Junkyard Wars in the Playground I

[Kazudo]

Welcome to Junkyard Stadium! It is in this hallowed pile of miscellaneous parts that we will hold a competition of Practical Optimization with three components: The catch? Competitors may not use the third item in their builds!

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Goal: For most challenges, the "special components" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in Build Stability and/or Power.

Workshop: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Build Stability below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Build Stability deduction at the judges' discretion. If you use web material, link it. Dragon Magazine Compendium is allowed. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for one or more of the Components.

Completion Time: Contestants will have until 11:59 PM GMT Thursday, April 3rd, 2014 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Kazudo. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59 PM GMT Thursday, April 17th, 2014 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, and Build Stability.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level. Using words similar to another competition's predecessor, "A little cheese is ok, but avoid the mature gruyere unless making a cheese fondue." Or something similar, but with junkyard builds.

Build Stability is a change from the Iron Chef vein of competitions: If you're coming from one of those, it's a synergy of Elegance and Use of Secret Ingredient. Since the builds in this competition will inevitably be build differently than a meal, I've altered this judging term. It's a combination of terms to ensure that the build uses every component and that they synergize well together. The more class dips that a build has, the less stable it will be. The simpler the mechanics, the less chance of something going wrong.

Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.

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NAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|

+x

|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

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[b]NAME OF ENTRY[/b]
{table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]Class[/b]|[b]Base Attack Bonus[/b]|[b]Fort Save[/b]|[b]Ref Save[/b]|[b]Will Save[/b]|[b]Skills[/b]|[b]Feats[/b]|[b]Class Features[/b]

1st|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)

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Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

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[b]Spells per day/Spells Known[/b]
{table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]0lvl[/b]|[b]1st[/b]|[b]2nd[/b]|[b]3rd[/b]|[b]4th[/b]|[b]5th[/b]|[b]6th[/b]|[b]7th[/b]|[b]8th[/b]|[b]9th[/b]

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're creating one things, not a zillion things. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This competition has two Necessary Ingredients, and one Forbidden ingredient. The ingredients are:

1. Originally introduced in the Player's Handbook: The Sneak Attack Class Feature!
2. Originally introduced in the Dungeon Master's Guide: The Shadowdancer Prestige Class!
And the forbidden ingredient:
3. Originally introduced in the Player's Handbook: The Rogue Base Class!

We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Contestants are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM. Everyone else can vote in-thread.

Ready? Steady? Get to the junkyard and start building!

[Darkcouch]

Good concept, but I would advise using prestige classes that have not been used by Iron Chef or you will likely get rehashes of builds over there.

There isn't any reason to use terrible PCs either if you are already going to limit an entry class or class feature.

[Kazudo]

This is a test run, so I'm attempting to do something relatively simple.

[Seerow]

I like the concept here more than I do for Iron Chef. I may take a shot at this.

[NoACWarrior]

So what do we have to do to enter?

I'm still trying to figure out if the build I have in mind is viable...

Edit: new stuff to add new post...

[G.Cube]

Just asking to confirm, there's no fluff or back story needing to be in the final build?

Just asking to make sure, I'll be giving this a shot either way, granted I find the time to sit down and dip through the scrap and material!

[Kazudo]

Draw it up, put it into the format above, and PM it to me.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

I want in, just a few questions before I get started.

No Dragon Magazines, what about the Dragon Compendium?
Are Rogue Variant classes allowed?
Do other forms of precision damage count as Sneak Attack, or does the class feature have to be labeled Sneak Attack?

[Kazudo]

I want in, just a few questions before I get started.

No Dragon Magazines, what about the Dragon Compendium?
Are Rogue Variant classes allowed?
Do other forms of precision damage count as Sneak Attack, or does the class feature have to be labeled Sneak Attack?

Answers: DMC is allowed. Rogue variants are not. If it modifies the Rogue Base class, it's not allowed. It has to be Sneak Attack. Things like Sudden Strike and Skirmish don't fill the bill.

It's going to be a few similar builds, I'm aware. This is kind of a maiden voyage, and if it works (even crappily), then the next few will be more challenging and varied.

[NoACWarrior]

Ok I think I made a way for it to be viable, I'm in.

Just to confirm, does sneak have to be incorporated by level 1?
How much sneak attack must exist?
Does sneak attack have to exist as a class skill?

I am asking this because its possible to use magic to get sneak attack, and its further possible to get sneak attack from magic items emulating said magic. Also, some base / PrCs have low sneak attack progression. I'll be using sneak attack but I just don't know how much I will have if I have to take 10 levels of SD.

Also, what level do we have to take shadow dancer of, and how many levels should we have of SD by level 20?

[NoACWarrior]

Ok, a few more questions:

Do we get just enough XP to reach level 20?
What about XP penalties from multiclassing base classes?
What about magic item creation (this includes creation of effigies and / or constructs from an artificer)?

I assume that multiclassing penalties will get a lower score due to "harder to pull off in a real game" but what is or isn't allowed in terms of spending XP or taking XP penalties?

[justiceforall]

Posting to say I like the idea - specifically the build stability bonus score.

[Sian]

Full Shadowdancer?

[Windstorm]

Thinking about taking a shot at this, my only question (so far): what is the ruling on the lurk's psionic sneak attack? its technically not sneak attack as the normal class feature, but only because it requires psionic focus to function.

[Kazudo]

Ok I think I made a way for it to be viable, I'm in.

Just to confirm, does sneak have to be incorporated by level 1?
How much sneak attack must exist?
Does sneak attack have to exist as a class skill?

I am asking this because its possible to use magic to get sneak attack, and its further possible to get sneak attack from magic items emulating said magic. Also, some base / PrCs have low sneak attack progression. I'll be using sneak attack but I just don't know how much I will have if I have to take 10 levels of SD.

Also, what level do we have to take shadow dancer of, and how many levels should we have of SD by level 20?

You typically want to maximize the effectiveness of both ingredients. Depending on magical items for things like PRC qualification and other such things may unfortunately cause you to take a hit in build stability depending on the judges.

That being said, the better use of the PRC and the class feature, typically the better the score.

Speaking of judges, would anyone like to step up to that plate? Competitors need not apply of course.

EDIT: I personally don't use the multiclassing XP rule. However, any judges we acquire might, and it may cause your build to be less stable if you don't account for it. Same thing, for example, with LA buyoff and magical item creation. A safe assumption is that you have the XP necessary to reach 20th level. There have been pages of conversation about this on Iron Chef over the years, and really it comes down to personal taste.

As far as Psionic Sneak Attack goes, let me look at it a bit and ponder. Other forms of precision damage don't count, but that's not to say that this one won't.

[Gwachitallemall]

Why not? I'll judge. Will post my criteria when not on phone. Need to revise it.

On my thoughts on psionic sneak attack, it doesn't count because it is not the sneak attack class feature. Neither would assassin's stance count as your only form of sneak attack. Both would get a 0 in build stability if they are the only forms of sneak attack you have.

[Kazudo]

Why not? I'll judge. Will post my criteria when not on phone. Need to revise it.

On my thoughts on psionic sneak attack, it doesn't count because it is not the sneak attack class feature. Neither would assassin's stance count as your only form of sneak attack. Both would get a 0 in build stability if they are the only forms of sneak attack you have.

Duly noted. I'll have to read both of those before I make a decision either way, but welcome aboard!

[Seerow]

Why not? I'll judge. Will post my criteria when not on phone. Need to revise it.

On my thoughts on psionic sneak attack, it doesn't count because it is not the sneak attack class feature. Neither would assassin's stance count as your only form of sneak attack. Both would get a 0 in build stability if they are the only forms of sneak attack you have.

I can understand no psionic sneak attack, but assassin's stance explicitly states "you gain the sneak attack ability, if you do not already have it".

[dysprosium]

Count me in on this competition one way or the other.

It is an interesting concept for build competitions.

Assassin's stance grants sneak attack yes, but it is not a class feature. It is a feature of the maneuver, not a class.

[Gwachitallemall]

I can understand no psionic sneak attack, but assassin's stance explicitly states "you gain the sneak attack ability, if you do not already have it".

I feel that as assassin's stance says ability and not class feature, it wouldn't count. If the original post said ability and not class feature, it would.

This is clarified by the stance saying later on if you have the class feature, your SA ability is increased, which makes me feel that tje class featute and the ability to use sneak attack are seperate.

Now I Will judge the damage if it's not your only form of sneak attack, but of it is the only form of SA ,.barring a ruling from the chair, it will get a 0.

[Kazudo]

Alright. Ruling on Assassin's Stance: [REDACTED, see later on in the competition. Sorry for confusion.]

Ruling on Psionic Sneak Attack: Yes, but. Yes, it will qualify as a class ability for the purposes of the competition. However, relying on psionic focus might get you docked in Build Stability. Though that's a judge call.

Another thing that might come up: Any races which grant Sneak Attack will be considered essentially granting it as the class feature.

[Gwachitallemall]

Good enough, so basically, if I can extrapolate from that, then, anything that is a class or race that says sneak attack anywhere in the name (not the description) will count. Stances and magic items only count for extra points, not to start off the full process. Seem right?

[Kazudo]

Good enough, so basically, if I can extrapolate from that, then, anything that is a class or race that says sneak attack anywhere in the name (not the description) will count. Stances and magic items only count for extra points, not to start off the full process. Seem right?

Correct. That's the ruling I'm going to be working from for this specific episode.

In a slight deviation from the norm (though not entirely), entrants and spectators alike can PM me with an ingredient combination they'd like to see in future episodes. I won't guarantee that it'll be used as is, at all, or that the requester will get any kind of credit for it, but I'll gladly consider any and all requests for future episodes.

EDIT:

Just asking to confirm, there's no fluff or back story needing to be in the final build?

I missed this somehow.

Fluff or back story is at the entrant's discretion. Will writing an epic poem help your scores, or would it be better to just lay out the bare bones and let the build speak for itself? That's up to the judges. I can say that putting some fluff and glitz in your entry, notes as to specific build synergies, an additional section with "alternate suggestions" in case certain things are allowed in personal games where they aren't here (Item Familiars, flaws, alternate rule systems like fractional saves and BAB, etc), all of that may make your build appear more stable and give the judges more to think about when it comes to how to accurately judge your build.

It's the user's guide to the airplane. Sure, it may only have three buttons and a throttle. However, it would still be nice to have an operator's manual.

[Prime32]

Dragon magazine isn't allowed, but is Dragon Compendium?

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Dragon magazine isn't allowed, but is Dragon Compendium?

Yes, answered in Post #9.

[Kazudo]

Edited the OP to reflect that. In the same vein as ICitP, I may end up making an FAQ post as the second post in the thread in future iterations.

[Seerow]

Full Shadowdancer?

Seconding this question. Are we required to have the full 10 levels of shadowdancer, and/or will taking less than a full 10 levels of it hurt out score? Or is it fine as long as Shadowdancer is a central component of the build?

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Seconding this question. Are we required to have the full 10 levels of shadowdancer, and/or will taking less than a full 10 levels of it hurt out score? Or is it fine as long as Shadowdancer is a central component of the build?

Post #15
"You typically want to maximize the effectiveness of both ingredients." I would say that means fewer Shadowdancer levels=lower score.

Is this class allowed?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

[Kazudo]

Seconding this question. Are we required to have the full 10 levels of shadowdancer, and/or will taking less than a full 10 levels of it hurt out score? Or is it fine as long as Shadowdancer is a central component of the build?

Well put answer, actually, to the question.

Taking all 10 levels of the PRC aren't required, in fact, taking all 10 levels isn't a great way to guarantee Build Stability points. However, whenever a PRC is a required element in the build, it needs to be a central component.

It's the equivalent of handing you a full sized diesel and steam engine and telling you to make me a boat. Will you need to use every last component, pipe, filter, and flange? Doubtful. Will the boat still need to feature and apply the engine as the primary focus? Yep.

[Seerow]

Well put answer, actually, to the question.

Taking all 10 levels of the PRC aren't required, in fact, taking all 10 levels isn't a great way to guarantee Build Stability points. However, whenever a PRC is a required element in the build, it needs to be a central component.

It's the equivalent of handing you a full sized diesel and steam engine and telling you to make me a boat. Will you need to use every last component, pipe, filter, and flange? Doubtful. Will the boat still need to feature and apply the engine as the primary focus? Yep.

Fair enough.