Results 241 to 251 of 251
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2014-03-02, 06:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?
Such as what? So far the only example that people have been able to produce is completely destroying on a cosmic the ability to become good. We've had a fairly interesting discussion about the consequences of a fixed alignment, which is very interesting in terms of the implications philosophically and rules-wise. However, nobody has been able to pick an example that would not be arbitrary and certainly none listed in the rules of any game that I'm aware.
There are things that can forcefully change your alignment, such as lycanthropy, or a helm of opposite alignment, or becoming an undead, but they also change your outlook and presumably you could shift your outlook back.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-03-02, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?
Dunno, I feel this is somewhat common under the guise of misguided actions.
To a certain extent I doubt we can without looking to real life, the meta aspect of an external player making choices without any means of knowing in an absolute sense what a character through their own (nonexistent) internal choices. As good as a roleplayer may be we can't quantify-ably measure any meta influence and I doubt there's anyone who has absolutely zero. I know I for one will personally always find certain avenues personally distasteful would never have a character pursue them, regardless of any possible in character difference outlook.
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2014-03-02, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?
I don't think that's necessarily the case, if a person can comprehend their character's outlook, they should be able to have their character act according to it. Even if they may find doing so distasteful. I personally find racists distasteful and I've roleplayed them. While it may not be possible for you to roleplay all changes in alignment, a dramatic shift in outlook (altruism to selfishness for example) should be something that a reasonable person could at least, conceptually, simulate.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-03-02, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?
While I agree on a large level, our own internal conceptualization will limit our understandings and applications of these things. In a real world sense pure objectivism is nigh impossible. In an in character sense not only are the actions and understandings first filtered into our conceptual framework but are then applied via a limited scope of who a character is in an in game sense. Without creating hundreds of pages of backstory to try and workout how various experiences in the characters life would impact them (not to mention they live in a very different world which we don't have any personal internal experience with which to contrast our own understanding) I don't see how in an absolute, objective, and quantifiable method we can remove the meta. I have no idea what it means to grow up in 1400s Italy. I can build a character built around what I know and how I think someone would react, but I doubt its the same as if I had actually lived there.
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2014-03-02, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
- Location
- Washington State
- Gender
Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?
I think Xykon especially in Start of Darkness is a great example of how becoming a normal lich influences your alignment. That's the baseline assumption, I think, like Ghosts in Supernatural where the longer you remain as this inhuman entity, the less and less you care about your humanity; the more of a monster you become.
It is a common trope, and it fits here.
That said, it shouldn't be impossible to fight it or change. Barring of course Good Liches from Libris Mortis that RAW explicitly DO exist, an evil lich redeeming herself and doing good deeds and fighting her nature and all that would be a cool story, have potentially awesome RP, and would be something I'd love to be a part of.
At the end of the day, it should be a fight, though. She wouldn't just wake up and say "I'm Lawful Good now, lol, time for some Exalted Feats" but rather take a long and hard journey that never ends as the taint and influence never leaves.Thanks Gigi Digi for the avatar.
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2015-02-01, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2014
- Location
- Corneria
- Gender
Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?
Well this entire argument is rather ridiculous, I had to stop reading at about the 7th page to just post this right quick.
Say you could become some kind of benevolent creature through some ritual, the ritual requires acts of unspeakable good to perform. After said act and transformation into the creature, then you go off kicking celestial puppies, destroying planes, and listening to Celine Dion. By some of the logic displayed on this topic, than you would still be considered unquestionably good no matter how many people you rape, how many children you orphan, or virgin sacrifices you make.
Morality isn't about a state of being, it's about what you do while in that state of being, if a lich wants to start handing out (not poisoned) lollipops to little children, or solve world hunger, guess what he did, a good action, he MIGHT be on his way to becoming a better person (intent factors in on this). In no way at any shape, form, or manner does that erase his past deeds, he still did whatever he did in the ritual (or before or after) and he can still choose to do whatever he wants to do at a later point. And hey, if that lich somehow reverses all the evil he has ever done, than how would he still be evil even if he is still inside that withering corpse?
On a side note I would however likely (if I were DM) rule that you would have a kind of "evil" taint to you in the case of detect Evil, no scale of morality is just going to "forget" that you murdered thousands of babies and bathed in their blood (just an example).
Oh and to whomever came up with the "unspeakable good" thing, that's hilarious. You deserve a gold star.Last edited by AbyssStalker; 2015-02-01 at 01:08 PM. Reason: Grammer
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2015-02-01, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Location
- NYC
- Gender
Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?
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2015-02-01, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
- Location
- Alaska
- Gender
Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?
That's correct, yes. You pegged the morality gauge, then locked/broke it with a supernatural effect that is tied to it.
If someone were transformed into an Earth elemental related creature, then spent a lot of time standing on high places and chatting up birds and sylphs, they will not spontaneously stop being affected by spells to affect Earth-using creatures. This is no different.
In other news, I just looked at the dates... Necromancy much?Last edited by JusticeZero; 2015-02-01 at 04:04 PM.
"We were once so close to heaven, Peter came out and gave us medals declaring us 'The nicest of the damned'.."
- They Might Be Giants, "Road Movie To Berlin"
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2015-02-01, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Location
- NYC
- Gender
Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?
Actually it is different. There's no such thing as "spells to affect Earth-using creatures" - just [Earth] creatures which Earth elementals are (although I don't think polymorph would give you the tag). It works the same for [Evil], and in fact there are rules that regardless of a creature's alignment, [Evil] creatures actually are affected by anti-Evil spells.
Unfortunately, a Lich is not [Evil] by virtue of the template. In fact, it's really damn hard to get the [Evil] tag - you pretty much need to be an outsider.
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2015-02-01, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
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2015-02-01, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- San Antonio, Texas
- Gender
Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?
The Mod Wonder: Closed for Necromancy.
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
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