A deeply confused Pathfinder GM

[Nohjanec]

Alright, well, first of all hello forum! Longtime reader of the comic, more recent TTG player. I run a Call of Cthulhu campaign with a fairly sizable group of friends (about ten of them)- none of us had really played any tabletop games before then.

Anyways, while CoC is barrels of fun, we're all excited to try something different so the intention is to start a Pathfinder campaign sometime in the next half-year or so. I have a Pathfinder core rulebook that I've read through a couple times.

Now, me being a newb to pretty much all of this (what I know of TTG's came exclusively through osmosis and from comics like this one), so the Pathfinder book came off as rather... daunting. Call of Cthulhu is a very simplistic game, and I still ended up boiling the rules down wherever I could in the name of fun. The Pathfinder core has long and nigh-incomprehensible sections describing rules for every imaginable situation. It's quite a lot of information, to the point that I can barely imagine grasping it myself, let alone explaining it all to the players. When can they make an Attack of Opportunity? How will I/they know when they can flank an enemy or when an enemy can flank them? Hell, how will I/they keep the terminology straight? I feel like our sessions would quickly turn into unescapable bogs of figuring out which rules are applicable and clumsy play as a result of misunderstandings.

I know the game has a reputation for being somewhat more complex than many other similar games, but I'm nothing if not determined. I want to GM this game and GM it well. I'm proud enough of my ability to GM Call of Cthulhu and keep a group of people of that size entertained and engaged and challenged. I'd like to do the same for Pathfinder, but I would love some advice from people more experienced than me. Thus my account on this forum- it seems like a good place to go for such advice.

tl;dr Other than reading the book enough times that I memorize it, how do I GM Pathfinder?

[Pronounceable]

tl;dr Other than reading the book enough times that I memorize it, how do I GM Pathfinder?

With practice. Much as any other system. If you've run one tabletop game system, you can run all tabletop game systems. Though you may not want to. It's cool. D&D and its variants are a really terrible choice if you don't like complicated rules. There are other games with less rules and I'm sure fine folks here who're %million more up to date on the hobby than me can give you examples of rules light, D&Dish systems.

But if you do want to run Pathfinder (or any other D&Dspawn), first step will be learning the rules and it's exactly like studying for an exam. D&D rules are like multiplication tables. You might've had to sit down and read that 7x6=42 over and over until you memorized it in elementary school, but today you just *know* it. It's a matter of playing more games until knowledge that a rogue can only be flanked by other rogues 4 levels higher becomes etched into your subconscious.

[Nohjanec]

With practice. Much as any other system. If you've run one tabletop game system, you can run all tabletop game systems. Though you may not want to. It's cool. D&D and its variants are a really terrible choice if you don't like complicated rules. There are other games with less rules and I'm sure fine folks here who're %million more up to date on the hobby than me can give you examples of rules light, D&Dish systems.

Well, yes, I know that. I'm sure it's true, but it doesn't really help me. Let me clarify my question a little- what can I do to ensure that our first sessions aren't completely horrid?

I'm open to other games, but I've already got the book and all. Plus some of them are pretty hype about playing a well-known, well-liked TTG. I'd rather run a good Pathfinder game, and if that's off the table then I'd probably look for something else.

[BWR]

Best thing: get a new player who knows how the system works who can help you with stuff. Probably not that easy to do but the best option.

You might need the Beginners Box. It may seem bitter to have to shell out even more for basically the same rules, but it does a lot of walkthrough of the basic rules. But 3.x is really meant to be played on a battlemap, and without that you will probably need to discard or fundementally alter several elements of the combat system. Sure you can always just wing it and allow the players to say what they want to do and determine if you think it will work ("I move to flank" "OK, but you're opening yourself up to an AoO if you do that") rather than leaving it to the rules, but this can quickly get overwhelming with the number of options and complications in the game.

The only other thing I can suggest is giving the rules a serious reading or four and either just accept that the first couple of combat encounters will consist of a lot of looking things up (sadly slowing down the game) or that you just run some practise combat outside of the real game to see how things work. Make some sort of party and enemies and just run through each point in the combat chapter on its own to get an idea.

Still, it sounds like you want to run a rules-light game if you felt the need to "boil down" BRP, in which case anything d20-based isn't for you. The mechanics are heavily combat focused and fairly intricate.

[Nohjanec]

Still, it sounds like you want to run a rules-light game if you felt the need to "boil down" BRP, in which case anything d20-based isn't for you. The mechanics are heavily combat focused and fairly intricate.

"Felt the need" seems a little strong- I didn't want to mire myself or others in what would feel like arbitrary rules when none of us had played TTG's before and none of us knew if we, in fact, enjoyed it. I'd love to play a game which has a strong emphasis on rules and systems now that I have experience with the intangibles of GM'ing under my belt. It's just feels a litte rough to get started.

[Yora]

Well, yes, I know that. I'm sure it's true, but it doesn't really help me. Let me clarify my question a little- what can I do to ensure that our first sessions aren't completely horrid?

Start very, very simple. Just have the characters go to a cave where they swing their swords and goblins and big rats. Don't try to be fancy, first you have to get familiar with the basics.

Pathfinder is good at what it does. But it may not neccessarily be what you want.

Why have you picked it as the game you want to run?

[Engine]

As others have said, start small. Characters should be 1st level; avoid creating your own opponents, try to use the ones you could find in the Bestiary.
Don't wave rules, do things by the book; when you're more experienced you could start homebrew a little if you feel like that.
Use the DM screen, it will be useful.
Print the Actions in Combat table.
Ten people at the table are too much, IMHO. Try to run a game with four, five people tops. Combat could take some time in Pathfinder even with small groups, ten characters would slow things down a lot.
Use a battlemap with minis or tokens during combat.
Keep fights simple: save those awesome, cinematic fights for later use.
Read the book a couple times before running a game. Use bookmarks.
There are apps with PF rules for smartphones, give them a look.

[Nohjanec]

Why have you picked it as the game you want to run?

Firstly, I got the book for very cheap. It was sold to me for literally the change I had in my pocket.

Backtracking a bit, when I decided to give TTG's a try, I did some fair amount of research. Obviously if you're getting started it's D&D that is the first thing you think about, and my eye was also caught by Call of Cthulhu (big Lovecraft fan) and Paranoia. We eventually settled on CoC, but while I was reading up on D&D, I stumbled upon the link between it and Pathfinder. I like the core ethos of the game.

[facelessminion]

Do you have a tablet or laptop you can use during the game? Pathfinder has an SRD with pretty much all the rules for it online.

[Red Fel]

The thing to remember is that PF was built on the shoulders of D&D 3.5, which (as you can infer from many, many threads in this forum) is elaborate. PF simplified some of these rules, but the structure and complexity still remain. There are mechanical rules in abundance for just about any combat activity, and it takes a lot of getting used to - both as a player and as a DM.

You might consider playing in someone else's PF campaign to get a feel for things. It is definitely an acquired taste. On the plus side, there is a great deal of opportunity to do new and exciting things; PF and D&D are designed around making great big heroes with a mighty arsenal of powers. (Or playing Monks.) But on the minus side, each of those powers involves new rules and mechanics, and exceptions to rules and mechanics, and skill checks and save DCs and ... It's a lot.

If you want your first game to be one you run, the Beginners Box already mentioned may be what you need. Consider running a simple one-shot with a few basic scenarios - a few small combats, a few skill checks, a diplomacy scene, and so forth - just to get the basic mechanics for each. Other than that, reading and re-reading the rules is basically how it's done. As a DM of CoC games, you know the importance of having a comprehensive understanding (if not an encyclopedic memory) of the rules. You probably spent a long time, whether it looks like it in retrospect or not, learning the CoC rules.

Well, new system, new rules, back to square one. It's daunting, but that's how it works. If I were to try to DM Ars Magica for the first time, I'd probably have to read the book several times through just to grasp the basics. If you're up to it, that's the best thing for it.

[Urpriest]

In general, it's best to start out as a player in someone else's game before trying to DM. D&D and Pathfinder are the sorts of games that you have to learn by doing to some extent.

[Bullet06320]

it may also help if you and your best "rules lawyer" of a player get together and run a solo campaign with him, help him learn the new rules with you, a couple of sessions one on one will help both get a feel for the game and the rules, so when its time to introduce it to the rest of the group, you have at least 1 player with some experience.
also have the other players at least read the core rulebook once before you all gather

[caimbuel]

Got this asked at a local game store. Told him to make a 10th level of each class, run mock combat using all the various types of combat. Get used to spells and maneuvers, grappling, etc. Mostly get comfortable with 1 book at a time and don't add more till you have each and every book at a comfortable level of mastery. Each book after the core rule book will get easier and easier. Also if possible get someone's ear to bug with specifics as they come.

[Odessa333]

Got this asked at a local game store. Told him to make a 10th level of each class, run mock combat using all the various types of combat. Get used to spells and maneuvers, grappling, etc. Mostly get comfortable with 1 book at a time and don't add more till you have each and every book at a comfortable level of mastery. Each book after the core rule book will get easier and easier. Also if possible get someone's ear to bug with specifics as they come.

I would second this. Reading the material till you are blue in the face can get tricky when things blur together. Just doing a few mock battles can help a lot for some people (myself included).

Second, if you forget a rule, don't be nervous to look it up on the SRD (or use google). **** happens.

Third, remember to be flexible. As you should know, players will throw you for a loop. Pathfinder gives lots of options, and they'll going to use them.

[Ezberron]

Third, remember to be flexible. As you should know, players will throw you for a loop. Pathfinder gives lots of options, and they'll going to use them.

This. Apsolutely this. Even after running PF for over a couple of years my players still curveball me from time to time.

One thing you might want to consider is looking into the PathFinder Society. It's a good way to get a feel for the rules of the game (the "learn by doing" example given above)

[Magma Armor0]

Start very, very simple. Just have the characters go to a cave where they swing their swords and goblins and big rats. Don't try to be fancy, first you have to get familiar with the basics.

Pathfinder is good at what it does. But it may not neccessarily be what you want.

Why have you picked it as the game you want to run?

Seconded this. Find a nice, online, free one-shot encounter or mini-campaign. Start small. Run a combat encounter, then some social encounters, then a small dungeon, just to get the hang of everything. Try stuff (like disarms, feints, diplomacy, jumps) just to get the hang of it.

Run at least 1 full session of goofing around like this to get the hang of the rules. Then you can start the campaign.

[JusticeZero]

And if your players are new, let them redesign their characters after the day of experiments.

[Trilby]

My 2 cents:

* Tell them what's going on: "Guys 'n gals, this system is new for all of us. Now, I'm as prepped as can be, but I will be keeping track of a lot more stuff than I had to for CoC, so bear with me."

* Start with a character creation session. Not only will this give you (hopefully) a coherent, somewhat balanced party who are already thinking about how to work together (making your job in general easier), it will also show you what sections of the rules in particular you will need to prioritise. If nobody is a diplomacy expert, you'll be better off preparing other sections first.

* For such a large group, I'd split the responsibilities. Have your players know what their characters can do (post-its with short descriptions make awesome cheat sheets). As some others have mentioned, 9-10 people is a pretty big job, precisely because you'll need to keep track of a lot of stuff.

* Collect vital stats. Know how much HP, AC, Sense Motive, and Perception modifier everybody has (roughly). These are the big ones in my campaigns, YMMV.

* Know about rounds and the action economy (swift/immediate action, move action, standard action, free actions).

* Know common ranges (for spell casting, ranged weapons, charging, movement speeds etc.).

* Know the general rules before the specifics, generally people will tell you if they can do something because they invested feats/spells/whatever.

If you feel comfortable with all this, just try a session, and find out what area of the rules you felt you were lacking in, then learn about those. If you can DM CoC, you can DM Pathfinder. You already know how to weave an interactive story, all that remains is to find out what you want from this new game, what your players want from it, and how to match those two.

[Lord of Shadows]

Lots of good ideas. My 2 cents:

If you have a local game store or two, see if any of them are running Pathfinder Society games. Pathfinder Society is the "organized play" branch of the game, sort of like the old RPGA that TSR came up with. See if you can sit in on a session (or even just happen to be in the store at game time) and watch and listen. Maybe even one or more of those players would be willing to help you out.

Also, there are a lot of online resources:

Paizo's official System Resource Document (SRD)

The third party D20 Pathfinder SRD (D20PFSRD)

And there is a lot of free stuff out there, both on the Web and on sites like DriveThruRPG and RPGNow

Hope this helps.
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[bjoern]

Like noted earlier, start small. Make level 1 characters and enemies and have them beat each other with clubs until you get comfortable with the move action/standard action/full round action steps of combat.

Once you are all familiar with rolling initiative and taking combat steps, introduce. One combat maneuver at a time. Get charging in there play with that, then bull rush, disarm, trip, etc. Slowly ease into it and make sense of the whole system one mechanism at a time .

[gr8artist]

Don't worry too much about combat maneuvers or complicated spells. Stick to the core rulebook, as those classes are the most straightforward. Avoid summoning, crafting, multiclassing, and any attempt at balance in the early games.
In your first game, keep it moving. You'll find a lot of situations will stick out at you after you see them unfold (AoO). Look those things up later to see how they work, and remember to incorporate them in the future.

[jaydubs]

I swear I'm not getting paid, even though I keep bringing them up. But try a new player game on Roll20. It's free to make an account. And there are random DMs that run introductory sessions for new players a few times a week.

[ElenionAncalima]

General Advice:

-Don't use 3rd party content. It add levels of complexity that you don't need at this point.
-Run something prewritten. It will help give you a feel for how Pathfinder is supposed to work. I would suggest doing this for the whole campaign, but it you really want to homebrew your campaign, at least run a prewritten module leading into it.
-If you use a laptop, keep the Pathfinder SRD open in a tab to that you can quickly double check rules.
-Alternatly or in addition to the SRD, if you are willing to spend a little money, the Pathfinder GM screen can be helpful as it has a lot of charts regarding skill DCs and some other information on the inside.
-Definitley start at level 1, as others have suggested.

Most importantly, communicate with your players. Make sure that they realize that the system is complex and it will be a learning process for everyone. Come to an agreement as a table as to whether it is more important to spend time looking up the rules when there is a question... or whether they would rather you make a ruling, then look up the rule for future reference after the game.

[ibtfu]

Have you considered running an OSR system like Labyrinth Lord instead of Pathfinder? Pathfinder is great, but d20 is a rules heavy system. 5th edition d&d might better suit your needs if you want something more current/popular--it likes on the spectrum somewhere between Basic D&D and d20.

[Lord of Shadows]

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D&D 5th Edition also has a Free version here
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