Dreamscarred Press Introduces: Akashic Mysteries

[stack]

Bullrushing only grants the special AOO the first time it is successful each round, so you can't chain multiple vital strikes. You can still use quick bullrush to get your full attack routine in, but as you observed, fury is a problem there anyhow due to the natural attack mechanics. Maybe a clause making the AOO only apply when making the check as a standard or as part of a charge, taking quick bullrush out of the equation?

[Ssalarn]

Bullrushing only grants the special AOO the first time it is successful each round, so you can't chain multiple vital strikes. You can still use quick bullrush to get your full attack routine in, but as you observed, fury is a problem there anyhow due to the natural attack mechanics. Maybe a clause making the AOO only apply when making the check as a standard or as part of a charge, taking quick bullrush out of the equation?

That's an excellent idea stack. I'll make a note to add that verbage while I'm polishing up the Daevic. Thanks for the help guys, you've been awesome!

[stack]

Should stalker tabi qualify for dimensional agility? It would require a special callout.

[PsyBomb]

That's an excellent idea stack. I'll make a note to add that verbage while I'm polishing up the Daevic. Thanks for the help guys, you've been awesome!

The other possibility is to take a page out of the Eidolon book, and add a note to Wrath limiting your natural attacks to half your character/class level per round (lifting the limit at 18 or 20). Also forces build variety, since you won't be able to just stack attacks.

[stack]

The other possibility is to take a page out of the Eidolon book, and add a note to Wrath limiting your natural attacks to half your character/class level per round (lifting the limit at 18 or 20). Also forces build variety, since you won't be able to just stack attacks.

If you limit only natural attacks form veils, then you encourage fishing for attacks form other sources (races, dips, powers, etc). The end result for an optimized build doesn't really change much, it just gets less elegant. If you cap total natural attacks, then you are at a disadvantage in some respects to other natural attack builds that are not constrained by such limits, which will encourage NA builds to avoid dipping daevic (wrath) like the plague. The cap would probably have to be written into the base class as well, otherwise you can load up on attacks while using another passion and not be so encumbered (though not getting any of the bullrush bonuses, unless you went justice and the limit was only on fury, though you still wouldn't get the pounce bit). Something to consider if you want to go this route. I think just cutting out the chaining of the super-AOO with a normal attack routine is cleaner, but I would since it was my suggestion <shrug>.

[Ssalarn]

Thanks for the input guys. Great suggestions from both of you, I'll be taking a look at both of them and seeing what is going to be easiest to run and understand. I suspect that Fury is going to get a few tweaks to spread this issue out and make it not an issue.

One thing I think I'm going to do is move full blown Pounce to 11th level, so that it comes online closer to the point where everyone else is unlocking it. 6th level may end up being something like 2 natural attacks + 1 rend or rake if you have it.

[PsyBomb]

Thanks for the input guys. Great suggestions from both of you, I'll be taking a look at both of them and seeing what is going to be easiest to run and understand. I suspect that Fury is going to get a few tweaks to spread this issue out and make it not an issue.

One thing I think I'm going to do is move full blown Pounce to 11th level, so that it comes online closer to the point where everyone else is unlocking it. 6th level may end up being something like 2 natural attacks + 1 rend or rake if you have it.

Could work. Just remember the reference point: Beast Totem Barbarians unlock full Pounce at 10th, and theirs is not triggered. I consider that a fair trade if we're talking about one that can potentially be chained into, but if not then it is important to be making a significant number of attacks by that point.

[stack]

I occasionally think back to some of the more unique flowshaper shapes; some would be fun as veils. There was one that gave the web monster ability...hmm. I could see a whole set of veils designed to grab monster abilities normally hard to attain on PCs.

[Ssalarn]

I occasionally think back to some of the more unique flowshaper shapes; some would be fun as veils. There was one that gave the web monster ability...hmm. I could see a whole set of veils designed to grab monster abilities normally hard to attain on PCs.

It's fairly funny you should mention that... I've got plans. This time around we wanted to avoid anything that looked too much like the Totemist or original classes, but once we've really established the new classes as their own thing I'm looking at treading a little closer to some of those ideas of really emulating monster abilities with an archetype or PrC (or even a couple) that look a bit more like a veilweaver you'd expect to seeing coming out of Xendrik or the Mwangi Expanse. There's a lot of fun animal-themed veils that didn't get considered for this release (and a few that did) and a set of spider themed veils that include the ability to use webs sounds like an awesome addition.

[squiggit]

a set of spider themed veils that include the ability to use webs sounds like an awesome addition.

Sort of funny. I shared the playtest document with some people I know who are into Pathfinder today and when looking at the daevic and guru they all thought that Akashic veils were a great way to make your character a superhero without using standard magic...

[Ssalarn]

Sort of funny. I shared the playtest document with some people I know who are into Pathfinder today and when looking at the daevic and guru they all thought that Akashic veils were a great way to make your character a superhero without using standard magic...

I suppose that means I have to come up with enough veils to let a party put together an entire Avengers team without actually violating any copyrights... I'm pretty sure you can already do Thor, Hulk, Wolverine, and a few updates will give us Captain America, so we need some second-stringers like Spiderman, Hawkeye... Wasp maybe?

[squiggit]

Hawkeye...

So first I thought 'marksman is close' and then I thought "Hawkeye in the comics tends to use lots of silly arrows" and then I thought...

An ranged combat themed akashic class/archetype/veil package (akashic quivers?) who has the ability to spend essence to put special secondary effects on ammunition or throwing weapons would be kind of awesome. Take two points of essence burn and your next arrow forces a fort save or blind against all targets in a 15ft range. Take one point of essence burn to knock the next target you hit back 10 feet. Entangle, slow, sleep...

or so on. This is me just rambling about ideas though at this point.

[PsyBomb]

I suppose that means I have to come up with enough veils to let a party put together an entire Avengers team without actually violating any copyrights... I'm pretty sure you can already do Thor, Hulk, Wolverine, and a few updates will give us Captain America, so we need some second-stringers like Spiderman, Hawkeye... Wasp maybe?

Hawkeye is a Longbow Akasin Guru with Eyes of the Hawkguard and the standard feats through Rapid and Many, plus Far Shot and a Distance weapon. Full attacks at over a half-mile away with Gentle Touch at only a -10. Already built him for a potential damage sim, and he can still get really sneaky if need be. Then again, Perception at that distance is PAINFUL

[Crazysaneman]

Then again, Perception at that distance is PAINFUL

Potions of scry?

[PsyBomb]

Potions of scry?

I actually meant the other way around :)

Anyway, searching for more potential break points. Really can't find any serious ones for now, just figuring out how to get the most out of Wrath shenanigans. I've stopped my Fury sims until you decide on a fix, Justice is fine (love the roll of thunder effect when you toss out a G.Vital on an Armory of the Conqueror enhanced weapon)

[stack]

Yeah, starting with powerful build and a d12 or 2d6 base weapon, then stacking armory of the conqueror with the vital strike line is fun. The build I linked above rolls 8D6+1.5STR on a successful bullrush.

Thoughts on the idea of more animal-themed veils in the future - it occurs to me that for a melee type the daevic framework is strong, but has fluff issues since you would probably want to get away from the extreme emotion outsiders. So an archetype or alternate class that instead binds with spirits of nature could allow completely different fluff and make design room for a pile of new veils to be added to the daevic list. Existing daevics could use them, but only in a limited way since they wouldn't be on their passion lists. I'm thinking spirits like beast, plant, maybe even broaden it to undead and others. I propose the name atavist, but I suppose that would sound too close to Tatvaist.

Then for a support/buffer/secondary healer, a shaman capable of using the new veils but with limited veils shaped, but with the ability to form a collective and invest in collective members to give bonuses, eventually getting the ability to share veils across the collective. Getting and sharing wildshape would also go along with it. Probably have to be its own class. I might write some ideas up if I ever get a chance.

Ed-shaman is taken, needed a better name anyhow.

[PsyBomb]

Just for fun, my naked (Read: no WBL spent) level-20 sim for Fury while under the current chain-combo description:

Sobek Daevic (Wrath, Fury)

Feats: 1) Power Attack, 3) Chakra Power (4 essence), 5) Extra Essence, 7) Improved Bull Rush, 9) Quick Bull Rush, 11) Expanded Capacity, 13) Twin Veil (Hand), 15) Combat Reflexes, 17) Will of the Daeva, 19) Immortal Essence (open feat, really)

Essence Pool: 15

Veils:
Passion (7 essence): Wrath Claws (Bound), Daevic Essence, Horns of the Minotaur, Armbands of the Irked Elephant (Bound)
Non-Passion: Sea-Drake's Talons (Bound), Embrace of the Old One (bound to Shoulder), Whirlpool Lash, Forcestrike Knuckles (4 essence)

Relevant stats: 22 Str, 12 Cha (naked and no WBL yet, remember)

Bull Rush: +44=20(BAB)+6(Str)+4(CP)+14(Irked Elephant)
All Primary attacks get bonus damage: +48 damage=6(Str)+12(PA)+4(CP)+16(Daevic Essence)+10(Forcestrike)
All Secondary attacks get bonus damage: +39 damage=3(Str)+6(PA)+4(CP)+16(Daevic Essence)+10(Forcestrike)

Primary:
2x Wrath Claws: 1d8+55 (7 from Essence)
2x Talons: 1d4+48
Bite: 1d6+48

Secondary:
Tail: 1d6+39
Horns: 1d4+53 (14 from Essence)
2x Tentacle: 1d4+39

Other:
Armbands: 1d6+50 (assumes they count as a Natural Attack, and that PA/CP help it)

Attack sequence: All attacks other than one Talon go off, the Talon turns into a Bull Rush via QBR. That one turns into a full attack, plus one additional smack from the Armbands of the Irked Elephant. 18 total attacks. Damage total is 4 Claws, 3 Talons, 2 Bites, 2 Tail Slaps, 2 Gores, and 4 Tentacles, plus one Irked Elephant slam.

4d8+5d6+9d4+850. Deals 868-948 damage, average 908 before applying WBL (notables include the Amulet of Natural Attacks, Strength belt, Inherent bonuses, and UMD'ing a size-increasing effect)

Factoring in WBL will take me a good while, but this is actually in the same general vicinity as Ubercharger builds. When I was going into it, I'd thought it would be much higher. This also suffers from the fact that you are making 18 attack rolls plus a Bull Rush to make it happen, which is enough to start getting into statistical certainties. In other words, most rounds will result in 50-65% of this unless the target is particularly low in AC and CMD (in which case, this is probably HUGELY overkill). As well, Damage Reduction is going to ruin your day, being literally 18 times as effective against you as the default.

What it boils down to is that the sub-branch's damage WITH CHAINING is actually appropriate in the 18-20 range. The trick is going to be smoothing it out to that point.

[Eldest]

So quick question, is there something on a crafter vizier that lets them ignore spell requirements to create stuff? I'm not seeing anything of the sort, which is sort of bad since I'm running through the pathfinder items and most of them have spell requirements as well.
Of course it's also entirely possible I just didn't see it in the class. I have done that before.

[Ssalarn]

Hawkeye is a Longbow Akasin Guru with Eyes of the Hawkguard and the standard feats through Rapid and Many, plus Far Shot and a Distance weapon.

You are absolutely correct. So, Hawkeye's good to go.... What Avenger can we not make out of the akashic classes?


Also, Jeremy had to devote pretty much all of his time to Path of War so he'd have hardcovers to sell at GenCon, so the Vizier will be coming out after GenCon instead of just before like I was hoping. Still soon, just not tomorrow soon.

[PsyBomb]

So quick question, is there something on a crafter vizier that lets them ignore spell requirements to create stuff? I'm not seeing anything of the sort, which is sort of bad since I'm running through the pathfinder items and most of them have spell requirements as well.
Of course it's also entirely possible I just didn't see it in the class. I have done that before.

It's actually something that Pathfinder itself changed. For many items, you don't actually need the prerequisites (other than the appropriate crafting feat) to be able to craft them. It just increases the Spellcraft or associated crafting DC by 5 for each one you don't have. Since the base DC is 5+caster level for EVERYTHING, arranging to have a +10 to your modifier other than Ranks (Class Skill bonus, INT bonus, circumstance/insight bonuses.... not hard) plus keeping Spellcraft maxed (which you should anyway if you're crafting) means you can still automatically craft anything you're missing one prerequisite for without bothering to roll. As long as it isn't something like a Ring of Elemental Command, which has 7 prerequisite spells, you'll be able to craft it unassisted in most cases.

You cannot make Potions, Spell Trigger (wands and staves), or Spell Completion (scrolls) items without the base spell, though you can get these from another source (such as a wand, scroll, or buddy). The Vizier automatically gains Wondrous Items, Rings, and Staves (this last he can't craft unassisted), but other than what was listed he can make anything, given that he takes the feat.

Given a permissive DM, though, having Craft Wondrous Item can chain itself into spells to use on other magic items (say, a use-activated Scribe's Quill of Cure Light Wounds, 2000g by custom item pricing, which you use to label the bottle as part of the potion crafting process, thus casting it into the creation). Many won't allow this, though, so clear it first.

EDIT:

You are absolutely correct. So, Hawkeye's good to go.... What Avenger can we not make out of the akashic classes?


Also, Jeremy had to devote pretty much all of his time to Path of War so he'd have hardcovers to sell at GenCon, so the Vizier will be coming out after GenCon instead of just before like I was hoping. Still soon, just not tomorrow soon.

Let's go through the list from the movies.

Captain America: Human Daevic (Dominion: Benevolence, not sure), going through feat chains to Shield Slam. Has a +1 Throwing and Returning Adamantine Large Shield. Dipped the Akashic Monk for unarmed strike and veils, also has a Modern Firearm. Rolled CRAZY stats :)

Iron Man: Vizier (Crafter), took Craft Magical Arms and Armor as well. He's a Human that uses a flight veil or item. Big abuser of WBL tricks. VERY high Int and Cha.

The Hulk: Human Daevic (Wrath: Fury), binds Stone Giant's Girdle to Blood (Body at 20). Refluffed Wrath Claws to be slams instead of slashing. Has high Int.

Thor: Daevic (Wrath: Justice), took Shape Veil for Storm Gauntlets. Armory of the Conquerer plus an Artifact Warhammer round it out.

Hawkeye: Discussed above, he's a Longbow-focused Guru (Akasin), uses a Composite Longbow with at least +1 and Distance.

Black Widow: Human Guru (Sineater) with maxxed-out ranks of social, Stealth, and Trapfinder skills, keeps Stalker's Tabi bound to Belt. Probably has absurd Cha (plus good Int and Dex), Weapon Finesse, and Deadly Agility. Buys tons of limited-use Wonderous Items for niche situations. Makes sure to research enemies during downtime in order to shape appropriate Veils. Dipped a couple levels of Daevic (Desire) in order to use Essence of the Succubus and Waistband of the Wealthy. May or may not have Shape Veil (Curiass of Confidence).

I don't think I'm missing anything from the movies, but the comic Avengers have had about a quarter of the Marvel Universe cycle through them. That would take a while.

[PsyBomb]

Man, it's been quiet in here...

Anyway, the release of the ACG has shaken up the formulas a bit. I don't have access to the physical book, so I have to rely on what I see online or that gets posted to PRD or d20pfsrd, but I'll apply it to analysis and the guides as I see them.

Pummeling and Jabbing Styles, in particular, has provided a major increase in the capabilities of the Sineater (though this is difficult to calculate precisely). The Hybrids also often make good dips, and their abilities work as the parent versions and are called out as such, so will frequently have the Akashic augmentations apply.

[stack]

Yeah, I think Ssalarn has been pretty busy and the boards are consumed with the ACG.

[Ssalarn]

Sorry for the quiet time guys.
In addition to having the soon-to-be-in-laws over, the ACG has thrown such a big curveball that I've been really busy trying to gauge the impact and what that means for the Akashic classes. There are some game-changers in the newest core book, and they impact balance at a lot of levels of play.

The good news: I was erring up just a little bit anyways. Incarnum was pretty widely acknowledged as being very underpowered, and I wanted to sever that little bit of legacy with some strong, potent options. As most of you know, I was aiming for solid, unquestionable Tier 3 with maybe one class peeking into Tier 2 for this release. With the ACG out, the Tier 3 field just got a lot bigger, and the Tier 1/2 fields expanded as well, so I think we're going to be pretty good moving forward and won't need to adjust much. Honestly, I might even add back in a few veils I pulled because they were too powerful, like the Spell Eater veil that allowed the vizer to be a fairly accomplished counter-speller. Considering the existence of the Arcanist and Exploiter wizard archetype, I'm now feeling like that's not an issue.

Basically though, the ACG changed the playing field, and I've been trying to determine how much, and also how much that really impacts our materials. I've also been taking a really close look and seeing if maybe there aren't some archetype and PrC ideas that we've been working that maybe won't be better realized using one of the new chassis'. The Hunter and Skald in particular seem like classes where we could exploit some really fun synergies.

I've also been working on adding akashic favored class bonuses and alternate racial traits to a different DSP product dedicated to a bunch of new hybrid races (and editing to make sure there is minimal overlap with the core akashic races) and that has eaten into my time a little bit.

Jeremy is working on finalizing the Vizier for .pdf and subscription release ASAP now that his GenCon-related activities have been mostly wrapped, and he mentioned over on the Paizo boards that he'd love to have a physical copy of Akashic Mysteries to sell at the GenCon booth next year. I'll be rolling out the delayed updates for the Guru, Daevic, and Supplemental materials throughout the week, with the goal being a Guru release as close as we can get it to exactly one month following the Vizier.

Thanks again guys!

[PsyBomb]

Awesome, and congrats.

A lot of the biggest game-changers aren't obvious, and since I don't have the book I'm going off of what I hear and what goes on d20pfsrd. However, one of the big ones is that Paizo is pushing Teamwork feats for the Hunter and Inquisitor... which has an interesting impact on the Seer Vizier and Benevolence Daevic. More to come

[Renegade Paladin]

A bit off-topic, but I was in a couple of Paizo's seminars on upcoming releases on Saturday afternoon at Gen Con, and Jason Bulmahn said, on the topic of psionics during the Q&A, that they thought they couldn't do better than Dreamscarred with Ultimate Psionics and told everyone to go and buy that if they want 3.5-style psionics in their games. So congratulations guys, you've apparently made such an impression that they're making your sales pitch for you.

[Ssalarn]

Awesome, and congrats.

A lot of the biggest game-changers aren't obvious, and since I don't have the book I'm going off of what I hear and what goes on d20pfsrd. However, one of the big ones is that Paizo is pushing Teamwork feats for the Hunter and Inquisitor... which has an interesting impact on the Seer Vizier and Benevolence Daevic. More to come

The growth of Teamwork feats and accessibility is a big one. The Hunter is one of the most powerful classes during the "PFS levels" because of them, and now there's a lot higher chance of having an entire coordinated team in a way that as previously only possible in much more limited ways.

@Renegade Paladin

Yeah, it's pretty cool. JB recommended us at PaizoCon as well, and Erik Mona specifically endorsed us in an interview during PAX '13, so we definitely appreciate their support.

[squiggit]

You are absolutely correct. So, Hawkeye's good to go.... What Avenger can we not make out of the akashic classes?
.

Psybomb has it covered. Outside the movies the only 'standard' avengers you're missing are giant man who... I don't think you could make him since his whole gimmick is going from fine to gargantuan at-will. And Wasp, who flies and turns fine at will while shooting lasers out of her hands. Also if you're looking at comics/games/etc. hawkeye falls short a bit since part of his gimmick (but never really done in the films) has always included a lot of trick arrows.

I was aiming for solid, unquestionable Tier 3 with maybe one class peeking into Tier 2 for this release.

I wouldn't mind if the Pharaoh was Tier 2.

Actually that would be an interesting challenge, building a functional tier 2 who doesn't rely on traditional high end spellcasting gimmicks.

[PsyBomb]

Psybomb has it covered. Outside the movies the only 'standard' avengers you're missing are giant man who... I don't think you could make him since his whole gimmick is going from fine to gargantuan at-will. And Wasp, who flies and turns fine at will while shooting lasers out of her hands. Also if you're looking at comics/games/etc. hawkeye falls short a bit since part of his gimmick (but never really done in the films) has always included a lot of trick arrows.


I wouldn't mind if the Pharaoh was Tier 2.

Actually that would be an interesting challenge, building a functional tier 2 who doesn't rely on traditional high end spellcasting gimmicks.

The trick arrows on Hawkeye are actually the easiest part, just enchant batches of Durables differently with an Efficient Quiver (seen in mechanical form in The Avengers). ~50 standards plus 3-5 each of specialties that he loads up depending on what he thinks he'll face. Painful on the WBL, murderous on the target.

Making a T2 that isn't a spellcaster is nearly a contradiction of terms, but let's run down the requirements:

1) Must, with decent optimization, be able to break open game worlds.
2) Must be versatile enough to deal with nearly any threat solo. The degree to which this is true is what separates T1 from T2

The three base scenarios presented by JaronK are slaying a dragon in his lair, dealing with a seige, and court intrigue. In order to be considered for T2, the Pharaoh would need to be reasonably able to deal with all three more-or-less solo (effectively, he is no longer a "contributer", but rather the main drive to which others may aspire to contribute). The original thing that Ssalarn gave us to look at had a few balance concerns, but as it stood would be able to deal with the Dragon and Seige scenarios out of hand (depending on the maneuvers, which I can't quite recall off-hand) and the court intrigue with reasonable spending of traits and skills. Probable T2 material, with sufficient polishing.

[Ssalarn]

Psybomb has it covered. Outside the movies the only 'standard' avengers you're missing are giant man who... I don't think you could make him since his whole gimmick is going from fine to gargantuan at-will. And Wasp, who flies and turns fine at will while shooting lasers out of her hands. Also if you're looking at comics/games/etc. hawkeye falls short a bit since part of his gimmick (but never really done in the films) has always included a lot of trick arrows.


I wouldn't mind if the Pharaoh was Tier 2.

Actually that would be an interesting challenge, building a functional tier 2 who doesn't rely on traditional high end spellcasting gimmicks.

I don't know if the Pharaoh will quite hit Tier 2, but flight, counter-spelling, spell protection, healing, direct damage, and control aspects will all be available, and he does have veil access and an essence pool, so....

I'm thinking high Tier 3, but he'll probably be eye-balling Tier 2. The biggest barrier is the more focused nature of disciplines and his limited veil access. The completed version will change all of his abilities to be investment based instead of keying off his essence pool which should smooth him out a bit in play and keep him more consistently balanced.

[PsyBomb]

The Wasp: Suqur Vizier (Crafter) using an item of Reduce Person. Hand Cannons are main offense and kept bound (eventually doing the Storm Gauntlet Twin Veil trick), keeps wings fully invested.

And yeah, Mr Pym is basically not possible via Akasha.