1 rogue/4 "X" arcane class/2 unseen seer/10 arcane trickster dmg

[toapat]

SA is capped at 30ft, regardless of range increments.

i remember there being a call out that it also had to be in the first range increment somewhere.

granted the rod is not cheap but its not excessively expensive.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

because the power of Acidic Splatter is determined by your highest Prepared/Known acid spell. For Sorcerers this caps them at Greater Master of Elements for the feat, for Wizards, Meteor Swarm is one of the few spells at 9th level with an elemental descriptor, allowing for it to be affected by Energy Sub. In uses of Acidic Splatter a Sneak attack mage would have outclassed the single target damage of Meteor swarm.

Fire Shuriken is horrid for sneak attack. You are better off using True-Strike + Reach weapon when your range Increment is 10 feet, because you cant sneak attack outside of your first range increment.

Telekinesis doesnt have a Precision damage callout, rendering it worthless. The entire point is that Acidic Splatter + Acid spell = Infinite use Acid Orb with CL = Known/Prepared Spell's level.

Telekinesis doesn't have to specifically state that it deals precision damage, because anything that makes an attack roll can deal precision damage.

Sorcerer + Acid Splash (0-level spell) + Heighten Spell means you can automatically count your highest-level available spell slot as a possible Heightened Acid Splash whenever you activate Acidic Splatter.

A Sorcerer can cast Invisible Scorching Ray as a full-round action to deliver up to three sneak attacks with it, or four with Split Ray, or five with Reserves of Strength, or six with both Split Ray and Reserves of Strength. Six sneak attacks from one 3rd level spell slot with Practical Metamagic or a 2nd level slot with Arcane Thesis at level 18, or five sneak attacks at level 14 with that.

If you really want to do some silly sneak attacking, Persistent Cloud of Knives as many times as you can possibly cast it, especially with Fell Drain, would be the way to go. Every round you'll get that many free-action attacks, each of which can deal sneak attack because they each make an attack roll.

[toapat]

Telekinesis doesn't have to specifically state that it deals precision damage, because anything that makes an attack roll can deal precision damage.

Sorcerer + Acid Splash (0-level spell) + Heighten Spell means you can automatically count your highest-level available spell slot as a possible Heightened Acid Splash whenever you activate Acidic Splatter.

A Sorcerer can cast Invisible Scorching Ray as a full-round action to deliver up to three sneak attacks with it, or four with Split Ray, or five with Reserves of Strength, or six with both Split Ray and Reserves of Strength. Six sneak attacks from one 3rd level spell slot with Practical Metamagic or a 2nd level slot with Arcane Thesis at level 18, or five sneak attacks at level 14 with that.

If you really want to do some silly sneak attacking, Persistent Cloud of Knives as many times as you can possibly cast it, especially with Fell Drain, would be the way to go. Every round you'll get that many free-action attacks, each of which can deal sneak attack because they each make an attack roll.

Not the callout i mean with sneak attack. Volley attacks need to call out that each attack deals Precision, otherwise it only applies once Per target

Heighten doesnt work that way for a sorcerer when talking about reserve feats, You dont know Heightened Acid Splash, you know Acid Splash, a 0th level spell.

Again, doesnt have the volley callout.

Persistant Cloud of Knives is a silly way to use it but effective.


Edit: Added the exception about volleys

[Flickerdart]

granted the rod is not cheap but its not excessively expensive.

The rod doesn't exist unless your DM graciously permits you to add a custom item that can't be made with the standard item guidelines into his game. A custom item that costs nearly one seventh of 20th level WBL and gives you free use of one of the game's most powerful feats.

I mean, if you were using it to do a worthless 87.5 damage per round, it might be allowed, just because it's so funny.

[toapat]

The rod doesn't exist unless your DM graciously permits you to add a custom item that can't be made with the standard item guidelines into his game. A custom item that costs nearly one seventh of 20th level WBL and gives you free use of one of the game's most powerful feats.

I mean, if you were using it to do a worthless 87.5 damage per round, it might be allowed, just because it's so funny.

a Feat trigger item of DMM: Persist could effect any spell with 3 uses/day and costs 54k. The lesser rod is not the most broken way to make that item and is more expensive

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Not the callout i mean with sneak attack. Volley attacks need to call out that each attack deals Precision, otherwise it only applies once Per target

Heighten doesnt work that way for a sorcerer when talking about reserve feats, You dont know Heightened Acid Splash, you know Acid Splash, a 0th level spell.

Again, doesnt have the volley callout.

Persistant Cloud of Knives is a silly way to use it but effective.


Edit: Added the exception about volleys

Reserve feats don't work the way you think they work:
"As long as you have an acid spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast, you can throw an orb of acid as a ranged touch attack. The attack has a range of 5 feet per level of the highest-level acid spell you have available to cast and deals 1d6 points of damage per level of that acid spell."

If a Sorcerer knows Acid Splash, has Heighten Spell, and has an open 9th level spell slot, then he has a 9th level acid spell available to cast. If he could cast that spell right now, then he has it available right now.


Rules Compendium specifically states that any special attack, including spells, which takes a full-round action to use and makes multiple attacks gets to add precision damage on every attacks. Individual spells don't need to call this out, it's built into the rules. A Sorcerer casting Telekinesis, or Scorching Ray, or any other 'volley' spell with a metamagic feat will increase its casting time to a full-round action and make every one of its attacks eligible to deal precision damage.

[Flickerdart]

a Feat trigger item of DMM: Persist could effect any spell with 3 uses/day and costs 54k. The lesser rod is not the most broken way to make that item and is more expensive

I don't see anything called a "feat trigger" after a Google search. Is this another rule you're making up?

[toapat]

If a Sorcerer knows Acid Splash, has Heighten Spell, and has an open 9th level spell slot, then he has a 9th level acid spell available to cast. If he could cast that spell right now, then he has it available right now.

Im seeing no where i can say you are correct. Heightened Acid Splash can be any level of spell but it doesnt count as a spell known for reserve because its a Metamagic spell.

I don't see anything called a "feat trigger" after a Google search. Is this another rule you're making up?

nope, personally im in doubt of that one too, but i found a few notes in the Rules Compendium involving Metamagic influenced scrolls so i can see where the logic came from.

[Flickerdart]

Im seeing no where i can say you are correct. Heightened Acid Splash can be any level of spell but it doesnt count as a spell known for reserve because its a Metamagic spell.

Reserve feats don't care whether you know a spell or not.

[toapat]

Reserve feats don't care whether you know a spell or not.

they do if you are a spontaneous caster, its right their in their descriptor.

"A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher"

[Flickerdart]

nope, personally im in doubt of that one too, but i found a few notes in the Rules Compendium involving Metamagic influenced scrolls so i can see where the logic came from.

How many times do I have to spell this out? Metamagic rods of Persist are not real items. Any such rod is homebrew and cannot be assumed to exist in a game.

[toapat]

How many times do I have to spell this out? Metamagic rods of Persist are not real items. Any such rod is homebrew and cannot be assumed to exist in a game.

as are all uses of Item Familiar and Craft Magical Tattoo (Faerun), as well as being able to actually use Gems of Fortification on non-reptilian PCs

you can allow optimization of Items or none at all, when i can point to 2 entire feats relying on homebrew

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

they do if you are a spontaneous caster, its right their in their descriptor.

"A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher"

A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as
a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at
least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher. If
the character has more than one appropriate spell known, he
gains the benefit only from the highest-level spell for which
he has an unused spell slot of that level or higher.

If a Sorcerer has Heighten Spell, then Acid Splash is an appropriate spell for learning and using Acidic Splatter. Heighten Spell makes it count as a higher level spell, so if he has a spell slot of any given level available, then that spell slot makes an Acid Splash of that level available to cast.

as are all uses of Item Familiar and Craft Magical Tattoo (Faerun), as well as being able to actually use Gems of Fortification on non-reptilian PCs

you can allow optimization of Items or none at all, when i can point to 2 entire feats relying on homebrew

All of those things you mentioned actually DO have built-in rules for customization. No such customization rules exist for metamagic rods.

[toapat]

If a Sorcerer has Heighten Spell, then Acid Splash is an appropriate spell for learning and using Acidic Splatter. Heighten Spell makes it count as a higher level spell, so if he has a spell slot of any given level available, then that spell slot makes an Acid Splash of that level available to cast.

That assumes you can count Heighten Spell as part of a Known spell, which as far as i can see, absolutely does not anywhere.

All of those things you mentioned actually DO have built-in rules for customization. No such customization rules exist for metamagic rods.

except that if no custom things are allowed to exist those cant either. You are either Restricted to only existing finished items or allow custom

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That assumes you can count Heighten Spell as part of a Known spell, which as far as i can see, absolutely does not anywhere.

The general rules for reserve feats state spell known, but if a specific reserve feat states available to cast then specific trumps general.

[toapat]

The general rules for reserve feats state spell known, but if a specific reserve feat states available to cast then specific trumps general.

Nope, because that section is the definition of Available to cast, as declared 2 paragraphs above it in the descriptor.

Either way, the best class for reserve feats is Cleric, then Wizard and Archivist, then Druid and all 9th level spontaneous, then all other casters.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

except that if no custom things are allowed to exist those cant either.

If the rules specifically state that you can make a wand, or staff, or scroll, etc. of a spell for which there's not an existing, printed wand or staff or scroll, then you can do that. Customization is built into the rules.

Item Familiars can be upgraded as though you possessed the appropriate item creation feats. There are existing rules for how to customize intelligent magic items, the rules say you're allowed to do it.

Regarding upgrading existing items, "A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions." That means any magical ability that already exists within the rules can be upgraded onto an existing item if you meet the prerequisites and follow the appropriate rules for magic item creation. Magic item customization exists because the rules say you're allowed to do it.

The rules DO NOT say a player is allowed to put made-up metamagic rods into the game, regardless of whether or not he would meet all the prerequisites to create such an item. If that item effect does not already exist within the rules, then it does not exist within the game and it cannot be put onto a magic item by a PC. The DMG includes rules for making up new magic items, but this capability is only available to the DM.

Nope, because that section is the definition of Available to cast, as declared 2 paragraphs above it in the descriptor.

Either way, the best class for reserve feats is Cleric, then Wizard and Archivist, then Druid and all 9th level spontaneous, then all other casters.

It's still open to interpretation. The definition of the minimum required to select and use a reserve feat, versus what a character actually has available within his capabilities for determining the strength of a given reserve feat's activation, are not the same thing.

A Druid may not have a Summon Nature's Ally IX prepared, but he can spontaneously convert a prepared 9th level spell into that at any given time. That 9th level Conjuration (summoning) spell is within his capabilities to cast, it's available to him right now, and it can be used to determine the strength of his Summon Elemental reserve feat.

Similarly, a Sorcerer who knows Acid Splash and has Heighten Spell and an open 9th level spell slot has a 9th level acid spell within his capabilities to cast, it's available to him right now, and it can be used to determine the strength of his Acidic Splatter reserve feat.

[toapat]

It's still open to interpretation. The definition of the minimum required to select and use a reserve feat, versus what a character actually has available within his capabilities for determining the strength of a given reserve feat's activation, are not the same thing.

A Druid may not have a Summon Nature's Ally IX prepared, but he can spontaneously convert a prepared 9th level spell into that at any given time. That 9th level Conjuration (summoning) spell is within his capabilities to cast, it's available to him right now, and it can be used to determine the strength of his Summon Elemental reserve feat.

Similarly, a Sorcerer who knows Acid Splash and has Heighten Spell and an open 9th level spell slot has a 9th level acid spell within his capabilities to cast, it's available to him right now, and it can be used to determine the strength of his Acidic Splatter reserve feat.

No, its not. The only interpretation you can make is based on the definition of Spells Known, which in and of itself is not a hard defined term in terms of what that constitutes. However none of what i see lets me know a spell with an inherent metamagic. Do you know how to cast a 9th level Acid spell? yes. Do you know how to cast a distinct 9th level Acid spell without metamagic? no. Nothing in the rules of Wizard or Sorcerer claims that you cant learn the same spell 10 times. Nothing in the rules says that a Sorcerer gets to count Heighten as part of their spells known because its a feat, not a spell

Your druid counterexample doesnt work because there are 9 natures ally spells and druids always have them available, which is the same problem with trying to use cleric as an example.

[(Un)Inspired]

because the power of Acidic Splatter is determined by your highest Prepared/Known acid spell. For Sorcerers this caps them at Greater Master of Elements for the feat, for Wizards, Meteor Swarm is one of the few spells at 9th level with an elemental descriptor, allowing for it to be affected by Energy Sub. In uses of Acidic Splatter a Sneak attack mage would have outclassed the single target damage of Meteor swarm.

Fire Shuriken is horrid for sneak attack. You are better off using True-Strike + Reach weapon when your range Increment is 10 feet, because you cant sneak attack outside of your first range increment.

Telekinesis doesnt have a Precision damage callout, rendering it worthless. The entire point is that Acidic Splatter + Acid spell = Infinite use Acid Orb with CL = Known/Prepared Spell's level.

Fire shuriken works cause it gives you multiple shots to tag SA into.

Acidic splatter is only a single attack on SA which is sad. Like cry myself to sleep sad.

Telekinesis lets you make attacks ergo you can SA with them. You have no need for true strike cause even without a touch attack boosting your attack bonus is trivial.

The only way sneak attack kind of works a little but sort of as a damage method is to get a buttload of attacks with it all in one round and telekinesis is a duper simple way to do that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, its not. The only interpretation you can make is based on the definition of Spells Known, which in and of itself is not a hard defined term in terms of what that constitutes. However none of what i see lets me know a spell with an inherent metamagic. Do you know how to cast a 9th level Acid spell? yes. Do you know how to cast a distinct 9th level Acid spell without metamagic? no. Nothing in the rules of Wizard or Sorcerer claims that you cant learn the same spell 10 times. Nothing in the rules says that a Sorcerer gets to count Heighten as part of their spells known because its a feat, not a spell

Your druid counterexample doesnt work because there are 9 natures ally spells and druids always have them available, which is the same problem with trying to use cleric as an example.

"A spellcaster who prepares spells each day (such as a wizard) must have an appropriate spell prepared and not yet cast that day."
"A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher."

A Druid can convert a prepared spell into a SNA of the same level, but if he leaves a spell slot open and unused he cannot use it to cast a SNA spell of that level. Let's say that Druid only has one 9th level spell slot, if he prepares a spell in that slot that's not SNA IX he can still cast a SNA IX by converting that prepared spell, but this does not fulfill either of the above quotes. If he leaves that one 9th level spell slot empty, then he fulfills the second above quote since he normally doesn't need to prepare SNA IX, so he can count a 9th level summoning spell as 'available to cast' for the Summon Elemental reserve feat. However, leaving that spell slot empty makes it so he's not actually capable of casting that spell. Are you saying that the above quotes are not open to interpretation, when I've given a specific example of a character not actually capable of casting a spell being counted by those rules as having that spell 'available to cast' for his reserve feat?

[Flickerdart]

except that if no custom things are allowed to exist those cant either. You are either Restricted to only existing finished items or allow custom

There is a massive difference between custom items built on clearly established guidelines, and custom items built on made-up nonsense. And a DM is in full right to allow one custom item and deny another custom item even when they use the same custom item guidelines. Nowhere does it say "verily, Master of Dungeons, thou must either suffer no custom item, or permit the players to do whatever the hell they want, and a third option there shall not be."

[toapat]

"A spellcaster who prepares spells each day (such as a wizard) must have an appropriate spell prepared and not yet cast that day."
"A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher."

A Druid can convert a prepared spell into a SNA of the same level, but if he leaves a spell slot open and unused he cannot use it to cast a SNA spell of that level. Let's say that Druid only has one 9th level spell slot, if he prepares a spell in that slot that's not SNA IX he can still cast a SNA IX by converting that prepared spell, but this does not fulfill either of the above quotes. If he leaves that one 9th level spell slot empty, then he fulfills the second above quote since he normally doesn't need to prepare SNA IX, so he can count a 9th level summoning spell as 'available to cast' for the Summon Elemental reserve feat. However, leaving that spell slot empty makes it so he's not actually capable of casting that spell. Are you saying that the above quotes are not open to interpretation, when I've given a specific example of a character not actually capable of casting a spell being counted by those rules as having that spell 'available to cast' for his reserve feat?

The Spontaneous casting class feature of Clerics and Druids is affected by the spontaneous spellcaster clause of Reserve feats, because in the rules it is spontaneous casting in every way possible.

This is only the thousandth time someone has refferenced an insufficiently comprehensive rule example.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Spontaneous casting class feature of Clerics and Druids is affected by the spontaneous spellcaster clause of Reserve feats, because in the rules it is spontaneous casting in every way possible.

This is only the thousandth time someone has refferenced an insufficiently comprehensive rule example.

I think you missed it:
"A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher."

The Druid in my example must leave his 9th level spell slot empty to fulfill having that SNA IX 'available to cast' according to the version of that for spontaneous spellcasters. This will make him unable to cast SNA IX because he can only convert a prepared spell into it, he cannot cast it from an empty spell slot. Casting that SNA IX spell is not within that character's capabilities that day, but he can still count that spell as 'available to cast' according to the dysfunctional RAW.

Which is why I stated that it's open to interpretation. A hard RAW for what's 'available to cast' for purposes of reserve feats would need to be several pages long if it was to account for every game mechanic which could modify what spells a character is currently capable of casting which could interact with their reserve feats. For purposes of what's actually usable in play, a character's actual capabilities would be taken into consideration over a dysfunctional rule that says a character has the spell 'available to cast' even though casting it is not within his capabilities.

[toapat]

unused spell slot

And? the terms for the status of a given spell slot are Open/Prepared and Unused/Expended. There is no conflict

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

And? the terms for the status of a given spell slot are Open/Prepared and Unused/Expended. There is no conflict

You have spell slots, and you have prepared spells. Once a spell is prepared in a spell slot, it's no longer a spell slot, it's a prepared spell.

"When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots."

A spell slot that has a spell prepared in it is not an 'unused spell slot' because it has been used to prepare that spell.

[toapat]

A spell slot that has a spell prepared in it is not an 'unused spell slot' because it has been used to prepare that spell.

except that is a contextual application of the term outside of the normal definition in relation to the usage of Open Spellslots.

The more common use of Unused in relation to spells is based off of the Casting a spell section of the PBH where Unused is the opposite of expended.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

except that is a contextual application of the term outside of the normal definition in relation to the usage of Open Spellslots.

The more common use of Unused in relation to spells is based off of the Casting a spell section of the PBH where Unused is the opposite of expended.

Every bit of the PHB magic chapter is contained in the pages linked from here. The only one of all those pages that contains the word 'unused' is the one I quoted. That is the only official definition of an 'unused spell slot' and the one we'll have to use.

[toapat]

Every bit of the PHB magic chapter is contained in the pages linked from here. The only one of all those pages that contains the word 'unused' is the one I quoted. That is the only official definition of an 'unused spell slot' and the one we'll have to use.

then the word has no direct definition at all, and even the refference is worthless because Unused is fluff within the definition of Open Spell Slot.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

then the word has no direct definition at all, and even the refference is worthless because Unused is fluff within the definition of Open Spell Slot.

You're claiming a strict RAW position, and then trying to ignore the RAW which are inconvenient to your position. When a prepared caster leaves a spell slot empty when preparing spells, it's counted as an 'unused spell slot' per the rules on preparing spells. Thus for a Druid to use his ability to spontaneously cast a SNA spell to activate Summon Elemental, he'll have to leave a spell slot empty when preparing spells in order for it to be counted as an 'unused spell slot' for him. My example still stands, the rules on 'available to cast' for reserve feats are still dysfunctional and open to interpretation. Regarding what would actually see play in a real game, the nonsensical 'available to cast' rules will most often be disregarded in favor of judging reserve feats on the character's actual capabilities, in which case a spell slot available for a Heightened Acid Splash is the ideal method for activating the Acidic Splatter reserve feat.

[toapat]

You're claiming a strict RAW position, and then trying to ignore the RAW which are inconvenient to your position.

No, im ignoring a redundant line that references back into the rest of the paragraph without being relevant to the definition.