Ranger vs. Wizard

[toapat]

The A-game Paladin is Pun-Pun.

for all intents and purposes, ya, theres alot of rule breaking in that build, but it still cant be beaten by Ranger without throwing ranger upto their own pinacle of strength, because anything less then that and they are outclassed at the same tasks or matched.

[Haldir]

There litterally is no way for a ranger to beat the A-Game paladin in combat Other then Mystic Ranger with SotAO. Archery? the A-Game is a full BAB DFI bard. melee? same deal.

Why specifically is Mystic Ranger being excluded? Because it never made it into Dragon Magic? Yes, I determine by your completely biased rule set you might be able to make Paladin good enough to beat Ranger. If you could find him.

But you can't, you still lack all the perception skills necessary to even get close to attacking a Ranger. You've built a WMD but have no way of actually making it land. The Ranger will get a surprise round, and given sufficient optimization, that's all it will really need.

Oh, let's not forget DFI is elementally typed damage and Ranger has spells.

Your point that "The Paladin does tons of damage" is null, because it completely lacks any other method of defeating the Ranger, and tries to get the job done in the least effective manner. Thanks to Summons, Wild Empathy, and Knowledge (Nature), Rangers can break the action economy pretty hard, and I don't need that many actions to defeat someone whose effective strategy amounts to "Alright, I'm going to wait until he shows up, and hope to survive long enough to attack him."

[toapat]

Why specifically is Mystic Ranger being excluded? Because it never made it into Dragon Magic? Yes, I determine by your completely biased rule set you might be able to make Paladin good enough to beat Ranger. If you could find him.

But you can't, you still lack all the perception skills necessary to even get close to attacking a Ranger. You've built a WMD but have no way of actually making it land. The Ranger will get a surprise round, and given sufficient optimization, that's all it will really need.

Oh, let's not forget DFI is elementally typed damage and Ranger has spells.

Your point that "The Paladin does tons of damage" is null, because it completely lacks any other method of defeating the Ranger, and tries to get the job done in the least effective manner. Thanks to Summons, Wild Empathy, and Knowledge (Nature), Rangers can break the action economy pretty hard, and I don't need that many actions to defeat someone whose effective strategy amounts to "Alright, I'm going to wait until he shows up, and hope to survive long enough to attack him."

The reason Mystic ranger is banned is because you grab Academic Priest, Sword of the Arcane Order, Wildshape Variant, and Natural spell for it, and its a Wizard with some druid spells and wildshape. its the only thing that can match Tempest_Stormwind's A-Game Paladin that Ranger has. Sniping a paladin at range? not an option because the A-Game has better ranged offense because it has access to DFI. Interaction and research? Other then the Serenity variant, paladin will be a Charisma class. they match or exceed what ranger can do because of access to wizard spells.

[Snowbluff]

Why specifically is Mystic Ranger being excluded? Because it never made it into Dragon Magic? Yes, I determine by your completely biased rule set you might be able to make Paladin good enough to beat Ranger. If you could find him.

The answer is yes. Dragon Magazine isn't assumed. Dragon Compendium is iffy. Bias isn't the issue here.

[Haldir]

DFI is not a strong offensive measure. Elemental resistances are quite easy to achieve.

I do not appreciate repeating myself.

Ranger has the same access to wizard spells, and the availability to hit the Paladin before the Paladin hits him. How exactly are you leveraging your negligent DFI damage to outdamage a Ranger, ever? High level D&D is rocket tag and the Paladin can't shoot first.

[Curmudgeon]

The reason Mystic ranger is banned is because you grab Academic Priest, Sword of the Arcane Order, Wildshape Variant, and Natural spell for it, and its a Wizard with some druid spells and wildshape.

Why are you mixing in a Dragonlance-only feat with D&D-only build elements? These two games only have one book in common: Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

[toapat]

DFI is not a strong offensive measure. Elemental resistances are quite easy to achieve.

I do not appreciate repeating myself.

Ranger has the same access to wizard spells, and the availability to hit the Paladin before the Paladin hits him. How exactly are you leveraging your negligent DFI damage to outdamage a Ranger, ever? High level D&D is rocket tag and the Paladin can't shoot first.

Have you ever looked at A-GAME paladin? you get +10/+10D6, At 10th level, to all attacks. Of technically Any type of non-evil dragon, you can pick Amethyst and have maybe 5 total unique enemies who can even resist your bonus damage. Oh, and paladins still have Divine Sacrifice for another +5d6 untyped damage on hit. Ranger is dealing at best at max range (([W] + 1 + STR bonus) + 9d6 + 10) x2 damage, with at best +23 Attack bonus (and thats from casting True strike, If you dont you only have a pitiful +3). a Level 5 can easily have non magical armor that adds up to more then that. Its more likely that the Paladin will be dealing more damage to themselves in a round through divine sacrifice between shots of a longbow then the ranger, and the paladin will be attacking at +10 over what the ranger has. There is a REASON the only farshot builds only use the bare minimum of a martial class, Range increment penalties overcome too much to even bother. You want to bring a longbow's range to bear you have to take Arcane archer and fire spells like Apocalypse from the sky. Ranger doesnt do that.

Why are you mixing in a Dragonlance-only feat with D&D-only build elements? These two games only have one book in common: Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

I dont really see Academic/Dynamic priest as campaign specific feats.

[Thealtruistorc]

Two words: freezing fog.

[Coidzor]

I dont really see Academic/Dynamic priest as campaign specific feats.

It's more the sourcing and difference between 1st party and 3rd party, I believe.

[toapat]

It's more the sourcing and difference between 1st party and 3rd party, I believe.

its technically second party, Same as Dragon.

[Snowbluff]

DFI is not a strong offensive measure. Elemental resistances are quite easy to achieve.

Actually, DFI can be stacked with Inspire Courage. It's a pretty crazy combination, with 10d6 energy damage with +10 damage/ +10 hit.

Ranger has the same access to wizard spells, and the availability to hit the Paladin before the Paladin hits him. How exactly are you leveraging your negligent DFI damage to outdamage a Ranger, ever? High level D&D is rocket tag and the Paladin can't shoot first.

Not to mention paladins could DMM Persist Friendly Fire.

[Curmudgeon]

its technically second party, Same as Dragon.

Second party is homebrew: i.e., created by the second party in a commercial transaction (the customer). First party is the primary seller (in this case, Wizards of the Coast).

Dragon magazine (published by Paizo) and Dragonlance game (mostly Margaret Weis publishing) are third party sources. The difference is that Dragon content is authorized for D&D use by WotC; Dragonlance (except for Dragonlance Campaign Setting, which was published by Wizards of the Coast) is not.

[toapat]

Actually, DFI can be stacked with Inspire Courage. It's a pretty crazy combination, with 10d6 energy damage with +10 damage/ +10 hit.

I thought DFI replaced the +10 damage from Inspire Courage, if it doesnt then Ranger cant beat the A-Game Paladin at range.

Second party is homebrew: i.e., created by the second party in a commercial transaction (the customer). First party is the primary seller (in this case, Wizards of the Coast).

Dragon magazine (published by Paizo) and Dragonlance game (mostly Margaret Weis publishing) are third party sources. The difference is that Dragon content is authorized for D&D use by WotC; Dragonlance (except for Dragonlance Campaign Setting, which was published by Wizards of the Coast) is not.

This actually presents a wierd problem where Sword and Sorcery is presented with a lower degree of removal then the Dragonlance and Dragon material

[squiggit]

Second party is homebrew: i.e., created by the second party in a commercial transaction (the customer). First party is the primary seller (in this case, Wizards of the Coast).

No, that's still third party.

Second party technically doesn't have a real meaning but is sometimes used to describe heavily affiliated works that aren't directly made by the company or something made by a patrnwr or subsidiary company. So, Dragon Magazine, or hypothetically if another Hasbro owned company was subcontracted to do D&D work. I've seen it used sometimes to describe third party works that are made at the direction of the first party too. Though again, it technically doesn't refer to anything.

It gets weird because the term "second party development" doesn't actually refer to the second party. Don't ask why, that's just the way the terms have developed

Homebrew is still third party, just not commercial (in fact that's the only difference between the two). The fact that I don't have to pay for my friend's warblade port for pathfinder doesn't mean it's an entirely unique category of product than one I pay ten bucks for.

[Snowbluff]

i.e., created by the second party in a commercial transaction (the customer).

Thank you for this. I was reared by a lawyer, so this stuff bothers me. Not sure if it applies to homebrew, though.

I thought DFI replaced the +10 damage from Inspire Courage, if it doesnt then Ranger cant beat the A-Game Paladin at range.

You can have both lingering. They are separate effects/bonuses. Lead with DFI, then start a standard Inspire Courage.

[Haldir]

The answer is yes. Dragon Magazine isn't assumed. Dragon Compendium is iffy. Bias isn't the issue here.

This is the definition of bias. Dragon Magazine was condoned by the creators of the game to be legal game content.

To thread-
My argument is that damage can't win this fight. All I keep hearing about is how awesome the Paladin's damage is. I'm out.

[Snowbluff]

This is the definition of bias. Dragon Magazine was condoned by the creators of the game to be legal game content.

Yes and no. You were implying that we are baised against rangers, when we are actually biased against material that is not commonly available, often poorly balanced and implemented, not a first party product, and frequently banned. One would be a legitimate complaint against the argument, the other is a reasonable expectation.

[eggynack]

Yes and no. You were implying that we are baised against rangers, when we are actually biased against material that is not commonly available, often poorly balanced and implemented, not a first party product, and frequently banned. One would be a legitimate complaint against the argument, the other is a reasonable expectation.

Pretty much. The argument would be pretty much the same if the paladin were the one with dragon magazine stuff. I think that material has been seeing greater acceptance lately, but that acceptance is definitely not total.

[ryu]

Are we seriously saying that Dragon material is any less balanced than core? Really? All the proposed ranger is doing is becoming a pseudo-wizard with a wider spell list in exchange for a whole pile of missing feats. Honestly The base wizard is still stronger.

[Snowbluff]

Mystic Ranger is Lightning Warrior until level 10, but no one was joking. It's that kind of "poorly balanced."

Pretty much. The argument would be pretty much the same if the paladin were the one with dragon magazine stuff. I think that material has been seeing greater acceptance lately, but that acceptance is definitely not total.

Pretty much. As the system grows older, I expect more exploration. However, since the magazines are not in print and, well... MAGAZINES, I will never assume them when I make a suggestion in a thread.

[eggynack]

Are we seriously saying that Dragon material is any less balanced than core?

Not necessarily. I mean, some of it is pretty silly, but core is usually going to have more silliness. I think it's mostly an issue of reduced access, combined with a lower quantity of understanding and knowledge relative to first party stuff. It's the same problem that homebrew tends to have, in other words. I think those issues are becoming smaller, which has resulted in broader acceptance, but it's not on the same level as first party material yet.

[toapat]

To thread-
My argument is that damage can't win this fight. All I keep hearing about is how awesome the Paladin's damage is. I'm out.

Your Argument is "Ranger has archery" which i pointed Out A-Game Paladin still Matches or Exceeds what ranger can do by virtue of what they are restricted to. Paladin has more, superior tricks.

I banned Mystic Ranger because Mystic Ranger is not an argument in a discussion about Ranger against Paladin, because for all intents and purposes, Mystic Ranger is a Wizard Variant. A-Game paladin has more damage regardless of engagement range, they have more healing, and have access to the same 4 levels of divinations as Ranger which render Spot/Listen irrelevant anyway.

For all intents and purposes, the Argument is that, At Anything less then Perfect Ranger Optimization, the 10th Percentile paladin (Dragon Magazine/Dragonlance material is needed to improve efficiency) for optimization is superior, because of the equality of their magic, but the superiority of what paladin gets. Ranger gets 3 bonus feats or wildshape? Paladin gets Earthglide, or one of the strongest In class charge modifiers, or a source of high mobility, Or the best Summons in the game, Or a magic weapon at massive discount. They get a greater Dispel Magic SLA. they can become DFI bards. They can get Domain powers and they have access to Divine Metamagic.

What notable did ranger get? they get a few sets of free feats, or Wildshape. They got numerous sets of skill swaps. They got a few poor secondary attacks. they got SotAO and Mystic variant, They got Swift hunter. Their ACF and Substitution Options are some of the weakest in the game (Only monk getting a worse shafting), their strength comes from what they innately have or from completely Reconstructing the class. It was banned because its a total conversion. Why i said Raging Wild Monk is banned from monk debates. You do not win an argument when you abandon it for an entirely new one.

[ryu]

Just taking umbrage with anyone citing balance as a reason for not allowing something in a game where wizards exist in the same multiverse as fighters let alone the same room as often happens.

[kkplx]

What can I say? It left an impression. XD

Care to pm me the respective build that led to that statement?

Also, yes, thread seems kinda pointless, as it's the usual "only beat a wizard by being a wizard, while not being a wizard"-schpiel.

[dextercorvia]

Care to pm me the respective build that led to that statement?

Also, yes, thread seems kinda pointless, as it's the usual "only beat a wizard by being a wizard, while not being a wizard"-schpiel.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetvie...sheetid=364041

That was my Wizard that took out the level 3 party without a scratch (twice). I don't have the link to LonelyTylenol's barbarian.

[animewatcha]

Wizard aside because everyone else that isn't toapat can guess why, I am looking the acfs that he keeps spout off non-stop for the paladin and seeing a 'we can't reconstruct ranger, but we can totally reconstruct paladin cause I say so.' One single paladin can't have all these features at once due to restrictions and a couple here or there than can't be used at same time effectively. The point of 'paladin using wizard spells instead of his own in spell slots' has already shown that paly isn't the one the work but rather 'paly+wizard' which kills the 'paly is doing this on his own.' Heck,

Take earthglide. Paladin either broadcasts where he is ( singing ) or he is underground ( where he begins to suffocate. At the level the paladin gets it, wizard and ranger are pretty much in the air when traveling and much of combat neutralizing much of that. Unless toapat can list source for domain power access besides catalogues of enlightment and eternal order, the domain power access is only greater turning.

Please list out all the acfs being used as the paladin. What is the source of the inspire courage stacking for +10? On it's own, paly version alone is only granting a +1 no matter the level. Also, how is paladin gaining bardic music specifically ( as in actual bardic music usages )? If not, then he very likely is NOT gaining DFI.

If the above were legal, said paladin would be blowing through 'bardic musics' quick as the effects would eventually go bye bye when not continually song. Spellshatter ( the SLA greater magic dispel ) is a once per day melee attack that is wasted if misses. Having spellshatter keeps the paladin from other features used in the argument.

[ShurikVch]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetvie...sheetid=364041

Please, excuse me for my ignorance, but why he have Simple Weapon Proficiency instead Wizard Weapon Proficiency, and since when IUS is "metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery"

[animewatcha]

Dunno on simple weapon prof, but improved unarmed can be gotten for the fighter bonus feat sub in UA ( IIRC? ). You give up scribe scroll and wizard bonus feats to pick up fighter bonus feats as wizard level rate. Gotta qualify for feat.

[Snowbluff]

Please, excuse me for my ignorance, but why he have Simple Weapon Proficiency instead Wizard Weapon Proficiency, and since when IUS is "metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery"

Allow me to educate you. Wizards can swap fighter feats for their wizard feats.

[Coidzor]

Allow me to educate you. Wizards can swap fighter feats for their wizard feats.

Specifically this one. No idea about the Simple Weapon Proficiencies bit offhand, possibly an artifact.