EMPIRE! CWBG VII: Dancing With Headless Princesses! (Fish, Saffron & Ginger Edition)

[Aedilred]

Yeah, the location is a fairly minor issue as far as these things go; there are a lot of bigger questions that would need answering first. Speed is a/the major one, and is an OOC issue as well as an IC one. But there's also the problem that there's no corpus of international law for such a court to enforce. There's not much point having a court to rule on international crimes until we've agreed terms for everyone to abide by (which is likely to be slow going, hence why we're starting with important but uncontroversial issues).

I think the summit runs a serious risk of trying to do too much and as a result achieving nothing. I really don't think (IC or OOC) that Telluris is ready for a UN/ICC-type body. People who are protective of their rights and sovereignty are probably going to be so regardless of whether it's a bigger power dictating to them or an independent organisation.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

The location isn't really the problem people have, nor is it a matter of who's in charge of it (since it was assumed appointees would likely be chosen per nation-specific ways). As was discussed it's an issue with how fast such a mechanism can work and how it can actually enforce anything it decides which I've brought up again IC. And we were making progress with the Prisoner things

How would we enforce the prisioner things then? Or anything? The nations that join uphold the nations that join. So one decides to break the mandates, then they are held accountable per their agreement. Trials take longer and could have happened for Tulupo, and Zhuang for that matter, at the council. It's not a mechanic for immediate things, but as a pervasive method to reach a mutuality between all nations that signed on. It worked with the Grand Coalition - though it was percieved wrong by the masses. But if all the masses were included...it might be a little different. For things like blockades and such, that would have to be something that we agree on like prisioners, and mandates to enforce if such things happen, just like prisioners might.

[QuintonBeck]

How would we enforce the prisioner things then? Or anything? The nations that join uphold the nations that join. So one decides to break the mandates, then they are held accountable per their agreement. Trials take longer and could have happened for Tulupo, and Zhuang for that matter, at the council. It's not a mechanic for immediate things, but as a pervasive method to reach a mutuality between all nations that signed on. It worked with the Grand Coalition - though it was percieved wrong by the masses. But if all the masses were included...it might be a little different. For things like blockades and such, that would have to be something that we agree on like prisioners, and mandates to enforce if such things happen, just like prisioners might.

You're mixing the issues. Having a standard for prisoners is something that a nation will be personally responsible for enforcing and have control over itself. While breaking such agreement would bring the ire of the rest of the world and likely lead to international intervention it isn't the same thing as saying you will abide by and enforce the decisions made by a foreign, albeit international, court and hand over your armies/resources/technologies as necessary to enforce the edicts of an international judgment. Being willing to enforce an internationally agreed upon standard within your nation by your own hand is a different thing from agreeing to allow an international hand to use your stuff to enforce its standard.

I think the best that can be hoped for atm is getting some internationally recognized standards out there for basic stuff that can be agreed upon by the current leaders of nations. The concept of an actual international body capable of drafting and passing further strictures to which all represented nations will be bound is quite plainly not going to happen at this time. Let the international laws we can agree on be written and accepted then in a few decades perhaps an actual international body can be formed.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

You're mixing the issues. Having a standard for prisoners is something that a nation will be personally responsible for enforcing and have control over itself. While breaking such agreement would bring the ire of the rest of the world and likely lead to international intervention it isn't the same thing as saying you will abide by and enforce the decisions made by a foreign, albeit international, court and hand over your armies/resources/technologies as necessary to enforce the edicts of an international judgment. Being willing to enforce an internationally agreed upon standard within your nation by your own hand is a different thing from agreeing to allow an international hand to use your stuff to enforce its standard.

I think the best that can be hoped for atm is getting some internationally recognized standards out there for basic stuff that can be agreed upon by the current leaders of nations. The concept of an actual international body capable of drafting and passing further strictures to which all represented nations will be bound is quite plainly not going to happen at this time. Let the international laws we can agree on be written and accepted then in a few decades perhaps an actual international body can be formed.

But I'm not saying to hand over any of those things. I'm just saying that both ideas aren't mutually exclusive. "bringing the ire" would be the same as "being made accountable". We don't need the council for much more than trials that wish to be tried in an international court, not for every thing. Perhaps we just don't have the means for an international court, despite several "trials" that were similar to that kind of thing. The council is just whoever agrees to whatever we agree upon, or the incentive to remain in conversation about things (possibly to meet once every 5 years to bring new things to decide as nations upon). I understand it might not be as far reaching as originally intended.

I agree, at this point it's pretty obvious that no one wants to make a "Grander Coalition", but at least trying to initiate some semblance of order for this moving forward lays the ground work for international proceedure.

[QuintonBeck]

I guess the difference is, agreeing to treat prisoners well or some other such thing but without some defined punishment or pledge to intervene if these rights are breached and relying on honor and such to keep them upheld is something people can agree on. If you form an actual international body for maintaining these things then all of a sudden there's an agency that can decide whether you're meeting the standards and dish out punishment as it sees fit. Most everyone seems to prefer such things to arise organically from mutual agreement and then mutual action taken by those who choose to act. Tupelo's assassination being a key example of this. Something happened a significant portion of the international community didn't like and action was taken to resolve it but it all came from internal proceedings and unofficial talks and agreements. An actual legitimate body that has authority to step in and say the response to so and so shall be this now go and do as I say isn't something the world is willing to accept right now by all accounts of what's been said.

I don't think an international body of any legitimate and organized order can be founded at this point. Setting out some rules and guidelines that nations all agree to enforce themselves? Yes. Opening the lines of communication for the growth of the international community and possibly laying the groundwork for an official international body down the line? Yes. An actual legitimate recognized international body? No, probably not.

Although speaking of the Grand Coalition, I think we might as well dissolve it at the Summit to show a step away from the power blocs that have so long dominated the landscape and a willingness towards being more open to a greater international community.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I guess the difference is, agreeing to treat prisoners well or some other such thing but without some defined punishment or pledge to intervene if these rights are breached and relying on honor and such to keep them upheld is something people can agree on. If you form an actual international body for maintaining these things then all of a sudden there's an agency that can decide whether you're meeting the standards and dish out punishment as it sees fit. Most everyone seems to prefer such things to arise organically from mutual agreement and then mutual action taken by those who choose to act. Tupelo's assassination being a key example of this. Something happened a significant portion of the international community didn't like and action was taken to resolve it but it all came from internal proceedings and unofficial talks and agreements. An actual legitimate body that has authority to step in and say the response to so and so shall be this now go and do as I say isn't something the world is willing to accept right now by all accounts of what's been said.

I don't think an international body of any legitimate and organized order can be founded at this point. Setting out some rules and guidelines that nations all agree to enforce themselves? Yes. Opening the lines of communication for the growth of the international community and possibly laying the groundwork for an official international body down the line? Yes. An actual legitimate recognized international body? No, probably not.

Although speaking of the Grand Coalition, I think we might as well dissolve it at the Summit to show a step away from the power blocs that have so long dominated the landscape and a willingness towards being more open to a greater international community.

On the GC, we talked on that already (albeit privately), and I'm okay with that you leaving. I expect some delegation at some point during the summit to continue our relationship, if that happens. We could time bubble it!

As for Girard, he pretty much went into the speech knowing that it was doomed, but wanted to say his piece about an actual tangible idea rather than a "have at it" mentality. It still begs the question that he originally posed - If the world's not ready for such an international body, then why did anyone show up? (oh right yes, the gift everyone was promised that nobody knows what it is seems legit)

[WaylanderX]

Although speaking of the Grand Coalition, I think we might as well dissolve it at the Summit to show a step away from the power blocs that have so long dominated the landscape and a willingness towards being more open to a greater international community.

I disagree with this. Powerblocks always have been in the international picture, like everywhere in every time. I for one would not break away from the GC because of international reasons. Partly because of OOC reasons, partly because of IC political reasons, partly because of obcure cultural reasons. So I'm against dissolving the GC.

[Logic]

I disagree with this. Powerblocks always have been in the international picture, like everywhere in every time. I for one would not break away from the GC because of international reasons. Partly because of OOC reasons, partly because of IC political reasons, partly because of obcure cultural reasons. So I'm against dissolving the GC.

I knew this would pop up again...

Celero hasn't left the Grand Coalition (and re-annexed the original shared port) for obscure cultural reasons.

[QuintonBeck]

Well, if someone would be so kind as to make another post in the Summit thread I'd appreciate it so I can start up some time bubbles with a variety of people.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Well, if someone would be so kind as to make another post in the Summit thread I'd appreciate it so I can start up some time bubbles with a variety of people.

Alright. Let me get on that...

[BladeofObliviom]

The two orc armies currently attacking people would be most like the first or third option or a mix. Take your pick!

Cool, I can work with this.



----

Does it really matter whether the GC dissolves or not? Unless you're all secretly planning on backstabbing one another and only holding back thanks to a hundred-year-old pact telling you not to, a majority of GC members are directly allied to one another in different ways. It'd still be a huge power block of webbed alliances, just one without a public face.

EDIT: Though now that I think about it, doing so would make it harder for people to directly condemn/praise/criticize the group as a whole, so I guess it would be a good move from a PR perspective.

[QuintonBeck]

Does it really matter whether the GC dissolves or not? Unless you're all secretly planning on backstabbing one another and only holding back thanks to a hundred-year-old pact telling you not to, a majority of GC members are directly allied to one another in different ways. It'd still be a huge power block of webbed alliances, just one without a public face.

EDIT: Though now that I think about it, doing so would make it harder for people to directly condemn/praise/criticize the group as a whole, so I guess it would be a good move from a PR perspective.

*shifty eyes* A PR campaign? Whatever could you mean by that dear sir stranger? Public Relations are totally silly and unimportant! no one cares about those! It must definitely be the first thing! Yes, yes, the knife back thing! That's it!

[Aedilred]

If the world's not ready for such an international body, then why did anyone show up? (oh right yes, the gift everyone was promised that nobody knows what it is seems legit)

Various reasons, I suspect: an opportunity to develop contacts and trades with other realms, as at any international event; curiosity, since it wasn't clear what the precise purpose was; to have a seat at the table and an opportunity to speak up about the issues even if - especially if - we didn't like what we heard, like Jeriah said; and of course the gift-bribe.

I disagree with this. Powerblocks always have been in the international picture, like everywhere in every time. I for one would not break away from the GC because of international reasons. Partly because of OOC reasons, partly because of IC political reasons, partly because of obcure cultural reasons. So I'm against dissolving the GC.

Given that every time the Grand Coalition is mentioned in this thread there seem to be as many different opinions about its nature expressed as there are people talking about it, I do have to wonder what purpose it currently serves, other than to give the people who aren't in it a common point of ire to complain about and perceive as dominating all global affairs.

[Logic]

It still begs the question that he originally posed - If the world's not ready for such an international body, then why did anyone show up? (oh right yes, the gift everyone was promised that nobody knows what it is seems legit)

Celero PROMISED a gift, so the world KNOWS it is totally legit.

[QuintonBeck]

You're very paranoid Wombat, I don't think Celero would really gain much if anything at all by doing anything bad to a room full of world leaders. It's probably magnets.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

You're very paranoid Wombat, I don't think Celero would really gain much if anything at all by doing anything bad to a room full of world leaders. It's probably magnets.

In a setting where a huge bunch of leaders are at the same place, and a war just having occured, ANYTHING's possible...(Though it's mostly just a jest now. However, it does raise some worry with Girard how things are laid out, despite his trust of Celero)

[TheDarkDM]

If it makes you feel any better, there are a bunch of Unmarked in the room.

[Aedilred]

If Logic's anything like me, the more people openly fret about what the gift is going to be and if it's a trick, the higher the chances are getting that it will turn out to be a trick and he'll kill us all.

[Elemental]

Do NOT give Morph any ideas please.

Don't worry, the worst that'd happen is you'd need to wait eighty or so years for that particular incarnation to die.

These are things that I consider when deciding where to reincarnate : P The place I'm looking at now might cause some political upheaval, still working it out. Ashenia would probably be a dangerous place though... both for the Shahidi Mkuu and Ashenia, should something go wrong.

The worst that would occur is that the Shahidi Mkuu is imprisoned in an asylum for the course of that incarnation. It's not like the Ashenites would kill them. After all, they don't believe is reincarnation, so anyone spouting nonsense about past lives would be locked up for their own safety.

I'm glad some other nations are looking at the new structure with a potentially appraising eye. I figure its kinda a mashup of the Roman Republic and early US governance at this point, mixed with some monarchial flavor in various areas, and a zest of reincarnating Pope to finish.

I've been under the assumption Morph was going to have the next reincarnation be in Ashenia or Salterri/Priory lands for a while now purely for the lulz and would be shocked beyond all reason if the next Shahidi Mkuu was born anywhere with even an inkling of Radurjic leanings

I will admit though that I am waiting for it to spectacularly fail. But that's just me.

Well... If I recall, the last appearance by the Blazing Avatar was in Niskovia, at least, one assumes a golden woman accompanied by dancing spirits is the Blazing Avatar... I was rather surprised that only Calorum seemed to do anything about it.

Celero PROMISED a gift, so the world KNOWS it is totally legit.

Why do I have a feeling that it's a gift certificate?

[QuintonBeck]

Why do I have a feeling that it's a gift certificate?

Or a really nice thank you card for attending.

[Logic]

Why do I have a feeling that it's a gift certificate?

Good for one back rub, one foot rub, and one fetch you anything.

[Elemental]

Good for one back rub, one foot rub, and one fetch you anything.

Fetch me the moons! I want to put them on my mantelpiece.

[Rizban]

Fetch me the moons! I want to put them on my mantelpiece.

That's just one fetch you anything. You'll have to coordinate with someone else to get both moons.

[Morph Bark]

Kind of, but not anymore. We'd likely have to figure out a place to do it. I'd suggest Cassia, but its sacred and all. It really wouldn't have to be that big... A city nation or something.

Diamondhead is a possibility. It's a city that functions as a trade post in Penoccident, the only region in the Salterri Heartlands GK that has no holy lands for the Salterri. It also has the rare sight of foreign temples in it, which isn't really found in the rest of the Heartlands. It was built by the Jeweled Cities, under Opus' reign. Because he still isn't entirely trusted, I really want to get another Grant or Grant-Tremblor as gouvernor of it or something.

It could always be a city-state within your capitol, like Vatican City is to Rome

Speaking of, does Genivana have anything of the sort? (Also, if we ever come to a Geneva style convention with actual resolutions, lets have it in Genivana just because names.)

I disagree with this. Powerblocks always have been in the international picture, like everywhere in every time. I for one would not break away from the GC because of international reasons. Partly because of OOC reasons, partly because of IC political reasons, partly because of obcure cultural reasons. So I'm against dissolving the GC.

Dis truth.

Celero PROMISED a gift, so the world KNOWS it is totally legit.

Fact: had I begun as a player, you would have been the first to receive my allegiance, since it's like you have a disease known as honour.

If Logic's anything like me, the more people openly fret about what the gift is going to be and if it's a trick, the higher the chances are getting that it will turn out to be a trick and he'll kill us all.

If Logic were like me (which he is not), the first gift would be be a good gift. The second that comes attached to the first is a time bomb which is not a literal time bomb.

[zabbarot]

Speaking of, does Genivana have anything of the sort? (Also, if we ever come to a Geneva style convention with actual resolutions, lets have it in Genivana just because names.)

No it doesn't. The first temple was at the college in Asnaogapura. But it's relocated to Miji Mkuu now. The church does not claim any lands.

[Elemental]

Speaking of, does Genivana have anything of the sort? (Also, if we ever come to a Geneva style convention with actual resolutions, lets have it in Genivana just because names.)

Fact: had I begun as a player, you would have been the first to receive my allegiance, since it's like you have a disease known as honour.

If Logic were like me (which he is not), the first gift would be be a good gift. The second that comes attached to the first is a time bomb which is not a literal time bomb.

I'd prefer a less inflammatory location. I mean... The last time a King of Ashenia went anywhere near Genivana, his heart was burnt while still in his chest. All in all, I'd suggest somewhere neutral in matters of religion.

At least it's not life threatening. Yet.

I have no objections if the Salterri develop a weapon capable of blowing holes in time. I mean, I already have a plan to make death rays, so someone else should probably work on a doomsday weapon to keep the world in balance.

No it doesn't. The first temple was at the college in Asnaogapura. But it's relocated to Miji Mkuu now. The church does not claim any lands.

Not even the ground their buildings are built on? Well, I know which land in Genivana I want the title deeds to.

[Aedilred]

Grand Duke Wulfendyne is open to signing this.

The terms are still under discussion in the Summit thread, but these are the current working ones:

"Prisoners of war may under no circumstances be compelled to work against their own allegiances.
"Prisoners of war must be treated with the basic dignity of all sentient creatures. As such, they are to be provided with sufficient food, shelter and clothing as their anatomy requires. Under no circumstances are they to be deprived of such basic necessities.
"Prisoners of war may only be harmed if in the process of escaping, and then only to prevent a successful escape.
"Prisoners of war must follow the laws of the land in which they are incarcerated. If said laws are broken, they are to be treated appropriately.
"Prisoners of war who hold rank, whether civil, aristocratic, martial or ecclesiastical, are to be kept in separate confinement as their status accords.
"Prisoners of war may be ransomed if both parties are in agreement, but may not be used as hostages.
"Prisoners of war may not be used as labourers save by their own agreement and only then for suitable payment.
"Prisoners of war may not be sold into slavery, banished to distant lands or otherwise prevented from returning to their country of origin at the cessation of hostilities.
"All the above points may be suspended if it is necessary to prevent harm to sentient creatures."

We're debating point 7 on that list (i.e. labouring) at the moment, but most people seem in agreement on the rest.

We haven't got onto the subject of extraditions, religion, or trade laws yet, of course.

Also, has the Grand Duke finally taken Edwyrd's advice regarding House Sturmvarous?

[zabbarot]

Not even the ground their buildings are built on? Well, I know which land in Genivana I want the title deeds to.

Maybe I should get with the proselytizing. You seem to have a populace ripe for conversions :P

[Aedilred]

"Does Jarrland mean to imply that the nations of the east are not right-thinking?"

... I knew that was going to come back to bite me when I said it...

Does anyone at the Summit have a shovel? I've found myself in a bit of a hole

[QuintonBeck]

... I knew that was going to come back to bite me when I said it...

Does anyone at the Summit have a shovel? I've found myself in a bit of a hole

I too was waiting on that to come up. I really don't know what you're going to say, but I'm looking forward to it

EDIT: Without either calling slavery out as not right or tip toeing very carefully "Well sure, those people ought to be slaves cause it's culturally acceptable but not prisoners because they weren't raised that way!" I really can't think of a way to handle this. That's a mighty impressive hole there.