Ranger vs. Wizard

[eggynack]

Why not? It's using an option at his disposal. I mean, if you want to argue about all these long term buffs and such--bonuses and creatures that last for days--you kind of have to acknowledge that the ranger could just devote some of his treasure to the task of solving that deficiency.

Because it's not a thing that the ranger makes significantly better use of than the wizard does, so the wizard can also hire a cleric friend. I mean, I suppose there's some sort of argument about ideal class synergies, but it's an argument that goes to silly places, with the wizard bringing in a psion, and the ranger tossing out a druid, and then the wizard teams up with pun-pun, because why not? Rangers have ranger stuff, which generally means all of their class features, including feats. We tend to accept the use of WBL, despite the fact that it relies on outside support in most cases, because some form of magic mart is going to exist in what I believe to be the majority of games. Hiring on other classes is just pointless, because showing that a cleric plus a ranger can beat a wizard tells us nothing about how good a ranger is. Realistically, based on what we know of the game's balance, it would only tell us how good a cleric is.

[toapat]

So, is equipment allowed? Because if it is, he can buy one-use items or 1/day items to fill his spellcasting needs. Arguing 20th level characters without considering what their gold brings to the table is silly. The class features don't exist in a vacuum--actual characters have equipment to fill in weak points.

Anything a Midgard Dwarf can craft with NI levels of expert is allowed so long as it does not Exceed maximum WBL.

thus, anything covered under Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, and Forge Ring

[animewatcha]

There are no rules that say every single character is monotheistic. A paladin of Milil and Mystra is technically non-conflicting, but only so long as its not a Paladin of Tyranny.

Spellshatter removes remove disease with an equal progression of itself, it may bast more often but its the same thing. Inspire greatness would replace the 2-5th charges but even a single use of a spell you cant prepare is superior to not having it at all. However since Inspire Competence is needed its not taken at all.

The alternatives to the mount were to point out just how much paladin has in that slot.

The only "Legitimate" issue is Dragonfire Inspiration's pre-requisite. I forgot A-Game doesnt actually take that. My appologies.

Long work day. Late night. Chiming in briefly. Will still have to read through the thread.
Say prayers to more than one deity yes. However patron deity can only be one. Gotta choose one or the other. Inspire greatness wouldn't replace if you 2th-5th if you have spellshatter. You would still need remove disease to be replaced. Some alternatives to mount also restrict what can be taken elsewhere. Song of the heart requires bardic music. I believe I saw some item in the thread you linked that enhances the inspire courage, if it has 'if you are a bard' crap, can't use with paly 20.


-edited for song of the heart-

[toapat]

Long work day. Late night. Chiming in briefly. Will still have to read through the thread.
Say prayers to more than one deity yes. However patron deity can only be one. Gotta choose one or the other. Inspire greatness wouldn't replace if you 2th-5th if you have spellshatter. You would still need remove disease to be replaced. Some alternatives to mount also restrict what can be taken elsewhere. Song of the heart requires bardic music. I believe I saw some item in the thread you linked that enhances the inspire courage, if it has 'if you are a bard' crap, can't use with paly 20.


-edited for song of the heart-

Patron Diety: Unless Faerun Explicitely states you cant, Nothing in the PHB says you cant.
Spellshatter: You saying "you cant do that" is actually homebrew.

This benefit replaces the standard paladin's remove disease class feature. If the Mystic Fire Knight would later gain an extra weekly use of remove disease, she instead gains an extra daily use of spellshatter.

The ability Itself names itself as Remove Disease (Variant)

Song of the Heart: From Smite to Song gives you bardic music: Inspire courage
The PDK armor in the thread refferenced is sold by lvl 20. And it works.
None of the mount alternatives conflict with other class features.

[animewatcha]

Patron Diety: Unless Faerun Explicitely states you cant, Nothing in the PHB says you cant.
Spellshatter: You saying "you cant do that" is actually homebrew.

The ability Itself names itself as Remove Disease (Variant)

Song of the Heart: From Smite to Song gives you bardic music: Inspire courage
The PDK armor in the thread refferenced is sold by lvl 20. And it works.
None of the mount alternatives conflict with other class features.

Deities and demigod's divine glossary page 5. Even expains it a bit more within the pages around it.

Spoiler: dieties and demigods

Show

Patron Deity: The primary deity worshiped by an individual. For example, Jozan's patron deity is Pelor, for example

Translation: Choose one. Drop the other.

Spellshatter: Text from the source. Page 46.

Spoiler: Champions of valor

Show

Once per day starting at 6th level, a Mystic Fire Knight can choose to deliver a targeted greater dispel magic effect with a melee attack. The decision to use this ability must be made before the attack is rolled; if the attack misses, the effect is wasted.
If the attacks hits, treat this as if the Mystic Fire Knight had cast a targeted greater dispel magic on the creature struck, using her paladin level ( plus any arcane caster level she might have from another class ) as her caster level, up to a maximum of +20.
This benefit replace the standard paladin's remove disease class feature. If the Mystic Fire Knight would later gain an extra weekly use of remove disease, she instead gains an extra daily use of spellshatter

Translation: Can't grab anything else requiring remove disease. Locks you in at Mystra. Can't use Milil sterf. No 'remove disease (variant)'. Similar deal with Sword of the arcane order.

Song of the heart: Give you the ability to duplicate the effect. Not the actual ability of 'bardic music'. Smite to song also has no text stating that it counts of bardic music for the purposes of pre-reqs, etc. ( The lingo that some of the dodge feats get ) So while you can 'inspire courage' you can't use 'inspire courages a day' to fuel other things that require bardic musics specifically like Song of the heart .

Mount: Previous post, I jumbled a bit myself. What I meant to say was that you were coming off that a paladin had access to multiple mount-required things as once. Like having earthglade, AND sword AND etc. Switching around what ability can be used for x situation while the ranger apparently still uses 'the same thing'. Though a look back did produce a "yes it does for me.' Unicorn Mount: elf paladin. Racial exclusive that can lock out a few other acfs. Interestingly, charging smite acf requires you to have smite attempts, so if you traded that away... Few other nicnacks, like fearless mount for dragonborn's ( lowers bab, but that is more toward other things ). Lion legionnaire you get a flying lion 1/day. Ooo. You can do celestial mount, but you lose remove disease in place of it which means there is infact a confliction with Planar Paladin and no spellshattering. Looking at rest of list briefly on List of ACF from brilliant gameologists, spell-less paladin you gain better mount stuff if you give up your spellcasting. Make the wrong choices on your paladin and you come up with conflictions. There is stand fast, lose special mount to mess with divine grace ( requires you to not have traded it away ). Warded special mount. Lose use of Remove disease to up your mount.

So apparently, there are conflictions. LOL.

PDK armor: The item I was refering to was badge of valor apparently. What is this PDK armor you speak of? Cause I googled 'pdk armor dnd' and it spat out DDO. An MMO with a much different system than normal DnD.

[Doc_Maynot]

PDK armor: The item I was refering to was badge of valor apparently. What is this PDK armor you speak of? Cause I googled 'pdk armor dnd' and it spat out DDO. An MMO with a much different system than normal DnD.

I think they mean the work of Purple_Dragon_Knight

It is a... Thisledown-padded Mithral Breastplate +1 of Nimbleness and Twilight, with Armor Lubricant

Ends up having... AC +6; Max Dex +7; Armor Check Penalty -0; Arcane Spell Failure 0%

[animewatcha]

So what does that armor have to do with bardic music sterf that toapat is desperately trying to hold onto, but keeps getting proven wrong about?

[Coidzor]

So, is equipment allowed? Because if it is, he can buy one-use items or 1/day items to fill his spellcasting needs. Arguing 20th level characters without considering what their gold brings to the table is silly. The class features don't exist in a vacuum--actual characters have equipment to fill in weak points.

Using your WBL to pretend that you're a wizard is basically admitting defeat, and while WBL is important, it's something everyone has, so you have to show that a character can make better use of WBL than another character.

A Wizard can use Limited Wish and Psychic Reformation or another of other tricks(IIRC, there's an oragnization that Wizards can belong to that lets them benefit from a crafting feat they don't have out of a set of them) to pick up various crafting feats and break WBL by making most anything they could want themselves. Even with crafting feats and some of the DMG II variant crafting options, Rangers won't really have the same options open to them without going and paying someone else to provide the spells while they're crafting, diluting their contribution to crafting their own items. And, as mentioned, Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order is already cribbing from the Wizard spell list, so they're no longer really the same animal, they're just a form of Arcane Gish with some divine spells for flair. Mystic Rangers without Sword of the Arcane Order are more competitive than non-Mystic Rangers though, yes.

It's one thing to win with an army of shadesteel golem ice assassins someone else made for you. It's another thing to make that army of shadesteel golem ice assassins yourself.

Also, any money spent to try to catch up to what the wizard is able to do with various buffing options is extra money the wizard has for unique things that either the ranger has to admit they can't afford to replicate or that puts the ranger further into the hole by trying to play catch up.

[Gwendol]

Deities and demigod's divine glossary page 5. Even expains it a bit more within the pages around it.

Song of the heart: Give you the ability to duplicate the effect. Not the actual ability of 'bardic music'. Smite to song also has no text stating that it counts of bardic music for the purposes of pre-reqs, etc. ( The lingo that some of the dodge feats get ) So while you can 'inspire courage' you can't use 'inspire courages a day' to fuel other things that require bardic musics specifically like Song of the heart .

Mount: Previous post, I jumbled a bit myself. What I meant to say was that you were coming off that a paladin had access to multiple mount-required things as once. Like having earthglade, AND sword AND etc. Switching around what ability can be used for x situation while the ranger apparently still uses 'the same thing'. Though a look back did produce a "yes it does for me.' Unicorn Mount: elf paladin. Racial exclusive that can lock out a few other acfs. Interestingly, charging smite acf requires you to have smite attempts, so if you traded that away... Few other nicnacks, like fearless mount for dragonborn's ( lowers bab, but that is more toward other things ). Lion legionnaire you get a flying lion 1/day. Ooo. You can do celestial mount, but you lose remove disease in place of it which means there is infact a confliction with Planar Paladin and no spellshattering. Looking at rest of list briefly on List of ACF from brilliant gameologists, spell-less paladin you gain better mount stuff if you give up your spellcasting. Make the wrong choices on your paladin and you come up with conflictions. There is stand fast, lose special mount to mess with divine grace ( requires you to not have traded it away ). Warded special mount. Lose use of Remove disease to up your mount.

A couple of observations: From Smite to Song doesn't replace smite. It allows the character to IC instead of smiting, but you can still smite if you choose to.

The A-Game paladin doesn't claim Song of the Heart comes from IC, but from the harmonious knight sub levels.

[toapat]

Deities and demigod's divine glossary page 5. Even expains it a bit more within the pages around it.

Spoiler: dieties and demigods

Show

Patron Deity: The primary deity worshiped by an individual. For example, Jozan's patron deity is Pelor, for example

Translation: Choose one. Drop the other.

Spellshatter: Text from the source. Page 46.

Translation: Can't grab anything else requiring remove disease. Locks you in at Mystra. Can't use Milil sterf. No 'remove disease (variant)'. Similar deal with Sword of the arcane order.

Your section refferenced from Deities and Demigods does not support your argument that the rules say you cant have multiple primary dieties, Nor is that definition lacking in the PHB. Unless Faerun explicitely states in the Rules you cant have multiple patron dieties, then you can.

I quoted the relevant subpassage of Spellshatter. You dont care to read it and accept it for what it is, then dont, But you cant say its not Legally still considered Remove disease when other systems are relevant.

And Variants on the mount class feature are never mentioned, because they are typically too expensive to use.

[Talya]

Your section refferenced from Deities and Demigods does not support your argument that the rules say you cant have multiple primary dieties, Nor is that definition lacking in the PHB.

Yeah, in fact the rules explicitly state you can.

Serving a Pantheon: Characters who serve a pantheon venerate several deities, asking each god for intercession in matters that reflect the god’s interest (called a portfolio). For example, a cleric that worships a pantheon based on Greek gods might ask Hermes for an expeditious retreat spell, Athena for an oracular vision, or Hades for the power to repel the undead. Clerics who choose to serve a pantheon can choose their two domains from among all the domains offered by all the deities of the pantheon (except aberrant gods—those whose worship is not sanctioned by the clerics of the pantheon as a whole). A cleric can only select an alignment domain if his alignment matches that domain. The cleric’s alignment must match the alignment of some deity in the pantheon (excluding aberrant gods).

[toapat]

Yeah, in fact the rules explicitly state you can.

I didnt actually know it explicitely said yes, but i had made sure that it never said No

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Yeah, in fact the rules explicitly state you can.

Seems to me that it says you can worship multiple gods not that you can have more than one patron deity.

Unless is specifically says you can have more than one patron deity somewhere?

[toapat]

Seems to me that it says you can worship multiple gods not that you can have more than one patron deity.

Unless is specifically says you can have more than one patron deity somewhere?

/facepalm.

no, its saying explicitly that you can worship and gain the benefits of serving multiple patron deities. its worded very different from the PHB section describing how commoners interact with the gods, being that they worship beings like Pelor Sunny as their main deity but will pay respect to rain gods or to travel gods when they need to have rain/travel.

[Talya]

Seems to me that it says you can worship multiple gods not that you can have more than one patron deity.

Unless is specifically says you can have more than one patron deity somewhere?

read it again.

If you worship a pantheon, you can pick and choose from among all the domains of that pantheon. You don't have to pick a single primary patron.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

read it again.

If you worship a pantheon, you can pick and choose from among all the domains of that pantheon. You don't have to pick a single primary patron.

No. It says you can worship multiple gods but within the game it doesn't say you can have multiple patrons.

In real life sure, people have multiple patron gods. Within the game? It does not say you can have more than one patron deity (main deity).

Like I have a supervisor who is a PM (project manager), however there are multiple PMs in my company that I can ask for assistance from since they have different area of expertise. I don't get much of a choice of who my supervisor is (though my job choice (religion in this example) did..but I do get a choice with who I get info or help from.

Also it talks about Clerics and normal people. Can Paladins choose to even serve multiple gods? Paladins tend to be more strict about everything.

[dextercorvia]

The problem you are running into is that Patron Deity isn't a defined game term. The game doesn't explicitly say you can have a single patron deity, either. It talks about serving one or more deities. The deity or deities you serve are your patron(s).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The problem you are running into is that Patron Deity isn't a defined game term. The game doesn't explicitly say you can have a single patron deity, either. It talks about serving one or more deities. The deity or deities you serve are your patron(s).

So then it comes down to DM call... And if you have to rely on DM call for your build to work...

[toapat]

The problem you are running into is that Patron Deity isn't a defined game term. The game doesn't explicitly say you can have a single patron deity, either. It talks about serving one or more deities. The deity or deities you serve are your patron(s).

It is defined, as the primary diety of worship of the individual.

However Talya linked a passage from complete divine that explicitly states you can have Multiple gods as such.

Granted a pantheon with Milil and Mystra is not official but Faerun's pantheons are all interwoven.

Not only that, but the Dogma of Milil and the Doctrine of the Harmonious Knights is so loose that they would accept a Knight of the Mystic Fire by virtue of just being able to tell a good tale or 5. And its not like anyone dislikes having a manditory attached bard. There is probably some standard forum paperwork Milil has that requests dual patronage because it would help out both the primary deity and himself.

So then it comes down to DM call... And if you have to rely on DM call for your build to work...

Talya dropped a quote that says yes you can have multiple patrons.

[Talya]

No. It says you can worship multiple gods but within the game it doesn't say you can have multiple patrons.

That's not true. Your "Patron Deity" (as dextercorvia points out, the term is not defined in game) is generally considered to be the deity that grants the spells you cast.

The part I quoted explicitly says if you worship a pantheon, different deities will grant your spells depending what you are asking for. If you ask for a charm spell, you pray to Aphrodite or Eros, who grant the spell, whereas if you ask for protection from magic curses, you might pray to Hecate.

Furthermore, once again:
"Clerics who choose to serve a pantheon can choose their two domains from among all the domains offered by all the deities of the pantheon."

Only your "patron" can grant your domain, and you can pick two domains from among all the gods of your pantheon, not needed to be two from the same deity.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It is defined, as the primary diety of worship of the individual.

However Talya linked a passage from complete divine that explicitly states you can have Multiple gods as such.

Granted a pantheon with Milil and Mystra is not official but Faerun's pantheons are all interwoven.

Not only that, but the Dogma of Milil and the Doctrine of the Harmonious Knights is so loose that they would accept a Knight of the Mystic Fire by virtue of just being able to tell a good tale or 5. And its not like anyone dislikes having a manditory attached bard. There is probably some standard forum paperwork Milil has that requests dual patronage because it would help out both the primary deity and himself.



Talya dropped a quote that says yes you can have multiple patrons.

Still DM call to allow it. The gods have to accept that their paladin worships multiple gods as a main deity...

So your argument still relies on DM approval. Hell just because your paladin says he has multiple patrons doesn't mean those deity acknowledge it or like it.

*because the DM can say patron means 1 deity and not multiple gods since patron isnt defined.

[Talya]

Still DM call to allow it. The gods have to accept that their paladin worships multiple gods as a main deity...

So your argument still relies on DM approval. Hell just because your paladin says he has multiple patrons doesn't mean those deity acknowledge it or like it.

The rules explicitly allow it. Therefore, it relies on the DM to disallow it. By default, worshiping of a pantheon is allowed.

Now, Faerun is unique in its rules. As a DM, I probably would be rather strict about which groupings of Faerunian gods my players chose to worship.

Still, there is already a precedent in the many Faerunian organizations that have prestige-classes/substitution levels that are devoted to multiple specific deities. (Sun Soul Monks, for instance.)

[Osiris]

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but:
1) Instantaneous Conjurations are unaffected by Anti-magic Field
2) *Dimension Doors out of AMF*

[eggynack]

2) *Dimension Doors out of AMF*

I'm pretty sure that you can't cast spells while in an AMF, though I can't be completely sure, cause AMF has odd rules. Anyway, you'd be better off just running the shrunken lead hat trick, or just keeping your distance and launching instantaneous conjurations into the AMF from outside it.

[Snowbluff]

I'm pretty sure that you can't cast spells while in an AMF, though I can't be completely sure, cause AMF has odd rules. Anyway, you'd be better off just running the shrunken lead hat trick, or just keeping your distance and launching instantaneous conjurations into the AMF from outside it.

That's generally what I think about it, but it could be argued that D Door, as an instantaneous conjuration, isn't affected by AMF.

[toapat]

I'm pretty sure that you can't cast spells while in an AMF, though I can't be completely sure, cause AMF has odd rules. Anyway, you'd be better off just running the shrunken lead hat trick, or just keeping your distance and launching instantaneous conjurations into the AMF from outside it.

did a bit of checking. Ya, AMF suppresses casting and manifesting within it. Granted a Wizard can easily get sufficiently far away with only a Lesser Celerity and a Dimension door that the field is irrelevant.

That's generally what I think about it, but it could be argued that D Door, as an instantaneous conjuration, isn't affected by AMF.

Except that "To Cast" is actually a non defined term we the players always use to refer to the expenditure of a spell slot, or in shorter terms, To use a spell. which we do see in AMF's description

[Snowbluff]

Except that "To Cast" is actually a non defined term we the players always use to refer to the expenditure of a spell slot, or in shorter terms, To use a spell. which we do see in AMF's description

Instantaneous conjurations are an exception. Spells as a whole are an effect, so it's not so cut and dry.

[eggynack]

It's not so cut and dry.

I think that makes for a reasonable description of AMF as a whole. The base rules are highly complex and open to interpretation, and the addition of changes in the rules compendium somehow made the issue even more complex and open to interpretation. Just a big ol' mess.

[toapat]

Instantaneous conjurations are an exception. Spells as a whole are an effect, so it's not so cut and dry.

The exception is the Effect (Result) of Conjurations with Duration: Instantaneous is not countered. AMF suppresses the use (colloquially: Casting) of spells within it.


Honestly, it would be better if AMF was worded in a less comprehensive manner, and (despite not being within the rules itself) said it Suppressed the casting of spells instead of being Rules correct.

[animewatcha]

Yes, a person can serve a pantheon. Getting a particular deity to count as their patron deity is a different story. Though, I have seen something like to that effect in the Sovereign Host of eberron. Though, sovereign speaker has what toapat would like to have as far as worship goes ( fluff has sovereign host being counted as a single entity/deity ). Patron deity feats even have the 'lose favor with .... or change your patron deity..' But a more direct example of 'I am right' would be forgotten realms campaign setting page under Character description religion after the feats. Namely 'Choosing a patron.'
I can screenshot it for the world to see as I am about to do for spellshatter, but that would be proving toapat wrong ( again ).

Spellshatter: Here is something better than either of our quoted passages. Screenshots.

http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/...pse91cd653.png

http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/...psabbb118f.png

http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/...ps83bde354.png

Versus..

http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3d638bcf.png

So as can be seen. With Spellshatter, you CANNOT make use of second-fifth remove disease. There is no variant notification or 'qualifies as' or anything. Otherwise, people could trade away divine grace and still be able to legally take Serenity ( divine grace is pre-req ).

Mounts: Depends upon what you do with the mount. Heck, healing is normally looked down, yet someone found way to pimp out the Divine Spirit.

@gwendol: The song of the heart from the paladin is that 'since you have inspire courage, it should count as you having bardic music for x'. Unfortunately, 'it should' is houserule territory. See the notes under 'Build stub: Paladin 20' and the 3rd level red asterisk and the variants section later in that post. The song of the heart feat requires you to have bardic music specifically.

http://community.wizards.com/content...-topic/3407376

Pretty much acknowledgement from toapat's own super duper source that you pretty much need houseruling to get it to work.