Characters you can't stat in 3.5

[DeltaEmil]

Rincewind is a wizard with 9 int. If I remember The Colour of Magic well enough, he didn't so much memorize the spell as the spell hid in his mind.

World's Luckiest Man sounds easily represented by a bunch of luck feats, plus fortunes friend.

Actually, Rincewind was quite smart, he just didn't have any talent for magic (it was theorized that if he should die, the amount of magic in the discworld would increase). And there was the problem with the superuberepic creation spells that were sentient and hid in his mind as you wrote, filling all his magic slots, forbidding him from even casting the lowliest of spells. When Coin the Saucerer increased the magic level in the entire discworld, Rincewind did shoot disintegrating beams from his hands.

Although it must also be noted that the earliest discworld novels had a somewhat different magic system than the later ones since Mustrum Ridcully became the archwizard, and that it changes from novel to novel anyway. In the discworld novel that first starred Granny Weatherwax with the female wizard Eskarina Smith, Granny battled the archwizard of the Unseen University by shapechanging around like in the battle between Mim and Merlin (but with a lot more sexual innuendo), throwing spells around as if they were marbles. In the novel where Coin makes his appearance, spells suddenly were a lot more Vancian, and it took years to memorize them and be able to cast them only once. In the later novels, the wizards all use magic a lot more liberally again, polymorphing bandits into talking pumpkins (with still their hats and boots on) and other things.

[SimonMoon6]

I am puzzled as to why you'd have such contempt for the statement. D&D is the iconic fantasy roleplaying precisely because it is a great vehicle for creating fantasy characters, and 3.5 is hands-down the most flexible edition of the game when it comes to character creation. Further, we're talking about the kind of game in which you can easily stat up the x-men, even though the system wasn't intended as a comic book superhero game.

It really depends how accurate you want characters to be.

Someone might say, "You can make Colossus. Sorcerer with Iron Body. Done. (Maybe add Still & Silent Spell)."

Someone else might say, "Colossus' powers aren't magical; his powers should work in an anti-magic field. He should be able to change back and forth at will, with no limit on number of times he can change. His superhuman strength allows him to lift 75 tons, so he needs to be able to do that. He needs to gain that strength at precisely the same time that he gains a body of iron." And then on top of that, Colossus doesn't have *any* other powers, so if he's a sorcerer, he's doing it wrong, since a sorcerer would have tons of other superpowers (well, spells actually).

And I'd agree with the latter statement. D&D is a terrible game for simulating a wide variety of characters. That doesn't mean it's a bad system. Rather, it only does the few very limited things that it can do. Some people are happy with very vague approximations, but that's not really the same thing as actually statting up a character with any accuracy.

Superman is a great example of someone you can't make. But if you think he's too powerful, try "just" making the Silver Age Flash. He can travel faster than the speed of light. (But, no, he doesn't have any Monk or Barbarian powers, in case you're thinking "start with fast movement...".) He can travel through time under his own power (again, this is not a spell or a magic item or even a supernatural ability; it's science). He can vibrate through walls or other objects (no, he's not casting Passwall). He can even travel to alternate Earths under his own power. Can you do that without magic in D&D?

Or, let's try Firestorm. Oh, you're probably thinking "Flight + Polymorph Any Object. Done". But that's not Firestorm. First of all, he's two different ordinary humans who merge into one superhero, one's a stupid kid, the other's a brainy professor. And when they merge, the kid's in control, though the professor can give advice. And then they can split again, but the professor doesn't have any memory of what happened while they were merged. I can't think of any standard D&D abilities that let you make a character *exactly* like that. (He's *not* a psion using Fusion because he doesn't have tons of other psionic abilities.) They can merge regardless of distance or line of fire (unlike Fusion's touch range).

Plus, there are all the limitations on what he can transform with his powers, since his powers don't work on anything organic, so it can't just be Polymorph Any Object. And again, his powers are science, not magic, so they'd work fine in an anti-magic field. And there's more, but that's enough.

There *are* games that can make characters like these (even Silver Age Superman), but D&D isn't one of them. D&D doesn't do that sort of thing. It's not a very versatile game compared to a decent superhero game. That's not necessarily a flaw of D&D... but it's also not a strength.

[toapat]

I didn't realize Artificer was homebrew. And there are rules about combining multiple Magic Items into a single item that aren't homebrew.

Ironman isn't impossible, he is merely very expensive.

Golem armor is homebrew.

[ryu]

Golem armor is homebrew.

Who said anything about golems? It's just heavily enchanted into a large combined item.

[Hazrond]

Who said anything about golems? It's just heavily enchanted into a large combined item.

Question: when making a magic item are you allowed to use metamagic (like say a gauntlet with at-will X spell that is enhanced with reach?)

[ryu]

Question: when making a magic item are you allowed to use metamagic (like say a gauntlet with at-will X spell that is enhanced with reach?)

From what I've read you can. Also artificer features will come in handy if you don't want every use of say a wand to be metamagiced. Fun isn't it?

[facelessminion]

You can easily create a build that replicates her abilities, but you can't explain Elsa herself in the framework of that build. The game makes assumptions that aren't borne out in her life. She's close to epic level and she's done zero adventuring.

And I can't think of a spellcasting mechanic in 3.5, Vancian or otherwise, that allows a character to cast a spell without realizing it's been cast. Elsa creates conditions very much like a Fimbulwinter, but she has no idea she's even done this. I've never heard of spellcasting in 3.5 that isn't intentional, but in Frozen this is a central element of the plot.

.

Yeaaah, the high level thing is very simple in the context of Dungeons and Dragons: Elsa starts out high level because the campaign starts out high level. You don't need to try and justify backstory for a high-level campaign with x number of kobolds killed.

[facelessminion]

Another thought on Elsa, since her accidental uses of powers was brought up as a problem: Throughout the movie, Elsa is a villain, causing a crisis. One portion of the party attempts to resolve the crisis via social encounters. Another party member, the secretly evil rogue, goes for straight combat. :p

[3WhiteFox3]

One thing I'm not seeing in the arguments against 3.5 being a flexible system is any definition of what flexible means? Flexible compared to what. I know of few systems with as much versatility without DM intervention or fiat. Even the systems best known for their flexibility.

Fate (and other narrative-focused games)- Seeing as how Fate is really more of a toolkit for a GM in the first place, it basically runs entirely on GM fiat to model characters.

Hero System/Gurps (and other 'universal' point-based systems) - Both systems have their issues with modeling characters (several characters have abilities that explicitly require the GM to ok, custom advantages or disadvantages especially). Not to mention that both might have strong flexibility, they both have issues with balance and with high complexity (even worse than 3.5 in some cases).

Mutants and Masterminds - I haven't played with this system enough to really say, but seeing as how it's a d20 system in the first place, means that a lot of it's flexibility is shared with 3.5 anyway.

Genre-focused RPGs (Marvel Heroic System, Call of Cthulhu, etc...) Usually these systems are really good at modeling the characters for their genre, but as for others.

And let's say you disagree with a few of my stated systems, that only means that 3.5 isn't the only flexible system or most flexible system. Not that it isn't flexible.

From my experience, D&D works really well to model characters without having to rely too much on fiat. Also, don't confuse character with character concept. Naruto is a character; loud, brash supposedly sneaky guy with clones and lots of power is a concept.

[Arbane]

Hero System/Gurps (and other 'universal' point-based systems) - Both systems have their issues with modeling characters (several characters have abilities that explicitly require the GM to ok, custom advantages or disadvantages especially). Not to mention that both might have strong flexibility, they both have issues with balance and with high complexity (even worse than 3.5 in some cases).

...As opposed to D&D, where Pun-pun is PERFECTLY OKAY because rules.

Mutants and Masterminds - I haven't played with this system enough to really say, but seeing as how it's a d20 system in the first place, means that a lot of it's flexibility is shared with 3.5 anyway.

You might want to look at it a little harder. It's basically a point-buy game with feats and saving throws, but other than that, it REALLY doesn't have much in common with 3.5.

[3WhiteFox3]

...As opposed to D&D, where Pun-pun is PERFECTLY OKAY because rules.

You might want to look at it a little harder. It's basically a point-buy game with feats and saving throws, but other than that, it REALLY doesn't have much in common with 3.5.

Fine, let's say I agree with both of those (not saying I do). That only proves that D&D isn't the only flexible system, or even the most flexible system. Not that it isn't flexible (I edited this in my comment, but you probably posted so quickly as to miss it).

Actually, making Pun-pun is completely doable using Hero System (there are powers that let you create your own powers at will, it's actually not hard to do with a bit of system mastery) and it can actually get worse (yes, things worse than pun-pun because pun-pun at least requires a specific set of events to happen). In fact almost anything that a D&D character can do can be done in Hero System. Besides I notice that you ignore the fact that it explicitly needs GM adjudication (the rulebooks themselves state this outright) thus negating the point. Because 3.5 can be just as flexible with if the GM allows third party or homebrew.

M&M - So you take the three things that are the most important backbones of 3.5 (the d20 resolution mechanic, feats and scaling spell defenses; remember 3.5 invented these, without 3.5 M&M could not possibly exist without inventing them on it's own) and you claim it isn't similar to 3.5? What's your basis for that?

[squiggit]

M&M - So you take the three things that are the most important backbones of 3.5 (the d20 resolution mechanic, feats and scaling spell defenses; remember 3.5 invented these, without 3.5 M&M could not possibly exist without inventing them on it's own) and you claim it isn't similar to 3.5? What's your basis for that?

Largely because the mechanics and style tend to be different. Yeah, you roll the same type of die, but that's largely where the similarities end (at least when you're considering 3.5 specific things).

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Where is Golem armor for Ironman coming from? Please give a full list of what you feel Ironman needs to be able to do and we'll give you items that can do it. They might use item stacking rules, but they won't involve any true homebrew.

Colossus- Use template/races like half ogre mineral warrior with an item that can put him in human form, or a human with a magic item that can be toggled on and off that grant Iron Body and Enlarge Person, or be a Synthesist Summoner. This will let you qualify and disqualify yourself from Warhulk and Hulking Hurler at will. He might not hit a 75 ton lift, but he will be in neighborhood. Two versions fail the "works in an antimagic field" test, but I don't feel that's a fair test since his world has anti mutant power fields.

Superman is too epic.

Silverage flash could be a Nomad/Elocater with time travel spells converted to Powers by an StP Erudite with all his teleporting fluffed as speed. As with numerous characters already discussed he'll need a PP recharge trick.

[ryu]

Where is Golem armor for Ironman coming from? Please give a full list of what you feel Ironman needs to be able to do and we'll give you items that can do it. They might use item stacking rules, but they won't involve any true homebrew.

Colossus- Use template/races like half ogre mineral warrior with an item that can put him in human form, or a human with a magic item that can be toggled on and off that grant Iron Body and Enlarge Person, or be a Synthesist Summoner. This will let you qualify and disqualify yourself from Warhulk and Hulking Hurler at will. He might not hit a 75 ton lift, but he will be in neighborhood. Two versions fail the "works in an antimagic field" test, but I don't feel that's a fair test since his world has anti mutant power fields.

Superman is too epic.

Silverage flash could be a Nomad/Elocater with time travel spells converted to Powers by an StP Erudite with all his teleporting fluffed as speed. As with numerous characters already discussed he'll need a PP recharge trick.

Also one hell of a strength score obtained with Cheese. When moving fast enough flash hits like a goddamn truck and that's by league standards.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Also one hell of a strength score obtained with Cheese. When moving fast enough flash hits like a goddamn truck and that's by league standards.

Honestly, I'm not very familiar with silver age flash specifically. I just gave a character with the abilities SimonMoon listed . A typless damage power could also be fluffed as speed. Whatever damage you want should be achievable with enough levels/optimization.

I might have taken a whack at a few of the other characters nobody else has that I'm not familiar with if the challengers had actually listed abilities.

[Harrow]

While 3.5 may not be able to perfectly simulate any character from fiction, I'd say it can do well enough with just about any character that you could place them as an NPC in your game and a player familiar with the source material would say "Hey, is that X from y?"

There are a couple things I find D&D has trouble doing 'accurately'. Precise, freeform types of magic, like Allomancy from the Mistborn Trilogy or Bending from Avatar. You can make some loose approximations, psions for much of the former and Shugenja for the latter, but recognizability drops off fast.

Another one is super lucky characters. "But just use luck feats-" No. Just, please, stop. They've hurt me enough already. I was so excited when I found out about luck feats, because I absolutely love luck-based characters. But, the feats don't make you astoundingly lucky. Instead of The World's Luckiest Man, you end up as Slightly Luckier Than Average, Oh Wait, Nevermind, That Was The Barbarian That Got 3 Criticals In A Row, You Still Missed After Burning Both Of Your Rerolls, which doesn't roll off the tongue quit as well. And I even understand why that is : Luck is messed up in D&D in general. You can't have billion to one odds falling in your favor left and right when everyone rolls a single d20 for everything. Again, you could approximate this. Factotum with Font of Inspiration, enough luck feats to ward off natural 1's, then fluff all his bonuses (up to and including his armor if you feel it necessary) as just being twists of fate instead of magic items and special training. Again, possible, but you start drifting far enough away that it may be difficult for others to spot the reference.

[Feralventas]

Any caster with a non-vancian magic system. How many times did Luke skywalker have to memorize Mage's Hand to get his lightsaber unstuck from the ice? How long does it take an asari commando to run out of "psi points?"

That's why you go for Ghost Hand, Improved Ghost Hand and Poltergeist Hand feats from Ghostwalk. Take say....ranger5 with desert fluff for Luke's upbringing, then Master of the Unseen Hand for proper telekinetic powers. Might want to leave it early or delay the later levels of the PrC as it Is more powerful than Luke was in SW 4-6. Dip Swordsage or Warblade for some more stylistic options in combat that can speak well of his growing wisdom, and round it out with a bit of Heartfire Fanner or Bard for the later influential/jedi-mind-trick type talents.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

@Harrow

Control element X characters can be tough, but I think a large portion of stuff most of them do that isn't wall of X, Yds damage to Z targets or A area, or summoning X elementals can be covered by thematic use of Prestidifitation and Telekinesis. Admitidly this is a bit of a cop out answer since it requires player fiat to not do more with these spells than the characters their emulating.

Is luckiest man alive a specific character or just a concept? To me the concept reeks of fluff. I once played a high level character named "Lucky" who told ludicrous stories and was missing one of just about every bodypart people have two of and there was a running gag of people not knowing whether he was incredibly competant and unlucky or incompetant and lucky. Without more information I'd go with something like Lord of the Dance; Perform to Concentration via undersong, Concentration or Perform to everything via ToB and other sources. Give him either Perform:Buffonery or Perform:Weapon Drill depending on the theme you want.

@FeralVentas

That's very elegant, much better than a PP recharge mechanic both for level of cheese and because Luke is a Guardian.

[Crazysaneman]

The Lady of Pain.
Just because... you know.

[ryu]

The Lady of Pain.
Just because... you know.

But D&D already has one of those. In fact that's where it originated. Well with that specific title, position, and such anyway. Not saying it wasn't inspired by something else.

[Oko and Qailee]

Superman is too epic.

Keep in mind for characters like this, they can be stated with 3.5. Superman isn't really that hard to build. He just has a strength score of "yes" for example and a Con of "definitely" with a Fort save of "lolmadeit".

Is it playable? Not really
Is it statted? Yes

[Hazrond]

Keep in mind for characters like this, they can be stated with 3.5. Superman isn't really that hard to build. He just has a strength score of "yes" for example and a Con of "definitely" with a Fort save of "lolmadeit".

Is it playable? Not really
Is it statted? Yes

Paragon Elan maybe?

[Anlashok]

Character you can't stat?

A martial who can beat wizards.

[ryu]

Character you can't stat?

A martial who can beat wizards.

Do they have to be competent wizards?

[Oko and Qailee]

Character you can't stat?

A martial who can beat wizards.

Because wizards in nearly everything else are woefully UP.

[Crazysaneman]

But D&D already has one of those. In fact that's where it originated. Well with that specific title, position, and such anyway. Not saying it wasn't inspired by something else.

"I regard this as a load of hooey, and want to prove it by making a thread of characters that _can't_ be done in D&D without either being epic-level monstrosities, massive houseruling, or having lots of extras irrelevant to the character. Original character ideas, or fictional ones welcome, as are attempts to make the characters in 3.5."

Doesn't say that it *can't* already exist, only that it *can't* be statted.

[Nilehus]

"I regard this as a load of hooey, and want to prove it by making a thread of characters that _can't_ be done in D&D without either being epic-level monstrosities, massive houseruling, or having lots of extras irrelevant to the character. Original character ideas, or fictional ones welcome, as are attempts to make the characters in 3.5."

Doesn't say that it *can't* already exist, only that it *can't* be statted.

Well, you...

...

Huh. Sonuvagun.

[ryu]

"I regard this as a load of hooey, and want to prove it by making a thread of characters that _can't_ be done in D&D without either being epic-level monstrosities, massive houseruling, or having lots of extras irrelevant to the character. Original character ideas, or fictional ones welcome, as are attempts to make the characters in 3.5."

Doesn't say that it *can't* already exist, only that it *can't* be statted.

Oh she can be statted. The developers just haven't done it because they have a fairly decent idea of what I, and every like-minded individual would do immediately upon that being an official thing.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Keep in mind for characters like this, they can be stated with 3.5. Superman isn't really that hard to build. He just has a strength score of "yes" for example and a Con of "definitely" with a Fort save of "lolmadeit".

Is it playable? Not really
Is it statted? Yes

The OP asked for characters to not be "epic monstrousities", the big boy scout is close to a definition of those words.

@crazysaneman

Tell me what you want your Lady to be capable and incapable of. I'd say I'll stat something that fulfills your parameters, but I'm sure someone will popin to contradict you before I finish. edit:also again literal "epic monstrousity" if anyone answering challenges is to follow the OP's guidlines challengers should have the respect to not put forth clearly epic concepts. You may well give level 40 Wizard as a concept and call us on statting it as a level 40 Wizard.

@Mundane magekiller

Entirely doable, the world just needs to be accomidating by not having equally optimized wizards.

Elsa can only exist in a game in which it's acceptable for a teenage girl to discover incredible untapped power. She can be modeled, but she may not be appropriate to every game. The same can be said for Paladins, anti-Paladins, anime inspired ToB characters that literally yell their manuevers, Pacifist VoP Monks, etc.

Any number of mundane builds can model mage-killers, but they'll only function in worlds with optimization ceilings for Wizards.

[Threadnaught]

Not sure if the statement that you can run almost any kind of concept is really true, but there's an almost thread-wide equivocation fallacy here: character=/= character concept.

Exactly and the statement that is being debated is about concepts, not characters.

Transmuting guy with artificial limbs is a concept, Edward Elric is a character. if You can simulate the rough feel and key abilities of a character, then you have used Dnd to create that .

Awesome, what we have here is exactly the reason the OP's premise is severely flawed.

Too many people in this thread are wanting their favourite fictional characters to be completely replicated in D&D 3.5, but the statement this entire discussion is based on, is about the ability to make characters that can do things that look like these fictional characters.
It's been bugging me since I read the OP.

Golem armor is homebrew.

Okay, ignoring the talking intelligent armour and just replicating the rest of Ironman's abilities... Full Plate enhanced with a fortune of Magic. Done.

The OP asked for characters to not be "epic monstrousities", the big boy scout is close to a definition of those words.

Umm, we're not allowed to go Epic for Superman? As in, the guy who can punch so hard he can cause a supernova sized explosion? The guy who can move several times the speed of light? The guy who can incinerate entire planets by staring at them? The guy who can survive being hit by multiple supernovas? The guy who can hear sounds millions of miles away? The guy who can create hurricane force winds by blowing hard? The guy who can freeze anything by blowing gently? The guy who can move planets?