde of 80 to 100. In CC there about the same as slaves, and I consider it a good combat round to only lose 10.

[Eldan]

Get rid of the doomflayer. It is utter garbage. I know it looks cool, but don't. Depending on points, get a ratling gun (cheap) or a mortar (more expensive but amazing against targets with a lot of armour).

Put a full command in your stormvermin. If you have the points, give them a cheap banner, too. Flaming attacks is always useful, alternatively the storm banner, if you hate your opponent.

The bell may be a bit expensive, but I really like it a lot. It's not exactly weak, as such. It's main purpose, really, is not the ringing. It is there to keep your seer alive and make a unit that will never, ever flee under any circumstances. Combined with something cheap like a large unit of clanrats, it will make one of the best anvils in the game.

Weapon teams are amazing, but vulnerable to shooting. You have to learn to keep them alive, but if you do, they are well worth their cost. Especially flamethrowers. A unit of ogres will take you apart if they get to your line, but one shot with a flamethrower can kill half of them.

Doomwheels are fun, but unpredictable. They can be very strong, though. Abominations are certainly stronger, though. In a Skryre army, I'd go for the wheel. (Or build your own Abomination, mine's entirely mechanical and piloted by a warlock).

Jezzails, sadly, do underperform. Take five. You pay 100 points. You will usually hit on 5+, because you're shooting at long ranges. So, that's maybe 2 hits. They will wound well, let's be generous and assume both do. Then what? You caused two wounds. They will probably get to shoot about three times in a game. Means they have to make up their cost in 6 wounds. Will likely almost never happen. Your opponent will have ward saves, or something that inhibits shooting. If you only hit on a 6+, you need to kill 30 points per shot. Nope.

Never leave your house without a BSB. You will need it for everything. Make it a cheap chieftain, if you have points left, give him magic armour and a shield.

By the way, if you have five points left, there's the something-something icon in the core rulebook that gives a 6+ save against war machines. Always worth those 5 points, on pretty much any unit.

All that said, Skaven are a pretty strong army. They are also relatively internally balanced. There's very few things in there that can't do something.

[Tehnar]

The BSB is probably your most important character, even before the general. Losing him makes you drastically more likely to fail Ld checks, and for skaven that is very bad.
You want him protected, and you want him alive as long as possible.

So your best bet is to either keep in out of harms way, in a bunker (skaven do that well).

Or you put him in the front rank, and load up on protective items. Armor of Silvered Steel, Armor of Fortune, Tricksters helm are all good choices, depending on how hard it is to get a good armor save and if you prefer a ward save as well.

[Winterwind]

So as I've mentioned a while back, I'm participating in a (slightly house-ruled) Mighty Empires campaign with my Wood Elves. We play with fixed 2.500 points lists (it is possible to rewrite them, but it costs points that one might instead use to capture new territory, i.e., work towards winning the campaign, which is why I'd rather not have to rewrite). Since I got a new armybook, I get a free rewrite of my army list - so I'd like to make it as good a list as I can manage!

So here is what I was planning to use. Comments? Ideas for improvement? Obvious goof-ups on my part?

Spoiler

Show

Lords:
Spellweaver, General - 295
- level 4
- Asrai longbow
- dispel scroll
- Talisman of Preservation

Heroes:
Glade Captain, Battle Standard Bearer - 161
- two-handed weapon
- shield
- Hail of Doom Arrow (1 use, Multiple Shots (3d6), S4, Armour Piercing)
- Helm of the Hunt (+1 armour, +1WS and +1A when charging)
- Arcane Bodkins (enchanted arrows: -3 armour modifier)

Core:
Glade Guard (x15) - 270
- full command
- Starfire Arrows (enchanted arrows: Flaming, +1 to wound against Forces of Destruction)¹

Glade Guard (x15) - 255
- full command
- Curse of the Witch Arrows (enchanted arrows: Poison)

Glade Guard (x10) - 190
- musician, champion²
- Arcane Bodkins (enchanted arrows: -3 armour modifier)

Glade Riders (x5) - 120
- musician
- Curse of the Witch Arrows (enchanted arrows: Poison)

Special:
Wildwood Rangers (x25) - 310
- full command
- Ironcurse Icon

Deepwood Scouts (x10) - 170
- musician
- Curse of the Witch Arrows (enchanted arrows: Poison)

Wild Riders (x10) - 310
- full command
- shields

Rare:
- Waywatchers (x7) - 140

- Great Eagle - 50

- Treeman - 225

TOTAL: 2496


¹ There are six players in the campaign besides me, four of which play Forces of Destruction. Moreover, all my neighbours on the map - i.e., the players against whom wins and losses matter in particular - belong to the Forces of Destruction, too.
² All games in the campaign are just straight up battles, no special missions, so banners are only useful for combat resolution, and are otherwise a bit of a liability in that they can give the opponent extra victory points. Hence why I only take them on units where I feel combat resolution may actually matter.

Just as a reminder for people not familiar with the new Wood Elf units and rules:
- Deepwood Scouts are simply Glade Guard who are Skirmishers and Scouts.
- Wild Riders nowadays have Frenzy and get +1A when charging (so they are up to 3 attacks per model then). Their steeds have S4 now, too. In other words, those things are blenders.
- Wildwood Rangers are WS5 S3 T3 I5 A1 Ld9 units with Immune to Psychology, who get +1A when in base to base contact with enemy models that cause Fear or Terror, and are equipped with light armour and two-handed weapons.
- All Wood Elves get shooting and attacking from one additional rank while in forests, get to re-roll 1s to wound while in forests, and have Always Strike First.

Things I'm unsure about in particular:
- Which lore to use? I'm somewhat tending to just still go with Life - it is not just one of the strongest lores, but also one of the safest ones (in the "wizard not go boom"-sense), but trying out High or Dark Magic sure sounds enticing...
- Do you feel it is advised to take enchanted arrows on every unit that can take them? I feel the effects of the arrows should be worth their cost in each case... and yet it feels odd to be using 205 out of my 2500 points just to upgrade the shooting of my units. I know of the old "boys before toys" adage, but what if the toys seem really strong?
- Do you think those are even the right unit choices? There are so many things I have that would I also like to bring - Wardancers, Treekin, maybe more Wild Riders - and I also wouldn't have minded including Sisters of the Thorns - but my gut tells me that all of those finicky, specialty units will probably not perform as well as simply putting more Glade Guard on the table...
- Would I be better off putting my BSB on a horse and having him with the Wild Riders?
- Should I have gone with 30+ Wildwood Rangers instead, so I could use them effectively in horde-formation? If so, what do you think I should cut out for that?
- The only other player around here who also plays Wood Elves feels like the lord-level mage should be taking the Acorn of Eternity nowadays. I dunno, that feels really stupidly expensive to me, all the more since this many forests are going to maybe be a great spot to fight using those fancy Wood Elves special rules, but will also give the opponent great cover against the shooting (though they may also force his movements, since those forests would probably all be Poison Thickets). What do you think? Is the Acorn mandatory, as that other WE player seems to think?

I realize nobody will have much experience with the new Wood Elves yet, neither playing them nor against them, but I figure the many experienced players we have here should at least be able to give really good estimates based on theory.

[LCP]

While as you say it's way too early for me to have experience of the new book, I think you are a little heavy on toys.

• The BSB is the most egregious example. He's got a bunch of shooty kit, but he's also got a great weapon and the Helm. If he gets into combat, the opponent only has to put 2 wounds on a T3, 4+ AS model to net themselves 261 points... so why not leave him with just his archery equipment and have him chill out with the Glade Guard?
• Do you really need poison arrows on a 5-man unit of fast cavalry?

Personally - just on a whim - I'd be inclined to try out the 100pt acorn. It's such a fantastic way to change the nature of the game - get those woods into the middle of the board and it's no Steadfast for anyone, plus oodles of bonuses for you. Your treeman + cavalry will be able to break enemy blocks much faster (right now if the Wild Riders take one casualty they can't break Steadfast) and you can take the "no hit penalties for me" arrows to rub salt in the wound.

1 forest + d3 forests + maybe there are forests already = all the forests. Enemy cavalry and chariots sit in the corner and cry. Lore of Life gets even better as Awakening of the Wood becomes a viable spell.

[hamishspence]

You need that staff of Tree Singing to actually move those woods. It's fairly cheap though.