May a druid shave their legs?

[BananaPhone]

As the tin says: is a druid "allowed" (for lack of a better word) to shave their legs?

I ask this because at my local gaming group this topic brought about a surprising division.

One camp argued that, as naturalists that forsake all but the most rudimentary of technology and civilised comforts, shaved legs would be absent. This is because of the lack of tools to perform such an act of grooming (metal knives + shaving cream etc), the refusal to do so, or a combination thereof.

The second camp argued that personal grooming would still be permitted, otherwise all male druids would have beards down to their ankles by the time they're 30, in addition to obscenely long, disheveled hair and creepy neckbeard-esque long fingernails.

So, what do others think?

[Slipperychicken]

By the rules, I think so. Bear in mind the tremendous possibility for variation within the druid class.


But honestly, this sounds like an awesome division to have in-universe, with "orthodox" druids (and their followers) preaching near-total rejection of civilized culture, while relatively liberal druids are willing to accept the trappings of civilization to varying degrees as long as it doesn't compromise their core values. The division might also help to polarize their attitudes toward city-dwellers and townsfolk.

[erikun]

If we are talking D&D, Druids may use metal swords to stab people and metal knives to cut small game. They have no problem with properly forged metals in these cases, so I wonder why a razor would be taboo. (Druids are also fine with haircuts, last time I checked.) The general goal of Druids were not complete destruction of all technology, but a balance or equilibrium between civilization and wilderness.

That said, as Slipperychicken mentioned, there might be very good RP reasons (perhaps even ingrained into druid society) that would make it taboo or frowned upon. And individuals may decide not to do so for personal reasons, of course.

[TheCountAlucard]

Depilatories are also an option!

[OracleofWuffing]

If we're tossing out all but the most rudimentary of technology and comforts, then Druids shouldn't be able to use scrolls, read books, wear clothes, or use magic items. [snark]Which would almost balance the class out with Fighters.[/snark]

For what it's worth, the Druid on page 47 of Sandstorm looks pretty clean shaven. I mean, I know going by book illustrations is probably even worse than going by sage FAQ, but still.

[Talyn]

Not to mention that you can shave with sharpened flakes of stone, or sea shells. You don't need steel (or bronze) razors to shave.

On the other hand, shaving one's legs is generally out of place in a quasi-medieval era anyways. Women shaving under their arms and their legs only became a "thing" in Western Europe/the United States after the first World War, when sleeveless dresses over bare arms became fashionable. For the rest of human history, the only hair the a woman, even a fashion-conscious, "civilized" woman, would shave (or pluck!) would be around their eyebrows and, if they were unlucky, on their lips and chin.

[Leviting]

use knives made of obsidian or bone. No metal allowed! But still cut hair.You don't need to be civilized to do that.

[Excession]

IIRC around Roman times one method of shaving was to scrub with a pumice stone. No metal required. Also, ow.

[Knaight]

But honestly, this sounds like an awesome division to have in-universe, with "orthodox" druids (and their followers) preaching near-total rejection of civilized culture, while relatively liberal druids are willing to accept the trappings of civilization to varying degrees as long as it doesn't compromise their core values. The division might also help to polarize their attitudes toward city-dwellers and townsfolk.

I would second this - and also note that both of these have fantasy archetypes backing them up. The wild man with a beard down to their ankles, unkempt long hair, and rags or furs is very much a thing. So are beautiful fey associated with nature. Druids could easily run the gamut from one of these to the other, with an in universe division being a good way to handle it.

[Deophaun]

One camp argued that, as naturalists that forsake all but the most rudimentary of technology and civilised comforts, shaved legs would be absent. This is because of the lack of tools to perform such an act of grooming (metal knives + shaving cream etc), the refusal to do so, or a combination thereof.

The one ritual we have any historical knowledge of is the ritual of oak a mistletoe, which involved a golden sickle. So the prohibition against metal is nonsense.

As is the whole hippy tree hugging nature warrior conception.

And no, it's just a coincidence that all references to nature worship were burned out of the druid entry in my 3.5 PHB. A complete accident, really.

[Leviting]

Burned? as in with what, a candle?

[Mastikator]

Dude, chimps groom each other, grooming is not the sole domain of humans. A druid may too. A druid would also take baths in lakes and use flowers (and other natural stuff) as perfume. Being natural doesn't mean you have to be disgusting.

[imaloony]

Not all Druids are against man-made tools. In most (If not all, I haven't extensively played all) editions of D&D they're allowed to be proficient with plenty of man-made weapons such as daggers and scimitars.

Let's look at Eragon as a frame of reference. Now, Eragon doesn't have Druids, per say, but the Elves are pretty Druid-ish. They live pretty much on nature and magic alone, they're mostly vegetarians, and they love to sing to trees. Eragon's mentor, Oromis, insisted that Eragon shave his face daily and gave him a razor to do it with (Even though Eragon eventually ended up using magic to shave).

Of course, Eragon =/= D&D, but it shows that just because you like to live amongst nature doesn't mean you have to reject everything that comes from the civilized world.

[Deophaun]

Burned? as in with what, a candle?

Hate. Pure, unadulterated, hate.

And a candle. Yes.

But mostly hate.

[Rhynn]

Yes.

One camp argued that, as naturalists that forsake all but the most rudimentary of technology and civilised comforts

Arguing facts not in evidence, begging the question, plus obviously not true if you think about it at all.

That said, what sort of setting are you running if male druids don't have enormously long beards?!

[SiuiS]

One camp argued that, as naturalists that forsake all but the most rudimentary of technology and civilised comforts, shaved legs would be absent. This is because of the lack of tools to perform such an act of grooming (metal knives + shaving cream etc), the refusal to do so, or a combination thereof.

This does not describe Druids at all.
Druids were scientists, politicians, power brokers and set social policy enough that they would ascribe to it, not shun it.

Failing that much historicity, Druids re a mystery cult that throws on some nature trappings but are basically shapeshifting clerics. They use high technology weapons, benefit from an understanding of advanced theological sciences, and are deeply in time with elemental and faerie powers none of this has anything at all to do with shunning civilization or being a 'naturalist'.

The real question at this point is; why is ANYONE in a paeudomedieval setting shaving their legs? It's a waste of time, sharp knife, good water, and in a world where people don't frequently bathe it's stupid. Why risk a life threatening infection in order to appeal to modern sexual sensibilities?

[Xuc Xac]

For the rest of human history, the only hair the a woman, even a fashion-conscious, "civilized" woman, would shave (or pluck!) would be around their eyebrows and, if they were unlucky, on their lips and chin.

Ancient Egyptians shaved everything from head to toe. The women wore wigs.

[Knaight]

The real question at this point is; why is ANYONE in a paeudomedieval setting shaving their legs? It's a waste of time, sharp knife, good water, and in a world where people don't frequently bathe it's stupid. Why risk a life threatening infection in order to appeal to modern sexual sensibilities?

The frequency of bathing is massively understated in popular sources. For one thing, there were plenty of functional Roman baths all over Europe during the medieval period - not as many as the late Roman period, but still a fair few. They didn't suddenly get abandoned when the medieval period started. It's also worth noting that much of the criticism regarding European bathing practices came from Islamic civilizations, in which partial bathing five times a day was more or less standard, and even then it was along the lines of "these people in really cold conditions that aren't even all that humid bathe only once a week", which is a far cry from the per year measurements frequently given.

[Cicciograna]

I seemed to remember that Druids were prohibited from using metal tools of whatsoever fashion. However, I went to check the part of their class features that deals with such a prohibition, and this is what I found:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Druids are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape.

Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. (A druid may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description) Druids are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only wooden ones.

A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

Emphasis mine.
No mention whatsoever of weapons or general tools, just metal armor and shields; so not only a razor would be kosher, but at this point even a greatsword would be, with the only caveat of the -4 for the non-proficiency.
Huh.

[GolemsVoice]

Not to mention that one could probably devise some kind of spell for shaving, if one desires to do so but doesn't want to use metal razors.

[Cicciograna]

Not to mention that one could probably devise some kind of spell for shaving, if one desires to do so but doesn't want to use metal razors.

Depilatory, 0th level spell from BoEF. Alas, it's only Bard, Sor/Wiz and "Imagist", which is a new base class from the book.

[lytokk]

Wouldn't this be one of those many uses for prestidigitation?

[Beleriphon]

As the tin says: is a druid "allowed" (for lack of a better word) to shave their legs?

You know there are cleanliness reason to shave or remove excess body hair. The big one is that parasites can't hide in it. Also among men being clean or closely shaven can actually make you warmer in the winter as long as you wear apporpriate clothing. The reason being is that you're not having your own exhaled moisture freezing onto your beard.

[Ceiling_Squid]

The frequency of bathing is massively understated in popular sources. For one thing, there were plenty of functional Roman baths all over Europe during the medieval period - not as many as the late Roman period, but still a fair few. They didn't suddenly get abandoned when the medieval period started. It's also worth noting that much of the criticism regarding European bathing practices came from Islamic civilizations, in which partial bathing five times a day was more or less standard, and even then it was along the lines of "these people in really cold conditions that aren't even all that humid bathe only once a week", which is a far cry from the per year measurements frequently given.

Thanks for bringing this up. I was about to cry foul myself until I saw your post. This is one historical misrepresentation that irks me pretty badly. Monty Python interpretation aside, people in the middle ages din't go around wallowing in dung and refuse, refusing to bathe.

As for the OP, I'm going to echo the general sentiment in the thread. Why not make it so druids from different circles and orders have different practices? If DnD druids are basically nature clerics, they, like clerics, should have different practices depending on where they're from and what powers they serve. I don't think druids should be any more monolithic than other religious characters.

[BananaPhone]

Why not make it so druids from different circles and orders have different practices?

Because I'm not some high lord of my groups gaming world that dictates Druid grooming policy .

I'm just some mug transferring a discussion from RL to the interwebs.

[Red Fel]

Even if I accepted the argument that Druids forsake all technology and civilization (which I don't, depending on the setting) I absolutely could not accept the argument that Druids must therefore forsake basic grooming.

Grooming is a natural process. It comes up all the time. The bear scratches his back against a tree. The monkey plucks bugs from a baby's fur. The bird preens her plumage. The dog dives into the water and then shakes himself dry all over my clean carpet.

I mean, just look at a cat. Seriously. Look at it. For hours. Just... sitting there. Licking that same spot on its leg. Over. And over. And over. The exact same spot. It's perfectly clean, and it just keeps licking. Just to taunt me. Over. And over...

Where was I? Oh, right. Grooming is natural and your Druid smells bad because he doesn't bathe.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Do note that some people believe it is a druid's duty to shave the trees. And shave the whales. And shave pretty much all the bits of the ecosystem threatened by Orc industrialism.



(But really. Druid catchphrase: "SHAVE THE TREES!")

[Perturbulent]

Am I the only wondering where the distinction between shaving and personal hygiene went?

There's nothing unhygienic about being unshaven. As it stands, most complex shaving is a relatively new practice (barring some intricate beard groomers).
The effect of shaving is purely aesthetic, beyond evading complication of things such as tripping over one's hair or beard and getting it caught in things. That however would be regarded as trimming more than shaving.

[Ravens_cry]

Am I the only wondering where the distinction between shaving and personal hygiene went?

There's nothing unhygienic about being unshaven. As it stands, most complex shaving is a relatively new practice (barring some intricate beard groomers).
The effect of shaving is purely aesthetic, beyond evading complication of things such as tripping over one's hair or beard and getting it caught in things. That however would be regarded as trimming more than shaving.

Male figures appear without beards even in ancient cave paintings, so removing facial hair is hardly a new practice. It's not like you need metal for it An obsidian blade can make a fine razor.

[Themrys]

As the tin says: is a druid "allowed" (for lack of a better word) to shave their legs?

I ask this because at my local gaming group this topic brought about a surprising division.

One camp argued that, as naturalists that forsake all but the most rudimentary of technology and civilised comforts, shaved legs would be absent. This is because of the lack of tools to perform such an act of grooming (metal knives + shaving cream etc), the refusal to do so, or a combination thereof.

The second camp argued that personal grooming would still be permitted, otherwise all male druids would have beards down to their ankles by the time they're 30, in addition to obscenely long, disheveled hair and creepy neckbeard-esque long fingernails.

So, what do others think?

A druid who shaves her or his legs would be somewhat odd.

Without metals, you would still have short fingernails - they tend to break when you work with your hands. People with very long fingernails usually get those from not doing any work AND not cutting them. Broken fingernails can hurt, so a druid may want to bite them to keep them so short they don't break, or maybe cut them with a stone knife, depending on whether they care what the nails look like.

Hair and beard can be kept short with stone knives or fire. Most people are not able to grow hair longer than themselves, anyway. I guess the same is true for beard hair.