Dark Souls III: Witty Title Pending

[riccaru]

Well, this is distressing:

http://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/c...rne_easy_mode/

Apparently if you leave your game running for more than 12 hours (including just putting the system into rest mode), the bosses will have simpler attack patterns due to a memory leak.

I have personally experienced this. Remember how I said earlier how I took down the Blood-Starved Beast with no damage? Guess why that would be. I've also observed the same behaviour on other bosses, including I believe on the final boss if the difference in difficulty between my first attempt and the one I did today is any indication.

Long story short: EXIT YOUR GAME. Don't just shut off the system, because that'll just put it into Rest mode - actually use your PS button to close out the application.


....And here I thought I was just good.

I thought that was what the patch was for the other day?

[Rosstin]

Midwife was super easy in my game for this reason. I've also seen some insane glitches.

[Spacewolf]

Is that only with Suspended mode? I don't quit out of the application only using the ingame menu to exit but these guys are still jumping around like monkeys on crack for me.

[Rodin]

I thought that was what the patch was for the other day?

That was for a bug where if you did Co-op at a certain point, a Key would no longer drop. Also it fixed some item duplication bug, I think.

I can confirm the bug happening as recently as today. One of the late-game bosses that I had known to engage in teleport spam and other shady behaviours literally walked towards me repeating the same attack for the entire fight.

I don't know whether you have to exit the entire application or whether you have to just quit out of the game to the title screen. Next time I see it I'll test whether you can fix it that way, but to be safe I'm intending on exiting the application every time just to be sure.

[Zevox]

One thing I love about Souls titles is first plays take a long time for me.

Speaking of, I'm still on my play-through of Dark Souls 2. It's been kinda slow since I've also bee playing the Hearthstone expansion, was playing Street Fighter 4 for a while, and doing various other things with my free time, but I'm getting close to the end I think. I'm at Aldia Keep now. Things have been largely pretty straightforward for a while - although I really didn't like The Gutter and Black Gulch; those were much more annoying versions of Blighttown. But yeah, I've got a +5 Sunset Staff fueling my hexes (well, hex - the only one I find worth using is Dark Orb, which I now have three copies of), so they're pretty much ripping everything to shreds. Honestly getting through the areas is often harder than the bosses now, just because there'll be something that's a pain to deal with somewhere in each new area, like all those spellcasters sniping at me in the Shrine of Amana, or the specters that respawned until you destroyed their grave in the Undead Crypt. Maybe it's just that magic is just too good here.

[TechnOkami]

I just received Bloodborne today, and have just finished character creation. I won't be available for online play because I'm not gonna wait 20 hours for the Bloodborne multiplayer when I have the game in front of me. So yeah.

[Snowbluff]

I haven't gotten coop to work in the early game yet. I've been told you need 10 insight before you can get the item to be summoned. It's weird that they would gate it like that.

[Rodin]

Speaking of, I'm still on my play-through of Dark Souls 2. It's been kinda slow since I've also bee playing the Hearthstone expansion, was playing Street Fighter 4 for a while, and doing various other things with my free time, but I'm getting close to the end I think. I'm at Aldia Keep now. Things have been largely pretty straightforward for a while - although I really didn't like The Gutter and Black Gulch; those were much more annoying versions of Blighttown. But yeah, I've got a +5 Sunset Staff fueling my hexes (well, hex - the only one I find worth using is Dark Orb, which I now have three copies of), so they're pretty much ripping everything to shreds. Honestly getting through the areas is often harder than the bosses now, just because there'll be something that's a pain to deal with somewhere in each new area, like all those spellcasters sniping at me in the Shrine of Amana, or the specters that respawned until you destroyed their grave in the Undead Crypt. Maybe it's just that magic is just too good here.

Magic in Dark Souls 2 is extremely good. Hexes are downright broken. Dark Orb in particular will flatten absolutely everything.

I haven't gotten coop to work in the early game yet. I've been told you need 10 insight before you can get the item to be summoned. It's weird that they would gate it like that.

Yeah, it's basically impossible to get 10 Insight before the second boss. I have gotten myself summoned for him though, by beating him and then going back and offering services.

Like I mentioned earlier though, I swear that there's something wrong with the matchmaking. Worldwide summons requests (both incoming and outgoing) in the first couple weeks after release shouldn't have such a massive failure rate. I am also almost never getting invaded - I got invaded exactly twice, once after another in the same area. After that...nothing. I'm obviously online though, because I can see Messengers and bloodstains.

[TechnOkami]

Cleric beast is down on the second try! Now time to go through the sewers.

Edit: apparently you have to be a Playstation Plus member to use the multiplayer. I think that's kinda BS but whatever, I wasn't dead set on using it. All I'm really annoyed about by it is that I won't be able to see other people's messages. Oh well.

[riccaru]

Magic in Dark Souls 2 is extremely good. Hexes are downright broken. Dark Orb in particular will flatten absolutely everything.



Yeah, it's basically impossible to get 10 Insight before the second boss. I have gotten myself summoned for him though, by beating him and then going back and offering services.

Like I mentioned earlier though, I swear that there's something wrong with the matchmaking. Worldwide summons requests (both incoming and outgoing) in the first couple weeks after release shouldn't have such a massive failure rate. I am also almost never getting invaded - I got invaded exactly twice, once after another in the same area. After that...nothing. I'm obviously online though, because I can see Messengers and bloodstains.

You can only be invaded at specific places or if you open your world to others.

Spoiler: location

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were you in hemwich charnal lane when you were invaded? The wooded area?

[Thanatos 51-50]

You can only be invaded at specific places or if you open your world to others.

And only then, I assume, if a Bell-ringing Woman shows up and remains un-killed for long enough for somebody to show up, ring their Small Sinister Bell, and be summoned to your world.
Invasions appear ridiculously complicated. I hope FROM puts out a fight club-style area for PvPers to get their fix.

[Zevox]

Magic in Dark Souls 2 is extremely good. Hexes are downright broken. Dark Orb in particular will flatten absolutely everything.

Speaking of, a bit of a frustration I have with magic in Dark Souls: it feels like the only spells you even want to use 90+% of the time are the basic attack ones (Soul Arrow, Great Soul Arrow, Dark Orb), which gets kinda boring over time. But everything else either has so few castings, does so much less damage than those, or both, that it's hard to justify bothering with them in comparison - even though most of them require higher int/faith scores compared to those basic attack spells, and so are obviously only going to be used by someone playing a dedicated caster. And the few that are useful are very situational by comparison, like Lingering Flame or Soul Greatsword.

Edit: apparently you have to be a Playstation Plus member to use the multiplayer. I think that's kinda BS but whatever, I wasn't dead set on using it. All I'm really annoyed about by it is that I won't be able to see other people's messages. Oh well.

Well, yeah - PS4 requires a PS+ membership for multiplayer in any games. That's been known since the system was announced.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Magic has always been "easy-mode" in Souls games, since Demon's Souls, so yeah you shouldn't be surprised about that, now that I think so, that may be one reason why Bloodborne doesn't have actual spells.

[riccaru]

Speaking of, a bit of a frustration I have with magic in Dark Souls: it feels like the only spells you even want to use 90+% of the time are the basic attack ones (Soul Arrow, Great Soul Arrow, Dark Orb), which gets kinda boring over time. But everything else either has so few castings, does so much less damage than those, or both, that it's hard to justify bothering with them in comparison - even though most of them require higher int/faith scores compared to those basic attack spells, and so are obviously only going to be used by someone playing a dedicated caster. And the few that are useful are very situational by comparison, like Lingering Flame or Soul Greatsword.


Well, yeah - PS4 requires a PS+ membership for multiplayer in any games. That's been known since the system was announced.

The other spells are mostly used in PvP if at all. And even then some are still very niche options.

[Rodin]

And only then, I assume, if a Bell-ringing Woman shows up and remains un-killed for long enough for somebody to show up, ring their Small Sinister Bell, and be summoned to your world.
Invasions appear ridiculously complicated. I hope FROM puts out a fight club-style area for PvPers to get their fix.

Yes, but there are certain areas of the game where Bell-ringing women show up naturally. I've been in those areas for extremely long periods of time with the woman dinging away and not had a soul show up.

In theory, you're likely to be invaded if you summon in another person, because that beckons a Bell-ringing woman to the zone as well. In practice, I almost never manage to find anybody and when I do it's typically right outside the boss door so there's no opportunity to get invaded.

I'm certainly not complaining about the lack of invasions. It just feels darned weird. I wonder if the Playstation Plus subscription has resulted in a lot lower percentage of players using multiplayer?

[Snowbluff]

The other spells are mostly used in PvP if at all. And even then some are still very niche options.

This. Lightning Spears were the pinnacle of boring but practical in DkS2 in PvE, but other spells like SLB, GMB, and War (sacred oath is a crappy name for it) were very useful in short skirmishes in PvP.

Of course, Lightning Spear was nerfed to the point of being useless, despite being one of the slowest spells in the game. If you ever wonder why I think game developers don't know how to balance things, think about that.

If you need to know why I hate publishers, look at Destiny, WoW, Sim City, and Battlefield.

[Calemyr]

If anyone is interested, I've won the game and gotten to try all the weapons, so I thought I'd list my favorites.

Spoiler

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Melee weapons:
1 - Ludwig's Holy Blade: Ludwig's Holy Crap, this thing is nasty. Not only does thing do very high levels of damage, it's very flexible. As a one handed blade it is reasonably fast, efficient, and powerful. As a two handed blade it has power to spare, excellent reach, and two strong attacks that are very useful: L2 is an overhead slash that can hit things that are often very hard to hit with normal attacks (either too short or in the air), allowing it to make mince meat of bosses like Amygdala. The R2 charge is powerful and has a great reach and does thrusting damage. Also, since all of it's damage is strength and skill, you can use the Empty Phantasm Shell to add extra Arcane damage on top of its already absurd offense. Or fire or bolt paper, adding some on the fly versatility. Finding anything that even remotely competes with this monster is difficult to say the least.

2 - Blades of Mercy: They do not look like much at first. Compared to the Holy Blade, they do about half the damage and they don't stun as many enemies. What they are, however, are absurdly fast and stamina efficient in dual blade mode. You can just dive in and do absurd amounts of damage in a single volley, especially if you can stun the enemy. Smaller and more agile enemies that give the Holy Blade problems get cut to ribbons with these blades. Unfortunately it already comes with some arcane damage, so you can't modify the blades with fire paper, bolt paper, or the Empty Phantasm Shell, though the innate arcane damage allows it to rip through some things that are resistant to physical attacks. Generally speaking, when they are effective at all they are very effective indeed.

3 - The Hunter's Axe: Personally, I prefer the Threaded Cane's style as a starting weapon, but you just can't argue with the Axe's power, reach, area of effect, and versatility. The only starter weapon that has a two handed form, this thing has the best of all worlds - at least until you can get the Holy Blade which does pretty much everything better. The one place the Axe maintains its superiority is in AoE, as it cuts a bigger swath normally and it's charge attack hits almost everything in your area. Twice. My go-to weapon until I could get the Holy Blade, and one that still gets some use later on.

Guns:
1 - The Cannon: The gun for Hunters that don't like guns. This thing requires an immense strength score of 30 to use, but it doesn't require a lot of bloodtinge to be effective, making it a fairly useful firearm for melee-heavy hunters. The range isn't great and it requires 10 bullets per shot (so you can only fire it twice, four times if you use blood bullets each time). What you get in trade is a level of damage that rivals even pretty good melee weapons.

2 - Hunter Pistol: For a starter weapon, this weapon is pretty darn good. Can reach a pretty good level of power with fortification, has good accuracy, long range, and firing speed. I don't usually use guns for damage dealing (except the cannon), so being able to fire off a quick shot at the right time to stun an enemy is ideal. The fact that it actually can deal some vaguely meaningful damage is nice bonus.

3 - Evelyn: Evelyn is much like the Hunter Pistol, just with a slightly inferior base damage and better bloodtinge scaling. If you're planning on focusing on bloodtinge (such as if you want to use the Chikage katana), this weapon will serve you better than the Hunter Pistol. Otherwise, they're pretty much equal, you just get the Hunter Pistol at the beginning and significantly later.

That's my take, anyway. Anyone else have an opinion?

[Snowbluff]

I've been playing with the Gentleman's Flogging Cane. I've tried using the saw spear, but it just eats up stamina way faster.

I agree with the Gentleman's Dueling Pistol being very good.

[Rosstin]

I'm in your camp, Cal. Pretty much spot-on.

Spoiler: My Weapon Opinions

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Ludwig's Holy Blade is god-tier so far. Axe is also excellent. Not experienced with the other weapon you mentioned, though.

Cannon rocks if you combine it with blood-bullets and ash. It only gets about 4 shots and the reloading time is atrocious but it's worth it for a killing ranged attack for a strength build.

You didn't mention Tonitrus. That weapon does insane damage at insane speed. It doesn't necessarily flinch the same things as Ludwig's. Some things seem to flinch with elec and some things flinch with a massive slab of steel pounding them. Tonitrus requires you to charge it every five seconds though. You can find it if you get captured by the bagmen, or when you reach Paarl, from a dead body slumped outside at the end of the street, if I recall. Great weapon that is excellent with very little investment.

Blunderbuss and Ludwig's Rifle deserve mention. Neither does much damage but they have spread which makes it easy to stun enemies for viscerals.

I really want to grab a Chikage and Evelyn to try out.

Oh, Repeating Pistol. This thing does the most damage of anything save the cannon. It accepts runes, unlike cannon, and uses 2 bullets. If you need a ranged attack and don't have 30 strength, and don't mind running out of bullets a bit faster, this thing is great. It's strictly better than pistol unless you're worried about running out of bullets too fast.

I have the fortune to have found a Beast Claw as well. I haven't found a use for it yet. Doesn't do enough stun or have enough damage output. Fun but not useful so far.

One more weapon: the rifle-spear is great for poking in 2-hand mode. A lot of times, a jump-attack from Ludwig's is as-good or better. Sometimes though, a charged rifle-spear poke is what you need, especially when the enemy you're fighting is immune to flinching or has killer poise.

[Calemyr]

I'm in your camp, Cal. Pretty much spot-on.

Spoiler: My Weapon Opinions

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Ludwig's Holy Blade is god-tier so far. Axe is also excellent. Not experienced with the other weapon you mentioned, though.

Cannon rocks if you combine it with blood-bullets and ash. It only gets about 4 shots and the reloading time is atrocious but it's worth it for a killing ranged attack for a strength build.

You didn't mention Tonitrus. That weapon does insane damage at insane speed. It doesn't necessarily flinch the same things as Ludwig's. Some things seem to flinch with elec and some things flinch with a massive slab of steel pounding them. Tonitrus requires you to charge it every five seconds though. You can find it if you get captured by the bagmen, or when you reach Paarl, from a dead body slumped outside at the end of the street, if I recall. Great weapon that is excellent with very little investment.

Blunderbuss and Ludwig's Rifle deserve mention. Neither does much damage but they have spread which makes it easy to stun enemies for viscerals.

I really want to grab a Chikage and Evelyn to try out.

Oh, Repeating Pistol. This thing does the most damage of anything save the cannon. It accepts runes, unlike cannon, and uses 2 bullets. If you need a ranged attack and don't have 30 strength, and don't mind running out of bullets a bit faster, this thing is great. It's strictly better than pistol unless you're worried about running out of bullets too fast.

I have the fortune to have found a Beast Claw as well. I haven't found a use for it yet. Doesn't do enough stun or have enough damage output. Fun but not useful so far.

One more weapon: the rifle-spear is great for poking in 2-hand mode. A lot of times, a jump-attack from Ludwig's is as-good or better. Sometimes though, a charged rifle-spear poke is what you need, especially when the enemy you're fighting is immune to flinching or has killer poise.

Spoiler

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I've found the Tonitrus failing to live up to its high damage rating. It seemed slow and clumsy to me, and I rarely felt the need to exploit a vulnerability to bolt when I didn't have bolt paper on hand and the Holy Blade. Add in the weapon's low durability (100 when 200 is standard) and it just doesn't manage to stay on my active weapons roster all that often. Good, certainly, but not on my favorites list. You can buy it with the Spark Badge you get from Paarl, or find it in the prison Paarl guards.

Chikage... I don't know what to think of it. Base form is all right, nothing grand. Can hold its own with the silver blades (Holy Blade and Kirkhammer), I think. Alt-Mode? You'd have to have a pretty absurd bloodtinge score for that to be useful, I think. A constant health drain? A charge attack that does pretty severe damage to you regardless of whether it hits? In a game where you're often already downing vials like a sailor on shore, that doesn't seem like a smart strategy unless you can get the damage really high. My bloodtinge is always my weakest stat, so I don't get much value from it.

The Beast Claws suffer kind of the same problem in a different way. When transformed you get the same kind of beast meter you get from beast pellets, only it's permanent (while in that mode) and builds up as you damage enemies. The catch is that the beast meter increases damage both dealt and received, allowing you to become a whirlwind of bloody death that can be killed with a dirty look. I think they would have been a lot of fun if I'd gotten them earlier, but as a hidden item found on the second floor of a depth 4 chalice dungeon? It's the last weapon I ever got to use and by the time you do get it there's rarely enough room for the high risk high reward style. I think the Burial Blade is a bigger endgame disappointment, but the Beast Claws come too late to really be enjoyable.

[Spacewolf]

Spoiler

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I'm still using the Cane and Blunderbuss I picked up at the start with the Saw spear acting as a permanent fire weapon for me as back up. Is Ludwigs blade really that good?

Other than that has anyone tried out the Reiterpallasch?

[Calemyr]

Spoiler

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I'm still using the Cane and Blunderbuss I picked up at the start with the Saw spear acting as a permanent fire weapon for me as back up. Is Ludwigs blade really that good?

Other than that has anyone tried out the Reiterpallasch?

Spoiler

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Ludwig's Holy Blade is really that good. My brother and looked at every weapon we could find to try and find something that could compete with it. It's got high power, its moves are useful, it draws well (B rank at +10) from both skill and strength, so you can get a lot of benefit from scaling before diminishing returns sets in. It has an A rank in arcane scaling so if you use an elemental rune in it you can get a lot out of it that way as well. It's fast and efficient in one handed form and offers great reach and area of effect in two handed form, and it's immensely powerful in either. I believe (cannot confirm) that it can do blunt or thrusting damage depending on what move you do*, making it even more versatile. Note that it is not a game breaker by any means - it doesn't make the game "easy mode" or anything - but I have not found a weapon that rivals it. Even the Blades of Mercy can't hold a candle to them, they just do a good job of filling in wherever high speed and attack rate are more useful than raw power.

* In greatsword form, I believe the regular swing and L2 power attack are blunt, while the R2 power attack is thrusting. Given that the greatsword's "blade" is the sword's sheath, that makes sense (as you wouldn't want sharp edges on a sheathe). This also gives you effective options regardless of which form of attack the enemy is vulnerable to.

Reiterpallasch is interesting, but the mounted pistol causes me trouble. Thrusting damage is a nice complement to the big weapons like Kirkhammer, Tonitrus, and the Holy Blade. Trading a melee R2 attack for a gun is an interesting concept: you could have a shotgun and the Reiterpallasch and effectively have a shotgun, a pistol, and a rapier at the same time. Or maybe a cannon and a pistol, though that's wasting a lot of strength. However, having an R2 that also consumes bullets is less than ideal. If I'm going to use a one handed weapon, I might as well use a pistol. I won't say it's a disappointing weapon, but it just didn't impress me.

[riccaru]

Spoiler

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Ludwig's Holy Blade is really that good. My brother and looked at every weapon we could find to try and find something that could compete with it. It's got high power, its moves are useful, it draws well (B rank at +10) from both skill and strength, so you can get a lot of benefit from scaling before diminishing returns sets in. It has an A rank in arcane scaling so if you use an elemental rune in it you can get a lot out of it that way as well. It's fast and efficient in one handed form and offers great reach and area of effect in two handed form, and it's immensely powerful in either. I believe (cannot confirm) that it can do blunt or thrusting damage depending on what move you do*, making it even more versatile. Note that it is not a game breaker by any means - it doesn't make the game "easy mode" or anything - but I have not found a weapon that rivals it. Even the Blades of Mercy can't hold a candle to them, they just do a good job of filling in wherever high speed and attack rate are more useful than raw power.

* In greatsword form, I believe the regular swing and L2 power attack are blunt, while the R2 power attack is thrusting. Given that the greatsword's "blade" is the sword's sheath, that makes sense (as you wouldn't want sharp edges on a sheathe). This also gives you effective options regardless of which form of attack the enemy is vulnerable to.

Reiterpallasch is interesting, but the mounted pistol causes me trouble. Thrusting damage is a nice complement to the big weapons like Kirkhammer, Tonitrus, and the Holy Blade. Trading a melee R2 attack for a gun is an interesting concept: you could have a shotgun and the Reiterpallasch and effectively have a shotgun, a pistol, and a rapier at the same time. Or maybe a cannon and a pistol, though that's wasting a lot of strength. However, having an R2 that also consumes bullets is less than ideal. If I'm going to use a one handed weapon, I might as well use a pistol. I won't say it's a disappointing weapon, but it just didn't impress me.

Spoiler: SEMI "OFFICIAL GUIDE" SPOILER

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Epic Name Bro says that all the weapons and their damage types with each attack will be in the official guide. He worked on that part quite a lot from what he says. So we will soon have a definitive answer for that.

[Rodin]

Spoiler: Weapons

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Ludwig's Holy Blade is hard to argue with as the outright best weapon of the game, just due to its reach and flexibility. It also deals more damage than just about anything. My favorite so far is actually the Chikage though.

While the Chikage doesn't do as much per swing, it attacks a heckuva lot faster and leaves you open a lot less. One-handed it does comparable damage to Ludwig's one-handed, while two-handed Ludwig's outperforms it.

What is nice about the Chikage's two-handed mode is the "draw from the sheath" mechanic (a.k.a. battojutsu/iaijutsu). If you attack immediately after changing modes, you do as much as a Strong attack and will also typically knock your opponent off-balance, allowing a follow-up combo. The Charge attack in two-handed mode is also ridiculously strong, although I'm rarely finding bosses which give me sufficient time to pull it off.

Overall, I think the Chikage is better for dealing with individual enemies (due to not leaving yourself open), while Ludwig's does a lot better against mobs and bosses due to its reach and damage.

On the Reiterpallasch, it's a sword that you really have to have Bloodtinge for. The pistol built into it is better than just about any other pistol in the game, and even at moderate Bloodtinge is comparable to the Evelyn due to having very high base damage. Other than that, it's a Rapier. I've found it highly effective and superior to the Rifle Spear as a pokey weapon. Rifle Spear did more damage per hit, but Reiter allowed faster hit-and-run attacks and had better DPS overall.

I also tried out the Tonitrus as a full Arcane build, and was not impressed. Yes, it does more damage than God. But it's also a slow, clumsy weapon that needs repairing every 5 minutes. Ludwig's is a better Arcane weapon or if you're really stretching for one, go with the Hunter Axe.

[Spacewolf]

Spoiler

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Urg just ran into Amy in the Corrupted Chalice and considering it's the only boss I've beaten on my first try so far in the main game I can say this chalice version is probably going to piss me off. What appears to be over 20k health on a boss I can only do just over 200 damage to if I'm attacking its vulnerables while I have half health, yea not exactly a recipe for an enjoyable time.

Although I do have to say these chalices are a good way to kill time, the last few I've done having taken about a day each.

[Calemyr]

As another unsolicited aside, I'm wondering if anyone has any theories on the actual plot of the game. I'll start with my theory, pieced together from my own experiences and other sources. Since it involves the full scope of the game, it's obviously a spoiler, though since the plot is only tangentially related to the game, I'm not sure how severe a spoiler it is. (Another warning, I'm horrible with the spelling of the names in this game.)

Spoiler: The whole story as I see it

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It began as most stories of damnation do: with an act of curiosity and hubris. Scholars from the nearby academy of Byrgenwerth conducted an expedition into the ancient tunnels beneath Yharnam. While down there they found a chalice, the Chalice of Isz. The Healing Church took the for themselves and used it to make contact with Ebrietas, a Great One known as the Daughter of the Cosmos. Unable to communicate with it, however, they tried to find a medium between humans and Ebrietas. Seeking to understand the heavens, they began experimenting on people, pushing their blood healing techniques to create that bridge, ultimately raiding their own orphanage for test subjects and eventually kidnapping children to maintain their flow of specimens. Those children became the Celestials, the big headed blue guys you see once in a while (such as in one particular ravine in the Forbidden Wood). Although the Celestials were not able to communicate with Ebrietas either, they were welcomed into the Choir, the church's elite. Not all of their experiments were so innocuous, however. They also created the plague of beasts, which got into Yharnam and quickly infected everyone. Antidotes could only slow the progress of the plague, not stop it. They all became wolf beasts, and the church was forced to seal off the town in order to contain the plague. It worked to a degree, at least, in slowing it down. It's effects on the citizenry outside of "Old Yharnam" were slower and only came to the fore during nights of the Hunt.

The church made several efforts to stop the plague or at least destroy the monsters it created. Ludwig lead the charge for the church, and they ultimately recruited an ingenious craftsman named Gehrman to create weapons for them. Gehrman set up his "workshop" in the cathedral ward and set to work on creating "trick weapons", weapons that had two forms to accommodate changing battlefield conditions. Creating the Burial Blade for himself, he became the first Hunter - a layman equipped for and intent on hunting monsters. Eventually he was crippled and lost one foot, forcing him to retire from active duty. He trained many before he died. His heirs, however, had differing philosophies and, without Gehrman to mediate, the workshop faction fragmented and their base was abandoned. Through some means, likely the efforts of the messenger spirits, Gehrman managed to create (or was the first brought into) the Hunter's Dream, an eternal place of respite modeled after the home he'd left behind.

The Healing Church, however, was not the only faction that was active. The people of Cainhurst adapted an aggressive version of blood healing that resembled vampirism more than medicine. This was such an affront to the Healing Church that one of its number, Master Logarius, formed a faction of... well... vampire hunters to dispose of these Vilebloods. This faction, known as the Executioners, ripped through Cainhurst castle and obliterated everything in their path, Vileblood or not. Logarius tried to engage the queen of the Vilebloods, Annalise, but was unable to kill her. Instead, he stole the Crown of Illusions, using it to block the door to her throne room and sealing her inside. He then set himself down in front of the door to serve as a guardian to ensure she never got out and perhaps would one day starve to the point of vulnerability. Annalise, meanwhile sought out a champion for her slaughtered people, eventually sending an invitation to the player character.

Meanwhile, the academy at Byrgenwerth was doing their own research on the Great Ones and transformation via blood ministration with their own Great One, Vacuous Rom. As with Old Yharnam, the results were disastrous. Now Willem, the man in charge of the reseach, sits above the mirror lake, watching over Rom as well as his transformed staff and students. Since he's known to them, even in their transformed state, they do not attack him, but he's now too old to do anything but watch.

And so the years passed, and every once in a while a blood moon would descend and women would become pregnant with Great Ones, such as in ancient times when Queen Yharnam gave birth to Rom, but they always lost their children. There are now a number of Great Ones living in the area, cutting out small territories of their own. And each time one of these dark nights came, people were forced to either hide in their homes or become monsters themselves. But eventually each night passed and there was a sanity to return to. A Yharnam brand of sanity, at least.

Then you came. Looking for treatment for some ailment, you subjected yourself to blood ministration in order to be cured. The messengers found you and marked you as you were recovering and saved you from one of the first wolves on a night of the Hunt. Slowly over the course of the night the plague would transform and empower villagers that were not protected by incense and/or sturdy doors. But the messengers only fended it off for a moment and attacks you again as you try to leave the clinic. And then you died, if not by the hands of the wolf, then by the weapons of the villagers outside. But you were already marked as a Hunter, and were ushered to the Hunter's Dream where the messengers did their best to arm you and give you a chance against your killer.

In order to end the night, and free yourself, you are forced to cut through many of Yharnam's citizens, including infected members of the church, such as Father Gasciogne and Vicar Amelia. You made your way into the Forbidden Wood and to Byrgenwerth, where you did the first thing that really tipped the scales on this particular night. You killed Vacuous Rom, devastating the ghost of Queen Yharnam and triggering a blood moon. You then traveled to Yahar'gul, an unseen village buried beneath Yharnam, killing The One Reborn, a Great One they summon to kill you. While down there, you find the mummy of a scholar in a strange birdcage-like hat, and touching him pulls you into his dream. You climb the tower, fighting and killing him (he claims he'll forget everything he learned when he wakes up). You continue up the tower and fight and kill a Great One known as the Wet Nurse, presumably the one who kidnaps the infant Great Ones and raises them.

With the Wet Nurse destroyed and the source of the Great Ones slain, the Hunter's Dream loses its purpose and begins to self-destruct, slowly burning itself to cinders. German returns to give you one last gift: if he slays you in the Hunter's Dream, you will awaken in the living world, happy and healthy, as the dawn arrives and the long night ends. Refuse him and he will try to kill you by force. If you defeat him, another creature known as the Moon Presence descends and attacks you. I don't know what happens in this case as I haven't won it that way, but it's labeled the "bad ending" so I assume it destroys you utterly. If, however, you've collected and consumed three of the four "One third of Umbilical Cord" you can find in the game, its cutscene assault on you fails, leaving you free to fight it. In the aftermath, the Hunter's Dream is spared its fiery destruction and the living doll that remains there finds a small black tentacle monster that she picks up, mentioning her Hunter (you) as she cradles the abomination like an infant. What the monster is is unclear. Is it the Moon Presence reborn (as I initially assumed) or is it you, reborn as a Great One yourself, at last accomplishing the church's goal of creating a bridge between humanity and the great ones?

Anyone else have a read on it?

[Dire Ferret]

I don't have a big idea of the plot, I just wanted to clarify something about an ending.

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If you defeat Gehrman but haven't consumed the Umbilical Cords then the Moon Presence basically makes you the new Gehrman, leaving you in the dream to guide new hunters.

[Spacewolf]

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I have a similar theory except for a few points mainly spawning from my belief that source of the Beast plague was Loran. Considering that Loran seems to be built in a Series of caverns I would suggest that this is where they first found the Isz chalice. They then took this chalice to Byrgenwerth to experiment with it (But could not properly break the seals on the chalice) eventually capturing one of the Pearl Slugs (Augur of Ebritas) this proved to them that there was something greater to the universe therefore the Slugs were used to create a method to communicate outwards through the stars (A call beyond, the orphanage would also already be operating at this time) again this proved to be futile therefore studies returned to the chalice and they now break the seal and bring Ebrietas to the surface.

This gets the attention of the moon spirit who then creates the first hunters moon, during this time Vom is created, however she is not a child of the queen but one of the choir who has become a great one at the cost of their Sanity by eating the Umbilical cords of the babies created during this moon. Mergo meanwhile is the Wet nurse of the Yarnham Queen and having failed in her duty is cursed by the Queen (The moon spirit providing the power as the Queen was the surrogate for the spirits own child) while the Queen herself becomes a Ghost. Meanwhile Loran is overrun due to the lack of hunters leading to their creation. Since then this has happened an indeterminate number of times each time failing failing to produce a true old one instead creating the Larve you find occasionally such as from Arianna, the strongest of these become Celestial emissaries but are still not true old ones.

Interestingly the Old ones are always said to be Sympathetic to humans so I believe that they are not intentionally driving people mad but it's simply a byproduct of their existence, with the reason they want to help humans being that they cannot reproduce naturally but instead need humans to act as surrogates.

[Rosstin]

What's the deal with the...

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references to things being a "dream"? (It better not be "all just a dream" :P)

[TechnOkami]

I'm nowhere near through the game, but I'll likely try and mention something once I am.