MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I know it isn't relevant, since the Giant said it long before strip 100 (around 52) and it directly contradicts Start of Darkness, but I found this sweet little sentence: "[...]he didn't create goblins or ogres, but he did create zombies and ogre zombies and whatever is in the shadows there."
Which, I think, is funny. That's all. *Hides in shadows again*

(Psst, how does one link to one specific post?)

Interesting that he would say that. I wonder what he had imagined MitD to be before he finally settled on what it actually is.

[DaggerPen]

Interesting that he would say that. I wonder what he had imagined MitD to be before he finally settled on what it actually is.

Huh! That is really interesting. Possibly some type of construct, more likely some type of undead, but I doubt he's either now.

[ti'esar]

So when the Giant said that anything prior to strip 100 or so shouldn't be considered a clue to the MitD's identity, there actually were specific clues? Huh.

[Throknor]

So when the Giant said that anything prior to strip 100 or so shouldn't be considered a clue to the MitD's identity, there actually were specific clues? Huh.

He said nothing in the strip before 100 contradicts what it is. While its personality became refined that doesn't affect what it physically is. I doubt he was thinking of one random early post of many when we was writing that.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

He said nothing in the strip before 100 contradicts what it is. While its personality became refined that doesn't affect what it physically is. I doubt he was thinking of one random early post of many when we was writing that.

That, or the Giant was referring solely to the strip, not the forums.

[2.5 cats]

Not sure if this has been discussed already, or is sufficiently on-topic, but, as we saw in, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html , Kraagar's gate is protected by "the nastiest monsters in the world."

I wonder...

Spoiler

Show

Was the MitD orginally stationed there at Kraagar's gate, and somehow escaped/got lost/was kicked out?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not sure if this has been discussed already, or is sufficiently on-topic, but, as we saw in, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html , Kraagar's gate is protected by "the nastiest monsters in the world."

I wonder...Was the MitD orginally stationed there at Kraagar's gate, and somehow escaped/got lost/was kicked out?

(Please don't spoiler that kind of thing. What would be the point? This thread is already awash with spoilers)

It has been discussed, but as a hypothesis it doesn't do much to advance the purpose of the thread - i.e. what MitD actually is*. That said, it has historically not been a particularly well-liked hypothesis, regardless of its explanatory power. People seem to prefer either "his dad is in Kraagar's gate" or "a member of MiTD's species of marrying age and of the appropriate gender to MitD's sexual preference is in Kraagar's gate".

Yours,

Grey Wolf

*ETA: by which I mean: that's why it's not in the OP. But feel free to discuss it, by all means.

[lothos]

Hello,
It's been a long time since I posted anything substantial to this thread. I've been looking in and reading from time to time, but I didn't feel I had much to contribute.

However I was thinking about MitD a couple of days ago and particularly thinking about the fact that psionic teleport doesn’t require the "caster" (manifester) to go along for the ride, like the arcane spell teleport does. I started thinking about powerful psionic monsters.

I have a new candidate I'd like to propose for consideration - The Psionic Version of the Illithid Elder Brain.

Although initially it seems a very weird idea, I think it mostly fits the big scenes and I can't find it in the first post of this current version of the thread. Apologies if this has already been considered and rejected. I did a forum search (now the search is back), but couldn't find any mention of this in this thread or any of the previous ones.

In keeping with other suggestions I make (e.g. Dread Linnorm) it has the wrong number of eyes. As far as I can tell, the Elder Brain has zero eyes, not two… but passing over that problem, here is how I think it fits the big scenes:

1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape

The psionic version of the elder brain, from page 145 of "Lords of Madness" specifically lists "Psionic Greater Teleport" as a "typical" 7th level power of an elder brain. The arcane version of the elder brain (for campaigns not using psionics) lists Teleport (the regular, non grater one that's 5th level) as a typical spell.

The psionic version has the obvious advantages that the elder brain wouldn't need to move when he moved his friends to safety. Plus of course, being greater teleport, it's much more feasible to get to the western continent, the range being unlimited on the same plane for greater teleport, but being 100 miles per level for regular teleport.

Online, here is an example of the psionic version of the elder brain. This doesn't quite match up with the powers and abilities in "Lords of Madness", but it's close. It does have psionic teleport, but not psionic greater teleport.

However here is a basic description of the "magic" version which has the spell casting of a 20th level sorcerer.


2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)

The Elder brain has some quite formidable defences, which Miko (in strip 374) wouldn't be able to overcome easily:

AC30
Damage Reduction 15 / adamantine
Regeneration 10

We have no evidence what Miko's weapons are, but there's no reason to believe they are adamantine. Same goes for Belkar in strip 477.

The attack part of the tower scene is problematic. The Elder Brain in Lords of Madness only has a strength of 13, very low. I'd want a strength up in the 50's maybe for the smash through the wall. It does however have +20 to melee attacks with improved grab, so maybe it might just be plausible ? I don't know if a +20 attack means it's hits harder, or just more accurately ?


3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)

It looks like a large brain with tentacles coming out of it… I think that's a reasonable explanation. People would feel sick.. and it's got enough hit dice (26 hit dice) that the Knowledge (Dungeoneering) check to identify it might well be high enough to confuse the guy in robes in the audience to say "I've never seen anything like it".

4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)

It's not a deity. It's not undead. It's not an elemental. It has a physical body. Although it doesn't explicitly say it can become an undead creature, we know that mind flayers themselves can become undead. So it's reasonable to assume it's possible, even if Elder Brains don't normally need to become undead (because they live basically forever). It's size and creature type is "Large Aberration".

It does have limbs - tentacles. They could "stomp" in strip 477 and hold the rope at the gobbotopia ceremony in strip 701.


5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.

They have existed since 1st Edition AD&D at least. I used to play 1st Edition and I remember a reference to them in an adventure I ran once as a DM, though I'm afraid I can't provide a citation.

However looking for them in 3.5 source books, I can only find it so far in "Lords of Madness", which was published in April 2005, which is after strip #100. The detailed statistics are on page 144, but there is a great deal of fluff text around page 88.

I can tell you for certain though that they existed in earlier editions. I remember one being in an Illithid community in 1st edition.

One also featured in the book by R.A Slavatore "Exile" published in 1990 (link to Wikipedia Article). During that book Drizzt Do'Urden gets "zapped" by some mind flayers and ends up being a thrall to the elder brain, massaging it's cerebral tissue all day. With his high dexterity, the elder brain values him enormously, loving the delicate touch he has massaging the brain's cortex.... that's why his brain doesn’t become lunch for a mind flayer right away and of course eventually escapes....

So while it's arguable if Rich would have known about the content of Lords of Madness at Strip 100, there is perhaps 20 years of history of Elder Brains existing before then, so Rich definitely could have known of them and their general characteristics even if the specific 3.5 edition statistics didn't exist until after strip 100.

6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")

The size in Lords of Madness is "Large", so that fits. The fluff text says it's "8 to 10 feet in diameter". If MitD is an infant of some kind, he might be smaller than this.

7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)

Despite it's amazing psionic powers and high will save (+24) it's not listed anywhere that I can see as being immune to mind affecting powers. So I'm pretty certain an elder brain is NOT immune to mind affecting effects. This is the case both for the psionic and the "magic" version of the elder brain.


There's a few other things I think support this idea:


a) It has a C.R of 25 - Definitely Epic enough that Xylon could consider it powerful enough to destroy the order of the stick and more powerful than an ancient silver dragon.

EDIT- I'd like to correct this statement. I just checked. An ancient silver dragon has a C.R of 26, one more than that of the Illithid Elder Brain at 25. Sorry. It's still pretty powerful though.... more than our old friend the Tarrasque at a C.R of 20, so I don't think this is a huge issue...)

b) It has a high knowledge (the planes) skill at +38.. so it would know about the Astral Plane in strip 833.

c) It has a high spellcraft and/or psicraft skill at +42, so it would easily recognise "The stupid half of the ritual" from strip 700.

d) While it's strength (13) is pitiable if we think the earthquake was caused by pure physical strength, there is a psionic power "stomp" and there's - is there a psionic earthquake ?

e) When using it's non teleporting movement modes, it apparently conveys itself on it's tentacles. That would leave weird tracks that Belkar might well not be able to identify in strip 474.

f) The normal environment is a pool of briny water underground, so the stereotyped big game hunters could be surprised to find it in the jungle.

g) There's no languages listed for the Elder Brain. They normally communicate telepathically. So arguably, the stereotyped big game hunters could be surprised to hear it speaking Common. On the other hand, you might argue that it doesn't have the right body parts (e.g. a mouth) to communicate verbally. The description doesn't say that it does or does not have a mouth, but just like eyes, there's no mouth shown on the picture.

h) High Intelligence (28) means it could learn "Go" very quickly.


There are several issues:

1. There's no reason to believe it has any eyes. The description doesn’t say it does NOT have eyes, but it doesn’t seem to have a face. The description suggests it's a brain with tentacles. Maybe it has glowing tips of the tentacles that look like eyes… but this seems a stretch because you would expect them to wave around independently, rather than always being together on the same horizontal level.

2. The life cycle of the Elder Brains is a mystery. So his Father could mean anything...

3. The Elder Brain does eat… but it normally eats the mind flayer "tadpoles" in it's briny pool. Arguably, you could even call these "babies", the one thing we know MitD won't eat… Maybe he left his Mind Flayer community because he didn't want to "eat babies". I think this is also a bit of a stretch.

4. Elder Brains have a fly speed. So it might not have left any tracks at all in strip 474. Or I guess you could say it was trailing it's tentacles across the ground and those are the tracks that Belkar saw and couldn't identify.

4. The very low strength (13) doesn’t feel right for the tower scene attack. Though it has the +20 melee attack, my understanding is that this doesn’t necessarily mean it hits hard. Just that it's good (accurate) at hitting it's target. Am I wrong ? Does the +20 to melee attack imply it hits hard too ?

5. The wisdom is 25, which is lower than it's intelligence, but does seem higher than we would expect from the apparent naiveté that MitD displays.


-------------------------

So in summary, it's not a perfect fit. But it is a powerful creature (CR25) that is NOT immune to mind affecting spells, neatly explains the circus scene, is capable of being made in to undead (in theory), does eat (kind of), can very neatly explain the escape scene, can neatly fit the defences in the tower scene and could STOMP (as a psionic power) to explain the earthquake.

Pity it (probably) doesn't have any eyes.

I'm not saying it is a frontrunner, but I'd like to suggest it for consideration.

Cheers.

[Bird]

What a cool suggestion! Thank you for all the work you put into that post. I enjoyed reading it, and I think your proposal deserves serious consideration.

Thanks for bringing up Drizzt-and-the-Elder-Brain, too, which I'd completely forgotten about. Heh.

4. The very low strength (13) doesn’t feel right for the tower scene attack. Though it has the +20 melee attack, my understanding is that this doesn’t necessarily mean it hits hard. Just that it's good (accurate) at hitting it's target. Am I wrong ? Does the +20 to melee attack imply it hits hard too ?

Unfortunately, you're not wrong. A 20th level halfling rogue with the big attack bonus isn't knocking people across the room with her dagger. She's just better at stabbing.

A big attack bonus does allow you to funnel more damage into power attack, but that doesn't help in this situation. I think The Tower really does require huge strength, or some other trick that an attack bonus on improved grab just isn't going to simulate.

[lothos]

What a cool suggestion! Thank you for all the work you put into that post. I enjoyed reading it, and I think your proposal deserves serious consideration.

Thanks for bringing up Drizzt-and-the-Elder-Brain, too, which I'd completely forgotten about. Heh.

Thanks :-)
Yes, I remember shortly after I had read Exile, a friend of my DM'd an adventure involving a load of Mind Flayers. The moment we knew Illithids were involved, another member of our group who happened to be playing an elf said "No way am I becoming a brain massager".... we had all read the book :-)

Unfortunately, you're not wrong. A 20th level halfling rogue with the big attack bonus isn't knocking people across the room with her dagger. She's just better at stabbing.

A big attack bonus does allow you to funnel more damage into power attack, but that doesn't help in this situation. I think The Tower really does require huge strength, or some other trick that an attack bonus on improved grab just isn't going to simulate.

I thought that was the case, but never having actually played 3rd edition (or 2nd, or 4th), I thought I'd better defer to those with more knowledge than me.

Sad to say, that plus the lack of eyes probably rules it out :-( Oh well....

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I like this suggestion, and how you listed the pros and cons of it. However, I do think that low strength is fairly damaging, as well as it not having an update until Lords of Madness*, and, as far as I can tell, only communicating via telepathy.

*Admittedly I don't play any of the early editions, so perhaps someone could help inform me on how different they are.

[ChristianSt]

and, as far as I can tell, only communicating via telepathy.

actually I would say that is even a plus point. If it normally only communicates via telepathy, there is a real reason why the SBGHs are surprised that it can talk. (see Section 2b: Abilities, Speech in the OP)

[rweird]

It seems like a decent fit, but lack of eyes are a problem, and it cannot adequately explain the tower scene (no way to hit them through a wall, unless there is some power it has I'm missing). Bonus to hit is just how accurate you are, not how strong.

[brian 333]

Elder Brains are sessile and dependent upon the pool of cerebral fluid in which they live, so having one wandering around behind Xykon would be a difficult feat. Then there is the fact that an Elder Brain is composed of the brains of the community of mind flayers and retains their knowledge and memories, so one would never have a childlike state and thus never have a childlike state of mind, as MitD does.

However, there are several offshoots of the Mind Flayer race which could qualify as the MitD, including the dread Neothelid or, in its immature state, the Larval Flayer. In fact, the Larval Flayer comes to mind as the prime candidate for MitD, (powerful, childlike, tentacled horror and nobody knows what it is,) except for its stated aversion to eating babies.

But there is one factor that has been left out of the Illithid equation which is that no form of Mind Flayer has rainforest as its preferred habitat, and MitD clearly became aware of his existence in a rainforest where his 'dad' resided, and he was there long enough to know his dad ate a lot.

[ReaderAt2046]

RE: The Elder Brain:

I actually don't think that the low Strength is that much of a problem. From what I understand, telekinesis (psionic or otherwise) will cover that situation handily and it's quite possible that something like this Elder Brain would think that TK was the correct thing to use in a hitting contest.

And as I understand it, the fact that an Elder Brain really shouldn't be in a rainforest is a point in its favor, since the SBGH were surprised to find the MITD there.

[brian 333]

RE: The Elder Brain:

I actually don't think that the low Strength is that much of a problem. From what I understand, telekinesis (psionic or otherwise) will cover that situation handily and it's quite possible that something like this Elder Brain would think that TK was the correct thing to use in a hitting contest.

And as I understand it, the fact that an Elder Brain really shouldn't be in a rainforest is a point in its favor, since the SBGH were surprised to find the MITD there.

How do you account for MitD's childlike behavior? An Elder Brain begins with the memories of a Mind Flayer Adult, possibly a venerable adult. There is never a stage of its life cycle where it has less than the full knowledge of an adult Mind Flayer, and so it can never be a child. They are, by definition, the elders of the Mind Flayer Race.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

RE: The Elder Brain:

I actually don't think that the low Strength is that much of a problem. From what I understand, telekinesis (psionic or otherwise) will cover that situation handily and it's quite possible that something like this Elder Brain would think that TK was the correct thing to use in a hitting contest.

It's a game of "hit the lightest", not "push the lightest". Hitting requires physical contact. Telekinesis doesn't fit the description given. Now, we don't see the actual action taken by MitD agaisnt Miko, but I would expect some kind of lampshading of the fact he had not actually hit her if he had pushed her through a wall with his mind.

Grey Wolf

[Bird]

How do you account for MitD's childlike behavior?

Brain damage.

[rweird]

It's a game of "hit the lightest", not "push the lightest". Hitting requires physical contact. Telekinesis doesn't fit the description given. Now, we don't see the actual action taken by MitD agaisnt Miko, but I would expect some kind of lampshading of the fact he had not actually hit her if he had pushed her through a wall with his mind.

Grey Wolf

Also, telekinesis couldn't easily break the wall (as 15d6 isn't very much damage too a wall, but Milko would hardly count as a large dense object, or weigh 375 pounds, and horses in general weigh to much to be thrown, while bull rushes can't break objects, making telekinesis not a good mechanical substitute for brute force either.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

actually I would say that is even a plus point. If it normally only communicates via telepathy, there is a real reason why the SBGHs are surprised that it can talk. (see Section 2b: Abilities, Speech in the OP)

Oh, shoot, you're absolutely right. Yeah, scratch that remark.

[lothos]

Brain damage.

I don't think that phrase has ever applied more literally to any creature.......
:-)

EDIT - Actually I'd like to suggest something else - maybe his infantile behaviour and lack of knowledge about Illithid society are simply a result of him being an "Infant Elder Brain", even though that sounds like a contradiction. There's no information in Lords of Madness about the reproduction cycle of elder brains. I haven't found any in any other source.

There's no evidence either way, but what I imagine happening is either that the Elder Brains never reproduce at all, or that they in some way "bud off" a "child" elder brain. We know that they can produce "Brain Golems" which are bits of their tissue that obey their mental commands and wander around doing stuff for the elder brain. The creation of those is described as the elder brain budding off a small portion of it's mass to make the brain golem. I could imagine that if they wanted to, they could bud off a "child" the same way. Now that's definitely not supported by any source, it's just my speculation.

However I don't think it's impossible to believe that if Rich had decided that MitD was an elder brain child, that he could have decided "Well, I'm just going to fill in some gaps in the life cycle of this creature and assume that there's some way they have children, whatever that way is".

I could then believe that this might account for the behaviour of MitD..

Although of course, the low strength and lack of 2 eyes are still such a serious problem that we can probably conclude that MitD is not an elder brain.

Cheers.

[SavageWombat]

I don't remember where I remember this from, but I think the illithid grow an elder brain from something, by feeding it more brains.

[lothos]

Hey,
Just one more thing. I decided to just read some random articles about elder brains while I was waiting for a server to reboot at work.

I was reading this article: http://www.lomion.de/cmm/eldebrai.php
About halfway down, in the section on "Combat", there is this passage:

If death is imminent, an elder brain relinquishes its hold on the Prime Material Plane and withdraws completely into the Astral Plane, where the bulk of its mass resides. Once it transports itself in this way, an elder brain loses its anchor to the prime and becomes trapped on the Astral Plane – a rogue creature without ties to its community. It is uncertain what becomes of a rogue elder brain; however, illithid communities that lose their elder brain swiftly fall apart.

Look, I know there's still the issue of eyes and the low strength, but as a really crazy idea, what if MitD was a Rouge Elder brain. Because he lost his ties to the illithid community, he lost his memory of what he was and all his powers... then somehow ended up in a Jungle... Doesn't really address who his "Dad" is I know.

But it also might explain how he knows what the Astral plane is like.

I don't know if this online source is based on an officially published source, or if it did, when such a source was available. However if Rich did use this source as the basis for MitD being in the Astral Plane, it wouldn't have needed to be available in 2004, only recently....

It's probably not relevant, but I thought I'd just mention it as a crazy idea.

[brian 333]

I always assumed Elder Brains were what happened to an ancient Illithid which had no way to reach his community's Elder Brain. Basically as the Mind Flayer grows older its body grows weaker, but its mental capacity, especially its psionic power, continues to grow. Eventually, desiring to merge with an Elder Brain but having no access to one, it creates a pool into which those Mind Flayers under its control toss brains and it lives there while its body atrophies and its brain undergoes metamorphosis to become the new Elder Brain.

Having looked for the information due to this topic, I cannot find it online, and I no longer have access to my ancient Underdark modules, (stupid little brothers with sticky paws...) I can only conclude that this concept comes from long nights of dungeon delving and conversations about the how and why of things, and so, while I will continue to consider this a possible method, I will not consider it either canon or the only method possible for the reproduction of Elder Brains.

[b_jonas]

I have a new candidate I'd like to propose for consideration - The Psionic Version of the Illithid Elder Brain.

1. There's no reason to believe it has any eyes. The description doesn’t say it does NOT have eyes, but it doesn’t seem to have a face. The description suggests it's a brain with tentacles.

I do think an Elder Brain has eyes. It's a brain afterall, so it would have the two eyes attached to the brain still functional. The Elder Brain is created from the brain of a squid thingy, which seems to have eyes even in OotS.

However, how would an Illithid Elder Brain deal with the lawyers? Isn't it still product identity and its name trademarked and whatever?

But there is one factor that has been left out of the Illithid equation which is that no form of Mind Flayer has rainforest as its preferred habitat,

Remember strip #564? "Have you ever read an encounter table? Nothing surprises me anymore." "I once fought 1d3 dire camels in a swamp. No joke."

[Bird]

However, how would an Illithid Elder Brain deal with the lawyers? Isn't it still product identity and its name trademarked and whatever?

I won't/can't comment on what is product identity or trademarked. I will only provide the observation that the Giant sells a certain t-shirt at cafepress with a recognizable creature on it, which is referred to in the shirt description as a "squidyface monster."

[Crusher]

The fluff all seems very workable to me. If a rogue Elder Brain got stuck on the Astral Plane and then somehow budded off an offspring it would fit perfectly. Also, I think its a good fit for the Circus and Escape scenes, and its defenses are probably adequate.

Unfortunately, we're still back to the "punching" part of the Tower Scene. As GW notes, Telekinetic pushing or a 13 STR don't really seem like good answers. Which is a shame, because its actually pretty good other than that. And possibly the whole "has to live in a special puddle" thing, if that's a real problem.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And possibly the whole "has to live in a special puddle" thing, if that's a real problem.

There's a reason he likes stew...

That said, we know MitD has a tongue, and eyes, neiher of which a disembodied brain is likely to have, although we did see at one point a brain with a bird's beak, IIRC (could someone find me the link?)

Grey Wolf

[Bird]

There's a reason he likes stew...

That said, we know MitD has a tongue, and eyes, neiher of which a disembodied brain is likely to have, although we did see at one point a brain with a bird's beak, IIRC (could someone find me the link?)

Grey Wolf

Not sure if you mean a specific link, but you're describing a grell.

[b_jonas]

That said, we know MitD has a tongue, and eyes, neiher of which a disembodied brain is likely to have, although we did see at one point a brain with a bird's beak, IIRC (could someone find me the link?)

I still think a disembodied brain is likely to have eyes. But you're right, the MitD has teeth that make a bite mark, which seems pretty impossible for a brain.

Update: Bird: nice observation, yeah, with that squid thingy on the shirt.