[EMPIRE!] The International Council Summit

[QuintonBeck]

"You admit that at times a leader warrants deposition yet in the same breath demand any who would seek to do so, even in an event where it were deemed necessary, should pay for such an act with their life as if it were a crime? Would it not be a better course to allow a body to exist that might be petitioned by those people who felt oppressed such that they might receive assistance and forgiveness should their complaints be deemed reasonable?" Aluic glanced at the other Westerner who had come in with the Ri Chugang but had so far remained quiet.

[WaylanderX]

Wayve stood up, hands raised.

"If I may interject, it may be that we are going about this the wrong way. From my point of view, what happens in a certain nation must stay in a nation, for every law in every country is bound to be different. And in the case of Tupelo, there are two sides of the story indeed. Yes, it was regicide, but he also ruled unjust and acted like the tyrant he was. It would be unwise to keep pointing fingers at one another and bombarding others with a biased point of view. From past experiences, I can say that would lead to a long path, difficult and treacherous to walk upon. My grandfather, the Shinguard Marius Earthguard once said: "Those who are brave must compromise to accomodate for the craven". We can't lay our will upon one another just because they are unwilling to accept the best course of action. As such, I may have a proposal."

Wayve looked around the hall at all the rulers gathered there.

"Each interloper caught perpetrating in a country foreign to him or herself will be trailed by an international council, who weighs the severaty of the crime and punishes the criminal accordingly. In the case of regicide, the council will also take the actions of the deceased king into account to worsen or lessen the punishment. Of course, if the transgresion in question is considered more grave in one country than another, it might have consequences for the punishment given. As for the structure of the council, I would say that depends on the perpetrator. I would vote for a three person council per case: One hailing from the country in which the crime took place and two people hailing from two different countries neutral to the matter. This would not give the country in question total power, while keeping their point of view in tact. I would like to ask the rulers present in this room to voice their opinions on this idea."

[Rizban]

Earlier, in a Time Bubble

Wayve made a small, polite bow before asking his question.

"We in the north have heard rumours of a grand war raging within the Salterri Imperium, harming allies and enemies alike. What I wanted to ask is an impression of your side of the happenings, if you would so please. Learning from hostilities and war is a must if one wants to avert civil war from within."

"I do not believe war should ever be referred to as 'grand.' War is abominable. In short, my forebear had a series of serious crimes laid against him specifically and his family in general. The late Chief Hierarch Zanper Fidious spent several years trying to suppress the rumors of these crimes, until such time that proof of them arose. He tried to confront Hanyeo about them personally, but Hanyeo refused multiple attempts at communication. After Hanyeo confronted Zanper directly and demanded that Zanper recognize his divine right to make war on the whole world to bring it under his personal control, Zanper refused and fled to preserve his own life. He then laud public charges against Hanyeo, who rose an army from his own lands and the lands of our outer provinces to wage war against the Priory to suppress the "rebellion" that was nothing of the sort. We did not rebel, rather, we insisted only that the laws of the land be followed and that the will of Our Lady be divined. The ensuing battle saw many lives ended, but it was much less brutal than it might have been. The people did not truly wish to war with their own, with only the will of the late Qzare driving them into it.

Zhuang sought to take advantage of the situation, and much of the situation as seen by those in the north seems to be colored be his manufactured deceptions. He sent his own armies south, claiming some measure of legal right to do so based on his father once being Qzare, though his father had authored and signed pacts that neither he nor any of his offspring should have any claim to Imperium lands or titles. The two "sides" of the prior battle worked together in unison to repel the madman's armies. Furthermore, I was under the impression..."

Rongyao's attention drifts as Tailong enters the room. He quickly ducks away from the conversation to approach Tailong.

"I apologize. If you'll excuse me for a moment."

Shortly after Queen Amalia had opened the floor and begun the council summit, another delegation entered the hall. Noble metals and stones flashed on noble bodies, some dressed in flax and some in plate armor. The banners bore a smooth purple dragon on a white field alongside other banners that bore the Salterri white eagle on their golden cross and fields of blue and silver. The dark man heading the delegation wore his red hair long and bound and though his forearms and shins were covered in metal armor, the rest of him was dressed modestly, but with embroidery worthy of a noble, the same purple dragon on white snaking around on his torso, clad in silver flame. Beside him walked a swarthy woman with purple-black hair who wore pants rather than a dress, appearing as a gorgeous mixture of Jarr and Salterri culture.

"Please excuse us, honoured delegates," Tailong addressed them as he cast a quick look around and headed straight for empty seats he assumed were meant for them. "There was a delay in our travels caused by an illegal everlava trader. No need for concern, if I missed anything important you can always repeat it. Please," he raised his open palms at Aluic and Athelmere, whose voices he'd heard shortly before entering, "continue." And he seated himself, along with Ambrynn, a Salterri man in rich clothing and a hooded figure whose pale blue skin was cracked with yellow-white. Two banner-carriers in full plate stood behind them, their sword-sheaths empty.

Rushing up to Tailong just a little faster than appropriate for the decorum of the meeting, Rongyao wraps him in an unexpected bear hug.

"Tailong! My friend, it has been too long! I had hoped we could get together sooner, but the troubles with the northern threats to the Imperium and the ensuing chaos have been so time consuming."

---

Currently, at the Summit

"You admit that at times a leader warrants deposition yet in the same breath demand any who would seek to do so, even in an event where it were deemed necessary, should pay for such an act with their life as if it were a crime? Would it not be a better course to allow a body to exist that might be petitioned by those people who felt oppressed such that they might receive assistance and forgiveness should their complaints be deemed reasonable?" Aluic glanced at the other Westerner who had come in with the Ri Chugang but had so far remained quiet.

Rongyao clears his throat before speaking.
"What the representative of Ri Chugang is describing, albeit not very eloquently, is the Silver Mandate which the Imperium follows. In short, Our Lady grants the Qzare the right to rule based on his ability to govern well, fairly, and justly. The Silver Mandate is a contract between three parties: the Silver Lady, the Qzare, and the people of the Imperium. So long as the Qzare is competent, just, and pious, the Silver Mandate rests on his shoulders. Upon the Qzare's death, the Mandate transfers to one of his heirs, the best equipped mentally, physically, and spiritually becomes the next Qzare. Still, there is another aspect of the Mandate. Should the Qzare become tyrannical, corrupted, or grossly incompetent, the Mandate leaves him. Should his fallacies extend beyond himself to his family, the Mandate may abandon the entire dynasty. In such a case, it is up to the people, be they royal, noble, or common, to depose the Qzare and determine who best can lead the Imperium as the new Qzare, establishing a new dynasty should the Mandate have left the family or simply finding the next heir should it have left only the one ruler.

The catch is that those responsible for the deposition and death of a Qzare are still guilty of the crimes, no matter how justified their actions may be. To take these steps to obey the Silver Lady and follow the rules of the Mandate, one must be convicted enough and have enough faith in the rightness of their actions to be willing to lay down his life for it. In this way, the Mandate is not abused on the whim of the people. Those guilty remain guilty, even if what they do is for the good of the Imperium. We are a land of laws, and not even the Qzare is above the law."

Seeing other members of the Imperium about to speak up, Rongyao raises his hand to ask for them to pause so he might continue.

"As to the recent changes in the Imperium and the office of Qzare, I assure you that these laws are being followed. Though I have given a blanket pardon to those involved in the battle itself, I am unable and unwilling to grant a pardon to those who took part in the actual overthrow of the Qzare. Zanper Fidious died of his wounds from the Battle of the Mandate at Anaphorica, or else he would have stood trial. Though a great man, he has been recorded in the annals as a traitor. Additionally, the four Patriarchs directly involved in the plots have been removed from their positions and incarcerated. One has already received trial, been found guilty, and executed as a traitor. The other three shall be tried once the chaos resulting from the Triumvirate's invasion of our lands has been adequately settled and the rule of law properly restored.

But I digress. I am in agreement with the representatives of Ri Chugang. I do not believe that the Silver Mandate and the will of Our Lady could be appropriately followed in times of distress with an international body having the power to intervene and force the people to accept a ruler who does not bear the Mandate or to depose a ruler who does. While I do believe that a flourishing international community is beneficial to all involved, I do not see the benefits of creating a powerful governing body and subjecting the Imperium to it."

[QuintonBeck]

"A fair proposal for cases in which a foreigner attempts something against a leader of a nation or the nation itself, but it addresses not the issues of internal rebellion or revolution which has been all that has been seen in recent years. Tupelo rose from AQUA itself, Zhuang from the Triumvirate. While the Triumvirate was capable of arresting and trying Zhuang AQUA erupted into civil war when Tupelo was killed by a foreign power. Would this proposed court then bring the killers of Tuplelo to face trial alone? What if no foreign power had acted against Tupelo? Would he have then been allowed to take over in violent revolution?"

"It is a fine thing to close one's doors and demand each nation take care of its own problems unless another nation becomes involved, but such is not the action of a caring or wise man who would recognize that to do so invites the spread of that which is deemed undesirable into another or even his own country from lack of action taken at the origin."

[lt_murgen]

"I would like to ask the rulers present in this room to voice their opinions on this idea."

Opus spoke quietly and as dully as always, "In matters of foreign individuals acting in a given nation, I support the ideas you present. Allow that person to be brought here, to have their case heard in front of a group of three. If the person has fled, allow the offended nation to present their case. Allow the council of three to decide if the person should be returned to their homeland or face punishment in the offended nation. When the original blazing avatar was killed, nations went to war. How better had an organization existed to bring the truth of the assassination to light, and prevent so much bloodshed.

As for succession and internal laws, I agree with the representative from the Salterri Imperium. It is not for other nations to interfere with the succession practices of other nations.'

"It is a fine thing to close one's doors and demand each nation take care of its own problems unless another nation becomes involved, but such is not the action of a caring or wise man who would recognize that to do so invites the spread of that which is deemed undesirable into another or even his own country from lack of action taken at the origin."

A valid point. But one that touches back upon the sanctity of nations. When we heard the story of how the Duke Bloodfang of Sympol threw his own son, burning, of of a window, did we sanction him for his brutality? When Duke Ironfang returned and slew his father and seized the throne, did we intervene? No. Either we saw it as their way, and their right, or we simply thought the cost of intervention too high. Either way, the recognition of something as undesirable in one nation evidently does not invite the spread into other nations, nor motivate the caring and wise man to act to abjure it."

[WaylanderX]

"Whether it is truly pointless, I know not. It appeared to be a struggle for control of the Imperium itself, something it would seem worth fighting over. As to whether it will continue, I know not. I do not believe the Qzare wishes to do so, but there remain serious questions to be settled about the activities of the Priory and their status within the Imperium. Zhuang's invasion has also changed the situation rather. In some ways, I think it might be better for the war to continue and be ended now, rather than remain unsettled and lead to greater conflict in years to come."

"Better yet would be a compromise between the two parties, preventing any more casualties. The ground should not be painted red when alternatives methods are also available. But as a helpless bystander, I would not know if that was even a possibility. If not, continuation of this conflict may be for the better of the innocent people in the long run. I thank you for your time, your Highness. If you would excuse me."

Kenwyn made a deep bow and left Athelmere, walking towards Wayve.

"My liege, I have some information you might be interested in..."

Earlier, in a Time Bubble

"I do not believe war should ever be referred to as 'grand.' War is abominable. In short, my forebear had a series of serious crimes laid against him specifically and his family in general. The late Chief Hierarch Zanper Fidious spent several years trying to suppress the rumors of these crimes, until such time that proof of them arose. He tried to confront Hanyeo about them personally, but Hanyeo refused multiple attempts at communication. After Hanyeo confronted Zanper directly and demanded that Zanper recognize his divine right to make war on the whole world to bring it under his personal control, Zanper refused and fled to preserve his own life. He then laud public charges against Hanyeo, who rose an army from his own lands and the lands of our outer provinces to wage war against the Priory to suppress the "rebellion" that was nothing of the sort. We did not rebel, rather, we insisted only that the laws of the land be followed and that the will of Our Lady be divined. The ensuing battle saw many lives ended, but it was much less brutal than it might have been. The people did not truly wish to war with their own, with only the will of the late Qzare driving them into it.

Zhuang sought to take advantage of the situation, and much of the situation as seen by those in the north seems to be colored be his manufactured deceptions. He sent his own armies south, claiming some measure of legal right to do so based on his father once being Qzare, though his father had authored and signed pacts that neither he nor any of his offspring should have any claim to Imperium lands or titles. The two "sides" of the prior battle worked together in unison to repel the madman's armies. Furthermore, I was under the impression..."

Rongyao's attention drifts as Tailong enters the room. He quickly ducks away from the conversation to approach Tailong.

"I apologize. If you'll excuse me for a moment.

"Apology accepted." Wayve said while Rongyao rushed away

Looking at the socalled "Qzare" bearhugging Tai Long, Wayve walked into the crowd. Some people were just too gullable or too blinded by faith. Not a very good measure of Prowess in his mind. Seeing Kenwyn walking towards him, he turned and waited till the Bucka closed the distance.

"My liege, I have some information you might be interested in..."

"Do tell, my friend, do tell. It is time to see what the intentions really are of both sides of this internal struggle."

After Kenwyn gave a brief overview of Athelmere's standpoints, Wayve chuckled, hiding his amusement in his fist. Two very different viewpoints upon the same war. It never stopped surprising him how faith and greed both could blind a man. Ideally, he should talk to Tai Long aswel, but maybe that was a job for Haruka or perhaps Myron. He did not particularly liked the, in his mind, real Qzare. Too informal for his tastes.

"A fair proposal for cases in which a foreigner attempts something against a leader of a nation or the nation itself, but it addresses not the issues of internal rebellion or revolution which has been all that has been seen in recent years. Tupelo rose from AQUA itself, Zhuang from the Triumvirate. While the Triumvirate was capable of arresting and trying Zhuang AQUA erupted into civil war when Tupelo was killed by a foreign power. Would this proposed court then bring the killers of Tuplelo to face trial alone? What if no foreign power had acted against Tupelo? Would he have then been allowed to take over in violent revolution?"

"It is a fine thing to close one's doors and demand each nation take care of its own problems unless another nation becomes involved, but such is not the action of a caring or wise man who would recognize that to do so invites the spread of that which is deemed undesirable into another or even his own country from lack of action taken at the origin."

"Alas, I can not agree with the notion of interfering with the succesion in ones own country. Other countries simply do not have the right to mingle, even if it is an agressive take-over. If the people of that country are against the take-over, they will rise up. Also, interfering could cause the internal struggle to escalate even more and break that country apart. What is Tupelo would have turned out to be a capable ruler after his hostile take-over? What if his cause was justified? Then Tupello would not be remembered as a tyrant, but as a hero. One cannot judge those of another nation whose intentions and mentality are not clear."

[Rizban]

"It is a fine thing to close one's doors and demand each nation take care of its own problems unless another nation becomes involved, but such is not the action of a caring or wise man who would recognize that to do so invites the spread of that which is deemed undesirable into another or even his own country from lack of action taken at the origin."

Rongyao does not react to the backhanded insults, mentally shrugging them off as being the way the Triumvirate does things.

"If a nation is incapable of handling its own problems, then that is usually a case of poor leadership. If the nation needs assistance from an outside ally, then it is that nation's prerogative to request such. However, it is not any nation's job to police the affairs of its neighbors, nor should it be. That will only increase resentment between nations, paranoia on the part of the nobles, and unrest on the part of the people. With every action under the scrutiny of an international government, nations will be forced to capitulate to it through political and social pressures and threat of potential military action. Even should every nation represented here and every person appointed by each nation have only the best interests of the world at heart, eventually one of two things will occur. One, the power of the council will be slowly and surely usurped by people within the nations who see an opportunity to impose their will on the world, leading to coalitions within the council vying for power and becoming a destabilizing element. Two, the council itself will decide that the "greater good" is best served by targeting certain individual nations and robbing them of their power and sovereignty, leading to, as King Athelmere mentioned, a small, powerful oligarchy with only their agendas and goals being followed.

Such a body has too much power, and whether power can corrupt or the corrupt seek power matters not. Eventually, its purpose and power will be corrupted. To rob it of its power to prevent such abuse also robs it of its effectiveness. To do that then removes any purpose it might have beyond propaganda and politicking, neither of which will be beneficial in the long run."

[QuintonBeck]

"And such is the nature of the debate Qzare, do any here trust a council above them to direct actions on a world stage? We inherently ask the people of our nations to follow us, but when asked to do the same of something new we cannot capitulate. I myself struggle to find reason to accept a higher director than national governance, though my concern stems from a concern on how such a directing body would be chosen and fairness maintained, even if they were elected by the people, national identities run so deep that, as you say, interest groups would form and their whims would direct such an organization."

"Queen Amalia, I'm afraid I don't yet see how your proposition might work and while I am willing to sit here and listen, I do not think a conclusion will be reached, most especially without even a springboard to begin from. I'm afraid I have no more to say at this time."

Aluic sat down, and folded his hands together, letting the rest of the delegates continue the discussion.

Spoiler: OOC Rizban

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Backhanded insults wha? I don't mind if you took an insult IC cause that'll add an interesting dynamic, but I legit don't get where you got that or what you're referencing?

[lt_murgen]

Opus made an attempt to steer the conversation away from the most contentious issue. "And yet certain international conventions exist, more or less. Seventy five years ago, many nations came together to discuss navigation and safety upon the Sea of the Golden Sun. And while that too was contentious at the time, do not most nations now accept the idea of territorial waters and relevant measurement thereof? Are not the white for trade, red for diplomacy, and black for emergency as runners not common upon our seas?

Perhaps, instead of discussing the larger issue of nation soverignty versus international community, we should be looking for areas in which we can find common ground? A method for establishing technology rights, perhaps? I believe there was a great deal of contention around printing presses some time ago."

Spoiler: ooc for rizban and quinton

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Yea, I took that as a shot at Tupelo killing Amber as being something other regents wouldn't want

[Rizban]

Spoiler: OOC QuintonBeck

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I didn't take it as an insult, but Rongyao would have seen using a phrase like "such is not the action of a caring or wise man" to describe what he just stated as being his actions as being indirectly calling him uncaring and unwise.

[Aedilred]

"Alas, I can not agree with the notion of interfering with the succesion in ones own country. Other countries simply do not have the right to mingle, even if it is an agressive take-over. If the people of that country are against the take-over, they will rise up. Also, interfering could cause the internal struggle to escalate even more and break that country apart. What is Tupelo would have turned out to be a capable ruler after his hostile take-over? What if his cause was justified? Then Tupello would not be remembered as a tyrant, but as a hero. One cannot judge those of another nation whose intentions and mentality are not clear."

Athelmere frowned. "In general, I would be in agreement with you, lord prince. But if I might be permitted to pose a personal, hypothetical question, were you to be assassinated following your succession, and your assassin claim the throne, having subverted, paid off or apprehended your generals, would you consider it just for him to remain on the throne as a legitimate successor, given no means remained in Hurosha to remove him? Would you entrust your survival to the will of the people and hope they would rise up in a bloody revolt to overthrow the usurper at risk of their own lives? Or would you rather your friends, family and allies in the Heartwaste, the Triumvirate, the Kingdom of the Burning Mountains, et al, took action to remove your killer, even if it meant interfering in internal affairs of the Empire?

"Of course, I regret the consequences of Tupelo's death. But to have allowed that situation to stand without objection or action from the wider world would have set an alarming precedent, and I was far from the only ruler to believe so, even if I am the only one present today."

[Morph Bark]

Time Bubble
"Tailong! My friend, it has been too long! I had hoped we could get together sooner, but the troubles with the northern threats to the Imperium and the ensuing chaos have been so time consuming."

Tailong was caught a bit off guard by the sudden hug by the man he'd always known as Gloriosis, who in many ways had been a brother to him--a brother who shared views on governance but who was wildly different in personality from him in many respects nevertheless. He patted Rongyao's back. "Too long for Tailong, eh? Indeed. We'll have much to talk of after this, both professional and personal."

---

Tailong slammed his hands flat on the table with force before another mention of Tupelo could be brought up, not only finding the matter of little use to discuss but also disrespectful to several present, including his wife, whom he feared might burst if the matter was pressed even further.

"My friends!" He stood from his seat and gestured around. "Well, not all of you, but certainly honoured in many ways. Quit this mewling! This quibble is beneath you all or it well should be. Matters of governance of another country are none of our concern, whether the power comes from ancestry, wealth or popularity--every system has its flaws as much as it has its benefits. However, there are things we all have in common: a thirst for justice, a hunger for virtue and a need for fairness.

"Me and mine have begun the creation of a code of law in matters civil and criminal that I wish to have implemented throughout the Imperium. My good brother Zuida Rongyao has been so generous to be of aid with that, proving for a second time that even those whose families and peoples may have clashed can stand together for justice, as we have stood against my cousin in the fields of Bor-Teire."

Tailong paused, letting the words sink in and once again making him realize that he would never again be able to speak to Zhuang now that the Triumvirate had had him killed. His eyes became wetter at the thought, but tears never came. As he blinked it back his gaze lingered on Aluic Shaeldtae. "It is therefore my hope that the Triumvirate shall be of assistance in its creation and shall likewise adopt it, to provide a unified code of law on civil and criminal matters throughout multiple large realms. This shall prevent many misunderstandings that occur across cultural boundaries when merchants and sailors traverse borders. This does not preclude the existence of specific local laws, especially pertaining to matters of faith, and the codex shall not touch upon matters of governance, but purely the swift execution and fairness of a unified legal system that has been sorely lacking in many nations.

"Further," and with this he licked his lips, for he would have to at least tangentially address the Tupelo matter, "I would like to include laws specifically about international matters that include certain things of import, most notably actions in a war, the deliverance of criminals to their country of origin and right of nations to bring foreigners to trial."

[lt_murgen]

"I would like to include laws specifically about international matters that include certain things of import, most notably actions in a war, the deliverance of criminals to their country of origin and right of nations to bring foreigners to trial."

"Certainly, we can agree to a standard for handling criminals from other nations, and for bringing foreigners to trial, as well as many other items of the same sort. Perhaps it would be best to start there, and then build to larger issues as the delegations insist." Opus agreed with the former speaker.

"As far as a codified set of common laws across all nations, it might be best to follow a similar pattern- start with what we can agree upon and build from there."

[QuintonBeck]

At being addressed Aluic looked over at the...what was he? Qzare? He didn't know.

If you should wish to discuss the establishment of civil laws I would direct you to the Shahidi Mkuu, she has been granted right within our constitution to handle matters of law and establishing a unified system of law, which are intended to incorporate the tenets of Radurja. That said I do not believe they shall be overly dependent on the Radurjic faith and as the Radurjic Faith is one of incorporation and acceptance I would imagine those laws you seek to establish could be worked into the Triumvirate's own if deemed reasonable and just but the actual details of your law code would of course have to be revealed to and reviewed by the Shahid Mkuu and her Radurjic judges and advisers before such commitment could be promised."

"As to the matter King Athelmere brings up," he paused, appreciating wryly that he had already been drawn back in, "Perhaps the wanton justice of foreign nations as situations arise should domestic powers be incapable of handling them itself is all we can hope for in which case addressing that issue further will not lead to any resolution that might be pursued by all present."

[Aedilred]

Athelmere listened to Tailong's intervention with a grim sort of amusement. He wondered if Tailong knew of the support provided by Wandao to the operation to eliminate Tupelo; it had been a well-kept secret and perhaps not even Hanyeo and his son had been informed. Still, the interruption had been timely, as he'd been on the verge of losing his temper, and he could sense without even looking Tempest quietly seething beside him. Perhaps Tailong had felt something similar from his own wife.

"I agree with my lord Qzare," he said, eventually: after all, Tailong was now both his liege and his son by law, and it was only right to support him. "It is not for any of us to pass judgment on another's system of governance, though I hope we can at least agree to ensure that existing systems of governance are maintained and respected."

He looked back over the table at Opus. The juxtaposition was unintentional, but he took a dark satisfaction from the realisation. "I wonder what elements of law we can agree upon. We may find it difficult even to agree upon the matters on which laws are most needed. For my part, the key issues I would wish to see addressed are:-" he ticked them off on his fingers- "treatment of prisoners of war, particularly those of royal, noble or... other governmental status; promulgation of religion and associated tolerance; insurance of lawful succession and preservation of the dignities of heads of state; and extradition of criminals, particularly traitors, residing in other sovereign territories."

[lt_murgen]

He looked back over the table at Opus. The juxtaposition was unintentional, but he took a dark satisfaction from the realisation. "I wonder what elements of law we can agree upon. We may find it difficult even to agree upon the matters on which laws are most needed. For my part, the key issues I would wish to see addressed are:-" he ticked them off on his fingers- "treatment of prisoners of war, particularly those of royal, noble or... other governmental status; promulgation of religion and associated tolerance; insurance of lawful succession and preservation of the dignities of heads of state; and extradition of criminals, particularly traitors, residing in other sovereign territories."

Opus smiled back, clearly enjoying the summit. He nodded, "King Athelmere has provided an excellent starting point. Certainly we can come to some set standard for dealing with both the common soldier and their leaders, when an army is captured." That he left out the portion about special treatment for nobility was clearly deliberate. "Similarly, the extradition of criminials and traitors residing in other nations is something upon which we can find common ground. I would humbly add a discussion on technological ownership, as that is dear to some here and something easy to address. Perhaps that is a good place to start, if only to see how 'easy' a simple thing turns out to be."

[BladeofObliviom]

Far, far too late to have any meaningful effect on the goings-on, a small delegation from Glazfell (along with a few Sympol) arrives. King Khyne, Ironfang, and most of the other major figures in the region are currently busy fighting a war against Orcs, and evidently couldn't be bothered to sail halfway across the world for a diplomatic conference in Celero. That, however, doesn't mean that nobody of relevance shows up.

The first to enter are four catfolk, all yellow-eyed and slender with taut muscles under a furry white coat. At a glance they might not seem particularly imposing, but their dark green cloaks marked with the symbol of a broken arrow denote the truth: All four are Frosskovi Mercenaries, Rangers, and masters of Tuhat Nägu. They carry no weapons, but that does not mean that they are not dangerous. They are followed by a heavier figure, draped in noble finery and gold and silver.

A relatively tall Frosten male, Duke Senroth towers over his (relatively short) Catfolk bodyguards. His flesh is a pale blue, but his eyes and hair are as gray as a pregnant stormcloud waiting to rain. He walks with a slight limp, but carries an unadorned cane to assist his steps. He is stout but not yet corpulent, and the indigo of a varicose vein can be seen faintly on his neck.

"Greetings,"

Says the Duke, taking another several several steps forward to actually join the conversation.

"Have I missed anything important?"

Spoiler: OOC

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I mostly sent this guy as an excuse to pile up a bunch of trades and such under a diplomacy tag, but I'll at least try to add to the conversation where I can.

[WaylanderX]

Spoiler

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Athelmere frowned. "In general, I would be in agreement with you, lord prince. But if I might be permitted to pose a personal, hypothetical question, were you to be assassinated following your succession, and your assassin claim the throne, having subverted, paid off or apprehended your generals, would you consider it just for him to remain on the throne as a legitimate successor, given no means remained in Hurosha to remove him? Would you entrust your survival to the will of the people and hope they would rise up in a bloody revolt to overthrow the usurper at risk of their own lives? Or would you rather your friends, family and allies in the Heartwaste, the Triumvirate, the Kingdom of the Burning Mountains, et al, took action to remove your killer, even if it meant interfering in internal affairs of the Empire?

Wayve nodded politely.

"You said it yourself, king Athelmere. Let friends and allies take care of it. Prevent enemies and neutral countries from taking action in that time of weakness. Let me clarify. Family takes care of family, friends want to help out of earnest intentions. That should be the main deterent of an uprising from within. The allies of the old ruler will not accept it. However, it was my understanding that with Tupelo for example, neutral and hostile countries to AQUA were also involved. This should be avoided at all costs in the future."

Spoiler

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Tailong slammed his hands flat on the table with force before another mention of Tupelo could be brought up, not only finding the matter of little use to discuss but also disrespectful to several present, including his wife, whom he feared might burst if the matter was pressed even further.

"My friends!" He stood from his seat and gestured around. "Well, not all of you, but certainly honoured in many ways. Quit this mewling! This quibble is beneath you all or it well should be. Matters of governance of another country are none of our concern, whether the power comes from ancestry, wealth or popularity--every system has its flaws as much as it has its benefits. However, there are things we all have in common: a thirst for justice, a hunger for virtue and a need for fairness.

"Me and mine have begun the creation of a code of law in matters civil and criminal that I wish to have implemented throughout the Imperium. My good brother Zuida Rongyao has been so generous to be of aid with that, proving for a second time that even those whose families and peoples may have clashed can stand together for justice, as we have stood against my cousin in the fields of Bor-Teire."

Tailong paused, letting the words sink in and once again making him realize that he would never again be able to speak to Zhuang now that the Triumvirate had had him killed. His eyes became wetter at the thought, but tears never came. As he blinked it back his gaze lingered on Aluic Shaeldtae. "It is therefore my hope that the Triumvirate shall be of assistance in its creation and shall likewise adopt it, to provide a unified code of law on civil and criminal matters throughout multiple large realms. This shall prevent many misunderstandings that occur across cultural boundaries when merchants and sailors traverse borders. This does not preclude the existence of specific local laws, especially pertaining to matters of faith, and the codex shall not touch upon matters of governance, but purely the swift execution and fairness of a unified legal system that has been sorely lacking in many nations.

"Further," and with this he licked his lips, for he would have to at least tangentially address the Tupelo matter, "I would like to include laws specifically about international matters that include certain things of import, most notably actions in a war, the deliverance of criminals to their country of origin and right of nations to bring foreigners to trial."

Wayve grimassed. Typical Salterri behaviour, trying to force others to concede to their own self-rightous views. It made him sick to his stomach.

"This "thirst for justice, a hunger for virtue and a need for fairness" you speak of are all different for each of us as well. As for the...code of law...you are develloping, I highly doubt something designed to work in the Emperium would work elsewhere. I think we should start with the small, before trying to force the greater. Like Lord Opus suggested, a general consensus about prisoners of war and the exchange of criminals might be a appropriate first step."

[QuintonBeck]

Wayve nodded politely.

"You said it yourself, king Athelmere. Let friends and allies take care of it. Prevent enemies and neutral countries from taking action in that time of weakness. Let me clarify. Family takes care of family, friends want to help out of earnest intentions. That should be the main deterent of an uprising from within. The allies of the old ruler will not accept it. However, it was my understanding that with Tupelo for example, neutral and hostile countries to AQUA were also involved. This should be avoided at all costs in the future."

Wayve grimassed. Typical Salterri behaviour, trying to force others to concede to their own self-rightous views. It made him sick to his stomach.

"This "thirst for justice, a hunger for virtue and a need for fairness" you speak of are all different for each of us as well. As for the...code of law...you are develloping, I highly doubt something designed to work in the Emperium would work elsewhere. I think we should start with the small, before trying to force the greater. Like Lord Opus suggested, a general consensus about prisoners of war and the exchange of criminals might be a appropriate first step."

Aluic appreciated silently the words of the Huroshan Prince spoken in regards to Tailong and despite his questions regarding how the Prince would propose neutral or hostile countries be prevented from interference much less their identification as such, he kept those concerns quiet preferring to not weaken the Huroshan's words.

"As my fellow delegates have said, it would be a good thing to work on something we can more readily agree on than pursue that which we are unable to. Prisoners of war first then, and after that a discussion on the exportation of foreign criminals. I should think at its simplest we shall all agree that should a foreign army surrender all their men and/or women ought to be taken prisoner, not killed or tortured, and that they ought to be afforded the simple dignities of food and shelter as one would accommodate even in the barest sense any sentient creature? Are there any objections to this barest of proposals?"

[Logic]

"Simple and clear rules for the treatment of prisoners of war, and the extradition of criminals are things Celero will agree to. However, I would prefer a specific clause for the treatment of officers, as they are of more strategic value to either side than any mere fighting-man. Basic foot soldiers have no value beyond the fight directly in front of them, or denying that capability to the enemy. Officers know plans, campaigns, tactics, and strategy. There should be some specific rules governing their detainment as prisoners of war."

[Aedilred]

"Simple and clear rules for the treatment of prisoners of war, and the extradition of criminals are things Celero will agree to. However, I would prefer a specific clause for the treatment of officers, as they are of more strategic value to either side than any mere fighting-man. Basic foot soldiers have no value beyond the fight directly in front of them, or denying that capability to the enemy. Officers know plans, campaigns, tactics, and strategy. There should be some specific rules governing their detainment as prisoners of war."

"I agree. Have you any suggestions as to what these rules should be?" He coughed slightly, aware he was touching on a point of some delicacy. "I have heard that on occasion in the past officers and noble prisoners have been treated in some ways rather worse than their common counterparts, with threats of execution and torture made, and other humiliations perpetrated, in a manner that shamed all those involved. This should not happen again. I would suggest that prisoners of higher military or civil rank or status should be accorded dignity commensurate with their status in addition to the basic protections and rights guaranteed common prisoners."

[Logic]

"I propose the following at a minimum:"

The queen pulled out a prepared leaflet, and had servants pass out copies to all those present. She then read from the list:

"Prisoners of war cannot be compelled to aid in the war effort of their captors. Prisoners of war must be accommodated clean water, food, clothing, and shelter.
Prisoners of war are to be treated humanely.
Prisoners of war are entitled to practice their own religion, rites, and appoint fellow prisoners of war to adjudicate disputes between each other."

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Girard was still on a slight edge that he couldn't quite swing. Why was it this "gift" wasn't disclosed? And why had they been invited for a Peace Summit, but with no intended plan for what to do? The whole thing felt very...wrong. How could Amalia have expected any sort of Plan to come out of such various amounts of different qualities and beliefs on their own? Policies proposed could be edited, disagreed upon. Care and intelligence go into the making of such, to account for these things. Instead, the idea was there...but it was just that, an idea. No follow through. And if that was intentional, then what was the real reason behind this meeting? Celero didn't seem to have diabolical plans...but who knows anymore. He pushed the thought away. Perhaps Celero just wants the solution, and decided the best way to find the answer was to have the group come to the decision instead of proposing one. In Girard's experience, this type of meeting generally didn't work. It gave too much control away, making a conversation or debate swirl around like a whirlpool, breaking things apart more and more. The debate was getting to the point where it was all the leaders could do but cling to what they knew, in fear of being bowled over by the rapids of the debate. Futile. Foolish. Girard sighed. There needed to be something to steer the ship, and keep the conversation on track and productive.

Speaking from his seat when the debate had lulled some, Girard chose to speak plain. "We all have our own ways, and those ways none of us have a right to change. We can argue who is more right all we want, but the issues will still remain, and all it will encourage is resentment and anger, as some of you have already become prone to. I do not fault you." Girard rose. "Whether you have been selected by the people or the Gods, your liege or your kin, it matters not. What matters is you have taken the responsibilities of your nations as your own. Your life as your own being ended as soon as you took the throne. What matters now is your kingdoms, and what choices you make to better them. This will sometimes cause conflict - within your nations, or with other nations you interact with. There will always be at least two sides in a given argument, and as we can see here today, many many more."

"Still, there are ways to provide options to nations to prevent the worst side of the argument to rear its ugly head - the side that no one wins on. I for one feared greatly that the wars centered around Bor-teire and Salteire would spiral into all out war, swallowing all the nations around it into massive conflict. Then there is the question which has risen from The Crown of Jarrow - what proceedures should be followed for prisioners of war? What happens to criminals who cause international crime? So many things mentioned, but what I hear the most is - why should I give up my power over my own realm? And there in, lies the center of the issue. Most here do not desire giving someone else power within their own kingdom. For any decison to be made that effects all of us, that power is effected."

"For some, that power is a mandate from their God or Gods. In their mind, their Deity would make them accountable, should they be doing wrong. For others, it is a mandate of their heritage, their ancestors holding them to certain accounts for their leadership. Still other nations hold their throne by physical or martial strength, their mandate is held accountable by their strength and will to hold it. Others get their power through election by their people, who hold them accountable for all they do."

"These levels of accountability are all the same in some level or another. We are granted this power through some means, and by this means we find to be the best way to have this power, otherwise a different method would be used. You all came here to this summit...why? Ask yourselves this question and speak honestly. Why would you come to a peace summit without at least in some capacity, some willingness to create a way for there to...be some kind of agreement between nations. Some sort of way to provide a level of peace."

"I think we need to consider this - is there a way to not give up our power, but still ensure a semblance of accountability to more than just ourselves, our people, our Gods, but to each other? I may have an idea. What if instead of the nations controlling the nations, what if we had a neutral ground? A place where all nations would hold jurisdiction. A middle ground where none of us have power individually, but each of us would be a delagate on a council that controlled the region. Trials could be there, juried and judged by the council. International disputes. Imprision international criminals. A place war and fighting is forbidden. This brings up issues that have already been stated in some capacities, but it has a subtle difference - we would all be working together to accomplish this, instead of vying to rise to the top of ruling all nations."

Girard remains standing to address the questions and concerns that might arise.

[QuintonBeck]

Aluic had been preparing to comment on the additional ideas of better treatment for officers and those of rank, in favor of such provisions and with a careful acknowledgment and disdain for the way in which Wandao was treated by the forces of PAIN before his transfer to Triumvirate hands, but before he could utter a word the Lyradissian Lord began a great address. He respected the Lyradissians, when direct election for the seat of Lord Chancellor was deemed too radical by his fellow Triads he had turned towards the selection process used for Lyradis sovereigns with elements borrowed from the Battle of Wits used on Yorukuni and the Triumvirate had in large part adopted and combined the two methods. He respected Lyradis and its political acumen, and as he listened he recognized the wisdom in Girard's voice, but along with it was a seeming disconnect of understanding the issues many here had expressed.

"Your Majesty, it is a noble sentiment your propose, but as I believe has already been discussed, many nations feel such a council, based in whatever grounds, ruled by whoever or how many, would simply be too slow a mechanism to address issues as they arose and too weak to enforce any decisions it made," he paused before again referencing Tupelo and decided to try another tact.

"Say a nation takes some form of action against another, a blockade of trade, a conscription of traveling merchants, it doesn't matter, but it is not an explicit act of war and the offended nation feels its rights have been violated. It trusts in this proposed council and calls a meeting, representatives of this nation must now travel to wherever the council meets, which could be days away or months, while the rest of the international community assembles there as well to hear this complaint, meanwhile, the action found offensive by the petitioning nation continues throughout the assembly of this court and through its deliberations. Further, say the offending nation holds much individual power and great influence while the offended is small or poorly received internationally, if the council were to find in favor of the offending nation the other would have no recourse and war could still occur or worse yet the offended nation would be forced to accept its fate now not only bullied by the offending nation but by the ruling of an international body supporting them. Even if the offended nation were found in favor of, without the force to back its ruling an international council could easily be ignored by a state with tremendous enough power under its own might unless all nations who agreed to such a council also pledged military support to its rulings, something many here have expressed reticence to do for reasons not unreasonable."

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Girard looked disappointed with this response, but it smoothed into a friendly, if not neutral face. "I understand these problems, but that's why I proposed it. Finding solutions to these problems are concievable," he paused thoughtfuly, "though perhaps not within our current grasp. Thank you for allowing me to borrow your ears delagates. As for the prisioners of war, I agree with the ideas Amalia put forth, save the last, in which she stated for imprisioning nations to 'appoint fellow prisoners of war to adjudicate disputes between each other.'"

[QuintonBeck]

"Who then might settle their disputes? Would they be subject to laws of the land in which they were held? I do not understand the reason for your objection Lord Girard."

Spoiler: For Waylander and Logic Only

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During a break from the deliberations Aluic approached the Queen Amalia and Prince of Hurosha.

"Excuse me your majesty, your lordship, might I have a word?"

Leading the two off to a more secluded area he extended a hand to both of them in turn, "Before we get started I would like to properly introduce myself in a way less formal than was prompted upon my arrival. I have heard only the finest of things of both of you and your families from my friend Syana, and allow me to again apologize on behalf of the Triumvirate and as a family man myself to you Queen Amalia for the actions Zhuang took against Andust's wife, and to you Prince Wayve for that loss as well, I know Mira was like a sister to Sharas and I take solace in that through her and all our memories she might live on."

"But I did not ask to speak with you merely to apologize for the sins of Zhuang, I wished to speak to you both about the Treatise Elemental signed between our nations some years ago," he paused, seeming to be careful with his next words, "The treaty is a great symbol for our nations' friendship and holds a place high within Triumvirate esteem. To break it would be no less than to raise a blade against one's own brother, which we could not tolerate," he rushed the last part, realizing his words might be taken as an accidental reference of Zhuang.

"But there is one part of the treaty that bothers me. The agreement to share all technologies between our nations. I have reviewed the various exchanges between our nations and have found many of the distributed technologies were distributed to Hurosha and Celero from the Triumvirate while the Triumvirate has only received a few in return. This would not bear concern in my mind, being that at many different times many different countries are in more advantageous positions to receive technologies or invent new ones and I should expect either Hurosha or Celero to outpace Triumvirate acquisitions some time in the future and then the balance will be maintained, but what does concern me is the actions of Celero. You'll pardon me Queen Amalia, but I couldn't help but notice the Celerese have repeatedly gained technologies not possessed by the Triumvirate or Hurosha under agreements not to disseminate these technologies meaning we never receive them. First with Blackpowder and then with Lenses, and while I understand you do not wish to break growing ties with the UN but you have made the continued dissemination of technologies acquired by the Triumvirate to your lands a much harder prospect to sell to the Senate and the Triad Council when those acquired by your nation are not sent back in return."

"As I would not ask you to break your word to the UN nations you have been dealing with I should like to instead simply offer a small alteration to the terms of the treaty. Rather than the dissemination of technologies as acquired to all parties I believe it might be fairer to all involved if the clause were changed to read that the members of the Treatise shall have first opportunity to acquire any technology acquired by another member and that the terms of such exchange shall be negotiated between the members in a case by case basis. What say you?"

Spoiler: For Waylander, Wombat, Moossabi, SamBurke, and Logic Only

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Speaker Shaeldtae took a deep breath and tugged at his tunic to straighten it. This was a large proposition he was about to bring forward and he did not have the pedigree and history he imagined he would need for his proposition to be met and listened to. Nevertheless, he was determined to make it.

During a break from the primary discussion he approached the representatives of the various Coalition nations, asking Amalia for a private room which they might discuss something in. Once they were all gathered in one location Aluic began.

"Esteemed representatives, I thank you all for joining me here and thank you to Queen Amalia for providing a forum that we might speak."

"I know my name is a new one to many of you, I know that my position may be seen as illegitimate or weak, and I know I do not share the history by blood that was shared with your nations by the Ignato line, but let me assure you all the history between our nations is shared with me in spirit and in the proposition I now bring before you. I believe the Grand Coalition as it stands must be dissolved for the good of all the nations who claim membership to it."

He let any murmurs or objections break at this point but raised his hands in a plea for silence and continued speaking,

"Some may know I was friends with Syana Ignato during her reign as Empress, some of you may not, but the matter of fact is I spoke with her often about the reputation the Grand Coalition was gaining amongst the international community. It was not and is not a good one. The Empress, even as the wise woman she was could not move to break away from the GC feeling she owed it to her grandfather and her family in Hurosha to keep it together. Even as she tried to distance herself and the Triumvirate from the darkening reputation of the Coalition her adamant remaining within it kept the Triumvirate from truly breaking away from its tainted reputation. But now, with the new Triad Council the motion to remove the Triumvirate from the grand Coaltion has been approved and I will seek to pursue it here today should no argument sway me. But before I open the floor to these arguments, let me first make mine."

"Firstly, I should note I bear no ill will towards any in the Grand Coalition, much the opposite in fact, I desire that all the nations currently standing as members remain friends and allies to the Triumvirate and will pursue that by any means I can. If the Coalition states would turn their back on the Triumvirate for leaving and shun or attack it for doing so then I should stay, but I should warn that if such is the case it would only make a stronger case to be levied against the Coalition by our enemies. For you see, those not belonging to the Coalition, and I do not speak only of the Union of the North or its followers, but others as well such as the Glazfelli, the Wenyavuk, those of the south in Imperium lands, speak constant ill of the Coalition as a bullying force that in its existence threatens all who do not belong to its list of members."

"While it may seem the talk of foreigners is unimportant, if this Summit shows anything it shows that increasingly the nations are beginning to think internationally, they're beginning to want to develop on the world stage, not just the local or regional one and as that happens and the Coalition is saddled with the name of bully who do you think shall be the target used to levy force against? The Coalition. As the UN prompted the creation of the greater and more dangerous GC so too will the GC, by existing so blatantly and openly, shall prompt some greater allied power to rise up against it. What I propose is not the burning of the bridges that make up the Coalition, but the removal of the title identifying them all as such. If there is no Grand Coalition there can be no grand conspiracy by it to bully the rest of the world. If we do not send delegates to meet behind closed doors to discuss Coalition business but instead communicate through letters and unorganized and labelled meetings the target on our backs will shrink."

"I would see the alliances that compose the GC survive and keep the north central continent and holdings upon the west and east remain bound together in friendship and alliance, but that this friendship should not be given some easily accessible name for our enemies to rally others against."

Concluding his speech Aluic folded his hands in front of him and sat down, allowing any of the others present to voice their own ideas or concerns.

Spoiler: For Moossabi Only

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OOC: If this is acceptable to you let's update the Alliance of Scale and Sky to it.

The Alliance of Scale and Sky
Participants:Triumvirate, Alydaxan Dominion
Alliance is a pact of mutual non-interference and trade. All signatory nations will respect the military actions of all other signed nations and will not interfere or intervene unless their assistance is requested and given freely.

Trades: Aloren Goats for Scla'ca Gold and Aloren Saffron for Alydaxian Silver

[TheWombatOfDoom]

"Who then might settle their disputes? Would they be subject to laws of the land in which they were held? I do not understand the reason for your objection Lord Girard."

Girard looked like it would be obvious. "How can a prisioner pass formal judgement on other prisioners? It also assumes to much about the conditions of imprisionment, such as how many individuals are imprisioned, if they are imprisioned together, and so on. I may be missunderstanding the intentions of this perclosure, however. What is your take on this?"

[QuintonBeck]

Girard looked like it would be obvious. "How can a prisioner pass formal judgement on other prisioners? It also assumes to much about the conditions of imprisionment, such as how many individuals are imprisioned, if they are imprisioned together, and so on. I may be missunderstanding the intentions of this perclosure, however. What is your take on this?"

"I believe the intention no doubt would be that an officer or another of respected rank could be chosen by his or her troops to arbitrate disputes and enforce the law as the prisoners were used to. Obviously such arbitration would be subject to review by one's captors I imagine, but allowing a senior member of any captured troops to maintain cohesion among them even as prisoners and not as soldiers does not seem an egregious breach. Perhaps it is to some here though, in which case I suppose it needn't be included in any actual written code and instead simply be the practices of those nations that do not find it a dangerous practice. Speaking for the Triumvirate, I should say we would allow such arbitration and appointment among any soldiers who were captive in our lands."

[Rizban]

"One of the requirements you propose is "humane" treatment. This term must be defined, especially since there are certain nations where the people would view limited access to strong alcohol as entirely inhumane, if not cruel and unusual punishment befitting only tyrants."

[Elemental]

"I propose the following at a minimum:"

The queen pulled out a prepared leaflet, and had servants pass out copies to all those present. She then read from the list:

"Prisoners of war cannot be compelled to aid in the war effort of their captors. Prisoners of war must be accommodated clean water, food, clothing, and shelter.
Prisoners of war are to be treated humanely.
Prisoners of war are entitled to practice their own religion, rites, and appoint fellow prisoners of war to adjudicate disputes between each other."

Knowing that all other discussion would likely produce no result, Tansan turned his attention to the leaflet and was handed a sheet of parchment, a quill and ink by his son, Lazarul. Still paying attention to the debate going on, he began to draft a revised document in the common script. Eventually he stood up to speak.
"I apologise, but the last point is unacceptable. While I make no objection to those who choose to follow such a method themselves, Ashenia cannot. Our law is inviolable and to bend it for the benefit of our enemies such that they could follow blasphemous beliefs and subvert our justice would be unconscionable when they previously fought for our destruction. As such, we cannot agree to this proposal as written.
"However, I have prepared a counterproposal to address these points."
At this, his son Hazael stood and read out what the King had written.
"Prisoners of war may under no circumstances be compelled to work against their own allegiances.
"Prisoners of war must be treated with the basic dignity of all sentient creatures. As such, they are to be provided with sufficient food, shelter and clothing as their anatomy requires. Under no circumstances are they to be deprived of such basic necessities.
"Prisoners of war may under no circumstances be harmed save to prevent escape.
"Prisoners of war must follow the laws of the land in which they are incarcerated. If said laws are broken, they are to be treated appropriately.
"Prisoners of war who hold rank are to be kept in separate confinement as their status accords.
"Prisoners of war may be ransomed if both parties are in agreement, but may not be used as hostages.
"Prisoners of war may not be used as labourers save by their own agreement and only then for suitable payment.
"Prisoners of war may not be sold into slavery, banished to distant lands or otherwise prevented from returning to their country of origin at the cessation of hostilities.
"All the above points may be contravened if it is necessary to prevent harm to sentient creatures."