Would this be tier 0?

[Jeff the Green]

No actually: It's never been clear what Tier a Spirit Shaman is. I've seen several quite long threads on this question and people normally split 50-50 between T1 and T2, with a few outsiders claiming lower tiers. Now I don't want to derail this thread into re-hashing this debate but this question is part of what led me to consider this view of the higher tiers

Oh, no I wasn't saying that it is Tier 2, just that there are good arguments for putting it there (which may or may be countered by better arguments for Tier 1). Wu Jen I think is more solidly Tier 2. Yes, it has the spirit binding line, but DN has planar binding. It has a few broken 9th-level spells, but not many more than Sorcerer or Psion and its lower-level spell selection is much less versatile than the things a sorcerer can pull off (e.g. no shadow conjuration and kin).

And even if that still isn't tier 2 by virtue of its few very powerful spells, I'm pretty sure I could come up with a list that would make it tier 2 because it has exactly one game-breaking spell at each level and merely solid ones aside from that.

[SinsI]

Oh, no I wasn't saying that it is Tier 2, just that there are good arguments for putting it there (which may or may be countered by better arguments for Tier 1). Wu Jen I think is more solidly Tier 2. Yes, it has the spirit binding line, but DN has planar binding. It has a few broken 9th-level spells, but not many more than Sorcerer or Psion and its lower-level spell selection is much less versatile than the things a sorcerer can pull off (e.g. no shadow conjuration and kin).

And even if that still isn't tier 2 by virtue of its few very powerful spells, I'm pretty sure I could come up with a list that would make it tier 2 because it has exactly one game-breaking spell at each level and merely solid ones aside from that.

It depends on the power level of the Wu Jen's spell list - if it can be used to solve any problem, it is Tier 1. If it can't, it is Tier 3.
I'd say Tier 3, since she is missing a lot of things 9h level spells can do.
Same with Spirit Shaman.

A class can be Tier 2 only if it has the flexibility to be built (using its class features) to solve any problem. Fixed list casters rarely have that.

Here's a class for evaluation against the 'Tier 0' rubrick.
So, Tier 0?

Looks good

[Flickerdart]

It depends on the power level of the Wu Jen's spell list - if it can be used to solve any problem, it is Tier 1. If it can't, it is Tier 3.

Well, let's give the classic challenges a shot - if the Wu Jen is T1, it should be able to solve the encounters with only a few spells, or otherwise outperform a lower-tier class specialized in that role. From memory, they were:

Pass through a dragon's lair and slay the dragon in single combat.
The wizard's benchmarks here are Invisibility, Silence, and Alter Self-type spells to acquire necessary movement types while staying undetectable. Once they find the dragon, Shivering Touch makes short work of it.

Wu Jen gets Alter Self (and its big brother, Shapechange), and Invisibility, but not Silence. They do eventually get Ethereal Jaunt, though, and can use Spirit Self to scout undetected. They don't have Shivering Touch, but an array of protective spells like Displacement and Heart of Water should see them through while they attack with Entangling Scarf, Creeping Darkness, and various other really nice debuffs. Wu Jen can use Spirit Binding to bring along elementals keyed to the dragon's weakness, too. They're not as good as the wizard here, but only because Shivering Touch is ridiculous. I'd say they do about as well as a druid would. Body Outside Body and Giant Size both make appearances here as hilarious Wu Jen-only options that really give them an edge. Surelife lets them become immune to the dragon's breath weapon.

Help an army defend an outpost against an approaching invasion.
Spirit binding, Animate Dead, and summoning really shines here. Stockpiling fire shuriken is also handy for equipping your men. Ice Blast is great against multiple weak foes, Ghost Light makes them flee in terror.

Make contact with an underground resistance and make them trust you.
Secret Signs is amazing for secretive communication. Your standard Charms and Dominates happen here, too. I'm really bored of reading this spell list, now, though. Damn thing is really long.

Seems to me that Wu Jen wreck these things just as well as any wizard.

[Jeff the Green]

It depends on the power level of the Wu Jen's spell list - if it can be used to solve any problem, it is Tier 1. If it can't, it is Tier 3.
I'd say Tier 3, since she is missing a lot of things 9h level spells can do.
Same with Spirit Shaman.

A class can be Tier 2 only if it has the flexibility to be built (using its class features) to solve any problem. Fixed list casters rarely have that.



Looks good

I thought it was primarily about the number of campaign-/encounter-wrecking things a given build of the class could do. Sorcerer has a couple because his list of known spells is short. Wu Jen has a couple because her class list is short and doesn't contain a number of the versatility tricks a sorcerer can pull off.

[SinsI]

I thought it was primarily about the number of campaign-/encounter-wrecking things a given build of the class could do. Sorcerer has a couple because his list of known spells is short. Wu Jen has a couple because her class list is short and doesn't contain a number of the versatility tricks a sorcerer can pull off.

It is also about ability to solve a particular campaign. If you can solve anything using one build, you are T1. If for any given problem you can make a build that solves it, it is T2. If there are things you can't solve at all using class abilities, it is T3 or worse.
I.e. let's ask wizard, sorcerer and Wu Jen to determine what exactly happened in an area.
Wizard casts Hindsight and gives you the anwer, so he is T1. You can build a sorcerer to know Hindsight, so he is T2. Wu Jen has no spells capable of doing that, so he is T3 or worse.

Well, let's give the classic challenges a shot - if the Wu Jen is T1, it should be able to solve the encounters with only a few spells, or otherwise outperform a lower-tier class specialized in that role. From memory, they were:

Seems to me that Wu Jen wreck these things just as well as any wizard.

To be a T1, you have to be able to solve any encounter. Classic encounters are low difficulty (any of them can be solved by Wish, so Wu Jen can do them no problem).

But it is easy to see that since Wu Jen has a limited list of 9th level spells, he can't do anything to problems that require 9th level spells he doesn't have: the country with him is covered with antimagic field created by an artifact? No Mordenkainen's Disjunction, so Wu Jen acts as a glorified commoner...

[Flickerdart]

To be a T1, you have to be able to solve any encounter. Classic encounters are low difficulty (any of them can be solved by Wish, so Wu Jen can do them no problem).

Wish isn't an option for the majority of the game, and doesn't really play into the tier system all that much. You might notice that the Druid and every Cleric without the Magic domain don't have Disjunction either, and both are T1s, so your example isn't relevant.

[ddude987]

It is also about ability to solve a particular campaign. If you can solve anything using one build, you are T1. If for any given problem you can make a build that solves it, it is T2. If there are things you can't solve at all using class abilities, it is T3 or worse.
I.e. let's ask wizard, sorcerer and Wu Jen to determine what exactly happened in an area.
Wizard casts Hindsight and gives you the anwer, so he is T1. You can build a sorcerer to know Hindsight, so he is T2. Wu Jen has no spells capable of doing that, so he is T3 or worse.

You're example is making an assumption that the only way to solve this particular encounter is the spell hindsight. When checking for ways to solve encounters, general encounters are proposed followed by multiple solutions. Its like if I said there is an encounter where an npc will do 100 damage unmigigatable damage to every PC before they are allowed to combat him. Thus the encounter can only be won if you have 100 or more hp right? Guess fighter is tier 1.

[Piggy Knowles]

Ninth-level spells are a poor benchmark regardless. A sorcerer with shapechange or gate as a 9th-level spell known is functionally tier one at that point. Heck, for that matter, so is a healer - gate spamming can be the answer to basically any possible scenario. Wu jens get shapechange at level 17, so even in this odd scenario where only hindsight will do, they can just turn into a black ethergaunt or something and cast it. But again, if we're basing tier off of what happens in the high levels, then a truenamer is arguably tier one.

What's more important to determining the tier of a class is what happens in levels 5-15, in my opinion. Things don't really break down quite as much at that point.

In any case, a wu jen is probably tier one, and might be tier three. There's no possible way I can see it as tier two though. And none of this gets us any closer to determining whether or not a tier zero is necessary (spoiler alert: probably not) and if so, what it is.