Smash Brothers 4 General

[Zevox]

I'm curious what the criteria for clone is then. Because honestly as of Brawl, Wolf and Lucas feel more similar to Fox and Ness than Ganondorf does to Captain Falcon. At least to me.

I can't imagine how that's possible. As I pointed out, Wolf/Fox and Lucas/Ness share almost no moves - only really three specials and a final smash. Ganondorf's moves are almost universally Captain Falcon's but slower and stronger, with only a few exceptions. They're opposite ends of the spectrum, with Ganondorf being about the most clone-y of any character in Brawl (competing with Toon Link only for that) while Lucas and Wolf are the characters that are the least like the characters that they share some moves with. (Except for Ike and Marth, who share counter and nothing else, but nobody accuses them of being clones, unlike Wolf and Lucas.)

Their side specials are very different, Ganondorf doesn't have the super knee thing, or really, most of his smashes are different than Caps. No double kick up smash, can't jab combo, have completely different final smashes. It all adds up to him just playing differently to me. When I play Wolf or Fox the only differences I notice are the gun dealing more damage but not spammable and the side special going at a 45 degree angle instead of straight. I know there's more to them, but they end up playing similar.

I can only imagine that you simply play far more Ganondorf than Wolf or Lucas, then, because there's simply no comparison here. And you're actually just factually wrong about Ganondorf's smashes - two of the three are literally just Captain Falcon's but slower and stronger, with the only difference being his up smash being a single hit instead of two, and even that is still a high kick attack that at the same angle as Cap's. The only moves that really differ significantly between the two are their up tilts (with Ganondorf's getting that explosion when it drops and being stupid slow - still the same animation otherwise, though), forward airs (Ganondorf gets an overhead punch instead of the knee), and Ganondorf's lack of multiple jabs you already mentioned (but his jab is still just a slower, stronger version of Cap's first one). And final smashes, but final smashes don't really matter in this respect, since you can't even use them without an item.

And as someone who mained Lucas and also played Ness? Yeah, outside of their recovery (damn PK thunder...) and their weird double-jump arc, there's no similarity between them in practice. Hell, Lucas actually has possibly the most unique back air in the entire game, being the only one I can think of that's designed to knock the opponent downward (it's a spike move) instead of back horizontally.

[Sith_Happens]

When I play Wolf or Fox the only differences I notice are the gun dealing more damage but not spammable and the side special going at a 45 degree angle instead of straight. I know there's more to them, but they end up playing similar.

For one thing, Wolf is 150% more conductive to accidental suicides. I should know, I main him and still average a self-destruct per brawl.

[Zevox]

Back on discussing our new characters, Sakurai gave a couple of details about how Robin functions in today's picture-of-the-day posts. The Levin Sword has a limited number of uses, and is replaced by the Bronze Sword when it breaks, but it will regenerate over time. His tomes he says "change with each special attack" use - which I take to mean that each special attack uses a different tome, since we don't see Robin dropping a tome every time he casts a spell in the trailer. So, I'd guess that a tome running out will work similarly to the Levin sword - that special move becomes unavailable for a time. Perhaps replaced by something else? Sword attacks, maybe?

I'm really curious what the differences between the Levin and Bronze swords will be. Do entire moves change, or is it just a difference in hitting power? I hope the former, because the latter would be kind of dull. Also because it would be nice to see the Levin Sword actually tossing some lightning around for some of its moves, rather than just being a fancy-looking sword.

[OracleofWuffing]

I'm betting the Bronze Sword is just a strict power-down from the Levin Sword (not necessarily just damage, maybe shorter range and/or fewer special effects, too, but no change in general attack directions). Otherwise, it kind of falls into making a character transform into another character, and they were kind of trying to cut those out. That said, I don't know anything about the Levin Sword in-series, so all I'm running off of is that it had yeast added during the forging process.

It comes to mind they totally should start making Links' sword shoot lasers when he's at 0% health damage.

[Hytheter]

I'm really curious what the differences between the Levin and Bronze swords will be. Do entire moves change, or is it just a difference in hitting power? I hope the former, because the latter would be kind of dull. Also because it would be nice to see the Levin Sword actually tossing some lightning around for some of its moves, rather than just being a fancy-looking sword.

Yeah I'll be kind of annoyed if it can't actually shoot lightning - but the fact he has a Arc/El/Thunder/Thoron Tome makes it seem unlikely. It'll probably just have electricky particles and effects when it hits them.
Ironically, in Awakening the sword only shot lightning; for some reason you couldn't actually hit people with it, which irritated me as well. I mean, for as long as I had the Levin Sword which... wasn't very long.

It comes to mind they totally should start making Links' sword shoot lasers when he's at 0% health.

That would be awesome.

[Zevox]

I'm betting the Bronze Sword is just a strict power-down from the Levin Sword (not necessarily just damage, maybe shorter range and/or fewer special effects, too, but no change in general attack directions). Otherwise, it kind of falls into making a character transform into another character, and they were kind of trying to cut those out. That said, I don't know anything about the Levin Sword in-series, so all I'm running off of is that it had yeast added during the forging process.

It comes to mind they totally should start making Links' sword shoot lasers when he's at 0% health.

The Levin Sword in Fire Emblem is a magic blade that shoots lightning, allowing it to be used to attack from either one or two spaces away, something that normally only magic and throwing weapons can do. (Its damage is also based on the magic stat instead of strength, but that's hardly relevant to Smash Bros.) My hope would be that they treat it as such, and have some of its attacks involve it actually shooting lightning, rather than just treat it like a cool-looking sword that leaves a fancy lightning effect on the target when it connects.

I'd hardly compare having a couple of moves change under specific circumstances equivalent to total character change, either. I sincerely doubt that's a concern at all.

[Zevox]

Apparently, Sakurai recently did an interview about the choice of new Fire Emblem characters for Smash, which has been translated by a poster from NeoGaf. He explains why Robin and Lucina were chosen over Chrom to be playable.

Interesting to note is that he did consider making Lucina an alternate costume for Marth. Apparently the only reason she isn't is because he decided to remove the sword-tip sweet-spot from her, to make her easier for new players to use than Marth. He says that "In that sense, you could say she was very lucky to join the fray!"

I'll say this: it is kind of good to know he did consider making her a costume instead. I don't think in the slightest that removing the tipper mechanic was a good reason to do otherwise, though. It's really not that big of a deal.

He also confirms what I guessed earlier - Robin's spells are assigned to different special moves (Neutral = thunder, chargeable for the more powerful versions; up = wind, side = fire, down = Nosferatu), and the tomes will break and regenerate like the Levin Sword. No mention of the moves being replaced while the tomes are broken, though, so they may just become unavailable then.

Edit: Okay, I have to say, Lucina!-Kirby is awesome.

[Altaria87]

Sakurai did only say that Lucina and Chrom had the same 'strength, speed and special attacks', so there could still be differences in their standards and aerials. I want to believe.

[Xondoure]

Got a chance to try the game out at comic con today! So far Little Mac is my favorite out of the newcomers with Wii Fit Trainer in dead last. I just couldn't get her to work well at all. Villager is fun if a bit tricky. That bowling ball... And I agree with earlier discussion of how Mega Man seems to lack finishing power. Rosalina was cool I suppose. Zelda's new down b is fun if not quite what she needed.

Unrelated: Hyrule Warriors is wicked fun.

[digitalworkshed]

Can't wait for this game to be released! Been playing Smash Bros and I can't get enough of it! Sooooo excited!

[tonberrian]

Maybe we'll get Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf for Smash!

...

I can dream...

[Zevox]

Maybe we'll get Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf for Smash!

...

I can dream...

I certainly hope so. If nothing else I want that appearance as alternate costume for him. Preferably also a moveset like that one.

[OracleofWuffing]

Did we ever get confirm/deny on those people claiming that Gannnnondorf was appearing in the Best Buy demos from random selections?

In other news? For the Frog the Bell Tolls. Yes!

[Maryring]

One thing I'm thinking about Ganondorf. Everyone's getting some updates due to there now being multiple sets of special moves for all characters to offer some customization, right? If so, might mean that while Ganondorf still has CF's punch, kick and uppercut, the new sets of specials might be different from one another.

[Zevox]

One thing I'm thinking about Ganondorf. Everyone's getting some updates due to there now being multiple sets of special moves for all characters to offer some customization, right? If so, might mean that while Ganondorf still has CF's punch, kick and uppercut, the new sets of specials might be different from one another.

That would by no means solve the problem. It's not just his special moves that don't fit Ganondorf, it's the normals as well. He's a dark sorcerer and sometimes swordfighter, not a fist-fighting brawler. He should have a moveset that's actually based on how he fights, just like everyone else.

[Geno9999]

The most important part of today's update: you can buy trophies now.
All my Yeah!

[Knaight]

The most important part of today's update: you can buy trophies now.
All my Yeah!

Hopefully there is also a new trophy minigame - I quite enjoyed the one in Brawl, and even in Melee the slot machine wasn't bad.

[TheSummoner]

I never had a problem having to actually earn them... Or wouldn't had the game just given me a chance to get the 5 or so I still needed and didn't insist on giving me 20 of the ones I already had.

[Dienekes]

Did trophies ever do anything? I think I checked them out when I first got the game and then never bothered with them again. Or are they like achievements which are essentially useless but people try to collect them anyway?

[Zevox]

Did trophies ever do anything? I think I checked them out when I first got the game and then never bothered with them again. Or are they like achievements which are essentially useless but people try to collect them anyway?

Pretty much, yeah. And I'm of the same mindset - I really don't care what they do with trophies in the slightest. Doesn't impact me in any way, because I'm not into collecting things just for the sake of collecting.

[TheSummoner]

I sorta doubt it will happen, but does anyone else think that the other captains from Pikmin would be perfect as alternate skins for Olimar?

This thought certainly has nothing to do with me learning to speedrun Pikmin... Certainly not...

[Altaria87]

So is anyone else's mind blown by today's Sakurai picture?

I think it means Meta-Knight is confirmed because he's being shown with Samus but I don't even know what to believe anymore.

[Zevox]

So is anyone else's mind blown by today's Sakurai picture?

I think it means Meta-Knight is confirmed because he's being shown with Samus but I don't even know what to believe anymore.

It means only that there are more ways to customize Miis than we previously knew, nothing more. Meta-Knight will be confirmed when he actually gets revealed - or when the game comes out, since it'll be out in Japan in about a month, and they don't seem to be rushing to confirm the missing veterans, so they're probably holding some back due to being unlockable. Not that there's any doubt that he'll be playable anyway, since there'd be no reason to remove him.

[Hytheter]

Not that there's any doubt that he'll be playable anyway, since there'd be no reason to remove him.

Sakurai: "We felt Meta Knight was too powerful, so we removed him entirely. (laughs)"

[Zevox]

Sakurai: "We felt Meta Knight was too powerful, so we removed him entirely. (laughs)"

Right, because Sakurai has displayed so very much concern over and understanding of the games' competitive balance to date.

Plus, really, what idiot would think that the response to a character being too powerful is to remove them rather than change them?

[Hytheter]

Come on, I was obviously joking.

Besides, based on people's impressions of the demo versions, and some of Sakurai's comments, I don't think it's fair to say he's not concerned with balancing the fighters.

[Zevox]

Besides, based on people's impressions of the demo versions, and some of Sakurai's comments, I don't think it's fair to say he's not concerned with balancing the fighters.

It's those very things, combined with the evidence of the previous games, which leads me to the reverse conclusion. Or at least, if he is at all concerned with balancing the game, he hasn't the slightest clue how to.

[Hytheter]

I don't know how the Demo impressions or Sakurai's comments lead you to the reverse conclusion; from what I've heard the general consensus is that all the characters bar Zelda (who sucks) are pretty well balanced, and I'm sure Sakurai has stated several times that balance is important to him.

[OracleofWuffing]

Plus, really, what idiot would think that the response to a character being too powerful is to remove them rather than change them?

The same kind of idiot that would randomly have fighters trip when running around. This was also a joke and not meant to be taken seriously. I'm just bitter about the Meta Knight tease.

[Sith_Happens]

Plus, really, what idiot would think that the response to a character being too powerful is to remove them rather than change them?

Mewtwo.

...Not that he was too good, just, what kind of idiot removes Mewtwo?