1 rogue/4 "X" arcane class/2 unseen seer/10 arcane trickster dmg

[Donny_Green]

So X= some kind of arcane casting class.

So whats the best arcane class to fill in the X, and why?

In case it matters, the level break down was made with a beguiler in mind.

[toapat]

Wizards or Sorcerers. Beguiler is actually bad at Sneak attack casters because Sneak Attack casting is based off of Ray of Frost.

you need the houserul of non-expended cantrips though.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In terms of pure optimization? Wizard, by a mile.

• Bard could work. You'd probably wind up with a more physical character, but that's not a bad thing.
• Beguiler, as toapat mentioned, doesn't get enough damaging spells to make the sneak attack damage worth it, or the buff spells to enter melee/ranged combat and sneak attack with weapons. It's not a bad choice, but you're not really getting anything you wouldn't be going straight Beguiler. Although if you can expand their list somehow to get a few rays, you'll be fine.
• Dread Necromancer would be... umm... I don't think they get that many ranged touch attack blasty spells. Or sneaky magic. Or Int synergy. Although you would have undead to help with flanking.
• Duskblade* would be a bit odd, but startlingly lethal, I should think. Arcane Channeled Sneak Attack Vamperic Grasp, anyone?
• Sorcerer is bland but functional. Probably your second strongest option, as the tier system would suggestion.
• Warmage* would make a decent sneak attacky blaster, I suppose. You're losing out-of-combat utility spells, but you'll have enough skills to be OK, most likely.

*Note: Not sure if they natively get the divination magic for Unseen Seer.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Volley spells, i.e. spells which make multiple attacks such as Scorching Ray, only add precision damage such as Sneak Attack to the first attack they make. The Rules Compendium updated/clarified this rule, stating that only special abilities, including spells, which take less than a full-round action to activate and make multiple attacks only add precision damage to their first attack. So if a spell takes a full-round action to cast and makes multiple attacks, such as a spontaneously cast spell with a metamagic feat, then every attack it makes gets to add precision damage such as Sneak Attack.

For this reason I'm going to recommend Sorcerer, because Warmage doesn't get Greater Invisibility and Beguiler doesn't get any spells it can sneak attack with. Between Greater Invisibility and Invisible Spell, the +0 metamagic feat that makes it so opponents can't even see the spell's visual effects, will make it so your enemies won't even know where the hits are coming from. Consider grabbing Split Ray as well, in which case I'll recommend Practical Metamagic in RotD to reduce its metamagic cost to only +1 level. The Acidic Splatter reserve feat in CM is also useful for delivering sneak attacks, if you learn the Acid Splash cantrip and get Heighten Spell you can always count your highest level spell slot available when activating that reserve feat.

Get Ancestral Relic in BoED at 3rd level and make it a custom Runestaff on MIC p224. You can put whatever spells you want into that, and even switch around what spells it contains. Make it an Elvencraft (RotW) Composite Longbow with three Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape, so as long as you're holding that you can activate any of those wands. Consider taking Spellwarp Sniper in Complete Scoundrel as well.

[gorfnab]

I would recommend a slightly different set-up:
Rogue or Spellthief 1/ Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF) 5/ Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4
Wizard is great for versatility since it can just keep adding spells to its spellbook. Unseen Seer nets you three divination spells from any list. The obvious choice is Hunter's Eye for more sneak attack damage. Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar are awesome divination spells for any skill heavy caster build. The feat Practiced Spellcaster will offset the CL penalty to non-divination spells from the Divination Spell Power ability.

If you just want to blast with sneak attack damage consider looking into the prestige class Spellwarp Sniper.

Also this handbook may be of some use: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters

[toapat]

I would recommend a slightly different set-up:
Rogue or Spellthief 1/ Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF) 5/ Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4
Wizard is great for versatility since it can just keep adding spells to its spellbook. Unseen Seer nets you three divination spells from any list. The obvious choice is Hunter's Eye for more sneak attack damage. Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar are awesome divination spells for any skill heavy caster build. The feat Practiced Spellcaster will offset the CL penalty to non-divination spells from the Divination Spell Power ability.

If you just want to blast with sneak attack damage consider looking into the prestige class Spellwarp Sniper.

Also this handbook may be of some use: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters

Ive never understood the logic of going deep unseen Seer. 3 spells you probably either can just scribe, werent going to make significant enough use of to justify, or was already going to be taken.

comparitively Trickster has better skillpoints/level and more class skills. also more sneak attack for boosting ray of frost into the most stupidly overpowered cantrip in the game

[Flickerdart]

Ive never understood the logic of going deep unseen Seer. 3 spells you probably either can just scribe, werent going to make significant enough use of to justify, or was already going to be taken.

comparitively Trickster has better skillpoints/level and more class skills. also more sneak attack for boosting ray of frost into the most stupidly overpowered cantrip in the game

You can grab divinations off other lists. Good luck trying to scribe Ranger spells.

Comparatively, being able to deal a few d6es of damage on Ray of Frost doesn't make a good character. Even if your DM houserules cantrips to be unlimited use, a warlock still does more damage than you.

[Troacctid]

Ive never understood the logic of going deep unseen Seer. 3 spells you probably either can just scribe, werent going to make significant enough use of to justify, or was already going to be taken.

comparitively Trickster has better skillpoints/level and more class skills. also more sneak attack for boosting ray of frost into the most stupidly overpowered cantrip in the game

Seer has better skill points per level. It's 6 + Int to Trickster's 4 + Int.

[Donny_Green]

I would recommend a slightly different set-up:
Rogue or Spellthief 1/ Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF) 5/ Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4
Wizard is great for versatility since it can just keep adding spells to its spellbook. Unseen Seer nets you three divination spells from any list. The obvious choice is Hunter's Eye for more sneak attack damage. Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar are awesome divination spells for any skill heavy caster build. The feat Practiced Spellcaster will offset the CL penalty to non-divination spells from the Divination Spell Power ability.

If you just want to blast with sneak attack damage consider looking into the prestige class Spellwarp Sniper.

Also this handbook may be of some use: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters

Yeah but did you notice that 9 levels of Unseen Seer bumps your caster down by 3 for any "non divination" spells. It starts with the level 3 class feature.

[Donny_Green]

Also.. is it really all about the sneak attack? Cause that's alot of the answers I'm getting.

but what about utility. I figure a beguiler can use sneak attack as his major damage, and still possesses enough utility to break into something like a medevil fort knox.

[sideswipe]

Wizards or Sorcerers. Beguiler is actually bad at Sneak attack casters because Sneak Attack casting is based off of Ray of Frost.

you need the houserul of non-expended cantrips though.

or a reserve feat? much better.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also.. is it really all about the sneak attack? Cause that's alot of the answers I'm getting.

but what about utility. I figure a beguiler can use sneak attack as his major damage, and still possesses enough utility to break into something like a medevil fort knox.

That's what it looked like you wanted from the build you're proposing.

[toapat]

a warlock still does more damage than you.

isnt that really the case for every caster including vs the Mailman

also the op only posted the spread upto lvl 17, i assume he would return to US for the last 3 levels, which gives you 2/3 of the divinations and only -1 to CL for non-divinations.



the specific reserve feat is Acidic splash, the others dont use ranged touch attacks.

[Donny_Green]

That's what it looked like you wanted from the build you're proposing.

Indeed I did, and tried to get the most out of each class with earliest entry to Arcane Trickster. If I take my first level as a beguiler, I get trap finding; which allows me to choose use poison ACF for the rogue. I could then use poison tipped bolts with a hand crossbow (without poisoning myself).

After that it's all about skill points and spells, for everything else. To get around in hard situations, to defend myself against the enemy, and to create flatfooted/flanked conditions on said enemy or enemies.

But I wonder if this isn't overkill in the utility department, and I could accomplish most of the same without using the best utility casters in the game.

[toapat]

Indeed I did, and tried to get the most out of each class with earliest entry to Arcane Trickster. If I take my first level as a beguiler, I get trap finding; which allows me to choose use poison ACF for the rogue. I could then use poison tipped bolts with a hand crossbow (without poisoning myself).

After that it's all about skill points and spells, for everything else. To get around in hard situations, to defend myself against the enemy, and to create flatfooted/flanked conditions on said enemy or enemies.

But I wonder if this isn't overkill in the utility department, and I could accomplish most of the same without using the best utility casters in the game.

its not overkill, its just incorrect. alot of the advantage of being a Seer/Trickster build is that you can actually use weaponlike spells effectively. at the higher end you use Acidic splatter in place of weaponlike spells entirely because you never have to expend the acid spell you are using to power that feat.

Beguiler doesnt have access to the spells needed for either Acidic Splatter or have Ray of Frost.

you also get more utility out of Wizard/Sorc (if you can retrain spells each level) than anything else

[Flickerdart]

isnt that really the case for every caster including vs the Mailman

No. It's trivial to out-damage warlocks. But 1d3+6d6 isn't how you do it. At the late levels when you get that much SA, 6d6 (average 17.5) damage is a joke, and is certainly not needed to "use weapon-like spells effectively" when the selfsame Disintegrate you've had since level 13 hits for 40d6.

[paperarmor]

In terms of pure optimization? Wizard, by a mile.

• Duskblade* would be a bit odd, but startlingly lethal, I should think. Arcane Channeled Sneak Attack Vamperic Grasp, anyone?

*Note: Not sure if they natively get the divination magic for Unseen Seer.

It depends on if both Divination spells have to be first level or not. If not then Rogue 1/ Duskblade 5/ Unseen seer10/X caster prc 4 can use a combination of the afore mentioned spells/class features with hunter's eye and staggering stike and be completly crazy.

[toapat]

No. It's trivial to out-damage warlocks. But 1d3+6d6 isn't how you do it. At the late levels when you get that much SA, 6d6 (average 17.5) damage is a joke, and is certainly not needed to "use weapon-like spells effectively" when the selfsame Disintegrate you've had since level 13 hits for 40d6.

the point is that Disintegrate hits once and is gone, and the point of putting sneak attack on weaponlike spells (or more accurately, to use infinite ones such as PF style cantrip Ray of Frost or the Acidic Splash reserve feat) is just the most efficient way to boost them, at between hunter's eye and the 8d6 the op's build would get, +14d6 per WLS isnt bad. the point was that is that it is not the reality of the situation that the warlock is a better offensive blaster with lower minimum requirement of investment then anyone else.

[Flickerdart]

the point is that Disintegrate hits once and is gone, and the point of putting sneak attack on weaponlike spells (or more accurately, to use infinite ones such as PF style cantrip Ray of Frost or the Acidic Splash reserve feat) is just the most efficient way to boost them, at between hunter's eye and the 8d6 the op's build would get, +14d6 per WLS isnt bad. the point was that is that it is not the reality of the situation that the warlock is a better offensive blaster with lower minimum requirement of investment then anyone else.

Do people still labour under the misapprehension that sustained low damage is somehow a viable way to kill stuff? I thought we got over this back in 2004?

[toapat]

Do people still labour under the misapprehension that sustained low damage is somehow a viable way to kill stuff? I thought we got over this back in 2004?

is (SL+14)d6/attack really that low? i know its not UBercharger's 3k/attack or the Mailman's Slay everything in range

[Flickerdart]

is (SL+14)d6/attack really that low? i know its not UBercharger's 3k/attack or the Mailman's Slay everything in range

Yes. Let's say that you somehow had enough build resources to persist Hunter's Eye and also get Acidic Splatter and all those levels you want, and then also waste one of your 9th level slots on an acid spell you never cast (did you know there are no 9th level [Acid] spells? Better waste a feat on Heighten or Energy Substitution, too). Let's then say you walk up to 30 feet of a monster that's not immune to SA without it noticing you're there, so you can get SA.

You deal 25d6 (average 87.5 damage) as a standard action, provided you hit with your attack. A balor has 290 HP. A pit fiend has 225. CR20 dragons have HP in the 300s-400s range. And these are monsters that are supposed to be trivial to fight for a 20th level character.

To exceed the damage you spent your entire build on, and do it more reliably, a full BAB warrior type needs to deal 22 damage per attack (times 4 attacks = 88 damage). 2d6 (greatsword, avg 7) + 5 (magic weapon) + 10 (strength score) hits that before any class features or feats come into play.

When unoptimized melee is better than you, it's really that low.

[toapat]

Yes. Let's say that you somehow had enough build resources to persist Hunter's Eye and also get Acidic Splatter and all those levels you want, and then also waste one of your 9th level slots on an acid spell you never cast (did you know there are no 9th level [Acid] spells? Better waste a feat on Heighten or Energy Substitution, too). Let's then say you walk up to 30 feet of a monster that's not immune to SA without it noticing you're there, so you can get SA.

You deal 25d6 (average 87.5 damage) as a standard action, provided you hit with your attack. A balor has 290 HP. A pit fiend has 225. CR20 dragons have HP in the 300s-400s range. And these are monsters that are supposed to be trivial to fight for a 20th level character.

To exceed the damage you spent your entire build on, and do it more reliably, a full BAB warrior type needs to deal 22 damage per attack (times 4 attacks = 88 damage). 2d6 (greatsword, avg 7) + 5 (magic weapon) + 10 (strength score) hits that before any class features or feats come into play.

When unoptimized melee is better than you, it's really that low.

Energy Sub (acid): meteor swarm. Or deal with loosing 2d6 and just keep a permanent Greater Master of Elements

Lesser Rod of Persistant spell: Cheap

combined thats 1 spell slot and 2/1 feats depending on build with all remaining slots allowed for other options, such as heroics to get yourself IC: Orb

and, on average, that warrior only deals 44 damage/round not 88.

[Flickerdart]

Lesser Rod of Persistant spell: Cheap

What book is that in?

and, on average, that warrior only deals 44 damage/round not 88.

Then you're building your warriors wrong.

[toapat]

What book is that in?


Then you're building your warriors wrong.

People calculated it out, its between 77,000 and 100,000g


How are you getting 6 attacks per round? hitting with the 3+4th itterative is extremely difficult and unreliable and why Standard attack > full attack

[Ellowryn]

He said/wrote 4 attacks, not 6, and even then most half optimized actually have 5 at twenty, plus pounce. With shock trooper you dont lose any BaB when power attacking so the only penalty you have is the iterative attack so you have 2 at 20, 1 at 15, 1 at 10, and 1 at 5, add in the +5 from the weapon enhancement and for the sake of the example +10 str you get attacks at +35,35,30,25,and 20. As ac becomes mostly moot after level 10 means that without some other form of warding off attacks all of those should hit.

For damage, again we will go with +10 Str modifier, so each attack with full power attack deals 40 + 15 str + 5 enhancement + 2d6 (greatsword) so about 67 damage per hit.

But thats about all he can do, which is why casters with thing like save or die spells are much better.

[toapat]

He said/wrote 4 attacks, not 6, and even then most half optimized actually have 5 at twenty, plus pounce. With shock trooper you dont lose any BaB when power attacking so the only penalty you have is the iterative attack so you have 2 at 20, 1 at 15, 1 at 10, and 1 at 5, add in the +5 from the weapon enhancement and for the sake of the example +10 str you get attacks at +35,35,30,25,and 20. As ac becomes mostly moot after level 10 means that without some other form of warding off attacks all of those should hit.

his example was unoptomized, not an ubercharger who is expected to single round destroy anything with a listed hp at 20

also, shock trooper does lose BAB on Power attack, its just that the penalty is capped at -2

[Ellowryn]

his example was unoptomized, not an ubercharger who is expected to single round destroy anything with a listed hp at 20

also, shock trooper does lose BAB on Power attack, its just that the penalty is capped at -2

That was unoptimized, 1 level of barbarian, 3 feats (power attack, improved bullrush, and shocktrooper), a +5 sword, and 30 str. Thats it. Oh and shocktrooper lets you assign your BaB penalty from power attack to ac instead.

[(Un)Inspired]

Energy Sub (acid): meteor swarm. Or deal with loosing 2d6 and just keep a permanent Greater Master of Elements

Lesser Rod of Persistant spell: Cheap

combined thats 1 spell slot and 2/1 feats depending on build with all remaining slots allowed for other options, such as heroics to get yourself IC: Orb

and, on average, that warrior only deals 44 damage/round not 88.

Why on earth would any caster ever cast meteor swarm? If were dealing with sneak attack the spell you want to use is telekinesis. Period. No arguments.

Maaaaybe fire shuriken if for some reason you aren't carrying a load of tiny projectiles on you to fling but if you're a sneak attack caster why would you ever be in that position?

Using unseen seer and Gorfab's spell combination you can do you full sneak attack damage 15 times with a single casting if the spell. +300 damage from craven. You can probably double that if you cast twinned telekinesis.

[toapat]

Why on earth would any caster ever cast meteor swarm? If were dealing with sneak attack the spell you want to use is telekinesis. Period. No arguments.

Maaaaybe fire shuriken if for some reason you aren't carrying a load of tiny projectiles on you to fling but if you're a sneak attack caster why would you ever be in that position?

Using unseen seer and Gorfab's spell combination you can do you full sneak attack damage 15 times with a single casting if the spell. +300 damage from craven. You can probably double that if you cast twinned telekinesis.

because the power of Acidic Splatter is determined by your highest Prepared/Known acid spell. For Sorcerers this caps them at Greater Master of Elements for the feat, for Wizards, Meteor Swarm is one of the few spells at 9th level with an elemental descriptor, allowing for it to be affected by Energy Sub. In uses of Acidic Splatter a Sneak attack mage would have outclassed the single target damage of Meteor swarm.

Fire Shuriken is horrid for sneak attack. You are better off using True-Strike + Reach weapon when your range Increment is 10 feet, because you cant sneak attack outside of your first range increment.

Telekinesis doesnt have a Precision damage callout, rendering it worthless. The entire point is that Acidic Splatter + Acid spell = Infinite use Acid Orb with CL = Known/Prepared Spell's level.

[Flickerdart]

People calculated it out, its between 77,000 and 100,000g

Please have the common courtesy to label homebrew materials as such. "People calculating stuff" is not a WotC publication.

you cant sneak attack outside of your first range increment.

SA is capped at 30ft, regardless of range increments.

Bro, do you even rules?