Thanqol Learns To Draw IV: NO EXCUSES

[Thanqol]

Days 1208-1209: downer

Oh man, I am in the biggest sadface mood right now. Don't want to get into it. In the meantime more rubbish P&P sketches that I'll indefinitely put off uploading.

Curiously, I'm a genius at everything that doesn't involve actually being creative. I guess I'm in an intake mode.

[Thanqol]

Day 1210: full

Arghlebargle.

Links

[Thanqol]

Day 1211: :(

Things that do not make bad moods better:

- Sick dogs.

More sketchbook pages. Mhg. This is just a crap period.

[Thanqol]

Day 1212: maaaaagic

Finally gave in to peer pressure and started watching Puella Magi Madoka Magica. It's, uh, it's to magical girl anime what Spec Ops: The Line was to Modern Warfare.

Anyway, the dog's better and I feel like I'm coming out of the funk. I like where this picture is going too. Hopefully back into it!

Links

Music: I've Got Some Work Ahead Of Me

[Anarion]

Day 1212: maaaaagic

Finally gave in to peer pressure and started watching Puella Magi Madoka Magica. It's, uh, it's to magical girl anime what Spec Ops: The Line was to Modern Warfare.

Anyway, the dog's better and I feel like I'm coming out of the funk. I like where this picture is going too. Hopefully back into it!

Links

Music: I've Got Some Work Ahead Of Me

If I'd known you hadn't seen it, I'd definitely have pressed it in you. It's such a great anime.

Don't read this until you're done with it.

Spoiler

Show

Kyubey is my favorite character, and when I got to the end, I actually saw the show as essentially a game of psychological warfare between Kyubey and Homura. Nobody else understands what the heck is going on, and the two of them are the ones directly competing for Madoka's soul. Madoka's only real agency in the story is her decision in the finale, which wasn't expected by anyone.

[SiuiS]

In retrospect it should have been obvious. In all the pitches for Mage, changeling, and everything else, PMMM did not show up once. I guarantee if Thanqol knew before hand he would not have shut up about it – it's platonic ideal of magical girl anime.


That's an interesting choice of favorites, Anarion. I find your position interesting and slightly alien. I shall have to hunt you down for elaborations.

[Thanqol]

In retrospect it should have been obvious. In all the pitches for Mage, changeling, and everything else, PMMM did not show up once. I guarantee if Thanqol knew before hand he would not have shut up about it – it's platonic ideal of magical girl anime.

I disagree. It's an ingenious subversion of the magical girl genre. It's a dark parody and a deep, involved exploration of the cliche phrase "I want to be a magical girl" in the same way that Fate: Stay Night was a deconstruction of "I want to save everyone". And it's really, really good at achieving that goal.

I don't necessary feel that it has a particularly strong bearing on Mage or Changeling. Monster Hearts would definitely benefit from a custom Magical Girl Skin, but that's as far as that goes. PMMM derives its strength from being a deconstruction of a genre.

[Thanqol]

Day 1213: Additive Shading

Heard a weird idea and want to try it.

As an alternative to the more difficult/time consuming ways to do shaded lineless art, it is theoretically possible to bang down some quick lineart, create a new layer above the black lines, and do all the shading/detail work on that level instead. Like painting on top of a lineart sketch rather than working around underneath it?

Anyway, that's what I want to try with this, it could be a mad shortcut to a style I really want to master.

Links

[Marcivo]

Unlurking because I've pestered Thanqol about this numerous times.

That's an interesting choice of favorites, Anarion. I find your position interesting and slightly alien. I shall have to hunt you down for elaborations.

Agreed. I never saw him as much of a character, really. He was more like a reflection in oil to me, specifically as it concerns

Spoiler: Ending spoilers

Show

Homura's gradual transformation from the plucky and awkward new kid into the stern, emotionless sociopath that she is at the start of the series. I saw it as her gazing into the abyss, so to speak, putting herself on Kyubey's level and pursuing her insane agenda to save Madoka with the exact same singleminded intensity with which Kyubey is determined to make Madoka a magical girl.

This is definitely a series that gains new significance on a second run – Homura and Kyubey are actually two sides of the same coin. They both use manipulation to get what they want, but whereas Kyubey keeps Madoka in the dark, Homura wants to cram as much information down Madoka’s throat without sounding mental. She wants to frighten Madoka out of accepting Kyubey’s bargain. This is literally the very first thing they talk about, but Homura deliberately keeps it vague in order to maintain credibility. At this point, Madoka has zero concept of magical girls.

Mind, she tried being straight with Madoka in previous timelines, right from the start. But it failed.

Remember: by the time she's introduced, Homura has endured this time loop for more than one-hundred recursions, according to Word of God, putting her in her early 20s at the start of the series. She’s spent half of her life trying to save Madoka. She knows exactly what she’s doing, and the only things standing in her way are Kyubey and her own inability to convince Madoka to reject the bargain despite the knowledge that magic is real, wishes come true, and infinite power can be hers, if only she makes a soul gem shine. Kyubey has the advantage of letting Madoka fix everything, instantly, but at what cost? This is absolutely psychological warfare.

And that's where Madoka's agency comes into play. In every significant encounter, she's always the fragile bystander, always standing behind a fence or needing rescue. When she manages to take Sayaka aside personally, Sayaka shuts her down because she can't understand what Sayaka's going through. Madoka's only recourse is the power of love, but we all know how that turns out.

And that's fine! Because these aren't problems you can solve using love They're mindless abominations of hate and insecurity with Lovecraftian amounts of power. You might as well yell at the sun.

The only options this leaves Madoka is to join the system and fight back, to gain some sort of agency in exchange for her soul, or to somehow fundamentally alter the system.

No one expects it to happen, but in the end, that's precisely what she does.

And all that said, Sayaka was definitely my favorite my character.

Edit: Since this is technically an art thread, I'd like to add that I like the way Thanqol drew her eyes. They're It is very striking and well-framed. Hair might use a minor tweak, though. It looks to me like a monster-hand wrapping around her left arm. Hidden symbolism?

[the_druid_droid]

Day 1212: maaaaagic

Finally gave in to peer pressure and started watching Puella Magi Madoka Magica. It's, uh, it's to magical girl anime what Spec Ops: The Line was to Modern Warfare.

This is actually a really good description of the show.

That's an interesting choice of favorites, Anarion. I find your position interesting and slightly alien. I shall have to hunt you down for elaborations.

Hmm, out of curiosity, who's yours?

Unlurking because I've pestered Thanqol about this numerous times.

Oh, hey, Marcivo too! We should start up another PMMM discussion thread now with all these folks around who've watched it >.>

Also yeah, the art is looking pretty neat, Thanqol. How is the new method coming along on your end?

[SiuiS]

I disagree. It's an ingenious subversion of the magical girl genre. It's a dark parody and a deep, involved exploration of the cliche phrase "I want to be a magical girl" in the same way that Fate: Stay Night was a deconstruction of "I want to save everyone". And it's really, really good at achieving that goal.

I don't necessary feel that it has a particularly strong bearing on Mage or Changeling. Monster Hearts would definitely benefit from a custom Magical Girl Skin, but that's as far as that goes. PMMM derives its strength from being a deconstruction of a genre.

Heh. I don't see a worthwhile difference between a deconstruction – breaking something down to it's base components to get to the heart of a thing – and 'a platonic ideal' which represents the heart of a thing. Not at this level of detail.

But not the thread for it, and I've said my piece.

Hmm, out of curiosity, who's yours?

No idea. I don't operate that way.

Spoiler

Show

I suppose Homura, because she most closely represents my own current emotions and ideals, but that's not the same as having a favorite stand out to you. Madoka' send is one I aspire to, madoka' brother is why I aspire to it, and... That's it really. Although blonde expendable, I empathize with her sudden joy at friends and then being snuffed out.

Oh, hey, Marcivo too! We should start up another PMMM discussion thread now with all these folks around who've watched it >.>

Also yeah, the art is looking pretty neat, Thanqol. How is the new method coming along on your end?

It continually surprises me what Thanqol and I each consider fundamental and exotic and unique. There's a fabulous array of lessons on attentiveness and application there, although I'm sure it would only make me look bad if examined.

[Thanqol]

Edit: Since this is technically an art thread, I'd like to add that I like the way Thanqol drew her eyes. They're It is very striking and well-framed. Hair might use a minor tweak, though. It looks to me like a monster-hand wrapping around her left arm. Hidden symbolism?

Can't claim any credit for the composition here, I'm working pretty close to a model to try and figure out how to do it.

Also yeah, the art is looking pretty neat, Thanqol. How is the new method coming along on your end?

Weird.

Heh. I don't see a worthwhile difference between a deconstruction – breaking something down to it's base components to get to the heart of a thing – and 'a platonic ideal' which represents the heart of a thing. Not at this level of detail.

But not the thread for it, and I've said my piece.

Because a deconstruction requires context. If you start off with the deconstruction there are no expectations to subvert.


Day 1214: More Difficult Than Advertised

Okay, I pretty quickly ran into the difficulties of the technique. I went through the following processes:

- Doing your shading above your linework necessitates you do it above your flats as well, which means you can't take advantage of layering, or blend your brushes with the lower levels.
- Thick black linework is always really noticeable and difficult to finesse around even at 9% opacity
- Flattening the entire image and then painting over it has potential but is really messy, especially when establishing second-layer lineart.
- None of my brush presets work for that style of flattened image sharpening and finessing.
- Tried a few old brush presets as part of an experiment in hair texture but the potential for those is limited.
- The paint-over method is good for the jawline and other spots where a transition is more fady than sharp, though.

This is a pain in the butt because I know how to get the end result I really want - it's just a method that takes a lot of time and energy. I'm trying to devise some sort of speed-painterly-linework technique but I'm starting to suspect that it might be an unreachable goal. I need to find the intersection of effective techniques and effective outcomes, and that's a really hard point to navigate.

Links

[Madcrafter]

Hmm. I'm not really seeing what the end goal is here, or how this is different then what I might call a more "traditional" style of painting. Do you have a link you can show for what you're after?

[Tiki Snakes]

I disagree. It's an ingenious subversion of the magical girl genre. It's a dark parody and a deep, involved exploration of the cliche phrase "I want to be a magical girl" in the same way that Fate: Stay Night was a deconstruction of "I want to save everyone". And it's really, really good at achieving that goal.

I don't necessary feel that it has a particularly strong bearing on Mage or Changeling. Monster Hearts would definitely benefit from a custom Magical Girl Skin, but that's as far as that goes. PMMM derives its strength from being a deconstruction of a genre.

I remember it being discussed but yeah, there's an argument to be made that it's possibly less of a deconstruction than you might think. It's certainly a deconstruction, but there are more traditional magical girl shows that might surprise you or at least that's what I understand was claimed at one point. Certainly I'd include the rather drawn-out Revolutionary Girl Utena in that, though that has elements of Deconstruction to it as well at least to my mind.

Day 1213: Additive Shading

Heard a weird idea and want to try it.

As an alternative to the more difficult/time consuming ways to do shaded lineless art, it is theoretically possible to bang down some quick lineart, create a new layer above the black lines, and do all the shading/detail work on that level instead. Like painting on top of a lineart sketch rather than working around underneath it?

Anyway, that's what I want to try with this, it could be a mad shortcut to a style I really want to master.

Links

I dunno man, sounds more complicated, not less.

Day 1214: More Difficult Than Advertised

Okay, I pretty quickly ran into the difficulties of the technique. I went through the following processes:

- Doing your shading above your linework necessitates you do it above your flats as well, which means you can't take advantage of layering, or blend your brushes with the lower levels.
- Thick black linework is always really noticeable and difficult to finesse around even at 9% opacity
- Flattening the entire image and then painting over it has potential but is really messy, especially when establishing second-layer lineart.
- None of my brush presets work for that style of flattened image sharpening and finessing.
- Tried a few old brush presets as part of an experiment in hair texture but the potential for those is limited.
- The paint-over method is good for the jawline and other spots where a transition is more fady than sharp, though.

This is a pain in the butt because I know how to get the end result I really want - it's just a method that takes a lot of time and energy. I'm trying to devise some sort of speed-painterly-linework technique but I'm starting to suspect that it might be an unreachable goal. I need to find the intersection of effective techniques and effective outcomes, and that's a really hard point to navigate.

Links

It is my official position here that you are bumping in to your over reliance on line-art again on this.
To which I make the following suggestion;
Next piece, you are allowed the following things - The colour Black. The colour white. A large, simple brush, (you may adjust opacity, but avoid adjusting size too much to avoid the temptation to sneak in some lines) and a single layer. You are specifically forbidden from using the following; The Eraser. Layers. Layer Opacity/masking. Line work.
As an additional suggestion, do not work from a picture reference. Take a lamp and use it to create strong directional lighting and apply that to a human being you have direct access to, whether that is a volunteer or yourself via a mirror.

EDIT - Think I was actually failing to brain your proposed method there to some degree. On re-reading, it almost sounds like what you're suggesting is that you paint over the top of a sketch? That's...not a particularly radical concept, really. Just work rough and loose and try to avoid turning the sketch layer into actual linework, it's just there to vaguely guide shapes after all.

[SiuiS]

Day 1214: More Difficult Than Advertised

Okay, I pretty quickly ran into the difficulties of the technique. I went through the following processes:

- Doing your shading above your linework necessitates you do it above your flats as well, which means you can't take advantage of layering, or blend your brushes with the lower levels.
- Thick black linework is always really noticeable and difficult to finesse around even at 9% opacity
- Flattening the entire image and then painting over it has potential but is really messy, especially when establishing second-layer lineart.
- None of my brush presets work for that style of flattened image sharpening and finessing.
- Tried a few old brush presets as part of an experiment in hair texture but the potential for those is limited.
- The paint-over method is good for the jawline and other spots where a transition is more fady than sharp, though.

This is a pain in the butt because I know how to get the end result I really want - it's just a method that takes a lot of time and energy. I'm trying to devise some sort of speed-painterly-linework technique but I'm starting to suspect that it might be an unreachable goal. I need to find the intersection of effective techniques and effective outcomes, and that's a really hard point to navigate.

Links

Interesting. Nice work by the way, I honestly expected another blocky dresden codak style pic.

Have you considered being able to completely reverse the layering order? That sounds, superficially, like it solves the issue you had? It lets you go about blending and all again.

Hmm. I'm not really seeing what the end goal is here, or how this is different then what I might call a more "traditional" style of painting. Do you have a link you can show for what you're after?

Sounds like he wants similar quality but with an easier process. Which I also believe to be flawed, since almost all outputs for art get fast because of routine use, rather than inherent "betterness". But hey, what do I know?

[Thanqol]

Interesting. Nice work by the way, I honestly expected another blocky dresden codak style pic.

Have you considered being able to completely reverse the layering order? That sounds, superficially, like it solves the issue you had? It lets you go about blending and all again.

Yes, but then there are either weird gaps in the flats where the linework used to go, or horrifying messiness based on flats methods being imprecise.

Sounds like he wants similar quality but with an easier process. Which I also believe to be flawed, since almost all outputs for art get fast because of routine use, rather than inherent "betterness". But hey, what do I know?

I'm trying to systematise techniques; be able to sit down, use brushes X and techniques Y to reliable produce output Z, whereupon the focus is just on refining Z. It's like, making sure I'm holding the right pens and brushes before I put ink to canvas. It's just, like, apparently the craziest and most challenging and least discussed section of art? That the answer is just inefficient artisianal seeing what works and what doesn't and hope that all builds up? And also hoping that you're not doing something totally stupid and pointless, like learning to draw using a mouse.

It bugs me. Bugs me more than anything else I've encountered on this project.

It is my official position here that you are bumping in to your over reliance on line-art again on this.

I feel like I really appreciate a solid structure, though. Painterly pieces without some sort of barrier tend to swell.

To which I make the following suggestion;
Next piece, you are allowed the following things - The colour Black. The colour white. A large, simple brush, (you may adjust opacity, but avoid adjusting size too much to avoid the temptation to sneak in some lines) and a single layer. You are specifically forbidden from using the following; The Eraser. Layers. Layer Opacity/masking. Line work.
As an additional suggestion, do not work from a picture reference. Take a lamp and use it to create strong directional lighting and apply that to a human being you have direct access to, whether that is a volunteer or yourself via a mirror.

Fine, I'll give it a shot.

EDIT - Think I was actually failing to brain your proposed method there to some degree. On re-reading, it almost sounds like what you're suggesting is that you paint over the top of a sketch? That's...not a particularly radical concept, really. Just work rough and loose and try to avoid turning the sketch layer into actual linework, it's just there to vaguely guide shapes after all.

The concept was to paint over linework, and while it sounds obvious I encountered a bunch of really deceptive hangups with it, as I noted.

[Thanqol]

Day 1215: How Yellow

Thanqol's Opinions About Colours:

- Yellow is a crazy shapechanging liar who refuses to co-operate
- Blue is the most bland, boring wannabe only notable for his taste for the gothic
- Green is like some kind of gleaming genius I'm afraid to touch
- Brown exists in this sublime state of being all colours and no colours
- Red doesn't really exist. It's kind of a strange highlight to yellow and brown.
- Purple is the only colour who has it's sh*t together.

Links

[Thanqol]

Day 1216: Guarded

Maybe I should just change my subject matter. Anyway, this is what I mean when I say purple is the best colour, I think I'll start sketching in purple from now on.

Also getting decent lines seems to be as stupidly simple as just iterating on a sketch multiple times.

Links (NSFW)

Music: Black Cat Bone

[Cuthalion]

I like this one quite a lot, really.

[Marcivo]

Finally, a man who understands the sublime beauty of purple. My sister and I are quite at odds on this topic. She utterly despises the color.

I get a strong Jukashi vibe from this one.

[SiuiS]

Finally, a man who understands the sublime beauty of purple. My sister and I are quite at odds on this topic. She utterly despises the color.

I get a strong Jukashi vibe from this one.

Your use of color must have tone, tenor, texture, direction and emotion accounted for. I've seen people use colors as if they were just using a different black on white and it's terrible. It's like smearing menses on paper, maybe it's artistic at first but then it's just a terrible misuse of just about everything involved.

In your sister's defense, some folks just. Cannot. Purple.

Or similar, like wen someone dyes their hair red and suddenly wears twelve shades of green? Ugh.

[Tiki Snakes]

Day 1216: Guarded

Maybe I should just change my subject matter. Anyway, this is what I mean when I say purple is the best colour, I think I'll start sketching in purple from now on.

Also getting decent lines seems to be as stupidly simple as just iterating on a sketch multiple times.

Links (NSFW)

Music: Black Cat Bone

Oh the irony. Thanqol embraces purple, and the art turns blue!

[Thanqol]

I like this one quite a lot, really.

Finally, a man who understands the sublime beauty of purple. My sister and I are quite at odds on this topic. She utterly despises the color.

I get a strong Jukashi vibe from this one.

Thanks.

Day 1217: Serpentine

Interesting.

Links (NSFW)

Music: Gone

[Marcivo]

Your use of color must have tone, tenor, texture, direction and emotion accounted for. I've seen people use colors as if they were just using a different black on white and it's terrible. It's like smearing menses on paper, maybe it's artistic at first but then it's just a terrible misuse of just about everything involved.

In your sister's defense, some folks just. Cannot. Purple.

Or similar, like wen someone dyes their hair red and suddenly wears twelve shades of green? Ugh.

My sister's distinctly the latter, unfortunately. A graphic designer by day, I suspect she caught the bug somewhere at university.

Interesting, too. If you read her portfolio as a time-progression, she manages to phase out all purple by Sophomore spring semester.

-------

Good work again on the new piece, but something throws me off on the right wing. Shouldn't geometry dictate her right wing as more of a foreground object? Maybe it's the pose. Not to sound nitpicky, but perhaps if you rotated her torso a bit more at the waist...

[Thanqol]

My sister's distinctly the latter, unfortunately. A graphic designer by day, I suspect she caught the bug somewhere at university.

Interesting, too. If you read her portfolio as a time-progression, she manages to phase out all purple by Sophomore spring semester.

-------

Good work again on the new piece, but something throws me off on the right wing. Shouldn't geometry dictate her right wing as more of a foreground object? Maybe it's the pose. Not to sound nitpicky, but perhaps if you rotated her torso a bit more at the waist...

I don't know what you mean by foreground object here. Will agree I slacked on the wings.

Day 1218: Better Call Kenny Loggins

Literally can't stop listening to Danger Zone. Could be the greatest song ever produced by humans.

Links (NSFW)

[SiuiS]

I don't know what you mean by foreground object here. Will agree I slacked on the wings.

Day 1218: Better Call Kenny Loggins

Literally can't stop listening to Danger Zone. Could be the greatest song ever produced by humans.

Links (NSFW)

Depth. The subject is the center, neutral zone. Her left wig (out right) should be in the background relative to neutral. Her right wing (out visual left) should be a foreground object – it should appear closer to is the audience because it sticks out of her body, out of neutral, and closer towards the camera as it were.

It does not do that, seemingly drawn to poke at us, but depth-wise it follows the tail.


Something is off on the bone structure of this one. Human model or art model? Looks like residual boobs-butt pose.

[Madcrafter]

Something is off on the bone structure of this one. Human model or art model? Looks like residual boobs-butt pose.

I was going to maybe say leg length compared to body. Thighs seem a bit short compared to her torso, at least judging by my eye (and some experimentation curling into a ball and a tape measure). She could just have short legs though I suppose.

[Thanqol]

Page after page of no comment and the moment I start drawing undressed ladies everyone has something to say.

Depth. The subject is the center, neutral zone. Her left wig (out right) should be in the background relative to neutral. Her right wing (out visual left) should be a foreground object – it should appear closer to is the audience because it sticks out of her body, out of neutral, and closer towards the camera as it were.

It does not do that, seemingly drawn to poke at us, but depth-wise it follows the tail.

Something is off on the bone structure of this one. Human model or art model? Looks like residual boobs-butt pose.

Art model. There are a few anatomy mistakes with these, I'm focusing on getting the hang of this new sketching technique more. Still I should avoid mistakes where I can on principle.

I was going to maybe say leg length compared to body. Thighs seem a bit short compared to her torso, at least judging by my eye (and some experimentation curling into a ball and a tape measure). She could just have short legs though I suppose.

Probably a goof.

Day 1219: A Moment

Today's picture is too racy to upload to this website. Which is a pity, 'cause I think I nailed it. Even tried a censor blur but no, no the entire thing was kind of unmistakable.

Instead, have a video of puppies on slides.

[Tiki Snakes]

There's always your deviantart page, if it comes to it.

[Marcivo]

There's always your deviantart page, if it comes to it.

But is it really worth the risk of becoming another one of those Deviantart pages? I suppose it depends on the amount of raciness we're dealing with, and the amount of art already there. I haven't checked Thanqol's page in a while, so I can't say for sure.

Perhaps we should shrug our shoulders, set our jaws, and leave it to our horrible imaginings.