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    Default Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Is it possible to force someone to resurrect? I can think of a lot of cases where this could be useful, but in particular I'm interested in the idea of eliminating an archdevil this way.
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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Raise them as an intelligent corporeal undead, control them with a rebuke, tell them to be willing, then cast resurrection on them. That will turn them from undead back to a living creature.

    This only works on creatures that can be turned into undead obviously. Outsiders typically dematerialize in some way when you kill them, as they return to their plane.

    Also, how do you imagine bringing a creature back from the dead forcefully would help in eliminating an archdevil?
    Last edited by Crake; 2014-04-17 at 12:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    So you plan to remove an archdevil by undoing the promotions they received and undoing the shivering? All by forcing them to return via a True Resurrection spell (or something similar)?

    For the spell to even work on a willing archdevil you would need a caster level measured in at least 3 digits. Since the spell only reaches so far back and it takes a long time for souls to climb the hellish tiers.

    Then you have to either find a spell that did not require a willing soul, or convince the archdevil to be willing. I know of only one way to do the first. If you have the body AND the archdevil's former body counts as a "dead ally" AND you had a caster level = death duration / 1 minute, THEN you could cast Revenance + Revivify. Although the NI caster level required makes this impractical.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2014-04-17 at 01:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    The Gift of Life SDA is the only effect in the game that can raise an unwilling target, and even then only with the permission of whichever deity has authority over their soul. So unless you can become and/or sway at least one god, you're out of luck.
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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    The Gift of Life SDA is the only effect in the game that can raise an unwilling target
    Raise Dead and the 2 derived spells (Ressurection and True Ressurection) specifically require the soul be willing to return. I did not find any such clause in Revenance or Revivify.

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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Bt RAW, none of the Raising spells can work on unwilling targets. You might be able to convince your DM to allow a Wish or Miracle to do so, especially if you spend an extra Wish or Miracle especially to allow a True Resurrection to work on an unwilling target.

    Not particularly useful for your game, but the PC of a player of mine has an Ancestral Relic (BoED feat) that has a Trap the Soul effect on it. Any time his character dies, her soul is trapped in the relic rather than passing on. This has the effect that the relic is required to raise her at all, and also that she can be forced back to life against her will. Her grand-uncle has a long-term breeding experiment going on and she's the latest edition, and it's very nice to be able to do in-depth vivisections and autopsies on her without the problem of a living soul getting in the way.

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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Raise Dead and the 2 derived spells (Ressurection and True Ressurection) specifically require the soul be willing to return. I did not find any such clause in Revenance or Revivify.
    No specific spell needs to say so, because the "Special Spell Effects" section on PHB pg. 171 already does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    PH page 171 says that when magic is used the revive someone, that person's soul automatically knows the name, alignment and patron deity (if any) of the one attempting to do the reviving and can plainly chose not to be revived.
    So you can't bring someone back against their will, but depending on the circumstances, there might be a way around this. You can try to trick the soul by capturing someone the soul would be ok to be revived by and force that person to do it, or similar. Ofcourse, if the soul doesn't want to be brought back by anybody, then i don't think it's possible.
    Unless ofcourse there are very specific spells/ways designed for this, but the standard raise dead and better spells are not up for it.

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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    So you plan to remove an archdevil by undoing the promotions they received and undoing the shivering? All by forcing them to return via a True Resurrection spell (or something similar)?

    For the spell to even work on a willing archdevil you would need a caster level measured in at least 3 digits. Since the spell only reaches so far back and it takes a long time for souls to climb the hellish tiers.

    Then you have to either find a spell that did not require a willing soul, or convince the archdevil to be willing. I know of only one way to do the first. If you have the body AND the archdevil's former body counts as a "dead ally" AND you had a caster level = death duration / 1 minute, THEN you could cast Revenance + Revivify. Although the NI caster level required makes this impractical.
    NI caster level isn't out of the question, though. Assume 10,000 years. So 5,256,000,000 CL. Off the top of my head, grow ~50 Petri dishes of bacteria. Cast consumptive field. Douse one of the Petri dishes with alcohol. Repeat until none are left and your CL is on the order of 1010.
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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Consumptive Field caps at +1/2 Maximum. There are easier ways to boost Caster Level. Anyway to get Cha to CL?

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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Consumptive Field caps at +1/2 Maximum. There are easier ways to boost Caster Level. Anyway to get Cha to CL?
    That's why you have to repeat the process 50 times. By my reading it's capped by your CL when you cast it, not your unmodified CL.

    Anyway, I don't think it's work because I have a hard time imagining a DM allowing you to categorize someone you're trying to strip of their rank and powers as an ally, and the general rule that you can't bring someone back to life against their will probably still applies.

    (This isn't for anything in particular. I'm just curious as to whether it's possible.)
    Last edited by Jeff the Green; 2014-04-17 at 05:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Raise Dead and the 2 derived spells (Ressurection and True Ressurection) specifically require the soul be willing to return. I did not find any such clause in Revenance or Revivify.
    Both Revenance and Revivify specify "This spell works like raise dead", and neither includes an exception to the rule requiring the soul to be willing.
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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Ah, I see how you're stacking the Spell Effects. Fair play, nicely done.

    If its an identical strength, then the most powerful one takes precendence, but each casting keys off the other for the higher max limit. Clever!

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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    No specific spell needs to say so, because the "Special Spell Effects" section on PHB pg. 171 already does.
    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Both Revenance and Revivify specify "This spell works like raise dead", and neither includes an exception to the rule requiring the soul to be willing.
    Thank you for the corrections.
    It looks like it is impossible to bring someone back against their will unless you are a god. (Prohibited both by specific and general rules)

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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    How would you get someone to be willing? How much information does the soul have access to to decide whether they want to be called back?

    For example, Johnty, a cleric of Heironeous is killed and his body has been found by a Christy, a level 15 LE Cleric of Hextor wants to use Raise Dead on Johnty to allow the two of them together to fulfil a prophecy that would enable them to defeat the even greater evil from beyond the planes from destroying the worldtm.

    I suppose something like Plane Shift to the plane, then Lesser Planar Binding for a Petitioner would get him to talk to to you, any other ways that aren't so likely to annoy the soul of the dead person you're trying to resurrect (although you could diplomance it to become friendly (Mind Affecting won't work, so no Fanatical, sorry!). Planar Commitment would prevent Lesser Planar Binding/Gate not work.

    Anything else?

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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Raise them as an intelligent corporeal undead, control them with a rebuke, tell them to be willing, then cast resurrection on them. That will turn them from undead back to a living creature.

    This only works on creatures that can be turned into undead obviously. Outsiders typically dematerialize in some way when you kill them, as they return to their plane.

    Also, how do you imagine bringing a creature back from the dead forcefully would help in eliminating an archdevil?
    Alternatively, raise them as a skeleton or zombie with Animate Dead and use Awaken Undead on them. Of course, this limits you to stuff like horses and gnomes.
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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    In 1st edition a person could not choose to not be raised, if the spell was cast and the spellcaster was powerful enough to do it then there was no oh sorry I don't want to come back clause, your soul got ripped from whatever paradise or eternity you were in and stuck back in your body, to bad so sad. Thus, even death was not a safe haven from powerful spell casters who wanted you to suffer.

    I assume that in your game the particular arch-devil was once a person, who died, went to hell, and slowly over time rose to his position on hell's ladder. In such a case it seems infeasible for a mortal to have the kind of power to be able to reverse something that has probably taken millennia to achieve. A god could probably do it, but a mortal, I don't think so. (granted in 3.5 people talk about killing gods all the time, it shouldn't really be possible IMO because what can a 20th level player do that a 40th level god cannot do better.)

    Not to mention that the process of becoming a devil in the first place is essentially twisting their soul into something else anyway, they aren't really the same person anymore, you would most likely have to revert the arch-devil into his previous "human soul-form" before simply raising him anyway.
    Last edited by Yogibear41; 2014-04-17 at 11:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Raise them as an intelligent corporeal undead, control them with a rebuke, tell them to be willing, then cast resurrection on them. That will turn them from undead back to a living creature.
    This won't work; you have to destroy the undead first, in which case your control won't apply to them anymore and they can once again choose not to come back.
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    d20 Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    my preffered method is to trick them into coming back to life. use someone they trusted in the past life, in order to make them think that they are coming back where they want to be. if they are simply unwilling in general, and you need all of their class features, then you may need a diety. otherwise, you are out of luck.

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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Raise them as an intelligent corporeal undead, control them with a rebuke, tell them to be willing, then cast resurrection on them. That will turn them from undead back to a living creature.

    This only works on creatures that can be turned into undead obviously. Outsiders typically dematerialize in some way when you kill them, as they return to their plane.

    Also, how do you imagine bringing a creature back from the dead forcefully would help in eliminating an archdevil?
    I don't think Undead are valid targets for any of the Resurrection spells, unless you kill the undead first and cast the spells on the inanimate remains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    NI caster level isn't out of the question, though. Assume 10,000 years. So 5,256,000,000 CL. Off the top of my head, grow ~50 Petri dishes of bacteria. Cast consumptive field. Douse one of the Petri dishes with alcohol. Repeat until none are left and your CL is on the order of 1010.

    How does your character grow Petri dishes, let alone know of the existence of bacteria and that alcohol will kill them?
    Last edited by Yogibear41; 2014-04-17 at 11:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogibear41 View Post
    How does your character grow Petri dishes, let alone know of the existence of bacteria and that alcohol will kill them?
    Petri dishes are easy (actually, a liquid medium like broth might be easier) and a Knowledge (nature) check should do for bacteria. Obviously setting dependent, but even if bacteria don't exist, brewers yeast almost certainly does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    Actually, a Clone spell could do it. Grow a Clone of the person you want to bring back using Eschew Materials to ignore the non-expensive material component (ie, the flesh). Recreate the mortal body of the person you want to ruin when they're, say, an infant, so they're powerless to stop you from doing whatever you want to them.

    Alternately, Wish for a suitable, fresh chunk of flesh from the body of the creature you want to Clone (at the timeframe you want to Clone them from), then cast Clone normally.
    Doesn't work. clone specifically requires that the soul be free and willing to return.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Doesn't work. clone specifically requires that the soul be free and willing to return.
    Yeah, I just noticed.
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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Raise them as an intelligent corporeal undead, control them with a rebuke, tell them to be willing, then cast resurrection on them. That will turn them from undead back to a living creature.

    This only works on creatures that can be turned into undead obviously. Outsiders typically dematerialize in some way when you kill them, as they return to their plane.

    Also, how do you imagine bringing a creature back from the dead forcefully would help in eliminating an archdevil?
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    This won't work; you have to destroy the undead first, in which case your control won't apply to them anymore and they can once again choose not to come back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    I don't think Undead are valid targets for any of the Resurrection spells, unless you kill the undead first and cast the spells on the inanimate remains.
    Not only that, raising undead doesn't have anything to do with souls, except requiring them to vacate their current vessel.
    EDIT: That is to say, even if this did work, the soul (being already in the afterlife) is no more or less willing to come back. What you have done is made some Negative energy willing to come back to life.
    Last edited by The Random NPC; 2014-04-17 at 12:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Ok. What about casting Resurrection from a scroll, and using UMD to emulate someone the person would be willing to be raised by? A DC 30 bardic knowledge check give you information about their childhood nicknames, a 35 could probably get you the answer to this question.

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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    1. Get the soul via Soul Shackles
    2. Persuade it to come back to life. (Glibness may help)
    3. Resurrection!

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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Archdevils and demon lords are notorious for backstabbing amongst themselves and wanting to see all of the others (on both sides of the alignment divide) humiliated and destroyed, so call in Pazuzu (probably THE most biddable of all the god-tier fiends) and offer to help him in destroying this thing. Since he's offering Wishes, he's the one who will be granting them, so Wish for this archdevil to be resurrected in his original, mortal form (before he gained any real power).

    He should be willing to help. You may suffer a change in alignment by one step, but at least Pazuzu won't corrupt your Wish.
    Last edited by Rubik; 2014-04-17 at 12:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yogibear41 View Post
    How does your character grow Petri dishes, let alone know of the existence of bacteria and that alcohol will kill them?
    bacteria probably arent even classified as alive. isnt rot and decay a product of negative energy, not mircoorganisms, anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by XmonkTad View Post
    Ok. What about casting Resurrection from a scroll, and using UMD to emulate someone the person would be willing to be raised by? A DC 30 bardic knowledge check give you information about their childhood nicknames, a 35 could probably get you the answer to this question.
    Tippy´s method:

    Shapechange into a Zodar.
    Su Wish for a CL 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000 scroll of whatever it is you need.
    Shapechange into a Lilitu
    Use her UMD ability to cast the spell
    Profit

    Remember that you can Wish for magic items with Wish that supercede the 25000gp price, but you have to pay xp. Su Wish ignores xp cost. Cool, no? Though you could say that the Wish xp clause supercedes the general Su xp costless clause.
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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Petri dishes are easy (actually, a liquid medium like broth might be easier) and a Knowledge (nature) check should do for bacteria. Obviously setting dependent, but even if bacteria don't exist, brewers yeast almost certainly does.



    Doesn't work. clone specifically requires that the soul be free and willing to return.
    Consumptive field doesn't allow you to boost your caster level infinitely. It doesn't stack with itself. If your CL is 20, the first time you cap it out your CL will be 30(20/2=+10). Then you cast consumptive field again with a CL 30, allowing you to cap out at 35(30/2 = +15). Then you cast consumptive field at CL 35 and cap out at 37(35/2 +17). The most you can do with consumptive field is double you caster level if you keep recasting it.

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    Default Re: Bringing someone back to life against their will

    ShurickVcH, thanks for that spell, that's good to know of.

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