Why so many people complain about comic books they don't read?

[Shinken]

So with the recent announcements of a woman taking Mjolnir and Falcon becoming Captain America, I've seen plenty of people complaining in social media. What surprises me, however, is that these people have clearly not been reading those same comics (since both changes have been foreshadowed for a lot of time). This seems to happen a lot with comic books - people complain about books they don't even read. Why is that?

[hamlet]

Complaining is the great human pass time. If you take away the right of a human to complain, I do believe that they'd explode from pent up wangst.

Actually, I find the concept of a woman Thor to be kind of nifty. Not that I've read the comics at all, mind, but just sayin'.

[Chen]

At first glance I thought they were changing the people in some sort of weird reboot. After reading the people are just passing their mantles (so to speak), I'm surprised people are getting upset. Doesn't this type of thing happen all the time in comics?

And yeah as to to complaining part, people love complaining about everything. You also have the misogynists and racists making a point here because...well they're changing a white male character (Thor and Cap) into a female and a black man, respectively.

[Broken Crown]

This seems to happen a lot with comic books - people complain about books they don't even read. Why is that?

They probably like the books they do read.

[Aotrs Commander]

They probably like the books they do read.

And quite probably, these books they are complain about that they don't read are coming at the expense of the the comics they do like to read.

I know, at any rate, my number of comic titles has snowballed down to three currently (and two of those are My Little Pony), largely because DC and Marvel just stopped producing stories that I wanted to read.

[DigoDragon]

Something I find interesting/annoying is that we also vote with our money. So to go buy the comic just to legitimately say we don't like it means the makers of the comic still get the sales.
Thus it's another conundrum in life.

[endoperez]

People dislike it when the things they've internalized as facts are challenged.

Superman was born in Krypton, is the last kryptonian, and loves Lois Lane. Superman's alias Clark Kent is a reporter.

Peter Parker married Mary Jane and his uncle is dead. And he's not the villain Otto Octavius.

Wolverine is a mutant.


Change these things, and people feel a sense of wrongness.

BTW, all these things are untrue and false in relatively recent comics. Well, except Uncle Ben - he is still dead.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I usually just complain about Spider-Man, because Spider-Man has had some really famously stupid plots.

(Ultimate Spidey is great though and I did read that for a while).

[BeerMug Paladin]

People dislike it when the things they've internalized as facts are challenged.

Yup, that's my answer as well. I'd also add that when one becomes a fan of a franchise, it can become a part of one's identity. So things that can feel like drastic changes to that franchise can be interpreted as somewhat of a personal attack.

[Tengu_temp]

Because status quo is god and change is the devil.

You also have the misogynists and racists making a point here because...well they're changing a white male character (Thor and Cap) into a female and a black man, respectively.

Also this.

[kinem]

I don't read the comics, but I watch the TV cartoons and the movies which are based on them. Thus, I have a stake in what happens with the comics.

[huttj509]

I don't read the comics, but I watch the TV cartoons and the movies which are based on them. Thus, I have a stake in what happens with the comics.

But they're already different continuities. In some cases very different.

[kinem]

And if the changes to the comics are temporary stunts like they so often are, so it will remain.

If the changes are real and last, they will filter over to the next generations of shows and movies.

[SaintRidley]

The Thor one is particularly strange to me, for a couple reasons.

First of all, Thor Odinson will still be part of the comic, doing his thing, just not worthy of the hammer or being the God of Thunder.

The big reason, though, is that anyone who's read Thor: God of Thunder should have a good idea of what Aaron's project is with Thor. It's about exploring, through the role of Thor, what it means to be a god, particularly the God of Thunder. For Aaron, it seems strongly to be less a thing that's inborn and more a performative matter. It's the whole reason behind the three Thors in three time periods thing, and even then there's only so much you can do from that angle, since they're all the same person. Bringing in a new Thor who isn't any of them, who's got a fundamentally different life experience, who is visually quite distinct, and who has never been the God of Thunder before opens a lot of new possibilities for exploring that theme.

[Kitten Champion]

Based on what people who have been criticizing these announcements have been saying it's less of an issue of it happening in terms of significance to the comics so much as the inevitable conclusion that it'll be reversed and thus Marvel is cynically manipulating people by introducing a false sense of diversity. This argument is supported by the fact that they introduced these changes first on ABC's The View and The Colbert Report rather than the usual comic news websites, I suspect. Marketing outside the usual bubble is objectionable for roughly the same reason Calvin refuses girls into his tree house.

I don't quite get it myself, because even if this is a "stunt" - which it probably is - that's pretty much what comics have done since the dawn of time and to me, at least, is part of their charm.

I also like the idea of Thor as female. This and the Terrigen Mist bomb were taken straight out of Jim Krueger/Alex Ross' Earth X trilogy, which was pretty cool. If only they could replace Spider-Man with Venom May Parker and give Reed Richards an epic Moses beard, but you can't have everything you want.

[Avilan the Grey]

In this case, I don't care about the changes, because I basically have stopped reading Marvel comics several years ago.

Besides, I had no initial problem with Thor's change.

HOWEVER: With the risk of looking like an old fart, the combination of a female Thor and a black Captain do reek of "desperation to be relevant", which both Marvel and DCC has suffered from over and over again.

Anyway, the true haters make me giggle. It was real fun reading the responses to Fem!Thor in a "Boy at least I'm not even half as annoying as these guys" kind of way.

The thing that gets me the most though, at least with Fem!Thor is that Marvel, yet again, goes public and PROMISES this will be PERMANENT (Yeah, right, I believe you soo much right now). So that means it will last less than 12 months.

[Aotrs Commander]

The thing that gets me the most though, at least with Fem!Thor is that Marvel, yet again, goes public and PROMISES this will be PERMANENT (Yeah, right, I believe you soo much right now). So that means it will last less than 12 months.

Indeed. It will last, at the absolute outside, as long as it takes for the staff to change and somebody to come in who prefers the older versions. As we've seen, even twenty years of continuity is not immune to be hand-wave away by editorial mandate - so this has got no chance. Especially with Cap and Thor featuring heavily in the Marvel cinematic U.

If things are very lucky, you might get an (admittedly fairly much needed) additional nonX-Man female superhero; but starting out from a gender-swapped version of an existing character is usually not a great way to get that.

(And Falcon is an established character, whom one presumes has his own fanbase who may not be that sanguine about him becoming Captain America - or at least some may well not, and it only takes one of them to be writing staff at some point down the line and bam! Falcon's back as Falcon.)



Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they will will shine so much that they becomes the Samual L Fury that largely supplants the original by being so awesome. But given the current standard of Marvel writing and past history... Odds are against that.

[Avilan the Grey]

(And Falcon is an established character, whom one presumes has his own fanbase who may not be that sanguine about him becoming Captain America - or at least some may well not, and it only takes one of them to be writing staff at some point down the line and bam! Falcon's back as Falcon.)

This is another thing. DC was obviously caught completely off guard by the bad reactions to a cured Barbara. She has become a huge thing among paraplegic teens (especially girls) and by revert The Killing Joke and making her Batgirl again a lot of people felt like they were deliberately removing a role model. Of course this was not what DC had in mind, but the fact that they honestly had not understood that this might be the reaction is pretty telling.

[Shinken]

They probably like the books they do read.

Well, several times I have realized I had stopped liking a book and then I complained about it, because I remembered when it was good. Other times, I read bad books to realize what they were about. Complaining about something you haven't read doesn't make much sense, IMHO. How can you have an opinion about something you don't know?

The thing that gets me the most though, at least with Fem!Thor is that Marvel, yet again, goes public and PROMISES this will be PERMANENT (Yeah, right, I believe you soo much right now). So that means it will last less than 12 months.

Where have you read Marvel saying it's going to be permanent? In this interview, Jason Aaron makes it very clear that it is temporary.

[Avilan the Grey]

Where have you read Marvel saying it's going to be permanent? In this interview, Jason Aaron makes it very clear that it is temporary.

Huh. I saw a number of quotes saying "This is the real deal", "This is permanent" and so on. Just like they did with the "OctaviParker" horsehockey.
Well, then i give it 24 months, since they admit it to be temporary.

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, several times I have realized I had stopped liking a book and then I complained about it, because I remembered when it was good. Other times, I read bad books to realize what they were about. Complaining about something you haven't read doesn't make much sense, IMHO. How can you have an opinion about something you don't know?

Very easily. I can sit and safely say that I would dislike Games of Thrones, Call of Duty (any game), rugby or pouring custard into my eyesockets without actually needing to expereince it. If I did, I suppose I might be able to have a more informed dislike - but why should I waste money and money on something I know I'm going to dislike anyway?

This is combined with, as I said earlier, when this sort of thing comes at the expense of (say) Stargate SG-1, C&C and... not playing sports or... not pouring things into my eyesockets (yeah, okay, that analogy didn't work so well. They can't all be gold.)

Hense you will get people complaining about ideas that they don't like without actually wanting to experience them.



I tell you this now, if they decided to replace Jubilee with a, I dunno, [insert nonChinese ethnicity] Molassian bloke, I'd be pretty fracking livid and would be dropping my purchases from Marvel (which now rest entirely on Jubilation's shoulders) and creating all kinds of a stink. Hell, I dropped Wolverine like a hot cake for less when they replaced Wolverine with a younger, equally white male dude (mind you, Daken was just a Richard - I might have been slightly more forgiving if they'd replaced him with Laura, because at least she's a character...)

[Mordar]

I think in addition to the "facts being challenged" idea, there is a sense of "ownership" of the characters that develops over time in the minds of readers - even those that have long since stopped reading that particular character/title/line/media. "You can't change Thor/Spiderman/Captain America/Bob the Hobby Horse! He/She/It should always remain as I remember, and anything else is wrong/bad/evil."

Now, it is worrisome to me that "nerdrage" has become so mainstream as to be easily dismissable as exactly what we think of when we hear the term...because it provides an easy response by which the industry (comic, movie or other) can discount *any* argument against an idea. That anyone who disagrees with any of the changes referenced in this thread can be discounted as sexist, racist or stuck in the past is disappointing and stifling. I think there are a couple of valid arguments against both of the recent Marvel changes (articulated even in this short thread) or perhaps the Fantastic Four film that are being painted as misogynistic or racist just because there is a gender or race/ethnicity swap happening. Are there bigger problems to worry about? Of course. Still, comics...

[Shinken]

Very easily. I can sit and safely say that I would dislike Games of Thrones, Call of Duty (any game), rugby or pouring custard into my eyesockets without actually needing to expereince it. If I did, I suppose I might be able to have a more informed dislike - but why should I waste money and money on something I know I'm going to dislike anyway?

That's not the same. My point is people saying that X happening is "just a gimmick" or that book Y is "the most horrible thing on print" without having read it. The two examples I used are natural ramifications of ongoing storylines, yet people are complaining like it came out of nowhere. It really didn't. They even revealed a cover with Captain Falcon and Mjolnir-less Thor last month.
Again, not liking about something is no reason to bash it. I don't like CoD or any FPS, but why should I waste my time and energy complaining about it? I believe I'm not even the target demographic!

I tell you this now, if they decided to replace Jubilee with a, I dunno, [insert nonChinese ethnicity] Molassian bloke, I'd be pretty fracking livid and would be dropping my purchases from Marvel (which now rest entirely on Jubilation's shoulders) and creating all kinds of a stink. Hell, I dropped Wolverine like a hot cake for less when they replaced Wolverine with a younger, equally white male dude (mind you, Daken was just a Richard - I might have been slightly more forgiving if they'd replaced him with Laura, because at least she's a character...)

I don't think they ever replaced Wolverine with Daken, they both had their books :p

[Aotrs Commander]

I don't think they ever replaced Wolverine with Daken, they both had their books :p

No, they absolutely did. Dakin essentially kicked Wolverine out of his own comic title (which I was getting at the time) and turned it into Dark Wolverine, and it was several months before Wolverine re-started. I was, frankly, pretty furious when I realised that it wasn't going to be a short arc and then back to Wolverine and I stopped getting it the moment I realised. It was a clear marketing decision. It was one of the many conributing factors such that when they decided to end all the X-titles (including, once again, Wolverine), I gave up, and from about four or five Marvel titles, I've dropped down to one and solely becaue Jubilee Is In It and she is my favourite character in anything period. They screw that, I'm really done.

(It is an utterly damning enditement that after nearly twenty years of getting Marvel titles - I started in the mid-late ninties because of the cartoon with Generation X - that I am finding that the My Little Pony comic has provided me with more entertainment in one issue than I got out of the last couple of year's worth of material from most of my X-Men titles: and I realised that I actually was not all that sorry to see them end, so uninteresting they had become.)



...

I looked up, at of morbid interest, to see if Wolverine exists as a title. Apparently, we're onto volume six now (the Dakin incident occurred at end of vol 3).. And Wolverine is apparently running around with a band of criminals or something (despite at last count deciding he was going to run the school as a school not a military academy).

What.

The.

[Expletive].

I just don't even know anymore Marvel, I really just don't.

[SeeDarkly_X]

Here's where I stand on complaining about comics.
I buy them. I read them. What I don't buy I keep up with via trade paperbacks available at the library, wiki updates, etc.
When I have a complaint about some specific element in comics, I can feel confident that I've given it a fair shot or am otherwise well informed about it.

I think when people complain without reading, or even just being informed, they tend to miss the point a lot.
For instance... one recent article on io9 about the upcoming plans for Marvel has the title "Marvel's New Avengers Line-Up Contains Less Than 40% White Dudes."
The point of the article, for what it's worth, is kind of lost in its own poor writing (requiring an update for a major correction, in fact,) however...
the title itself clearly demonstrates the author knows NOTHING about the current line-up of Avenger's titles.
The Mighty Avenger has a roster of 6 black members, 1 Hispanic, and 1 white woman who is usually green. THAT is a roster of ZERO PERCENT "white dudes." And the title has been running for about a year now and is an excellent read. And he was "reporting" on an "Avengers title"... that happened to NOT BE an Avengers Title at all. Shouldn't someone making a comparative statement to other Avenger's titles KNOW something about those other titles? Of course they should.

The point being, yes, people taking the time to complain, criticize, or comment publicly about a thing should absolutely be informed about that thing or they stand to look somewhat foolish at best, truly idiotic at worst.
Actually, I've seen some surpass idiotic... so it can get worse.

[Kitten Champion]

I looked up, at of morbid interest, to see if Wolverine exists as a title. Apparently, we're onto volume six now (the Dakin incident occurred at end of vol 3).. And Wolverine is apparently running around with a band of criminals or something (despite at last count deciding he was going to run the school as a school not a military academy).

What.

The.

[Expletive].

I just don't even know anymore Marvel, I really just don't.

That's... quite simply addressed, Marvel doesn't care about its continuity.

If you're a writer they seem to think worth hiring and have a story to write about a character or team that Marvel thinks will sell, they'll publish it regardless of how it fits consistently or logically within their other titles. Writers pick and choose what they want to use freely from the MCU - past or present - for whatever they're doing. They kind of have to if they want to write so many books independently with the same overlapping characters none of which can theoretically exists simultaneously into any sort of objective time scale, and they're clearly acknowledging that.

It wasn't too long ago that comics featuring Otto Octavius and Peter Parker as Spider-Man were running concurrently. How does that work? They don't care! People are still Peter Parker fans and wanted a book with stories involving him, so they had this other title around while Slott explored his alternative possibility, and if either are mentioned in future issues it's really to the discretion of the authors/editors.

[Avilan the Grey]

I still prefer Marvel's loose grip of it's continuity to DC's half-assed reboots every 3 years that never leads anywhere.

[Aotrs Commander]

That's... quite simply addressed, Marvel doesn't care about its continuity.

If you're a writer they seem to think worth hiring and have a story to write about a character or team that Marvel thinks will sell, they'll publish it regardless of how it fits consistently or logically within their other titles. Writers pick and choose what they want to use freely from the MCU - past or present - for whatever they're doing. They kind of have to if they want to write so many books independently with the same overlapping characters none of which can theoretically exists simultaneously into any sort of objective time scale, and they're clearly acknowledging that.

It wasn't too long ago that comics featuring Otto Octavius and Peter Parker as Spider-Man were running concurrently. How does that work? They don't care! People are still Peter Parker fans and wanted a book with stories involving him, so they had this other title around while Slott explored his alternative possibility, and if either are mentioned in future issues it's really to the discretion of the authors/editors.

It wasn't even the plot continuity issues that bothered me. It was whole Wolverine-is-suddenly-working-with-criminals thing. It's not even really in-character, let alone dealing with anything that's happened in the last, what, twenty years to Wolverine's character. (I suppose if you define "continuity" and "expecting a well-established character to act within a spitting distance of consistently" then maybe it is a continuity issue...)

I guess Marvel has just reached the point where they've screwed it so badly, they are just throwing random ideas at the wall, in the hopes that maybe they can get some readership in from the people who actually like this sort of... subvesion of the ideas? as opposed to the longstanding fans who preferred it when they actually were writing about heroes fighting villains, not each other, y'know?

I mean, they call the ninties the dark age but really, speaking as someone who came IN during the ninties - it wasn't even within spitting distance of how bad things are now.

[Shinken]

I looked up, at of morbid interest, to see if Wolverine exists as a title. Apparently, we're onto volume six now (the Dakin incident occurred at end of vol 3).. And Wolverine is apparently running around with a band of criminals or something (despite at last count deciding he was going to run the school as a school not a military academy).

What.

The.

[Expletive].

I just don't even know anymore Marvel, I really just don't.

He is just working undercover for SHIELD. Last issue, he had Shang Chi and Iron Fist help him meet Death herself so he could overcome his fear, now that he lacks a healing factor. The new Wolverine title is really dynamic, which is what Marvel does these days. You don't need to read the same Wolverine story two hundred times, do you?

Here's where I stand on complaining about comics.
I buy them. I read them. What I don't buy I keep up with via trade paperbacks available at the library, wiki updates, etc.
When I have a complaint about some specific element in comics, I can feel confident that I've given it a fair shot or am otherwise well informed about it.

Buying trades counts as buying.

I think when people complain without reading, or even just being informed, they tend to miss the point a lot.
For instance... one recent article on io9 about the upcoming plans for Marvel has the title "Marvel's New Avengers Line-Up Contains Less Than 40% White Dudes."
The point of the article, for what it's worth, is kind of lost in its own poor writing (requiring an update for a major correction, in fact,) however...
the title itself clearly demonstrates the author knows NOTHING about the current line-up of Avenger's titles.
The Mighty Avenger has a roster of 6 black members, 1 Hispanic, and 1 white woman who is usually green. THAT is a roster of ZERO PERCENT "white dudes." And the title has been running for about a year now and is an excellent read. And he was "reporting" on an "Avengers title"... that happened to NOT BE an Avengers Title at all. Shouldn't someone making a comparative statement to other Avenger's titles KNOW something about those other titles? Of course they should.

That article was pretty terrible, yeah. Mighty Avengers did have Otto Octavius for the first 6 issues or so and has both Jessica Jones and Iron Fist as totally-not-members who are still there every other issue, but I get your point. The worst part is that he for some reason thinks those 11 characters are the line up for the AVengers, when it quite clearly isn't so - can you even imagine Avengers without Captain Marvel anymore? (EDIT: Remender mentioned Steve Rogers is still going to be a member of the Avengers, further confirming those are not the Avengers. Doubt Angela is gonna leave GotG.)

The point being, yes, people taking the time to complain, criticize, or comment publicly about a thing should absolutely be informed about that thing or they stand to look somewhat foolish at best, truly idiotic at worst.
Actually, I've seen some surpass idiotic... so it can get worse.

Couldn't agree more.

That's... quite simply addressed, Marvel doesn't care about its continuity.

If you're a writer they seem to think worth hiring and have a story to write about a character or team that Marvel thinks will sell, they'll publish it regardless of how it fits consistently or logically within their other titles. Writers pick and choose what they want to use freely from the MCU - past or present - for whatever they're doing. They kind of have to if they want to write so many books independently with the same overlapping characters none of which can theoretically exists simultaneously into any sort of objective time scale, and they're clearly acknowledging that.

It wasn't too long ago that comics featuring Otto Octavius and Peter Parker as Spider-Man were running concurrently. How does that work? They don't care! People are still Peter Parker fans and wanted a book with stories involving him, so they had this other title around while Slott explored his alternative possibility, and if either are mentioned in future issues it's really to the discretion of the authors/editors.

Actually, both Spider-Man books with Peter Parker where explicitly labeled as outside continuity. Why would you do that if you didn't care about continuity?

I still prefer Marvel's loose grip of it's continuity to DC's half-assed reboots every 3 years that never leads anywhere.

Strongly agreed.

I guess Marvel has just reached the point where they've screwed it so badly, they are just throwing random ideas at the wall, in the hopes that maybe they can get some readership in from the people who actually like this sort of... subvesion of the ideas? as opposed to the longstanding fans who preferred it when they actually were writing about heroes fighting villains, not each other, y'know?

It's funny, because that's exactly what Wolverine does in his title.

[Kitten Champion]

Actually, both Spider-Man books with Peter Parker where explicitly labeled as outside continuity. Why would you do that if you didn't care about continuity?

Really? The wiki says otherwise. I only read the Captain Marvel team-up because... well, I was a tad attached to the character at the time.

They may be out of canon, but that's such a questionably applied concept at this point that I'm kind of shrugging here.

It wasn't even the plot continuity issues that bothered me. It was whole Wolverine-is-suddenly-working-with-criminals thing. It's not even really in-character, let alone dealing with anything that's happened in the last, what, twenty years to Wolverine's character. (I suppose if you define "continuity" and "expecting a well-established character to act within a spitting distance of consistently" then maybe it is a continuity issue...)

I guess Marvel has just reached the point where they've screwed it so badly, they are just throwing random ideas at the wall, in the hopes that maybe they can get some readership in from the people who actually like this sort of... subvesion of the ideas? as opposed to the longstanding fans who preferred it when they actually were writing about heroes fighting villains, not each other, y'know?

I mean, they call the ninties the dark age but really, speaking as someone who came IN during the ninties - it wasn't even within spitting distance of how bad things are now.

Well, Shinken mentioned that it's just a fake-out, which of course it is.

Still, Wolverine's done quite a lot of morally questionable things since Claremont's Uncanny X-Men in the 80's that, well, calling him an anti-hero isn't exactly absurd. Being the dark horse phlegmatic dude who kills when needed is his shtick.

Anyways, while there are some Marvel titles which certainly fall on the gritty side, there are plenty which don't. It's an eclectic of styles, tones, and general philosophies. She-Hulk, Captain Marvel, FF, Hawkeye, Young Avengers, Nova, Secret Avengers, New Warriors, Silver Surfer, Daredevil (and I'm shocked to have lived to see the day where Daredevil is a lighthearted and somewhat whimsical character since being Millerized), Rocket Raccoon, Superior Foes of Spider-Man, Ms. Marvel, Amazing Spider-Man, A + X, and maybe Spider-Man 2099 -- none of these are dark, gritty, or particularly 90's-ish in any sort of way and came out in the last 3 years as ongoing or completed series. Most of the rest of the Marvel titles are only marginally darker in scope. Infinity, their major event since the relaunch, was entirely just heroes being heroes fighting cosmic villains.


So, I don't see it. I guess. I see some bad comics, but since when haven't there been?