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2014-07-20, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
Man uses new archery technique - Can shoot three arrows in less than two seconds.
Think we need the revise the archery rules....Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
Protip: DnD is an incredibly social game played by some of the most socially inept people on the planet - Lev
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2014-07-20, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2004
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- Lincoln, RI
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Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.- Benjamin Franklin
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2014-07-20, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
Nine shots per round?? Freaking reality power-creep. Next thing you know, they'll start abusing the custom Machine rules to make auto-reset bows which fire hundreds of 5 millimeter arrowheads per round.
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2014-07-20, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-07-20, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
As I have heard it explained, the man is using a flashy technique that's useless in combat. The man is using a bow with a 30-35 lb draw weight, and isn't even drawing it back all the way. The mail doesn't have padding, and is laid on a flat surface (making penetration altogether too easy). The quality of the mail/arrows is not explained in the video or in the credits, making its useability in combat unverified at best.
So - at least from what I have heard - the technique is dubious at best, fraudulent at worst. I can't pretend to be an expert on bows, though, so believe what you will.
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2014-07-20, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
As he is performing it, the technique is useless in combat, but that doesnt mean that it couldnt be adapted into a combat viable technique with higher rate of fire and stronger draw strenght arrows. The arrows also definitely would need sharper tips, as the short penetration stub that those arrows had rapidly increases drag.
In other words, Imagine Ferrari having to design and build tanks. They have most of the equipment and they could probably access the theories and material sciences needed to design one, but it would take them a long time and a long RnD cycle to build an effective tankMy Homebrew: found here.
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2014-07-20, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
"That's a horrible idea! What time?"
T-Shirt given to me by a good friend.. "in fairness, I was unsupervised at the time".
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2014-07-20, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
But the Ferrari tanks would look a lot regular tanks in the end, not like Ferraris. Some things are just not as good in a combat situation, and not being able to penetrate any armor, even stiff leather, that's just a bad deal for an offensive force. It's simply too easy to have less trained archers in rows and have them volley, that's actually got force and you don't have to have training on that scale.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-07-20, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
again, its not so much that the technique is bad so much as what we have of one is a showman's technique, not a combat adapted one
Like, if Ferrari made a tank, id expect it to have a shaped hull, and be made very light compared to other tanks while having a higher top speed and better mileage.My Homebrew: found here.
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2014-07-20, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
Well that'd depend on what they're being designed for. R&D people tend to design things for a specific purpose. If Ferrari made a tank killing tank, I guarantee it'd be ugly and heavily armored and slow, because those are typical attributes of those type of tanks. You design a technique to be useful with what you have as useful as possible. Adopting showy things is usually not a great way to go about it. Now you could steal certain fundamentals of this and use them, but it's not going to ever be better than many other combat tactics, if it would have been, people would have adopted it widely.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-07-20, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
Do note for the people complaining about lack of penetration that competition archery doesn't use real arrowheads, the tips they use have higher drag and terrible penetration (by design).
Not a good analogy though because we're not talking about regular mooks in an army. It might be infeasible for a regular army to be trained in such a way, but when discussing superhumanly skilled demigods of marital combat (a high level PC), the numbers change.
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2014-07-20, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
What the video shows is that holding the arrows in your drawing hand is faster than retrieving arrows from your quiver or from the hand holding the bow. The fact that he is shooting with low power doesn't prove either that the technique will or won't work with a more powerful bow.
Think of it like this. A man develops a new speed shooting technique for handguns. He demonstrates its effectiveness by shattering the current world record for speed shooting, using a .22 pistol. We don't know it will work with higher caliber pistols, but it would be silly to assume it wouldn't just because the video didn't use a higher caliber.
Yes, I'm arguing for archery agnosticism. Sue me.
As for the "if this worked, someone would be using it already" argument:
1) The video argues that some people probably developed it before, and it's simply a lost method. Considering we've lost the techniques surrounding a lot of other weapons in the last few centuries, it's a possibility.
2) There have been numerous innovations in the last century for things mankind has been practicing for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Swimming, martial arts, cooking, and alcohol production all come to mind immediately.
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2014-07-20, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
I've met Special Operations Marines, they simply have a different skillset, but they're still people, if you're going for that sort of realism, then nobody is the special commando.
http://terminallance.com/2012/06/19/...-get-it-right/
Everybody is the stooge. Now I'm not saying that we should do that, but I'm saying that realism is a bad thing to use for what would be fun in a roleplaying game. I realize that the arrowheads may not be designed for penetration, but even if you look at the arc those are making you can see that they don't have a lot of force, I assume that there are reasons this was not used tactically, because it didn't work, things that work tactically tend to have widespread adoption. Formations, specific tactics. Suppressing fire. Those things are rapidly spread.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-07-20, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
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2014-07-20, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
The video makes the claim that this was used tactically in the past, and cites some examples of things that modern-day archers agree were written down as being fact, but which modern-day archers generally have been saying were impossible. The video then demonstrates the specific things mentioned in those historical records are, in fact, possible. Those records refer to them as being used for military purposes. Thus, assuming the modern-day archers' claims of impossibility are incorrect - which this video demonstrates at least under certain circumstances - it is plausible that this WAS used tactically in the past, and we just forgot how to do it because military use of archery is long obsolete.
Therefore, claiming "it wasn't used tactically, therefore it wasn't viable" fails because it seems plausible that it WAS used tactically, according to historical records.
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2014-07-20, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
I'm saying that for whatever reason it didn't have widespread tactical applicability, whether that's because it didn't have sufficient penetrative power to hit an armored opponent, or because it was only accurate at a much shorter range. I'm not saying that it was likely completely without merit. I'm saying that assuming that it was the go-to tactic is probably not exactly the best bet. Again we don't know what it was used for, I in fact, initially pointed out that it could be useful, for hunting, and that I thought that it might not be as useful for combat due to armor. Which is why bows often were large and had high draw force, because they were made to beat armor.
Furthermore the Archery rules actually account for this, with rapid shot, and manyshot and such. An archer could presumably launch multiple attacks in under six seconds. Which is pretty impressive.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-07-20, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
It might be unrealistic, but at 7th level, you are among superhuman levels. You are nearing the pinacle of human capabilities. For mundanes to match, being able to fire off nearly twice as fast as any other human seems like a decent base.
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2014-07-20, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
Last edited by AMFV; 2014-07-20 at 03:20 PM.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-07-20, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
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2014-07-20, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
My Homebrew: found here.
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2014-07-20, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
I'm making claims based on my personal experience with military tactics. Shooting fast is very rarely as useful as shooting accurately and penetrating defenses. For a wide variety of reasons, none of which change if you're using a bow as opposed to a rifle. You have a limited amount of ammunition (significantly more limited with a bow than with a rifle), accuracy is key and those shots were made in what would be considered today extreme close range, definitely within the range that a sprinting melee fighter would likely be able to reach you before you were able to aim successfully, particularly if there were several such fighters. If they're armored this is likely to have glancing blows, not penetrative ones, as can be seen in the video.
I did say that I could see a use for it, it's an intimidation tactic it's useful against unarmored foes or in hunting. But I cannot see it being useful tactically when compared to having a longer range and being more penetrative, the only tactics that typically involved short range archery and speed archery involved being mounted, which solves both of the problems I presented, you run out of ammo you can go get more, and you can run away. For example the Saracens used mounted archers, which is when this sort of thing is useful. I'm not saying that there is no use to it, I'm saying that in widespread use, I can't see it being more viable than increased range and penetration.
Edit: Hell for shooting fast you'd get out-paced very rapidly by volleys from rank and file archers. Which is a tactic that works amazingly, you can do much more with three guys in line than you could ever do as a single archer.Last edited by AMFV; 2014-07-20 at 03:35 PM.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-07-20, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
Baseline. Baseline. A fighter 7 with manyshot is going to be the most capable person in the world at it. Being able to perform 3 kill shots in the time it takes a normal person to fire a single one.
Average human Warrior 1 has 8HP, requring a perfect roll on a composite +2 Str bonus bow (soStr14+). Elite Array NPC Warriors in enough numbers can put out enough.
Said Fighter shpuld be dealing KILL shots, each and every time.
An average human has a stat array of 63, or PB of 15. A 32pb is around 80, and allows for up to an 18 in one score, which is nearly double what an average human is capable of. That is just at l1,and irespective of his class or feats.
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2014-07-20, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
Additionally we have no idea why the Saracens had that training requirement. Because it's a training requirement. It could just be that they think that's how fast you have to be able to fire outside of combat to be able to fire adequately in combat. Training tactics are as a rule not the same as real tactics, they're designed to improve performance in real situations but not always in the way people expect, and that's a common issue I have with a lot of historians is that they assume that things done in training are done in regular practice, and my experience tells me that this is not the case.
Edit: It's as if a historian found a fitness Maradmin from 2006, and made assumptions that Marines during that period frequently ran distances of three miles while wearing barely anything, which is not a combat reality but a training one.Last edited by AMFV; 2014-07-20 at 03:57 PM.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-07-20, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
My Homebrew: found here.
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2014-07-20, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
don't composite bows typically allow for a higher draw? not sure to similar sized bow not sure that matter as much against plate armors but yeah 40 lbs is pretty light as far as bows go in general but I guess in theory if you had the strength to do so a composite bow with high draw could do some damage but then your getting into modern bows even then shooting at that speed may be impractical that higher draw
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2014-07-21, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
Hahahha. Poison Archer factotum is sitting there with his cunning surge saying "only 9 shots per round? That's cute."
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2014-07-21, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
The higher the strength of a character, the easier/faster it is to haul back those high weight draws.
Not trying to down on the guy in the vid, but he clearly didn't have natural 20 STR, and Gauntlets of Ogre Power."The trick with Psionics isn't looking for what's good, it's looking for what makes everything else better."
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Make a disguise check every time you encounter someone new.
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2014-07-21, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Reality once again, is SO unrealistic. (Archery edition)
Number of "uses" of a weapon != number of attacks.
Most people can swing a sword much more often then once per 6 seconds. They still get only one attack.
So if those 1st level archer want to be all fancy and shoot 10 arrows within a round, by all means, they can do it. They still get only one attack however fluffed as they like.
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2014-07-21, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
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- Inside your head