Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground LVI

[The Dark Fiddler]

The Dark Fiddler, as a fellow judge, I'll say to this - judge the entries how you want to judge them. This is YOUR part of a voluntary competition with a valueless reward. The entrants have had their part to play, now you have yours.

Thanks for your input, but I'm just trying to work out any inconsistencies in the rubric rather than take criticism on it. I won't budge on what I consider to be worth or not worth points, I just want to make sure I work out any weird things that I might rule one way one time and a different way some other time, since I doubt I'll be able to get them all judged in a single sitting and further doubt my ability to remember exactly what I thought two days earlier.

Just curious and not trying to start an argument. But is it being said that those that took stoneblessed are going to be docked points? The racial prerequisite is met. Yes they may not be a Dwarf, but the contest did not say you HAD to be a Dwarf, just meet the prerequisite of the SI. The best DD may not be a Dwarf after all. i mean certainly the class was not written for anything other than a stock dwarf from PHB yet others are different types of Dwarves not presented in the PHB. I mainly ask for future competitions and for some clarification.

I was considering taking points off, as I'm sure other judges have considered, for originality. I saw Stoneblessed coming a mile away, which as far as I'm concerned is bad for originality. Anybody who docks because of not meeting the prerequisite is out-and-out wrong, as long as I understand the class's mechanics correctly.

[Tim Proctor]

Just curious and not trying to start an argument. But is it being said that those that took stoneblessed are going to be docked points? The racial prerequisite is met. Yes they may not be a Dwarf, but the contest did not say you HAD to be a Dwarf, just meet the prerequisite of the SI. The best DD may not be a Dwarf after all. i mean certainly the class was not written for anything other than a stock dwarf from PHB yet others are different types of Dwarves not presented in the PHB. I mainly ask for future competitions and for some clarification.

If things can be docked, then I would assume them to be. With 8-regular dwarves I'd expect a small hit for originality, with 3-stone blessed I'd expect a smaller hit for originality, with 2-desert dwarves I'd expect an even smaller hit. Had I been judging it would be -.38 for Dwarf, -.14 for stone blessed, and -.1 for desert dwarf. But some judges run them by what they would expect to see and they may expect stone blessed or something else, it'll be interesting and I'd expect some variances between judges.

[Deadline]

I bet I know which one is yours.

It's possible. PM me your guess.

Originally I was trying to work Aberration Wild Shape to transform into a Gibbering Mouther

That certainly would have been something. With my Midgard Dwarf build, I would have been hanging way too much on the uniqueness of being the only legal outsider to enter the SI (Midgard Dwarf specifically states it counts as a dwarf for qualifying purposes. I tried to use Stoneblessed to come up with something, but Stoneblessed has a prerequisite of Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, or Giant, and I couldn't really see anything exciting in those options.

[Muggins]

Edit: I shall send a query.

[Gemini476]

Huh. There are some Deepstone Sentinels in there, but I was honestly expecting more of them. And Undermountain Tactics. I don't think anyone used Undermountain Tactics in this contest, which is kind of surprising.

My build stub was Knight 4/Crusader 3/Dwarven Defender 3/Deepstone Sentinel 4/Dwarven Defender +6, using various DS abilities to activate the different Undermountain Tactics options. Like blocking LOS when adjacent to two walls - something that Dragon's Tooth could create. Oh, and generally being annoying and forcing people to attack you whilst having a "IF I CAN'T MOVE, THEN NO-ONE CAN" philosophy to combat.

But then I realized that seven feats just wasn't enough. That's a pretty annoying feeling.

Another build stub that was very much a joke was trying to squeeze in The Gentle Way Mastery into a Dwarven Defender build. That was even worse, feat-wise. Although it did lead me to figure out that if you had fourteen feats to spare you could go The Gentle Way Mastery+Ring the Golden Bell+Improved Grapple and hookshot enemies towards your square. That's pretty neato, if feat-intensive.

[arkangel111]

I was considering taking points off, as I'm sure other judges have considered, for originality. I saw Stoneblessed coming a mile away, which as far as I'm concerned is bad for originality. Anybody who docks because of not meeting the prerequisite is out-and-out wrong, as long as I understand the class's mechanics correctly.

My response to this is simply... If everyone sees it coming form a mile away but only one person does it, isn't that original?

[The Viscount]

My response to this is simply... If everyone sees it coming form a mile away but only one person does it, isn't that original?

I wouldn't necessarily say it's original, but I would say they deserve originality points for having the bravery to be the only one to do it. That being said, every judge has his or her own criteria, and many will not give points to something they saw coming.

[Kazudo]

Another build stub that was very much a joke was trying to squeeze in The Gentle Way Mastery into a Dwarven Defender build. That was even worse, feat-wise. Although it did lead me to figure out that if you had fourteen feats to spare you could go The Gentle Way Mastery+Ring the Golden Bell+Improved Grapple and hookshot enemies towards your square. That's pretty neato, if feat-intensive.

I actually considered making an apologetic Dwarf who had Vow of Peace and Nonviolence strapped to him so that, in addition to being very difficult to hit and very sturdy, you just flat out didn't WANT to hit him. Wedge him in a hallway and the enemy would just kinda...leave. Add that to a diplomancy build and BAM.

EDIT:
Yeah, being the only one to overcome their inner Vizzini shouldn't carry with it a penalty. When I judged, I judged Originality based on the other entrants, not on what I felt was going/not going to happen. HOWEVER, the judges are charged with putting forth a criteria that THEY feel is fair, and competitors can't really whinge on too much about fairness and equality.

[Tim Proctor]

I actually considered making an apologetic Dwarf who had Vow of Peace and Nonviolence strapped to him so that, in addition to being very difficult to hit and very sturdy, you just flat out didn't WANT to hit him. Wedge him in a hallway and the enemy would just kinda...leave. Add that to a diplomancy build and BAM.

The best defense is a good diplomacy! The shield is mightier than the sword!, etc.

[Kazudo]

I considered calling him the "Dwarven Defensive"

Since every time you'd come near you'd get into an argument and he'd start getting all defensive...get it?

[sakuuya]

That certainly would have been something. With my Midgard Dwarf build, I would have been hanging way too much on the uniqueness of being the only legal outsider to enter the SI (Midgard Dwarf specifically states it counts as a dwarf for qualifying purposes. I tried to use Stoneblessed to come up with something, but Stoneblessed has a prerequisite of Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, or Giant, and I couldn't really see anything exciting in those options.

I had the same problem with Stoneblessed. Early on, I had a goofy idea for a Mimic that spent its life posing as a door in a dwarven outpost (because standing in doorways is already what Dwarven Defenders are best at), but aberrations can't take Stoneblessed.

[Kazudo]

Another idea I had was a Trap Haunt built into an Adamantine door. But I couldn't remember what book Trap Haunt is from or whether it would even be legal, so I didn't.

Vizzini!!!!!!

[Vaz]

Completely forgot Stoneblessed Typing requisite. Otherworldly Elf would have been right out, massive elegance penalties right there if I entered. As in, Minimum score

[Amphetryon]

Penalties for Stoneblessed and any bonuses that may or may not exist for an original race are going to be assumed to cancel. In other words, Stoneblessed is going to be an exception to penalties for originality at the cost of losing bonuses for an original race, unless you somehow managed to qualify without both dwarf AND Stoneblessed.

Keep bringing the questions, everybody. My metrics made sense to me when I made them, but there's bound to be more kinks and it's better to work them out now, before actually judging with them.

Could you clarify how "losing a bonus" differs in the numbers from "getting a penalty"?

[Sian]

Actually had a 3rd build stub but i like my two entries to much to do much with it

Fighter 2 / Ranger 3 / Master Thrower 5 / Dwarven Defender 10

With Brutal Throw, Ranged Weapon Specialization and Tormtor School as keystone feats

[The Dark Fiddler]

Could you clarify how "losing a bonus" differs in the numbers from "getting a penalty"?

There isn't, I suppose. When you said "destined for a penalty", I thought you meant a net penalty when in reality going Stoneblessed is no change in Originality score. In that sense, no, taking Stoneblessed does not destine you for a penalty. As far as losing points from an otherwise original race, then yes, Stoneblessed nets a penalty.

[Vaz]

Could you clarify how "losing a bonus" differs in the numbers from "getting a penalty"?

I understand what you're saying here, but;

say you get paid a wage. For working well, you get a bonus. For working as you should, but not exceptionally, you get your wage. For working badly, you get penalised. A bonus is a reward granted for doing something well. For example, if you avoid Multiclassing penalties without having severely choppy class progression (alternating isn't choppy in my eyes, by the way), then you get a bonus 0.5 Elegance. It's "dropped points", which I see where you're coming from, but each section starts off with a base line of 3. I'm not starting at 5, and taking off points for things I don't like, or just giving points for things I don't like.

[Amphetryon]

I understand what you're saying here, but;

say you get paid a wage. For working well, you get a bonus. For working as you should, but not exceptionally, you get your wage. For working badly, you get penalised. A bonus is a reward granted for doing something well. For example, if you avoid Multiclassing penalties without having severely choppy class progression (alternating isn't choppy in my eyes, by the way), then you get a bonus 0.5 Elegance. It's "dropped points", which I see where you're coming from, but each section starts off with a base line of 3. I'm not starting at 5, and taking off points for things I don't like, or just giving points for things I don't like.

The point I was making was that - so far as I can tell - using Dwarf OR Stoneblessed will prevent a score of 5 in this round, fundamentally making that category count as being out of 4.5 (or whatever maximum score becomes possible when all entries are penalized). There's a difference between "start at 3 with the possibility of getting up to 2 additional points" and "start at 3, with 2 additional points being impossible in this one category," don't you think? It's generally helpful to contestants to know where to strive for points; knowing up-front that shooting for Originality this time around yielded diminished returns, relative to focusing on other categories, would have been valuable information.

My aim here was merely clarification, as it's not my intent to belabor or otherwise argue this point. We've gone down that road before.

[Vaz]

Ah, I get ya. Sorry, didn't want to make it confrontational, just a bit tired from a long day and now looking at all these entries making preliminary notes. I'll be glad to go to work tomorrow - I need the break!

[lunar2]

The point I was making was that - so far as I can tell - using Dwarf OR Stoneblessed will prevent a score of 5 in this round, fundamentally making that category count as being out of 4.5 (or whatever maximum score becomes possible when all entries are penalized). There's a difference between "start at 3 with the possibility of getting up to 2 additional points" and "start at 3, with 2 additional points being impossible in this one category," don't you think? It's generally helpful to contestants to know where to strive for points; knowing up-front that shooting for Originality this time around yielded diminished returns, relative to focusing on other categories, would have been valuable information.

My aim here was merely clarification, as it's not my intent to belabor or otherwise argue this point. We've gone down that road before.

changeling can enter, as can midgard dwarf (not actually a dwarf subrace, since its an outsider), duergar, or any other dwarf subrace. the penalty seems like it only comes in for bog standard PHB dwarves.

like the stub i posted. straight psionic Duergar knight 9/ DD 10 that takes advantage of reach extenders. high elegance, medium originality, medium or high UoSI, medium power based on at least one criteria posted.

only 2 people actually used knight, and only one made it the sole other ingredient. no one used duergar. i didn't read all the builds, but i'm sure someone used inhuman reach. maybe not deformity (tall), though.

@Dark Fiddler. there was one question i had about your criteria, and just for the record again, i have no entry in this contest. if you are starting UoSI at 3, and taking off half a point for each level not taken, then anyone with 6 or fewer levels in the prestige class gets the exact same score, since as far as i know the minimum score in a category is one so long as you actually meet the basic requirements. this is despite the fact that someone with 6 levels in the class has dedicated a 3rd of their build to the class, and picked up all but one of the unique class features, while someone with just one level might as well not be a DD at all, since they basically just picked up some save bonuses and a dodge bonus to AC (defensive stance only usable once a day doesn't really count as a power boost, imo).

[Seerow]

changeling can enter, as can midgard dwarf (not actually a dwarf subrace, since its an outsider), duergar, or any other dwarf subrace. the penalty seems like it only comes in for bog standard PHB dwarves.

I don't know. Should people get bonus originality points because they pulled out a dwarf subrace like Jungle Dwarf that has no meaningful mechanical difference compared to a real dwarf? Is that actually more original than using Stoneblessed to bring in a race that actually provides an interesting different take on the class?

Duergar I could see being counted as different. But saying most other dwarven subraces count as original implies you expect contestants to jump through hoops, not to provide anything actually powerful or flavorful, but to be different for the sake of being different. I didn't think that's what this competition was about, but maybe I'm wrong.

[WhamBamSam]

It's possible. PM me your guess.



That certainly would have been something. With my Midgard Dwarf build, I would have been hanging way too much on the uniqueness of being the only legal outsider to enter the SI (Midgard Dwarf specifically states it counts as a dwarf for qualifying purposes. I tried to use Stoneblessed to come up with something, but Stoneblessed has a prerequisite of Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, or Giant, and I couldn't really see anything exciting in those options.

Sent.

What Outsider stuff were you planning on for the Midgard Dwarf build? Or was it more novelty than actual mechanical stuff?

[Tim Proctor]

There is another race in Planar Handbook or Manual of the Planes, they are creature like animals but they are dwarves, at least to some extent. But there are over 20 species of Dwarf, a couple outliers like the one I just mentioned, stoneblessed, changeling, etc. There were plenty of options for people.

I know I made a mistake with race, which I will share after scores cause it'll identify which builds are mine.

EDIT: Wildren PH pg 16, they were formed from the union of Dwarves and Celestial Badgers, so like all halfs they qualifty and their badger side doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks about it.

[Tim Proctor]

I don't know. Should people get bonus originality points because they pulled out a dwarf subrace like Jungle Dwarf that has no meaningful mechanical difference compared to a real dwarf? Is that actually more original than using Stoneblessed to bring in a race that actually provides an interesting different take on the class?

I think they are different, I know when I judge I count them as such. To relate to the TV show it's like sea salt, kosher salt, iodized salt, rock salt, specialty salt made from a dehydrated custom brine (yeah I love salt), etc. They make a ton of differences, and without a mechanical difference, I think they add a ton of storyline difference.

[Seerow]

I think they are different, I know when I judge I count them as such. To relate to the TV show it's like sea salt, kosher salt, iodized salt, rock salt, specialty salt made from a dehydrated custom brine (yeah I love salt), etc. They make a ton of differences, and without a mechanical difference, I think they add a ton of storyline difference.

I'm not buying it. The majority of those subraces are literally just Dwarf with some adjective added to the front. Someone with a dwarf could have replaced "Dwarf" with "Deep Dwarf", "Mountain Dwarf", "Shield Dwarf", or whatever else, and proceeded to not change the fluff one iota, and have it come out mechanically and thematically the same... except now they're getting bonus points for originality? Meanwhile someone who actually did something original by using Stoneblessed with an interesting race is failing to earn those same points because Stoneblessed was expected? That's dumb on every possible level.

Subraces in general are superfluous. Extra crap writers like to put in books because it lets them reprint the same material 20 times with no effort on their part. And in a case where the subrace actually makes a meaningful difference to the character mechanically? Sure, that's fine. Bonus points for that. But I see no reason why adding an adjective in front of "Dwarf" makes for a somehow better character.



Disclaimer: Yes I am an entrant, and my build is one of the dozen or so that includes Dwarf (hopefully since there's so many I can say that without causing issues). I actually didn't expect to see any originality points there, because that is entirely expected. But it DOES annoy me that a cheap copout that wouldn't change the build at all would earn those points, meanwhile people who went out of their way to take more interesting options and likely made themselves weaker in the process are getting penalized for that choice because everybody knows that stoneblessed exists.


Edit: Here's a good rule of thumb: If the ruling had been known before submission deadline, would every person in the competition have changed their build to fit the ruling without losing anything they wanted in their dish? If the answer is no, then you've probably got a good ruling. But when the answer is yes, you might want to rethink your position.

[lunar2]

I don't know. Should people get bonus originality points because they pulled out a dwarf subrace like Jungle Dwarf that has no meaningful mechanical difference compared to a real dwarf? Is that actually more original than using Stoneblessed to bring in a race that actually provides an interesting different take on the class?

Duergar I could see being counted as different. But saying most other dwarven subraces count as original implies you expect contestants to jump through hoops, not to provide anything actually powerful or flavorful, but to be different for the sake of being different. I didn't think that's what this competition was about, but maybe I'm wrong.

i wasn't making a value statement. i was simply listing that there are ways to enter the PRC without being a PHB dwarf or using stoneblessed, so it is possible, given the criteria, to get a 5 on originality.

that said, i like the metric of grading originality on the basis of what other contestants have entered. after all, 3.5 has been out so long that nearly every worthwhile combination has been used at least once. grading originality as "do you think differently than the other contestants" is about the most objective way to do it, since different people expect different things and are familiar with different sources.

anyway, i agree that subraces that are mechanically identical to the PHB dwarf should count the same as the PHB dwarf. so, gold dwarf is ok, but mountain dwarf is not.

[Kazudo]

So, it's at this point I think I should advise against scaring off a potential judge and future entrant.

It's also at this point I feel I should remind no one in particular that judges are given mostly free reign of how their criteria works.

Meanwhile, it should be brought up that there are no real rules for judging aside from a few guidelines in the opening post.

Fourthly, it has always been my experience that during judging one's mind can change rapidly on one's criteria. It sucks, but being knee deep in 21 builds is kinda rough. However, any disputes to a judge's ruling should be done POST judging, not PRE judging IMHO.

(subtracts 1 silver from personal stash, watches butterflies go flying out of one's coin pouch.)

[Tim Proctor]

The majority of those subraces are literally just Dwarf with some adjective added to the front.

Actually only like 3 or 4 of them don't have different aspects, it could be like Jungle Dwarf which gets +2 spot, or other small aspects but those do add up. All of the UA Dwarves are different, some use -2 Dex instead of Cha, some gain abilities, etc. only a very few the same on all mechanical issues.

That's dumb on every possible level.

If you are saying that 'Judges expecting builds' and deducting from originality is dumb, I can see that point of view. I also understand that Judges have their own prerogatives on how they want to judge originality. I personally judge by the amount used a simple formula -(Use/Entrants), so with 3 Stoneblessed that would be -.14, you'd also get a bonus of .25 for a unique race, so a net profit of .11.

it DOES annoy me that a cheap copout that wouldn't change the build at all would earn those points

I don't think it's a cheap 'copout' because none of the completely identical versions of Dwarf were used. I think someone not understanding the options and then getting upset because other do, is a cheap copout.

If the ruling had been known before submission deadline, would every person in the competition have changed their build to fit the ruling without losing anything they wanted in their dish? If the answer is no, then you've probably got a good ruling. But when the answer is yes, you might want to rethink your position.

If players don't invest the time to look for that special twist to make everything exactly right, that's their problem not the judges. In all honestly I'd almost expect most judges to give a bye for the Dwarf race like with Monk and Archivist during the Zern Cenobite.

[Muggins]

If players don't invest the time to look for that special twist to make everything exactly right, that's their problem not the judges. In all honestly I'd almost expect most judges to give a bye for the Dwarf race like with Monk and Archivist during the Zern Cenobite.

Welp, I guess that settles it. We can't have nice things because reasons.

On the upside, I guess that means most of us will be on even footing. If the criteria penalises everyone who attempted to achieve the Race: Dwarf prerequisite, everyone's going to get it.

[AvatarVecna]

Welp, I guess that settles it. We can't have nice things because reasons.

On the upside, I guess that means most of us will be on even footing. If the criteria penalises everyone who attempted to achieve the Race: Dwarf prerequisite, everyone's going to get it.

Look on the bright side, guys: sure, we've all had our feet cut off, but at least we're all still on even footing.

Seriously though, so long as the judges are relatively fair in their rulings, I'm sure the best build will come out in the end. Whining about losing a half point in originality when the basic build premise is a dwarf acting as the BSF is an exercise in pointlessness. Whining that people who took races besides the basic dwarf that are functionally similar so that they could have an interesting background are getting more points for originality is even worse.