Let's Read A Song of Ice and Fire

[AGD]

Jon Snow, Jaime Lannister, Tyrion Lannister, Arya Stark, Samwell Tarly, Davos Seaworth, Barristan Selmy and Varys have won. Jon and Sam with a difference of only one vote.

[SaintRidley]

Let’s Read: A Song of Ice and Fire:
A Storm of Swords part eleven (I goofed up copy/paste before)! ~1000-1128!

The end of the book. As is customary, I’ll have my end of book wrap-up as part of this entry. It’s like we’re starting with almost a clean slate again. Perhaps my earlier thought that A Game of Thrones was the introduction and A Clash of Kings the beginning of the long middle was off. Perhaps the first three books are truly our introduction, shuffling everyone around who needs to move and killing off those who aren’t needed for the true conflict, and we’re only just now about to enter the middle of the saga. I’m not sure, but I’m beginning to feel like it makes more sense that way. Game of Thrones is basically the prologue to the introduction.

Jaime: And Tommen is officially signing bills of attainder, including ones stripping the Tullys of their titles. One last turn of the knife. Now the Freys profit nothing from the marriage, though they may have won Riverrun by another bill. Indeed, that’s what happens, after Jaime winces from learning he can’t fight anymore.

Tommen isn’t Joffrey, and the kingdom be thankful for that. The boy even likes to read. Let’s hope Tommen continues to disappoint Jaime.

So that’s Tywin’s game, to send a false Arya to Bolton’s bastard. Oh, that’s good. Meanwhile Oberyn’s poison spear seems to have done a number on the Mountain. There’s a problem for Tywin perhaps being removed, if the maester can heal him enough to be fit for execution.

Cersei awaits in Jaime’s chambers, to beg him to do something about their father trying to separate her from Tommen. Jaime still wants to declare publicly their love.

And now Jaime as well thinks Joffrey might have tried to have Bran killed. Curiouser and curiouser.

Cersei wants him, but only in secret. He wants her, but he now wants her in the open. An interesting rift. Also, two weiners alongside yet another weiner....

Jaime still harbors doubts about Tyrion’s guilt. He may well free the Imp under cover of darkness.

And Loras seems to have made up his mind about Brienne, if Jaime’s ready to see her. Jaime almost seems to be putting some of the pieces together regarding the strange power about Stannis.

It’s Brienne he can talk to now, far more easily than he talks with Cersei. He tells her about the false Arya, and talks of Sansa and Tyrion. She’s adamant it wasn’t Sansa, he is that it was; perhaps the two together can figure out who else might be interested.

The sword Tywin had made for Jaime, he gives to Brienne and names Oathkeeper. She’s to find and defend Sansa. And the steel comes from Ice, a good sign for Brienne to bring to Sansa.

Jaime can write whatever he chooses in the book. Might be that’s the one avenue he has to out himself and Cersei to the world.

Jon: Looks like Jon is being given one chance to prove himself to the Night’s Watch, on a suicide mission to kill Mance Rayder. If Jon hopes to succeed, he’d better hope Ghost shows up.

It’s a good trap. He’s unwelcome all around, really. Tormund comes out to greet him, perhaps the best course of action for Jon. Tormund likes a good story, and can generally be found to have a good humor about him.

Mance should know not to run with such false dichotomies. Jon Snow is very brave and very stupid. But Mance agrees to meet with Jon, alone, after he makes sure Jon knows they know how little the Wall has left.

A horn. One that Mance, at least, thinks is the Horn of Winter.

So, part of what drives Rayder is a need to protect all the people North of the Wall from the Others. Even the giants can’t fight them. And there’s the deal – let them south, or the horn sounds in three days. And we find out if indeed it’s the Horn of Winter. If so, shaka, when the walls fell.

And suddenly something coming from the east. Wights? Not wights, but men. Men in black. Iron men. That’s interesting, but probably just means armored.

And Jon will have to midwife the birth of Mance Rayder’s child. What caused the skinchanger to scream like that, though?

Something about a king – is this Stannis, come to defend the Wall? It’s as confusing as a reader as it is for the Wildlings. Yellow banners with red, no description of the device. Sounds like Stannis.

And Stannis it is. You know what, credit where it’s due.

Arya: Well, they’ve found some of Gregor’s men, it seems. The Tickler and Polliver give the news of Joffrey’s death. I think Arya might recover Needle.

It must be an interesting thing to hear that someone is out there pretending to be you and going off to marry the Bastard of Bolton. Arya is either going to clamp up, or say something that makes the Hound have to kill these three.

Well, not exactly clamping up, but she kept quiet. But Polliver and the Tickler decide they want to take down the Hound. Not likely.

The fight starts badly for Arya and the Hound, as the Mountain’s men start making slow work out of Sandor. Arya has the squire to deal with. And no blade, because she threw her knife. But that’s what his is for.

Arya gets to do what she’s long wanted to do, and stabs the Tickler in the back. Good girl. And she gets Needle back from Polliver’s corpse, and all is right in Arya’s world again.

They’sre still heading to the Vale. A sisterly reunion in the making. Arya’s prayers have gotten shorter. She’s worried there are no more wolves. Oh sweet girl, there are wolves all over, they’re just hiding.

With Sandor’s injuries going badly, Arya thinks to kill him. Only he’s awake enough to beg her to give him mercy, to try and antagonize her into doing it. Never try to get Arya Stark to do anything – she doesn’t listen. She rides off on him.

Looks like she made it to Saltpans after all. Arya doesn’t look the part of a noblelady, so she gets cheated on the horse. Looks like she’s stuck at port for a bit.

Except the ship is from Braavos, and she says the words and shows the iron coin.

Samwell: Sam and Gilly have met up with Jon again, as well as brothers marching from the west and scattered Wildlings from the battle. It seems a civil war amongst the Night’s Watch might come. There’s a king – King Stannis has taken a seat up at the Wall. Wonder what’s become of Janos Slynt then.

Sam loves Gilly, and though he’s true to his words he seeks Jon’s advice. He wants to protect Gilly and the baby by sending them to Highgarden as own. Bran and his entourage are nowhere to be found – probably beyond the Wall with Coldhands.

So Slynt’s in the running for Lord Commander of the Wall. That’s probably the worst possible outcome. Sam swore secrecy on Bran’s life.

Another vote, and Janos Slynt inches closer to victory as another opponent steps down and pledges his support. Sam suggests to Pyp and Edd that someone needs to talk to Pyke and Denys and get one of them to drop and support the other. Elections at their finest.

Jon: And here Jon meets Melisandre, who brings word that King Stannis wants to meet with him. Stannis at least believes Jon is no turncloak, and it seems he doesn’t trust Janos Slynt. Is he going to try and get Jon to declare in the choosing?

So the skinchanger was in the eagle when it burned, and that’s what caused the reaction. Interesting. Jon stands as the defense for the Wildlings, it would seem. Stannis wants to know if they have honor.

So, Stannis wants to legitimize Jon Snow as well, and make him lord of Winterfell. But Jon is a very honest sort, and unlikely to do it. Stannis plans to settle Brandon’s Gift with giants and Wildlings. And marry his new Lord of Winterfell to Val.

Tyrion: Jaime’s come to call, which means an escape may be in the making.

Indeed, that’s exactly in the making. For all his kingslaying Jaime is a good brother. Well, except that business about Tysha, which he finally reveals to Tyrion. She was a crofter’s daughter, no more and no less. Tywin’s doing, all of it, just to hurt Tyrion. Tywin Lannister, everybody.

It’s an exchange of truths between brothers. And Tyrion tells Jaime about Cersei’s liaisons, and tells him he killed Joffrey. Well, an exchange of mostly truths then.

Varys and Littlefinger, playing games behind the scenes. Sansa is to be Littlefinger’s piece, Tyrion Varys’s; at least, that’s how the two think it.

They go through the deepest dungeon and emerge under the Tower of the Hand, and it seems Tyrion has an idea to kill his father in his sleep. Two hundred and thirty rungs.

A place made for dwarves indeed. Tyrion learns just how much might be heard. And he finds Shae in the Tower. She’s wearing Tywin’s chain, which he uses to kill her.

It’s time to become the kinslayer you’ve been fingered as, Tyrion. Tywin can’t even remember Tysha, or if he can, only enough to refer to her as a whore and rouse Tyrion’s ire. Goodbye Tywin, you were a terrible father.

Samwell: Audience with King Stannis, this time with the power players of the Wall. Stannis is nothing if not an impatient man, and he doesn’t suffer the flattery of idiots like Slynt either.

Stannis means to get on with War against the Others, but the contenders for Lord Commander don’t seem to be picking up on that. He’s also about to tell them about his plans to settle the Gift.

He also has his eyes on the sixteen abandoned castles of the watch. He thinks to have Jon take Winterfell, resume control of the North, and send enough men to garrison them, it seems. Aemon knows what he means, but he does not recognize Stannis as Azor Ahai – and he’s right not to.

And here we get something of a real explanation on the Others and the wights, explicit in the text. Dragonglass works for the Others, but the wights need to be taken with steel and fire.

Aemon asks for the sword to be presented – which should confirm to him and Sam that Stannis isn’t the reincarnated prince of prophecy. He also, without telling Sam as much, gives tacit consent for Sam to try and prevent Slynt from winning.

He starts with Pyke, who doesn’t want the job but intends to spite Malliser rather than let him have it. And who will he support? Choosing is a bastard.

Malliser is as intransigent as Pyke. And as uninterested personally in the job as well.

But Sam’s smart, and gives a lie worth saving the Wall from the possibility of Slynt.

Jon: Ah, he’ll be Lord Commander in truth soon enough.

Memories of Robb, and Catelyn’s disapproval, and Ned are tempting, but I don’t think tempting enough.

Jon comes upon Thorne trying to press another man to the support of Janos Slynt.

Jon thinks of Val, of sons, of Gilly and Sam, and he does seem to be tempted. Enough to realize he’s wanted nothing more all his life than to be Robb, basically. And then Ghost returns. Ghost, the snow wolf.

It certainly causes a commotion, as Thorne and Slynt are threatened by his nomination and even more threatened by his appearance in the hall.

The ravens love Jon, always repeating his name. And Mormont’s old raven is no different, proclaiming “Snow” before the choosing.

It’s a landslide, and Jon now stands to disappoint Stannis.

Sansa: Life in the Eyrie is cold, and lonely, and not as promised. In the snow, she remembers family. And she makes a Winterfell of snow.

It’s Littlefinger who gives her the trick needed to make the bridges. He’s working his way into her trust very, very smoothly.

Backtalk, from Sansa? That’s some heretofore unseen courage.

And there we have it. Littlefinger the kiddie diddler. And little Robert Arryn comes both as pain and comfort. Littlefinger can’t move on her with him present, but he also proceeds to destroy the snow castle.

The little tyrant collapses when Sansa tears his doll up, though she didn’t mean to. He hates her already, not that he likes anyone but his mother. Sansa spikes the doll’s head on a stake, Joffrey-like.

Lysa has words for Sansa. She doesn’t care about the doll, but thinks Sansa a seductress. She saw the kiss, and thinks the world of Littlefinger. And if we didn’t have proof that Lysa had lost her mind, we have it now. She’s as mad as Viserys and Aerys.

There’s no winning here for Sansa. She tries to give her aunt what she seems to want, and that just enrages her more. Enough to take her to the Moon Door and see if Sansa wants to fly.

Littlefinger to the rescue, I guess. Not that he’s a rescuer one would want.

Tansy. There we go, that’s the truth of it. That’s what Hoster Tully was muttering about. And Lysa poisoned her husband herself. Even better.

Ah, there’s the trick. Littlefinger shoves Lysa to her death, blames the singer, and now has Sansa and Rob Arryn to himself. What fun.

Epilogue: One of old Lord Walder’s sons is on a mission. Lord Walder will provide for all the Freys, but his brood are not so family-oriented.

Merrett’s tale is a tale of disappointment and of the doom of the Freys. There’s nothing good in the works for them at all. If he can just get Petyr Pimple back to the Twins, he might be able to live relatively comfortably when his father dies.

It’s King Robert’s men who have the boy, and they aren’t like to be good to Merrett. Not for his role in breaking the guest right.

So it is. Petyr’s dead, and Merrett will obviously be killed shortly. The outlaws want to know first, though, if he knows where the Hound (and thus Arya) is.

Not the best question for Merrett, who won’t know anything.

They have no witness. Except Thoros of Myr must have brought her back. Lady Catelyn walks again. And Merrett Frey hangs.

End of book impressions

Okay, time to take a breather. Sounds like, from what people say, the next two books are something of a breather from the very hectic and packed action of this and the previous books. Which is good. A breakneck pace like this is just unsustainable in the long run.

It was great, no doubt about it, and I look forward to seeing what comes next. It’s not like nothing’s going to happen ever again if the pace drops off a bit.

But before I start A Feast for Crows, I have some reflections to make.

This book has been a whirlwind and true to its title. A lot of things have happened here, things which need time to sort out before the next round of action begins. I wouldn’t expect the books to keep this pace at all, and I think Martin would be trying too hard if he did so.

So much death, so much changed from where we started. Near the beginning I commented that this book would have Robb trying to crawl up from his lowest point and thinking Joffrey’s wedding would be red. I never expected both to die. But all men must die.

My head hurts. It may be the lack of sleep, but it’s just as likely the huge amount of narrative movement made by this book. We started at four kings (and one queen in exile), and now we’re at two and a queen in exile who is content to stay put for the moment. One of the two is an eight year old.

If ever Westeros were ready to receive Dany, now would be the time; she, however, doesn’t feel ready. She will practice with Meereen first. She’s a smart, practical queen so far, that much for certain. There might be a touch of madness about her, but it seems to be a madness for justice in a world that is thoroughly unjust. Again, so far at least.

And as far away from her as possible, Jon Snow now has the Wall. Well, he has it and Stannis. A political conundrum for the Night’s Watch, which is interesting due to their professed apolitical nature. That was always going to bite them, though.

There’s a lot that needs to be sorted through, not least of which is who might be returning as viewpoint characters and who might be new.

Returning, I expect some number from Jon Snow, Jaime Lannister, Sansa, Arya, Dany, and Tyrion. Perhaps not all, but some.

We may see Sam again, but now that he’s back at the Wall that may not be necessary. Part of what makes a viewpoint worth having, beyond the character, is where the character is. I don’t expect Catelyn’s viewpoint either. Nor Theon.

Bran’s a different thing entirely. We’ll probably see him and the others again, but he might show up late to lend more mystery to what he’s doing.

And with Stannis up at the Wall, and Davos at Eastwatch, there’s not much point in having Davos’s point of view, unless he uses the opportunity to move against his king.

We may have some new viewpoints, however. With Tywin and Joffrey dead, I expect Cersei won’t be leaving for Casterly Rock. But she’s now a competing interest in the life of Tommen, opposite Jaime, which means her voice has compelling reason to be here. If we don’t get Theon’s viewpoint, we may get the viewpoint of the girl sent up north to be Arya Stark. We may get some entirely new characters altogether.

Edric Storm seems a potential candidate for a viewpoint down the line, and Gendry might not hurt as well. Maybe not in the next book, but the fifth?

We’re already full up, though, so it might be we drop some of the expected returners, pick one or two we’ve met, and maybe intro a new character or two for viewpoints. Let’s say two new ones, Jaime, Cersei, Jon, Bran, Arya, Dany, and Theon/fake Arya.

It would seem that much of this next book, judging from the title, will be focused more on the aftermath of this war, such as it is. Things look ready to quiet down, at least until we see Dany get on the move again and Stannis’s next course of action. The Others are likely to keep him waiting.

You know, after three books of this, I’ve found that the more you know the less you know. I managed to put together some pretty good predictions very early on with nothing more than narrative instinct and a shoestring. Now? Now the story is becoming much less conventional, and much more splintered, and far too layered to be subject to easy speculation. But maybe the reboot of the conflict now that so many sides have been trimmed down will help make it easier to make predictions again.

There’s a reason my predictions have become little and less, and it’s not just a sense of exhaustion at the prospect of trying. That’s part of it. At the same time, the whole thing got so tangled so fast it became difficult to untie any thread and follow it to an end. The Gordian knot needs to be cut, not untied, and Stannis has provided that cut.

Now the strong powers are three, and there are wildcards, but the narrative appears ready to smooth out in some respects once more. I’ll have more to say once I get through the opening section of the next book, when I can see what the shape of things is as we enter the new chapter.

I had meant at one point to comment about Joffrey’s sword – the red would be appropriate to an Azor Ahai. Joffrey’s probably buried with his, but Jaime has given his to Brienne and it’s the same sort of fire-kissed looking sword. Who knows, right?



Things of importance:
* Jaime begins writing his history in the White Book.
* Brienne is heading out to find and defend Sansa Stark. She has Jaime’s sword.
* Arya has found her Braavosi.
* Catelyn Stark walks again.
* Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch.
* Lysa Arryn is dead.
* Stannis is manning the Wall.

Predictions pulled out of my ass:
* Jaime probably is going to write of his and Cersei’s relationship in the book. Whatever he wants.
* The War of Five Kings is done, for now. With Stannis standing at the Wall, and Tommen only eight and without his grandfather, it’s only going to be scattered elements carrying on for now. But sooner or later one of the Starks is likely to emerge publicly – but not until after Roose Bolton and his son are dealt with.
* Brienne is educated. She’ll have to think of the Eyrie first, I think. All that’s left is to see what or who stands in her way, and what she’s to do once she finds Sansa.

Dany’s Threes:
Three heads: Three identities. Mother of dragons and child of storms are obvious – the third, though… I’ll have to go look things over again, but perhaps Azor Ahai is a possibility. Of course, this one’s most open and could have several meanings.
She thinks: Herself and two others to ride her dragons.
Three fires: life, death, love. There’s the obvious fire of Drogo’s funeral – the fire of life. The other two will come. No predictions as yet.
Three mounts: To bed, to dread, to love. Drogo was to love. Irri seems a good enough bedmate.
Three treasons: For blood, for gold, for love. All three seem to have been in motion or completed before the prophecy. Jorah seems to have betrayed her for love, love of home. For blood, I’m on board with Mirri Maz Duur now. Depending on what happens with Illyrio Mopatis, we might have a winner for gold.
She thinks: Mirri Maz Duur for blood. Jorah for love.

Azor Ahai: “When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.”

Still Beric.

[JustSomeGuy]

Out of curiosity, what makes you think berric?

[SaintRidley]

At the moment, it's mostly the association with a flaming sword that isn't a complete crock. Although I have been thinking the fire might be less literal lately - perhaps Brienne might be the one, wielding the sword Jaime gave her and its red bits. In the right light, I could see that having a fiery glint. That's more or less it. He's basically the only candidate who even remotely seems to fit the bill so far.

[Tev]

Well, Brienne was born on some island next to the Stormlands, right? Salt and smoke isn't that far fetched for her . . . never thought about it

And I felt very similarly with regards to predictions and "where are we headed next" at the end of book 3. It was really a storm of events

[hamlet]

If it matters at all in your predictification tendancies, it says somewhere in the text (or possibly in a commentary by the author, but I think the text) that Valyrian Steel is like frozen dragon fire. Or maybe that's the Obsidian. Or both.

But in any case, there's strong speculation that one of the things that can kill an Other is Valyrian Steel. We have yet to see this tested.

And Beric is still, in my eye, an interesting guess in terms of the Azor Ahai. It's not the one that I picked originally, or the one I favor now, but it's interesting and I really wouldn't put it past Martin to do it that way. Also, keep in mind the similarity between the various prophecies. I've always been of the opinion that, on some level, they're all the same prophecy, or at least all three talking about the same thing.

[Eldan]

One shoudl also keep in mind the possibility that the prophecy may just be nonsense.

[Aedilred]

On viewpoint characters - this is not really a spoiler, and it's mentioned in the foreword to both AFfC and ADwD - the current viewpoint characters are split up and some don't appear in A Feast for Crows at all. The narrative runs simultaneously for the bulk of the two books, and only the last handful of chapters in A Dance with Dragons really move the action on from A Feast for Crows.

There are some new viewpoint characters, which I won't spoil (some existing characters who now get a PoV, and some new characters), but among the existing principal PoV characters:

Spoiler: Just in case

Show

Jaime, Sansa, Arya and Sam are in A Feast for Crows and Jon, Tyrion, Daenerys and Bran are in A Dance with Dragons (although some AFfC viewpoints are revisited in the last couple of chapters)

[Emperordaniel]

Just thought I'd point out that, as far as we know, the redness in the blades given to Jaime and Joffrey comes from the fact that they were made by Tobho Mott (Gendry's old master). When we first met him in Ned's PoV in A Game of Thrones, he claimed to be able to add color to metal without painting it, giving the green suit of armor he made for Renly as an example; the next time we hear from him is in A Storm of Swords, when Tywin has him melt down Ice - Mott being the only smith in King's Landing able to rework Valyrian steel without removing the qualities that make it "Valyrian" - and reforge it into two new red-tinted Valyrian weapons for his son and grandson.

[LibraryOgre]

Just thought I'd point out that, as far as we know, the redness in the blades given to Jaime and Joffrey comes from the fact that they were made by Tobho Mott (Gendry's old master). When we first met him in Ned's PoV in A Game of Thrones, he claimed to be able to add color to metal without painting it, giving the green suit of armor he made for Renly as an example; the next time we hear from him is in A Storm of Swords, when Tywin has him melt down Ice - Mott being the only smith in King's Landing able to rework Valyrian steel without removing the qualities that make it "Valyrian" - and reforge it into two new red-tinted Valyrian weapons for his son and grandson.

In that case, I wonder if the red was his own comment on the sword having been stolen from the Starks.

[Lethologica]

Lannister red for a Lannister sword. Blood red for the blood of the Starks. Who knows.

[SaintRidley]

So Thug Notes now has an episode devoted to A Game of Thrones. This makes me endlessly happy.

[An Enemy Spy]

Jaime's thought about being able to write whatever he wants isn't so much an intention of writing something in the White Book so much as it is a decision to take control of his life. When Jaime was young, he looked up to knights like Ser Arthur Dayne and wanted nothing more than to become like he was, and seeing his entry in the White Book is yet another reminder of how short he's fallen of that ideal. Jaime was a hero and the world spit on him for it. How often in these books does anyone ever call him by his actual name instead of just "Kingslayer"? I bet somebody has brought up that act of his almost every single day since it happened, and since everyone treated him like he had no honor no matter what he did, Jaime stopped trying to act with honor.
So when he realizes that he has the power to write his own entry in the White Book, he realizes that he still has the power to write his own future. He doesn't have to be the man he was anymore. He can live up to the ideals that he'd given up on a long time ago.

[tomandtish]

There are many reasons I hear people saying they dislike Cat that I think are dumb. What she put Jon through is not one of them. While, I'm willing to give her some leniency for her "It should have been you" comment (she was unstable after nearly losing a child). It's not a lot of leniency. And her general mistreatment in general are all valid reasons to dislike her.

I don't know how much Cat really did mistreat Jon. She doesn't seem to have been abusive (that one snap aside), just cold. On the other hand she didn't behave like a mother towards him, obviously, but then I can hardly blame her for that.

Compare Cersei, who when Robert suggested he might bring his bastard daughter to court threatened to kill her, and almost certainly did kill a number of other bastards of his (the twins at Casterly Rock, even aside from any killed in the purge after Robert's death).

While, you can certainly make a case that Cat's actions toward Jon are actually warranted (go look at the history of bastards that try to supplant their legitimate siblings. It happened in real life, it happened in ASOIAF. Hell, Shakespeare even wrote a play about the phenomenon)

But in general, I think if, in order to make a person's actions appear decent you have to compare them to Cersei, you've already lost the moral high ground.

Aedilred and Dienekes sum it up pretty well. Most wives today wouldn't react well to their husbands bringing home a child by another woman and saying Oh by the way, he's mine and going to be living here". And she doesn't have the options that modern women do. Her shame gets put in front of her every time she sees Jon.

And since Jon is acknowledged, there's always a risk he could do something that gets him legitimized. And if that happens he's a threat to Robb.

Yeah, I think Ned's biggest and most inexplicable mistake was not taking Renly's advice when Robert was dying. Renly basically laid out for him what Ned needed to do and why and Ned didn't go for it because... some kind of incredibly counterproductive loyalty to Robert in wanting to wait until he was dead before taking action? Not trusting Renly? (And yet trusting Littlefinger). He says he doesn't want to drag frightened children from their beds, but these are the same children who would have been bundled terrified into exile by Cersei had Robert returned hale and hearty, so he hasn't really thought that through. Hiring the Gold Cloaks was a reasonably clever move, although trusting Littlefinger to act on his behalf wasn't wise, but all it meant was that he was fighting a battle in the morning that had been lost the night before.

When I reread those sections, I'm more and more convinced he decides to trust Littlefinger because he knows Littlefinger loves Cat. Unfortunately, he thinks of it in the same terms he would.

"I love her so I wouldn't want to do anything to hurt her. He loves her, so he won't want to do anything to hurt her either, which means he won't hurt me". Needless to say, he calls that wrong.

[ryuplaneswalker]

So Thug Notes now has an episode devoted to A Game of Thrones. This makes me endlessly happy.

Thug notes? I LOVE THUG NOTES, Give a playa some love G

*high five*

[kida]

You might want to consider alternative reading order for books 4&5. since only part of the character appear in book 4 and the other half in book 5 the timeline is a little messed up.
You could look at the following for alternative reading order:
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/quest...-books-4-and-5

[TechnOkami]

You could just alternate reading chapters between both, for great confusion. I'm on Twitch way too much...

[Killer Angel]

End of book impressions

Okay, time to take a breather. Sounds like, from what people say, the next two books are something of a breather from the very hectic and packed action of this and the previous books. Which is good. A breakneck pace like this is just unsustainable in the long run.

I don't agree.
The saga was already long... 2000 filler pages (well, I'm exaggerating) are too much for my tastes.

[An Enemy Spy]

I don't agree.
The saga was already long... 2000 filler pages (well, I'm exaggerating) are too much for my tastes.

Books four and five are anything but filler. There is a lot going on in them, even if they aren't as action heavy as books two and three.

[Legato Endless]

This should be probably moved to spoilers or personal messages. Even if we keep things vague, it's a bit gauche if we start discussing the relative merits of the books before Ridley has started them.

[Tev]

I don't know what would you consider as filler, when character going in actual circles doesn't cut it.

Also

Spoiler: you know what I'm going to whine about

Show

Meereen stuff is so forgettable that no matter how much background it gives to events happening at the end of book 5, it's just pointless.

GRRM is simply slowly turning into babbling grandpa.

[Seerow]

Books four and five are anything but filler. There is a lot going on in them, even if they aren't as action heavy as books two and three.

There's still stuff going on... but the story they tell could have been told without losing much of importance in a third of the space. There is a -ton- of filler in those last two books. We do not need 2000 pages of setup for a climax that we're still waiting on years and years later.

[JustSomeGuy]

GRRM is simply slowly turning into babbling grandpa.

Spoiler: Martin's latest teaser chapter is up

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"We can't bust heads like we used to, but we have our ways. One trick is to tell them stories that don't go anywhere. Like the time I took the fairy to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe so I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on them. Give me five bees for a quarter you'd say. Now where were we, oh ya. The important thing was that I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn't have white onions because if the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow onions."

Everytime he writes 'onion', a previously important character dies.

[Killer Angel]

This should be probably moved to spoilers or personal messages. Even if we keep things vague, it's a bit gauche if we start discussing the relative merits of the books before Ridley has started them.

If you think it will be better, fine for me. That said, it's a spoiler without any plot content

Books four and five are anything but filler. There is a lot going on in them, even if they aren't as action heavy as books two and three.

Spoiler

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hence the "I'm exaggerating".
Yes, lot of things happen, but the plot widens (adding subplots not always so interesting or memorable), instead of closing things left pending. And for all those subplots that are now open, there will be need of further development...

[CarpeGuitarrem]

We all know the only reason we're getting filler arcs is because we're waiting for the manga to catch up.

[SaintRidley]

I think I'm going to go with publication order, simply for the ease of bookkeeping. I'm going to save the combined order for when I decide to read through the series again in the future.

[Logic]

I think I'm going to go with publication order, simply for the ease of bookkeeping. I'm going to save the combined order for when I decide to read through the series again in the future.

I think that is probably a good idea. Though, if you have certain favorite characters, you might hear from them at all in book 4.

[Legato Endless]

We all know the only reason we're getting filler arcs is because we're waiting for the manga to catch up.

I don't know. I think the show made a good choice when they cut out the tournament arc for Jonouchi-kun to become Lord Commander. Granted, this did push back the epic fight between the Bishoujo Clegane brothers. I know Gregor-sama has deeper quiet feelings, but I just can't get over Hound-san's scar.

If you think it will be better, fine for me. That said, it's a spoiler without any plot content.

I know, it's not the spoilers though as it's the perception coloring. Ridley obviously doesn't live in a vacuum, but I'd prefer to keep Ridley relatively untainted to give reactions free of the fandom feedback loop. Fandom is wonderful thing, but one of it's less maligned negatives is it's tendency to dampen original thought. (although people complain all the time about unpopular thoughts being suppressed, I'm drawing a bit of distinction here)

I don't know what would you consider as filler, when character going in actual circles doesn't cut it.

Spoiler: you know what I'm going to whine about

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Meereen stuff is so forgettable that no matter how much background it gives to events happening at the end of book 5, it's just pointless.

Spoiler

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Eh, Meereen isn't pointless. It's dull as hell, but it does actually exist for a number of reasons. There are other subplots that do look cuttable, this one more needs a rewrite. I mean, Danny waltzing into Westeros and just being a savant at ruling would be a big weird in this series.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler

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Eh, Meereen isn't pointless. It's dull as hell, but it does actually exist for a number of reasons. There are other subplots that do look cuttable, this one more needs a rewrite. I mean, Danny waltzing into Westeros and just being a savant at ruling would be a big weird in this series.

Spoiler

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For that matter, Meereen tells us that Dany would probably be terrible for Westeros and, if anything, is ready for an antagonistic role.

[smuchmuch]

I alway though Jorah was the betrayal for gold, if memory serves he was payed when he sold her to Varys ?