XCOM Enemy Unknown ...Help?

[Grif]

Perhaps... but it works. I suppose that makes it needfully complicated instead.

I stand corrected!

(I may as well use a new game to test out shotguns again.)

[Anarion]

Perhaps you (and most others apparently) play the game very differently. (And Impossible difficulty is again totally different from Classic.) The main problem I have with shotguns is that they limit your flexibility considerably. You have to close in the aliens in order to deal damage. Doing that on a map that has little or no cover (most UFO assaults) is tricky, to say the least. And even then, success is not guaranteed and that assault is as good as dead if he fails to kill the alien.

But hey, that's part of the challenge.

Shotguns are the single best weapon to take on UFO missions. They ensure a successful breach. I'm honestly surprised you'd hate them on UFOs. If you wanted to tell me that a couple of the freeway maps for abductions are bad for shotguns, I'll give you that because they're really long and the aliens won't approach you if you wait further back. But there is a legitimate best approach to UFO maps: clear out the outdoors, taking a high hill or wall with good cover, advance slowly, do not open any UFO doors, and then move all your soldiers up to a blocked wall and breach it in a single turn, killing the aliens from close range, using explosives if needed. Then you work your way through the rooms if it's a bigger ship.

I find the risk of triggering additional alien squads very much outweighs the risk of not being able to finish off an alien in a turn. I'm sorta paranoid about that now.



That sounds needlessly complicated.

The latter is because of the former. You trigger and then fall back in order to create the space to maneuver for flanks in an area that's safe to move your troops without triggering additional pods. Maps also get progressively easier when using shotguns: the first pod might leave you with very little area and require explosives to take down without needing to rely on advancing anyone. But then you have the space up to where you triggered the first pod to deal with the second, and after you've killed several aliens, you've now got a big chunk of safe map that you can use to fight from. The last pod is always the easiest because you can move up your entire squad and take your best possible shots without worrying about triggering anything else.


Edit: By the way, if you want to see an example of superb play including a ton of shotguns, and you also have 3 hours you didn't need to spend anywhere else. Take a look at this video from Beaglerush. http://youtu.be/TwO9YV6sZ4Y?t=25s
This is the long war mod, by the way, so some stuff will look different, but the basics are the same.

[Surrealistik]

Bit of an aside, I never cared for shotguns in LW beyond the early game when they're useful for putting down drone bumrushes, and terror missions where you get reliably bumrushed by Chryssalids. I think Beaglerush will struggle with the mid-late game of LW I/I assuming he doesn't change his class distributions since he's taking too many Assaults and Gunners and not nearly enough Infantry and Rocketeers which are far and away the better options due to their superior ability to crowd control (of paramount importance in a mod where activating three pods simultaneously is a thing due to random/overlapping pod placement and overcrowded maps) with minimal set up/support and risk in a wider variety of circumstances. X-Com and LW in particular is all about the AoE cover destruction/crowd control and mop up on the consequently flanked aliens, especially with stuff like ITZ being so patently broken. The need to be up close hurts shotguns in LW especially because of the heightened number of pods, greater number of aliens per pod, and risk of multipod trips; it's altogether significantly more dangerous and chancy than the alternatives without a commensurate return.


That all said, shotguns are indeed useful for clearing out UFOs in vanilla.

[Avilan the Grey]

Shotguns.... have a dip in the middle.
I feel, at least.
Even on classic, the early game? Shotguns are good. But mid-game? Not really. But the alloy cannon? It is GOD.

Even so, though, Assaults are situational and can usually only be used really well after getting lightning reflexes (to draw overwatch fire from say thin men, or sectopods, or...). And to use the Arc thrower, thanks to run and gun.

Also, Punch Mec should really be made out of Assaults, due to the 33% damage penalty for enemies close to them.

Thin men are tough, and battles with them often turn into trench warfare (everybody is overwatching everybody else) until you can break the stalemate (often with a grenade or an assault with those reflexes).

[Anarion]

Bit of an aside, I never cared for shotguns in LW beyond the early game when they're useful for putting down drone bumrushes, and terror missions where you get reliably bumrushed by Chryssalids. I think Beaglerush will struggle with the mid-late game of LW I/I assuming he doesn't change his class distributions since he's taking too many Assaults and Gunners and not nearly enough Infantry and Rocketeers which are far and away the better options due to their superior ability to crowd control (of paramount importance in a mod where activating three pods simultaneously is a thing due to random/overlapping pod placement and overcrowded maps) with minimal set up/support and risk in a wider variety of circumstances. X-Com and LW in particular is all about the AoE cover destruction/crowd control and mop up on the consequently flanked aliens, especially with stuff like ITZ being so patently broken. The need to be up close hurts shotguns in LW especially because of the heightened number of pods, greater number of aliens per pod, and risk of multipod trips; it's altogether significantly more dangerous and chancy than the alternatives without a commensurate return.


That all said, shotguns are indeed useful for clearing out UFOs in vanilla.

Oh, he's not using all shotguns. That was a very specific setup that he brought as a specialist team for beating the first alien troop ship landing. If you check out the other videos in the series, he has several rocketeers, a bunch of infantry, and some scouts and snipers. It's long war, so he's got like 3 teams rotating between missions all of mixed classes.

The point though was that breaching that really strong UFO was best accomplished through a specialized strategy that really shows off the power of shotguns.

@Avilon. There is a period where you have lasers but not laser shotguns and again when you have plasma but not alloy cannons where it's correct to rearm your assaults with rifles.

[Surrealistik]

Oh, he's not using all shotguns. That was a very specific setup that he brought as a specialist team for beating the first alien troop ship landing. If you check out the other videos in the series, he has several rocketeers, a bunch of infantry, and some scouts and snipers. It's long war, so he's got like 3 teams rotating between missions all of mixed classes.

The point though was that breaching that really strong UFO was best accomplished through a specialized strategy that really shows off the power of shotguns.

I'm not saying that he doesn't use other classes, I'm saying that his class balance is, as it stands, suboptimal given the context (LW I/I) where AoE and crowd control is king; this becomes painfully evident by the mid-late game in August/September onwards. Specifically, Gunners and Assaults ultimately end up sucking in comparison to their alternatives.

Beyond that I would disagree that mass shotguns is the best way to accomplish tackling or even specifically breaching a supply ship in LW, particularly when you can field so much cover clearing in that mod. As an example, instead of having to go through the long and arduous process of luring the Outsider back half the map away, only for them to engage in a firefight where they get to shoot and were likely to kill some guys (Beagle is jumping through hoops here to get shotguns to work), you could generally just drop a couple of explosives on the pod to destroy cover and/or deal a bunch of damage, then light them up with Infantry and Sniper massed fire while they're flanked from a comfortable distance. Quick, (relatively) painless and easy with minimum risk.

Example from Gaudium007, who was the only streamer to beat recent iterations of LW I/I to my knowledge: http://www.twitch.tv/gaudium007/c/4643884

Granted he does conspicuously fall back at one point, but that's because Chryssalids triggered close, and in LW, they close a ton of distance upon detection and bumrush you. When things get really CQC, he uses sawed off shottie secondary weapons, while the increased range of his weapons allows him to make a more effective stand/OW wall in more locations. Sadly this early on Gaud doesn't have enough boom to shock and awe the Outsider pod given the types of aliens encountered, but the range of his rifles certainly makes the difference in that encounter.



In Vanilla where you can't really pack piles of explosives, shotguns are obviously more valuable however.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My only problem with shotguns is that they tempt you to bumrush your aliens... possibly triggering other aliens and starting a wipe. You tell yourself "Oh, I can just run him in here and blow his head off". And you can. However, the other two groups you just triggered will have a little to say about that next turn.

I have two strategies I use. The first is an early rush for Carapace armor in the hopes that I can get an early clean Sectoid capture so I can get the beam weapon research credit. If I can manage that, I'll pick up Sniper and Heavy beams in rapid order. Because snagging sniper laser before that first terror mission can be godly. And the scatter laser can be used to counter Chryssalids. Particularly if you have Close Quarters on your Assault.

However, that strat is really only viable on pre-Classic difficulties. Once you hit classic, Carapace no longer is a guarantee against one-hit kills from aliens, particularly Thin Men. At that point, screw the research bonus and gimme the lasers so I have a chance of actually killing something! After all, if you are going to be playing Rocket Tag, you need a weapon that can also reliably kill your opponent.

Also, I've taken to equipping my Heavies with SCOPE rather than grenades. Sure, the lack of boom is a thing, but it boosts their accuracy to the point where the Laser Light Show can actually HIT something,

[Hiro Protagonest]

And to use the Arc thrower, thanks to run and gun.

Can't do that, unless it's been changed.

[KillianHawkeye]

I like shotguns in the very early game. They kill things.

When it comes to lasers, though, I stick with the laser rifle on my Assaults. I just really despise the scatter laser.

By the mid/late game when plasma comes online, I will usually get at least one alloy cannon for the Assault that is spec'd for close range and crit damage, but the others stick to more accurate weapons because we usually don't need more than one guy who can run in and murder stuff. The other guys can stay back and play it safe.

Might be different if I was playing Enemy Within, but I'm still trying to master Enemy Unknown and get the last couple of achievements.

[Avilan the Grey]

Can't do that, unless it's been changed.

ah. You're right. I was confusing it in my mind with the fact that i often use assaults to run and gun, use their PISTOL to get aliens down below 6 HP. Nevermind.

[Avilan the Grey]

GRR
I guess I have to sacrifice the meld on this damn mission... First container cannot be reached unless you trigger three sectoids, three thin men and three seekers. You can trigger only the sectoids first, but you cannot move close enough to touch the meld without setting off the other six.

GRR I hate it when the game uses meld as bait, especially since it's basically a must-have resource.

[Avilan the Grey]

Ah.
That was the worst map I have ever played.

To understand the problem imagine this:

Smallest UFO, on Smallest Map. One Meld Right in front of the right forcefield opening. Second Meld, it turned out, was behind the UFO. The map is so small, you cannot go past the UFO without triggering mobs.
Mob configuration: 3 Grey Bastards, sitting right on top of the first Meld. Three Thin Men right inside, that answers the backup call of the Grey Bastards if you don't kill them all or drive them to retreat the firs turn you fight them. One Outsider and two Seekers. The Seekers either triggered with the Thin Men OR with the Outsider. Never alone.
The reason for all this of course was that the smallest UFO's only have one small room, where all these were bundled together.

If I moved very very VERY carefully, I only set off the grey bastards. Problem is this was my third map in the game, so the accuracy of my soldiers were... making things interesting. Second turn after triggering them, the three Thin Men always arrived from inside the ship, no matter what I did. If I just held my positions and tried to rocket them to death, I was sometimes able to kill them without setting off the Outsider AND the Seekers. Since there was only one big room and nothing else in the UFO.

Anyway, I ended up having to play it very very cheezy. Every time one soldier got lucky, I saved. I reloaded from varioius saves 27 times before managing to win the scenario.

...And as the fourth map in the game is the french military convoy one. So now I am trying to get the TO the traitor with one rookie, two squaddies and one sergeant. Good times (not).

[Vitruviansquid]

There's nothing mandatory about Meld. I miss it all the time because meld is almost never worth a soldier dying, much less a squad wipe.

[Avilan the Grey]

There's nothing mandatory about Meld. I miss it all the time because meld is almost never worth a soldier dying, much less a squad wipe.

Oh I agree. But I want TEH STUFF! Especially since I am hoping for two mecs and gene mods eventually.

But my second post above is more valid anyway. Even if you didn't go for the meld (it turns out) you were basically dead anyway. As I said I finally did it, and am now in France... Hate that mission! Thin Men EVERYWHERE.

[KillianHawkeye]

Oh I agree. But I want TEH STUFF! Especially since I am hoping for two mecs and gene mods eventually.

Yeah... see, this game is just WAITING to punish you for being greedy.

[Avilan the Grey]

Yeah... see, this game is just WAITING to punish you for being greedy.

Hey. I have a time machine (reload ability). The Aliens don't. (How on earth I get 4 ppl and 2 mecs inside a Delorian is anyone's guess, though)

[Yana]

This is why you use a TARDIS instead. My Colonels like to do a few lengths in the pool while they wait.

[Avilan the Grey]

[Ailurus]

Oh I agree. But I want TEH STUFF! Especially since I am hoping for two mecs and gene mods eventually.

Even then, you don't need to push for all the Meld, unless you're in a "gotta catch them all" mindset. My current game, I'm probably about 60% through the playthrough, and I've got two level 2 mecs, plus enough banked meld to give three soldiers the most expensive gene mods for every slot (or 5 soldiers if I skip the memetic skin cheese shop). So, unless you're trying to get both the Mech and Gene Mod achievements on one playthrough, you're not going to run short. (Especially since as you get to mid-game, there's some enemies who will give you meld when they die in addition to the canisters).

[Avilan the Grey]

Even then, you don't need to push for all the Meld, unless you're in a "gotta catch them all" mindset. My current game, I'm probably about 60% through the playthrough, and I've got two level 2 mecs, plus enough banked meld to give three soldiers the most expensive gene mods for every slot (or 5 soldiers if I skip the memetic skin cheese shop). So, unless you're trying to get both the Mech and Gene Mod achievements on one playthrough, you're not going to run short. (Especially since as you get to mid-game, there's some enemies who will give you meld when they die in addition to the canisters).

Point about this map though, was that even after I decided to let all the Meld go, I had to reload TONS just to survive due to the setup. And in the end, when I finally got lucky enough to survive, I also had enough time to get all the Meld.

[Grif]

Even then, you don't need to push for all the Meld, unless you're in a "gotta catch them all" mindset. My current game, I'm probably about 60% through the playthrough, and I've got two level 2 mecs, plus enough banked meld to give three soldiers the most expensive gene mods for every slot (or 5 soldiers if I skip the memetic skin cheese shop). So, unless you're trying to get both the Mech and Gene Mod achievements on one playthrough, you're not going to run short. (Especially since as you get to mid-game, there's some enemies who will give you meld when they die in addition to the canisters).

Most of the other GeneMod stuff seems pretty underwhelming, if you forgo Mimetic Skin, with the sole exception of Secondary Heart.

Plus, I don't like the look of Gene-modded soldiers.

[thorgrim29]

I don't like gene mods myself, mainly because I tend to play Ironman and it doesn't make sense to invest too much in soldiers who will most likely die in a few mission (not yet played Ironman in Long War though, I'm barely managing and I play every mission around 3 times, that mod is extremely fun but it's punishing as all hell). That being said, I like to dedicate one soldier to covert ops (usually an assault, I name him Cover Operative and change his nickname to Bond) and load him up with gene mods. The most crucial one is the roof hopping, and the stealth mods are very helpful too. I may also mod a few colonels a bit.

Oh and Surrealistik, a gatling gunner specced for overwatch with ready for anything is a godsend on terror missions (or anytime you have to play tag the berserker really) and damn useful generally, I never leave home without one if the mission seems like it's going to be hard. Sentinel Infantry are also very awesome.

BTW, long war question. I'm finding that heavy rifles are very situational (I use them on terror missions) and that I almost never use carbines or SMG (unless I want a super fast taser scout). Am I doing it wrong are are those traps?

[Vitruviansquid]

Another Long War question - I just installed and started on the mod, and for some reason, I'm having trouble blowing up cover with the HE grenades. I can get the grenade to highlight a piece of cover and I've tried tossing the grenade nearly right on top of the cover I'm trying to blow up, but it generally doesn't work. Any ideas?

[Ailurus]

Most of the other GeneMod stuff seems pretty underwhelming, if you forgo Mimetic Skin, with the sole exception of Secondary Heart.

Plus, I don't like the look of Gene-modded soldiers.

Well, yeah, that's why I've been banking the meld. The eye mods can be nice for bullet swarm/suppression heavies (pupils) or snipers (depth perception), but a lot are underwhelming. As for mimetic skin, though, as nice as it is it can easily break the game (especially if you have a high level psionic with memetic skin.) So outside of going for the full-gene-mod team or one-guy-clears-a-crash-solo, I tend to just avoid the gene mods, and save my meld for turning badly injured veteran soldiers into Dreadnaughts.

[thorgrim29]

To reliably blow up cover with HE grenades you need an engineer with sapper (or lot's or grenades). Otherwise you only have a certain % of it working, I believe determined by exactly what the cover is and how far from the grenade it is. Even then, blowing through a ship's hull isn't a sure thing. Alien grenades seem to work pretty much always if the cover is destructible.

[thorgrim29]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! I just ran into a 56 health cryssalid It look about 2 stories high

[Surrealistik]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! I just ran into a 56 health cryssalid It look about 2 stories high

Indeed; X-Com Long War comes complete with Chryssalidzillas/Cloverfield monsters. Just wait until you see the Metal Gear Mechapod!

Oh and Surrealistik, a gatling gunner specced for overwatch with ready for anything is a godsend on terror missions (or anytime you have to play tag the berserker really) and damn useful generally, I never leave home without one if the mission seems like it's going to be hard. Sentinel Infantry are also very awesome.

As cool as the Gunner may seem, trust me, in the mid-late game, the Rocketeer is pretty much always better. Gunners just don't have the crowd control and cover clearing capabilities you need.

BTW, long war question. I'm finding that heavy rifles are very situational (I use them on terror missions) and that I almost never use carbines or SMG (unless I want a super fast taser scout). Am I doing it wrong are are those traps?

Heavy/battle rifles is a terrible weapon class that is almost never worth using.

Carbines are great for Rocketeers and Engineers since it offsets the mobility penalty imposed by the extra rockets you can equip to them and it reduces the scatter of their rockets via the aim boost, while Engineers do most of their damage via grenades (at least until you get the powerful utility nades like Ghost/Chem Nades and Mimic Beacons). I also like Carbines for reliable and consistent hitting on lower aim troopers, even though extra damage tends to be better on average after accounting for accuracy; reduced variance is certainly an important metric to consider. Beyond that, the mobility bonus offered by the Carbines while slight, often proves surprisingly useful.

SMGs I've never really been a fan of, but I concede they have uses, particularly on say bomb disposal missions. It's a pretty niche weapon class though.

[thorgrim29]

In the end it took me 3 tries but I manages to kill cryssalidzilla. Many civilians dies in that mission though because I had to avoid triggering 4 muton elides while I dealt with it and it's mini-mes

[Sharoth]

Does XCOM - Enemy Unknown / Enemy Within work on XP or does it need to be Vista and above?

[Avilan the Grey]

I solved the extraction mission quite handedly when metagaming.
Now I ended up where I don't want to be though, starting an abduction mission with only three soldiers (two heavies, one sniper) since I am out of non-wounded females and my new recruits of course arrive "tomorrow".

Oh well. Lots of reloads and many many rockets and this will be fine, I think.