Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground LVI

[Kuulvheysoon]

Considered it; maybe I misunderstood, but I thought to be Huge you needed to have at least 7pp, and they didn't have that many. Other than that, they didn't seem much better (and in some places, were actually worse) than regular dwarves, which didn't make up for the LA to me. If they get to use Expansion 1/day for free, that makes more sense, but it still doesn't seem OP.

Psi-like abilities are special (arguably better than SLAs) - they automatically augment along with your HD.

Here's a secret for you guys - I actually make build stubs myself for all of the competitons. This time, I had a duergar Crusader 7/Defender 8/Deepstone Sentinel 4, abusing said feat to get Huge 3/day as a swift action 3/day after 15HD.

[Vaz]

PLA's are like SLA's, with the exception that they recieve automatic augmentation up to their ML. So any ECL8 Duergar get a 1/day or 3/day Expansion with up to 6 'free' pp points which automatically apply, which you can choose any of the augmentations from

If you want to stroke ego's my build stub was a Painted Ranger 3/Ardent 2/Stoneblessed 3/Slayer 4/Dwarven Defender 8. Otherworldly feat, Expansion and Metamorphosis to become a Dwarven Ancestor, using Expansion augmented to become Gargantuan.

[Kazudo]

For a build that's pretty much DESIGNED to be the bottleneck, the way that I was thinking of going was

Dwarf Spirit Bear Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Wildshape Ranger 5

Cram in a few levels of War Hulk (being large by nature of a mandatory Enlarge Person Permanence at 3rd or 4th level, whenever the WBL would permit) and then basically making it a Tripping/Grappling/Bullrushing beast with a pretty big area attack which specialized in throwing enemies out of the vicinity with the second iterative, getting a defensive bonus from not moving.

Eh.

[Seerow]

Psi-like abilities are special (arguably better than SLAs) - they automatically augment along with your HD.

Here's a secret for you guys - I actually make build stubs myself for all of the competitons. This time, I had a duergar Crusader 7/Defender 8/Deepstone Sentinel 4, abusing said feat to get Huge 3/day as a swift action 3/day after 15HD.

Honestly, my minimum for something like that is 4/day. Unless that feat can be taken multiple times, I wouldn't want to run with it. I don't know how judges generally feel about that though.

[Rama]

There will be no refusal to judge from me. Since someone took the time to make it, I can take the time to judge it.

Likewise.

This is an interesting set of entries.

[AvatarVecna]

I was considering a Monk/Psychic Warrior combo, but couldn't make it work the way I wanted it to. Also, I think someone actually did that one.
Also thought of using Hexblade or Warmage as the base class, but didn't have time.
Final consideration was a Wizard who focused on summoning, but didn't want to risk taking too few levels of DD and didn't want to sacrifice caster level.

[AvatarVecna]

Psi-like abilities are special (arguably better than SLAs) - they automatically augment along with your HD.

Here's a secret for you guys - I actually make build stubs myself for all of the competitons. This time, I had a duergar Crusader 7/Defender 8/Deepstone Sentinel 4, abusing said feat to get Huge 3/day as a swift action 3/day after 15HD.

Huh, I wasn't aware of that. I guess I don't know the rules quite as well as I thought. Of course, all the much more awesome/complex builds I'm competing against also proved that, so I guess I'll do better next time.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Honestly, my minimum for something like that is 4/day. Unless that feat can be taken multiple times, I wouldn't want to run with it. I don't know how judges generally feel about that though.

In fact it can - each time you take the feat, you get +2 uses a day added.

Huh, I wasn't aware of that. I guess I don't know the rules quite as well as I thought. Of course, all the much more awesome/complex builds I'm competing against also proved that, so I guess I'll do better next time.

It's a rule that's hidden away pretty well, IIRC, so don't worry about not catching that.

[Seerow]

In fact it can - each time you take the feat, you get +2 uses a day added.

That is interesting. I may not have grabbed it for this competition, but that is good to know going forward.

[The Dark Fiddler]

FtQ = Failure to Qualify.

Ah, I see. As far as refusing to judge something, that's definitely not going to happen here. Use of Secret Ingredient is going to tank (probably automatic zero, honestly), but the rest of the build'll get judged just fine.

Anyway, I said I'd post my criteria for judging today, and here they are. They might change a bit by the time I actually get around to judging, and I'm not sure whether I'm starting each category at 3 or 4 before penalties/bonuses, but at least it's something, right?

Spoiler

Show

Use of Secret Ingredient

• -.5 points for each level of the SI that isn't taken
• Penalties for making class features useless or otherwise ignoring them.
• Failure to qualify is an automatic 0 in this category (alignment might be the only exception, with a large penalty instead)
• Bonuses (+.25) for synergy with class features, especially Defensive Stance (+.5)

Elegance - this can be more or less summed up as "making the build easy to understand or work with is good, making it overly complex is bad"

• -.25 per dip (a dip is one or two levels in a class that has at least five, so paragon classes don't count)
• -.5 for excessive hopping between classes (basically, if it takes me more than a few seconds to understand what order you took levels in)
• +.25 for only taking the SI and a pre-req
• +.25 for not splitting levels at all
• Penalties for questionable rule readings, relying on items, chaining variants, and other such things
• Bonuses for suggested adaptations of the build, anything to help actually play the character

Originality

• +.25 for each class that nobody else has taken
• -.25 for each class taken by at least three contestant, plus an extra -.25 for each additional three people who have taken it
• Modifiers for backstory go here, but if there's no backstory included it's a push (+/-0)
• +.5 for any big surprises, like a wizard DD or something like that
• -.75 for taking fighter; this was the big "I see this coming" class
  I was considering a penalty for Stoneblessed, since that was the other "I see this coming" class, but since it's 50% of the ways to qualify for the class, I decided to ignore it and also ignore race; the bonus from an original race and penalty from Stoneblessed essentially cancel out.

Power
I'll be honest, power is the toughest for me to enumerate beforehand. This one I'll be judging as I go, so feel free to call me out on anything inconsistent.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'm actually more surprised that I didn't see a single duergar - automatically augmented expansion would give Huge size at late levels, and there's a feat to make it 3/day instead of 1.

Here's a secret for you guys - I actually make build stubs myself for all of the competitons. This time, I had a duergar Crusader 7/Defender 8/Deepstone Sentinel 4, abusing said feat to get Huge 3/day as a swift action 3/day after 15HD.

Great minds think alike, right?

No, I didn't compete (there's a project on my mind that's taking far more time), but I was planning for a Duergar with Defender and Deepstone Sentinel, except I would have gone for all 10 levels and maybe even all 5 levels of Deepstone Sentinel, and arguably for the same reasons: Enlarge Person/Extension to get large enough, a reach weapon, and making all areas difficult terrain. Then make it a Lockdown Build and milk it for all that's worth.

I was thinking about lesser Duergar, though, since Invisibility isn't that great and while Expansion is better, one extra class level is never bad. Though: finding a way to get Insightful Strike and exploiting Concentration, then getting Knock-Down for unholy Psionic Focus + Knock-Down + Insightful Strike + following strike attacks would have been pretty hilarious.

Guess that was the reason why I didn't went through with it: it was too obvious to work. Then again, it was so obvious, only one build got really close.

[Seerow]

No, I didn't compete (there's a project on my mind that's taking far more time), but I was planning for a Duergar with Defender and Deepstone Sentinel, except I would have gone for all 10 levels and maybe even all 5 levels of Deepstone Sentinel, and arguably for the same reasons: Enlarge Person/Extension to get large enough, a reach weapon, and making all areas difficult terrain. Then make it a Lockdown Build and milk it for all that's worth.

I considered going that route, but those damn BAB requirements. Deepstone Sentinal requires BAB+10, Defender requires +7. It's literally impossible to take both and get them both maxed out.

Also the Sentinel's difficult terrain only applies to adjacent squares, not within reach. If you want Difficult Terrain within reach, you have to go Knight 3, which is really rough to swallow on top of Dwarven Defender. The main reason I wanted the Sentinel was the pillar summoning ability, which lets you create your own bottlenecks to defend given some time to set up, which I thought was really cool/fitting.

[paperarmor]

I'm suddenly feeling a lot better about the build I came up with Duergar Knight 6/ Crusader 5/ Dwarven Defender 8. Gets the huge size, difficult terrian for 30ft with a reach weapon DR and the delayed damage pool of the crusader plus some healing strikes no tumble and thicket of blades with the standstill feat (not sure if the thicket AoO's can be given up for standstill but yeah sounded good). Im not thorughly jazzed for the next one great stuff here.

[Tim Proctor]

[*]-.25 for each class taken by at least three contestant, plus an extra -.25 for each additional three people who have taken it[*]-.5 for taking fighter beyond a dip

Question, since there were 11 Fighters, and each person would have 10 others that were that means a -.75 for Fighter and for The Rock (only one to take Fighter pass level 2) a -1.25?

[The Dark Fiddler]

Question, since there were 11 Fighters, and each person would have 10 others that were that means a -.75 for Fighter and for The Rock (only one to take Fighter pass level 2) a -1.25?

This was all thought up before looking at the builds that were submitted. Seeing how things turned out, I think everybody who took fighter will just get either a -.5 or -.75, dip or not.

[Banaticus]

Don't these optimization challenges usually focus on more esoteric or sideline choices? I think I've seen a number of builds for dwarven defender, most of them focusing on standing in a doorway somehow.

[Tim Proctor]

Don't these optimization challenges usually focus on more esoteric or sideline choices? I think I've seen a number of builds for dwarven defender, most of them focusing on standing in a doorway somehow.

I'm not 100% sure about your question, but if I am understanding it correctly yes. I think you'll find any DD without some decent battlefield control mechanism to be hit on the power side of things. I'm not judging but I think it would make a DD nearly useless if they have a super high AC and don't do anything and are completely ignored.

[Vaz]

It focuses on optimizing around an enforced Special Ingredient. The aim is to get as much power out of the class, while still making it available for use in the majority of campaigns. Bonus points for originality means it keeps well away from overused suggestions, both for entry, and for the odd time in which the SI is suggested for whatever niche role it may fulfill. Judges like to decide on their own for power - I like to see how well it keeps up against the rest of a party. If you can cope well enough at your own roll (in this instance, BSF), you get a 3, that's average. If you can't fulfil that role, then you recieve penalties. Getting higher scores means being able to adequately participate in other roles in the game (such as Scouting/Sneaking, Social or Utility).

[Kazudo]

And actually, if the SI is entirely written to be a bottleneck character, one approach is to make it the bottleneck-iest character out there.

[WhamBamSam]

The two builds I couldn't make work were a midgard dwarf dwarven defender 8 who used the climb aboard portion of the giantbane tactical feat to stand his ground on his enemies, and I tried desperately to get a master of the unseen hand build to work - a living blade barrier using telekinetic wield. Also, I am utterly shocked that my build turned out as unique as it did.

I bet I know which one is yours.

IF you're talking about Midnight Dodge/Azure Toughness, those feats explicitly say that they count as Dodge/Toughness for the purposes of fufilling feat requirements.


I'm actually more surprised that I didn't see a single duergar - automatically augmented expansion would give Huge size at late levels, and there's a feat to make it 3/day instead of 1.

Both of my secondary ideas were Psionic Druegar.

One was a Totemist 3/Warblade 5/Warmind 6/Dwarven Defender 5 which I scrapped for not amounting to anything more than a poor Ultimo Tarrasco knockoff (especially when I made an Ultimo Tarrasco knockoff just a few rounds ago in Zinc Saucier). The second one was a Totemist 3/Wildshape Ranger 6/Dwarven Defender 10. The basic idea was to use Sword of the Arcane Order to get Bloodwind, which I would use with Improved Grab to grapple at range and pull them in to where my Defensive Stance was sitting. Originally I was trying to work Aberration Wild Shape to transform into a Gibbering Mouther and use Zen Archery to make up for the form's low Str to grab at great distances, then Swallow Whole the following round, but it was coming online too late for my liking. Then I tried to make it work with a regular old Crocodile as my go to form (which had plenty of Str and didn't need Zen Archery), but it just didn't have the same pizzazz.

Also, there's some ambiguity as to whether Improved Grab works with Blood Wind, since the text for the Improved Grab special ability specifies melee weapons, and Blood Wind says you use your natural weapons as if they were thrown weapons. On reflection, they probably are still melee weapons, so it probably still works, but at the time it seemed sketchy. Scorpion's Grasp definitely works, but doing it with a Monk just wasn't as fun or effective.

On reflection, I kinda wish I had submitted the Gibbering Mouther build. It probably would have been a contender. Ah well, I have some hope in the build that I did submit.

Considered it; maybe I misunderstood, but I thought to be Huge you needed to have at least 7pp, and they didn't have that many. Other than that, they didn't seem much better (and in some places, were actually worse) than regular dwarves, which didn't make up for the LA to me. If they get to use Expansion 1/day for free, that makes more sense, but it still doesn't seem OP.

Psi-like abilities don't cost PP and automatically act as if they were augmented to maximum ML, and the Psionic Druegar's Expansion has a ML equal to your character level (minimum 3). So by mid to high levels, Psionic Druegar can become huge for minutes at a time as a swift action.

[Tim Proctor]

So by mid to high levels, Psionic Druegar can become huge for minutes at a time as a swift action.

Yeah, I briefly thought about making a Symbiotic Druegar-Goliath Psychic Warrior 5/ DD 10/ War Hulk 2 but thought that is wouldn't be the best, but now I think that it might have been cool. But I figured that there were questionable rules about whether subtypes carry over for racial qualification for the SI (which I believe works), and I figured that being Gargantuan (even for a few minutes) would be well awesome. I just thought it would be too complex and too odd but a weapon with sizing on it so that you could wield a Colossal weapon would have been cool.

[arkangel111]

I actually toyed with the idea of getting a Crusader 4/ Warblade 3/ DD 10/ Defender of Sealtiel 3.... worked up... I figured the bonus points for 13 levels of the SI might be worth doing, but I ran out of time with my first build so had to scrap this one. On a side note my wife says I'd be acing my classes if i spent half as much effort on homework as I do on "a stupid competition" but I told her homework wasn't fun.

On an unrelated note, I need a more comfy couch.

[Vaz]

I actually toyed with the idea of getting a Crusader 4/ Warblade 3/ DD 10/ Defender of Sealtiel 3.... worked up... I figured the bonus points for 13 levels of the SI might be worth doing, but I ran out of time with my first build so had to scrap this one. On a side note my wife says I'd be acing my classes if i spent half as much effort on homework as I do on "a stupid competition" but I told her homework wasn't fun.

On an unrelated note, I need a more comfy couch.

You could use your wife instead? Then you'd muffle her nagging, and have a new comfy seat. With in built stress relief.

[Amphetryon]

Question, since there were 11 Fighters, and each person would have 10 others that were that means a -.75 for Fighter and for The Rock (only one to take Fighter pass level 2) a -1.25?

Question the 2nd: Given the Racial prerequisite for this PrC, does The Dark Fiddler's stated rubric mean the folks who attempted to work around it via Stoneblessed (probably trying to get a more 'original' Race than Dwarf or Dragonborn) are destined for a penalty?

[lunar2]

unfortunately, i just saw the thread yesterday, or i would have definitely entered this one. as soon as dwarven defender was mentioned, i was thinking about a psionic duergar with inhuman reach and/or willing deformity (tall) wielding a spiked chain.

i probably would have gone straight knight 9/DD 10. would have done good on elegance, decent on originality (only two entries used knight), and hopefully good on UoSI, since i could use my defensive stance and laugh at the movement restriction with my 50 ft. reach ((5 ft. + 5ft (inhuman reach) + 5 ft. (deformity tall) + 10 feet (huge size)) x 2 (spiked chain)). also, the first knight bonus feat can be used to pick up endurance, cutting down a bit on the feat tax. that leaves necessary feats as: dodge, toughness, willing deformity, deformity tall, abberant blood, inhuman reach, and duergar expansion. as an adaptation, pick up a flaw for another duergar expansion, to cover all four encounters in a normal day.

not the most powerful build, but it's simple and it does its job, which is keep the enemies off the other party members. and with huge size and a two handed weapon, you're dealing decent damage as well.

also, is there EPH errata anywhere? expansion states it lasts 1 min./level, but then says you can augment it to 1 min./level from 1 round/level with 2 PP.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Question the 2nd: Given the Racial prerequisite for this PrC, does The Dark Fiddler's stated rubric mean the folks who attempted to work around it via Stoneblessed (probably trying to get a more 'original' Race than Dwarf or Dragonborn) are destined for a penalty?

Penalties for Stoneblessed and any bonuses that may or may not exist for an original race are going to be assumed to cancel. In other words, Stoneblessed is going to be an exception to penalties for originality at the cost of losing bonuses for an original race, unless you somehow managed to qualify without both dwarf AND Stoneblessed.

Keep bringing the questions, everybody. My metrics made sense to me when I made them, but there's bound to be more kinks and it's better to work them out now, before actually judging with them.

[Vaz]

My 2 cents' This is why I don't like posting rubrics. It leads to nitpicking, and more time spend answering questions than actually judging, as people try to gain as many points as possible out of the rubric, which is more like gamesmanship, rather than sportsmanship. A judge is free to judge the entries how they like, and, as long as it's fair and equal across the board, then they should be able to do so without it being "questioned".

In this instance, all the entries involving Dwarves could get penalised because they're all dwarves and copied by everyone else, and only those who don't use Dwarves to enter don't get penalized for that. However, because everyone and their dog who spends any time around CharOp boards becomes aware of the Stoneblessed at some point to let them "cheat themselves" into Dwarf only PrC's, means that they get a penalty as well. Meaning that only someone who just ignored the classes Dwarf PreReq would be able to get originality points - but that then leads to Elegance penalties for failure to qualify/being reliant on DM fiating the racial requirement away.

Lets take it further? Anything that I expect loses points for originality. Anything that's unexpected loses points for "blatant originality grabs". This is strawmanning here, and I don't expect anyone to seriously reply to that one, but seriously, less questioning the rubric even BEFORE the judge has actually managed to judge, good grief. If the judge feels that they're giving away too many points for particular areas, then the judge is free to alter his rubric at any time to account for that.

The Dark Fiddler, as a fellow judge, I'll say to this - judge the entries how you want to judge them. This is YOUR part of a voluntary competition with a valueless reward. The entrants have had their part to play, now you have yours.

[Ikeren]

My stubs and aggregates; posting because I did a little more lengthy summary of class/race/prestige than others.
Dragonborn (Heart) Dwarf Dwarf Paragon 3/Fighter 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Deepwarden 2/Dwarven Defender 10
Dwarf Monk2/Psychic Warrior10/Dwarven Defender 8
Half-Gold Dragon Desert Dwarf Paladin 5/ Fighter 2/ Dwarven Defender 10
Earth Dwarf Knight 10/Dwarven Defender 10
Shadow-Walker Desert Dwarf, Knight 6/ Dwarf Defender 10/ Dwarf Paragon 3
Dwarf Ranger 7/ Dwarven Defender 10 / Ranger 3
Dwarf Ranger 4/Artificer 1/Trapsmith 5/Dwarven Defender 10
Fireblood Dwarf Barbarian 2 / Fighter 6 / Crusader 2 / Dwarven Defender 10
Dwarf Ranger 3/Warblade 2/Deepwarden 2/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Dwarven Defender 9
Incarnate Maug Fighter 2 / Stoneblessed 3 / Crusader 2 / Dwarven Defender 10
Dwarf Ardent 4/Fighter 6/Dwarven Defender 10
Dragonborn (Heart) Aleithian Dwarf Factotum 3/Fighter 2/Soulborn 4/Dwarven Defender 10/Factotum +1
Dwarf Fighter 2/Monk 4/Fist of the Forest 3/Dwarven Defender 10/Horizon Walker 1
Jungle Dwarf Monk 2/Fighter 2/Totemist 3/Fist of the Forest 3/Dwarven Defender 10
Dwarf Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 2/Dwarven Defender 6/Abjurant Champ 1/Master of the Unseen Hand 4
Gully Dwarf Dragonborn (Heart aspect) Incarnate 4/Fighter 2/Ironsoul Forgemaster 4/Dwarven Defender 10
Jungle Dwarf Wild Shape Ranger 6/Master of Many Forms 4/ Dwarven Defender 10
Aleithian Psion (Egoist) 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 2 / (Psionic) Abjurant Champion 5 / Dwarven Defender 9
Earth Dwarf Fighter 1/ Warblade 1/ Ranger 2/ Darkrunner 4/ Deepstone Sentinel 4/ Dwarven Defender 8
Desert Half-Orc Paragon 2/Warblade 5/Stoneblessed 3/Dwarven Defender 10
Draconic Dvati, Monk of the undying way 2/ Psychic Warrior 2/ Stoneblessed (Dwarf) 3/ Crusader 2/ Warblade 1/ Dwarven Defender 10

21 builds
Races and Templates
Dwarf: 8 --- 30.7%
Dragonborn (Heart): 3
Desert Dwarf: 2
Earth Dwarf: 2
Aleithian Dwarf: 2
Jungle Dwarf: 2
Half-Gold Dragon: 1
Shadow Walker: 1
Fireblood Dwarf: 1
Maug: 1
Gully Dwarf:1
Desert half Orc: 1
Draconic Dvati: 1
Total: 26. Average: 1.23 per build (some templates)

Base Classes:
Fighter: 11 --- 25%
Ranger: 5 --- 11.3%
Monk: 4
Warblade: 4
Crusader: 3
Psychic Warrior: 2
Knight: 2
Dwarf Paragon: 2
Paladin: 1
Artificer: 1
Barbarian: 1
Ardent: 1
Factotum: 1
Soulbourn: 1
Totemist: 1
Sorcerer: 1
Incarnate: 1
Psion: 1
Swashbuckler: 1
Half Orc Paragon: 1
Total: 44. Average: 2.09.

Prestige Classes:
Dwarven Defender: 21 – 100%, obviously.
Fist of the Forest: 3 – 7.8%
Stoneblessed: 3 – 7.8%
Abjurant champion: 2
Deepwarden: 2
Trapsmith: 1
Bloodstorm Blade: 1
Horizon Walker: 1
Master of the unseen hand: 1
Irounsoul Forgemaster: 1
Master of Many Forms: 1
Darkrunner: 1
Deepstone Sentinel: 1
Total: 39. Average: 1.857

I was very, very, very surprised by the variety, to be honest, especially in so many builds.

[Tim Proctor]

My 2 cents' This is why I don't like posting rubrics. It leads to nitpicking, and more time spend answering questions than actually judging, as people try to gain as many points as possible out of the rubric, which is more like gamesmanship, rather than sportsmanship. A judge is free to judge the entries how they like, and, as long as it's fair and equal across the board, then they should be able to do so without it being "questioned".

I don't know if I agree with this, I asked questions because as someone that has judged and plans on judging again in the future I am curious to the methodology of the scores.

Meaning that only someone who just ignored the classes Dwarf PreReq would be able to get originality points.

Changeling Racial Emulation would have worked also, and I ditched that build.

The Dark Fiddler, as a fellow judge, I'll say to this - judge the entries how you want to judge them. This is YOUR part of a voluntary competition with a valueless reward. The entrants have had their part to play, now you have yours.

I agree, my questions weren't to nitpick or anything similar to that, but to understand the methodology. I find myself scoring each build and I'm constantly evaluating my scoring metric so that I can deliver the best results.

[arkangel111]

Just curious and not trying to start an argument. But is it being said that those that took stoneblessed are going to be docked points? The racial prerequisite is met. Yes they may not be a Dwarf, but the contest did not say you HAD to be a Dwarf, just meet the prerequisite of the SI. The best DD may not be a Dwarf after all. i mean certainly the class was not written for anything other than a stock dwarf from PHB yet others are different types of Dwarves not presented in the PHB. I mainly ask for future competitions and for some clarification.