3.5 Bard am I missing something, or is this class really so bad?

[Vaz]

Any noteworthy examples?

I can build a Bard to cause all allies within a 314.5 square mile area to deal +17d6 Sonic Damage.

Social Stuff can win campaigns. With a single feat and spell combination, it can get effectively +40 to a bluff check to tell a lie, and with a stndard action and moderate synergy optimizing turn allies into fanatical, mind controlled enemies. And with Charm spells, everyone is an ally. Who 'needs' ultrahigh DC's on SoD's, when everything you've ever met would throw themselves into the mouth of a dragon to clog it up to prevent it from breathing on you?

Spell list increasing is still a thing.

[SiuiS]

I don't get it... So few spells. Slow progression.

Quality over quantity.

Bards also benefit from the added bonus of not being broken, which means most DMs will let you play one; entire campaigns have elapsed which preclude anything higher than tier 3 at it's base. They also have "DM gives me hints" as a class feature and while their main ability can bolster them, it is also directly able to make everyone else in the party better too. I imagine that goes over really well in a cooperative game compared to the usual "Stand aside while I win this one" you get from most good classes.

Bard can do everything wizard can do, too. Not so much the other way around, though. That's gotta count for something, right?

[eggynack]

Quality over quantity.

Also quantity. Bards do get few spells per day, at a slow progression, and off of a generally worse list... compared to sorcerers. However, bards get a lot of spells per day, at a fast progression, and off of a generally better list than a solid chunk of classes, ranging from paladins to rangers to adepts, to say nothing of fighters and barbarians who get nothing at all. Thus, bards are worse than sorcerers, and better than rangers, and for the most part, it's as simple as that. There's a bunch of other factors, and the comparison gets a lot more complicated when you factor in classes that are closer in power level, like the beguiler (that's where you get more of a quality over quantity comparison), but it's a great start.

[Vaz]

Yeah good point. Not many classe have 'give me free XP during downtime' as a class feature. There is Gather Information skill and the Sapphire Hierarch, plus the other Bardic Knowledge variants like Cloistered Cleric.

You can compare a Bard to world rending power of a Psion in a world with Spell to Power Erudites and Wyrm Wizards, and it will not match up (until you Bluff them into lowering their Mind Blank and then Diplomance them into your pocket; at which point their power is your power). Or you can compare it to a Warblade (who hits harder, and harder, and harder...) or Warmage (who casts blastier nd blastier spells) or a Shugenja.

[Story]

Bard can do everything wizard can do, too. Not so much the other way around, though. That's gotta count for something, right?

Sorry, what? You sure you didn't get that backwards? (though even then it's still not accurate, as I don't think Wizards can quite emulate IC)

[Cloud]

Pretty sure that comment was along the lines of, they get a nice selection of spells so can do many tricks the Wizard can do, and then also gets Inspire Courage, so was meant how it was said.

Which sums up nicely why the Bard is the opposite of really bad, it's rather good.

[Talya]

When you think about it, a bard is a good way for a newer character to learn the really good wizard spells -- because they don't get the blasty spells wizards shouldn't be using. So a bard gets you in the habit of using the excellent spells that wizards SHOULD be using.

[nyjastul69]

Technically, there's no instructions on when you need to apply WoC. You could, theoretically, start your bardic music normally, and then, three rounds later when a big bad shows up in the middle of a routine fight, kick your bardic music into Exalted gear by incorporating the WoC. So yeah, you could get up to +14 with IB and BoV.

Okay, I see what your saying now. Although WoC shouldn't be allowed to be used outside of your own turn. But since WoC doesn't list an action cost I can see how some GM's might allow that. I dont , but my opinion is irrelevant as regards RAW. So with what I stated previously, and a fairly generous ruling ;), we're looking at +16 from IC?

[Vaz]

Be a warforged reforged for +17/18.

[gorfnab]

Bard 1/Druid 2/Rogue 2/Green Whisperer 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

Try this instead:
Bard 2/ Druid 3/ Green Whisperer 3/ Spelldancer 2/ Sublime Chord 1/ Fochlucan Lyrist 9
- 7 levels of Bard Casting (3rd level spells), 16 levels of Druid casting (8th level spells), and 10 levels of Sublime Chord casting (9th level spells)

[Socratov]

I can build a Bard to cause all allies within a 314.5 square mile area to deal +17d6 Sonic Damage.

Social Stuff can win campaigns. With a single feat and spell combination, it can get effectively +40 to a bluff check to tell a lie, and with a stndard action and moderate synergy optimizing turn allies into fanatical, mind controlled enemies. And with Charm spells, everyone is an ally. Who 'needs' ultrahigh DC's on SoD's, when everything you've ever met would throw themselves into the mouth of a dragon to clog it up to prevent it from breathing on you?

Spell list increasing is still a thing.

You know, I did this trick with a variation. Combat encounter: diplomance/bluff/intimidate (in that order). next combat encounter, same procedure. it meant that I 'solved' all of the combat encounters before they begun, in a gestalted lvl 6 setting. I totally broke the setting thanks to all the spells Bard has to boost social checks (didn't have glibness yet but there are other options). My party started to hate me btw. Sadly the campaign died quickly. funny thing, my colleagues were trying to pull any kind of combat trick but talking. it was glorious

[SliceandDiceKid]

How to get a whole lot of Inspire Courage/DFI:

lvl 20: IC 4
Vest of Legends: doesn't really help here since lvl 26 is the next inspire courage bump
Masterwork Horn: increases the Accuracy bonus of IC by 1, loses fear resistance
Song of the Heart (eberron song for feat ACF): IC +1
Inspiration boost (SpC)/Badge of Valour(MIC) (activated in that order, costing your next turn's swift action): +1 and +1 IC
Words of Creation: current total * 2
So: (4+1+1+1+1)*2= 16 bonus to to-hit, (4+1+1+1)*2=14 bonus to damage
or
since DFI is keyed off the to-hit bonus of IC where 1 bonus to to-hit equals 1d6 of fire damage (unless you have a different and clear parentage with a breath weapon of one of the main 5 elemental damage types [fire, cold, acid, sonic, electric])

which equals 16d6 fire damage on each hit. No imagine 2 lion totem whirling frenzy barbarians. A crater sounds like an apt description of the aftermath.

Now if you take levels in classes that don't advance bard, you can buy a Vest of legends, and/or take the feat Chaos Music. the former makes you appear 5 levels higher for bardic music purposes, the latter 4 levels higher for bardic music purposes, capped by your total hitdice (i.e. bard 9/virtuoso 1/ with Vest of legends and chaos music counts as bard 15 for the purpose of bardic music and a bard 9/fighter 6 with vest of legends and chaos music counts as a lvl 18 bard for bardic music purposes).

Hope that clears it up.

Please note, I interpret that if you have used your swift action for Inspirational Boost (spell, swift action) and then use your badge of valour (immediate action for next turn's swift action) that it's possible. This may not be entirely legal but it can be interpreted that way in the SRD. Incredibly cheesy though to abuse action rules like that though... else you're stuck with only a measly 14d6 bonus damage for every ally within hearing distance... Sheesh...

Thank you for the first ACTUAL step by step explanation. The previous condescending remarks and vague links didnt add up. This is crazy.

[dextercorvia]

Also, they aren't mutually exclusive. So, you can start with DFI one round, then let that song go, and start a regular inspire courage the next. So, in round two all you allies get +14 attack, and +14d6+14 damage. If you have enough party members that double damage, you want to do IC first, since the static boost gets doubled.

[Taffimai]

Thank you for the first ACTUAL step by step explanation. The previous condescending remarks and vague links didnt add up. This is crazy.

It is also highly questionable. Words of Creation specifies that it sets IC to +2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th level and +8 at 20th level. Doubling it after you apply other buffs and feats to it means you stopped reading halfway through the sentence. You also take 3d4 nonlethal damage every time you do it.

[dextercorvia]

It is also highly questionable. Words of Creation specifies that it sets IC to +2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th level and +8 at 20th level. Doubling it after you apply other buffs and feats to it means you stopped reading halfway through the sentence. You also take 3d4 nonlethal damage every time you do it.

Examples are not rules text. That is how it would work for an ordinary Bard -- the only kind when BoED was published.

Belt of Healing.

[Togo]

Just a brief shout-out to the harmonise line of spells, from Races of Stone.

A higher level bard should definitely consider greater harmonise, which allows you to start bardsong as a move action. Combine with the large number of swift-action spells, feats and magic items, and a bard can comfortably manage three actions a round, spell, bardsong, and swift action. Or get one of the p-classes that lets you do two bardsongs as a single action, and spam out four bardsongs in the first round.

[dextercorvia]

But, Harmonize costs a Standard action, so it forces you to basically stand still for the first two rounds of combat, except during the 2nd round you get a Standard action.

Round 1
Std: IC
Swift: Insp Boost
Move: ??

Round 2
Std: DFI
Swift Insp. Boost
Move: ??

vs.

Round 1
Std: Harmonize
Move: IC
Swift:Insp. Boost

Round 2
Move: DFI
Swift: Insp. Boost
Standard: ??

Now, if you can have it Persisted for free, via Spelldancer, or something, then Harmonize is worth it.

[SliceandDiceKid]

[QUOTE=Talya;17300009]My ideal bard build if single classed:

How do you account for draconic heritage without 1st level sorcerer?

[dextercorvia]

[QUOTE=SliceandDiceKid;17304388]

My ideal bard build if single classed:

How do you account for draconic heritage without 1st level sorcerer?

Dragontouched feat.

[Bloodgruve]

Bards, IMHO, are just such a great class to apply different builds to. They're great Gish's or can be built to cast 9th level spells or both.. Its much more interesting to me then Wizard or Cleric or Druid even if its not as versatile. You could even Dual Wield electric scorpion whips (PF) if you wanted to be that guy.

Plus, who wouldn't follow a full ranked Beat Boxing bard into battle? Defeat your enemies using Mosh Pit tactics.

Every campaign I get to play in Bard is my first choice, unfortunately it's also the choice of other players whom I concede to and end up playing a different class :/

Blood~

[eggynack]

Dragontouched feat.

If I'm not mistaken, silverbrow human also works.

[SliceandDiceKid]

If I'm not mistaken, silverbrow human also works.

From everything I've googled this morning I think it just assigns you cold as a silverbrow. It wouldn't conceptually be worth two feats to me to change that to sonic.

[dextercorvia]

If I'm not mistaken, silverbrow human also works.

Dragontouched has two benefits. The first is that you get the dragonblood subtype (which silverbrow also does). The second is that you qualfiy for Draconic Feats as if you were a sorcerer of your character level -- this is the only way to get that, short of being a sorcerer.

From everything I've googled this morning I think it just assigns you cold as a silverbrow. It wouldn't conceptually be worth two feats to me to change that to sonic.

Silverbrow has you descended from silver dragons, but it doesn't change your damage type. The only things that do that are Half Dragon, Draconic Heritage, and a level of Dragon Shaman.

Ironically, an actual Silver Dragon Bard would still get Fire for his energy type if he took DFI.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Dragontouched has two benefits. The first is that you get the dragonblood subtype (which silverbrow also does). The second is that you qualfiy for Draconic Feats as if you were a sorcerer of your character level -- this is the only way to get that, short of being a sorcerer.



Silverbrow has you descended from silver dragons, but it doesn't change your damage type. The only things that do that are Half Dragon, Draconic Heritage, and a level of Dragon Shaman.

Ironically, an actual Silver Dragon Bard would still get Fire for his energy type if he took DFI.

Ugh... You're right. That's the worst...

But is it really worth 2 feats to change the damage type? I know a lot of things are resistant/immune to fire. But two feats?

[dextercorvia]

Ugh... You're right. That's the worst...

But is it really worth 2 feats to change the damage type? I know a lot of things are resistant/immune to fire. But two feats?

Possibly. In an average Campaign you will IC or DFI in each combat. So, if fire won't work, just switch back to standard IC. In a High OP T3 campaign, yeah, go for it. Although, I tend to prefer the one level Dragon Shaman dip unless I am optimizing for casting.

[Togo]

But, Harmonize costs a Standard action,...

Which is why I said the harmonise line, and higher level bards. Greater Harmonise is worth it, Harmonise, only for particular builds, such when you have cheap persist effects, and so on.

[Socratov]

Ugh... You're right. That's the worst...

But is it really worth 2 feats to change the damage type? I know a lot of things are resistant/immune to fire. But two feats?

the higher level you are, the more awesome feats open up. Early level in comparison is not so great in feat choices, setting you stuck between Lingering Song and Extra music

by the way, Silverbrow human works for DFI as qualification.


As a hint to what you need to do when you pick your dragon heritage (using the dragon touched feat line): pyroclastic dragon: it does both sonic and fire, so you can pick either for them at the moment of performing.

[Terazul]

From everything I've googled this morning I think it just assigns you cold as a silverbrow. It wouldn't conceptually be worth two feats to me to change that to sonic.

That's why you don't. You instead, after being a Silverbrow Human or other Dragonblood race, seek to undergo the Rite of Draconic Affinity. 24 hours and 5,000 gp later, you can change your ancestral heritage to a different dragon type of your choice, gaining all the benefits and drawbacks thereof.

[Deophaun]

But is it really worth 2 feats to change the damage type? I know a lot of things are resistant/immune to fire. But two feats?

Considering that you can get Sonic/Fire with a Pyroclastic Heritage, yes, it is.

[Shining Wrath]

Bards are really good at making everyone else better. We had a 6 member party where per DM fiat we fought ourselves, and we went after the enemy bard second.

Before the artificer. Before the Scout. Before the Cleric / Crusader / Fist of Raziel.

After the druid. No, we didn't want to find out what she could summon given time.

Last man standing? The Warblade. Not so much that he wasn't dangerous, it was that he had almost 2x HP of anyone else and took a lot of killing. It was a pretty good scene - big guy with greatsword standing among the bodies of his friends, screaming defiance and selling his life dear.

Note: it was an in-game 'game' set up by a crazy artificer, and deaths / injuries were healed, and the opponents were really simulacra not real, because otherwise we'd have had to lynch our DM. Casualties were high.