Watch Durkoala explore the Magical Girl Genre! Part 1: Card Captor Sakura

[Dragonus45]

So reading this got me interested in reading the manga again and watching some of my favorite episode from the show which was great. But my love of all things clamp has kicked in and now I find myself half way into Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle, this will be the 4th time I have read it. I'm still confused about what the hell is going on.


Anyways I remember you mentioning moving to another series before long because of CCS' length. Do you have any thoughts as to what that might be.

[A.Shinohara]

The croquettes look pretty tasty to me. Presumably, the animator had a great time to animate food and cooking scene. All food looked quite yummy and colorful animated in almost every episode. Love it.

Got to feel for Meilin though. She has never been given a chance by the writer to be anything but an annoying girlfriend character and also did everything in the wrong place at the wrong time all the time. Her fate was doomed to begin with when she couldn't accomplish a damn thing even in her debut episode and then remained a buttmonkey among the entire cast since then. It's like they create and include her into the story just to demonstrate how nice and kind Sakura is as a person in comparison with her plus also to give Syaoran a chance to show the softer side to the eyes of the audience as well. Pity her though, just hope she got a bit better treatment from the writer more later.

[BWR]

So reading this got me interested in reading the manga again and watching some of my favorite episode from the show which was great. But my love of all things clamp has kicked in and now I find myself half way into Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle, this will be the 4th time I have read it. I'm still confused about what the hell is going on.
.

I've tried to read TRC but I just cannot get into it. I love xxxholic to bits but TRC just doesn't catch my interest in any way. I'm only struggling through it (veeerrrryyyyy ssslllooowwwlllyyy) to catch any bits with Yuuko and Watanuki.

[Reddish Mage]

Considering that character is pretty much the biggest case of Nominative Determinism since well before Dr. Evil, I think it's a good choice of word.

Maleficent is a portmanteau of "malevolent" and "magnificent." I think the idea was that foxes could be "malevolent."

[Dragonus45]

I've tried to read TRC but I just cannot get into it. I love xxxholic to bits but TRC just doesn't catch my interest in any way. I'm only struggling through it (veeerrrryyyyy ssslllooowwwlllyyy) to catch any bits with Yuuko and Watanuki.

Yea it can be a bit dense, but I'm a Clamp junky so not reading was just not an option for me.

[cobaltstarfire]

Maleficent is a portmanteau of "malevolent" and "magnificent." I think the idea was that foxes could be "malevolent."

Either way would work really. A powerful and evil Kitsune would find the words malevolent and magnificent being perfect ways of describing it. (ex the Kitsune in Okami)

That said yes I did mean malevolent, but I couldn't remember the word properly (I kind of figured I was using the characters name and not the word I was hunting for)

[A.Shinohara]

I've tried to read TRC but I just cannot get into it. I love xxxholic to bits but TRC just doesn't catch my interest in any way. I'm only struggling through it (veeerrrryyyyy ssslllooowwwlllyyy) to catch any bits with Yuuko and Watanuki.

I consider myself a huge clamp fan, especially with their earlier works. However, as for TRC, if we need a chart look like nuclear plant construction project as below to get the whole story and still rarely understand wtf is happening. Reckon that manga got a huge problem, IMO at least.

Spoiler: TRC 'wtf happend' chart. a bit CCS spoiler related as well. Don't open it if unfinishing both.

Show

[cobaltstarfire]

Thank you for posting that, I've been utterly confused about TRC forever, and despite trying to figure things out have never been able to fully nail every part down.


I honestly don't like TRC very much as it's mostly pointless incoherence for me in the long run (at some point everything started being drawn in a way such that I couldn't tell what exactly was happening either, though that is a really common problem for me with reading Manga). I still don't really like it very much, even with understanding some of the parts better now.

Music in the anime was real good though...but I'm biased there cause it's the same folks who did .hack//SIGN and LIMINALITY.



xxxholic though was pretty entertaining (the anime though makes Watanuki extra whiney and annoying)

[Durkoala]

So you’re thinking that Sakura x Tomoyo or Sakura x Yukito are no way possible then? Who know, this is Clamp, everything is absolutely possible.

Well, most of the time kids show don’t really want to go there when it comes to romance. Normally, they simply dance around it with the concept of ‘best friends forever’or maybe occasionally crossing the line a bit with undertones but in general nothing fruitful eventually happens in the end. For the sake of discussion, Do you think how serious are they on romance subplot? Will it continue being marginal or becoming an integral part of the story line?

I'm not getting much of a feel for Tomoyo and Sakura, for reasons I'll go into below. Yukito and Sakura... I think that if that happens, this story will have become a tragedy.

How serious I think the relationships will be? Given the idealistic tone, constant idea of romance and the general growing-up story that seems to be developing, I think that there will be some form of romance with a moderately heavy level of drama involved. So far, my money's on Shaoran and Sakura because they're main characters with similar experiences, ages and both obviously becoming aware of sexuality. I'm not sure about other characters, though.

If you’re asking me up until then or more specially, after episode 27. I think Tomoyo is still very much in the race, certainly not out of it at all. She has an advantage of being not only a bff but also a cousin. They’re very close and genuinely care for each other. Almost everything looks good on this front except only one thing: Sakura herself happens to like boys.

Personally, I like Tomoyo but never see her as a saint who gives Sakura unrequited love as many thought. I think she’s still trying her best as much as the other suitors (if there’re any) to get any attention from Sakura in her own way and want her feeling to be returned eventually. She's the same as everyone else to me on that regard. Considering nobody in this story takes Sakura’s crush on Yukito seriously so Tomoyo doesn’t need to give up on that yet and if they continue being a close friend like this until they both get a bit more mature then their relationship could definitely evolve into something else. I could surely see this happening and think that this is the best case scenario she could hope for thus far as long as Sakura has yet to find a boy or girl she can really like.

To me, Tomoyo hasn't really seemed serious in her pursuit of Sakura. Unlike Sakura, Meilin or Shaoran, she hasn't made any overt gestures of affection or competes for her attention, and she never tries any of the charms that the other characters jump at. Her relationship with Sakura is extremely complex, as while she clearly has feelings for the girl, she focusses on being a solid supportive friend, persuades her to accept greater lifestyles even though she's reluctant to do so, and also treats her life as some kind of art project. It's a really strange mix of manipulativeness and various types of geniune love, but she seems to have at least decided to wait until Sakura matures a bit before putting her case forward. Given how she's very happy for Sakura when she gets to spend time with Yukito, she's probably either accepted that Sakura might prefer someone else or is completely sure that Sakura will move past him (which is a bit of a contrast to Meilin, especially given that they're both very young).

As for Syoran, poor boy. If your presumption is correct. Having a crush on Sakura is the last thing he should do at Tomoeda. This is not a good thing for him at all given what his mission at this town supposed to be and having a jealous fiancé around as well absolutely makes things messier. Also don’t forget that this is a very stubborn kid who needs to take 20 episodes or so to warm up to the girl. Hence If he’s indeed falling for her, life won’t be easy anymore for him after this. We’ll get to see how far this development goes later.

Does Shaoran even have a mission? He just turned up one day and tried to mug Sakura for the Cards. I do think this assessment is pretty accurate. It looks like Li-kun is going to have a very complicated life soon.

I can't give a concrete answer on that because what little I do know leaves me feeling that the line is an extremely blurry one.

I don't think there is a difference between a god and a powerful spirit in Japanese tradition, but I could be quite wrong with that.

There's also the matter of meaning, there are many different words for all those sorts of beings, "kami" for example doesn't really mean "god" in the same sense as we mean when we say "god" And a god-like being may stop being a god because of something like losing their power or purity.

I expected as much, really.

If memory serves, there is an actual Japanese (Shinto, maybe? I don't know much about religion in japan) pantheon, so maybe there is a difference?

Aren't "kami" often contrasted with "yokai" in anime? The former is usually translated with "god" while that latter "demons" however, I think "yokai" are better translated as "fey, elves, fairies" or just "strange" or "weird" folk. I thought the distinction can be made that kami are more distant from humans, less physical, less base, and more likely to side with humans than yokai.

This reminds me of the concept of the Seelie and Unseelie Courts in Scottish folklore, where the fairies are divided into "good" and "evil" sides, although that's a very rough and rather untrue way to put it as both were capable of kindness and cruelty.

Anyways I remember you mentioning moving to another series before long because of CCS' length. Do you have any thoughts as to what that might be.

At the moment, I'm thinking of stopping or taking a break at the end of the season, which is episode 36. After that, I'll either start up another series for a time(probably Sailor Moon or Princess Tutu, but there are other series' that look promising) and come back to CCS later, finish CCS on my own, or alternate CSS episodes with whatever I watch next. I'll ask for a formal vote later on, but any feedback now is appreciated.

[cobaltstarfire]

I expected as much, really.

If memory serves, there is an actual Japanese (Shinto, maybe? I don't know much about religion in japan) pantheon, so maybe there is a difference?

There is, but I don't actually know if there is a difference and how much of one there is other than in terms of orders of magnitude. The creation myth of Japan is basically there were these two Kami who made Japan, and also begat some 8,000+ other Kami. Then one of them died and went to the underworld. After that the surviving one was sad and created Amaterasu (the sun) and the Moon (I think Susanoo?) with its eyes.

These guys are all also Kami. But I'm not actually sure if they're especially powerful/extra divine relative to any other Kami/spirits or not. Or just more important/well known within the massive framework that is Japanese mythology. Purity of being is much more important in Shinto than the divine beings in it's stories.

I'm not sure about Shinto itself, but culturally Japan is really inclusive too, there are some non-Japanese beings which are acknowledged as Kami. And some things in their mythology were incooperated from Buddhism (in some places Buddhist and Shinto shrines even share space together).

I think this may be for the same reason Hindu/Jain/Buddhist things intermix or have in the past really freely in India. Because a "god" is just a different level of existence that can die or still ascend higher, or fall to a lower existence, not a supreme being.

[Yuki Akuma]

My vote is for you eventually doing write ups for every episode of CCS, even if you take a break to do some other series.

I really want to see your reactions to when all the mysteries finally get resolved. And I won't get to see all of them if you finish at episode 36. :P

[Dragonus45]

At the moment, I'm thinking of stopping or taking a break at the end of the season, which is episode 36. After that, I'll either start up another series for a time(probably Sailor Moon or Princess Tutu, but there are other series' that look promising) and come back to CCS later, finish CCS on my own, or alternate CSS episodes with whatever I watch next. I'll ask for a formal vote later on, but any feedback now is appreciated.

Pricness Tutu is a great show, and Sailor Moon is the other classic show needed to really understand a lot of the references and subversion of newer shows. But personally I couldn't recommend Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha enough. Still I think it would work best as something watched after Sailor Moon.

[Qwertystop]

Pricness Tutu is a great show, and Sailor Moon is the other classic show needed to really understand a lot of the references and subversion of newer shows. But personally I couldn't recommend Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha enough. Still I think it would work best as something watched after Sailor Moon.

I would recommend Nanoha as well, but from the perspective of not having seen Sailor Moon or the first season of Nanoha (watched the movie version only).

[D_Lord]

If you need a break Princess Tutu would be a nice change and shorter.

[GloatingSwine]

Pricness Tutu is a great show, and Sailor Moon is the other classic show needed to really understand a lot of the references and subversion of newer shows. But personally I couldn't recommend Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha enough. Still I think it would work best as something watched after Sailor Moon.

You don't really need that much grounding in magical girls as a genre to understand Nanoha. It's not like Madoka where it's an intentional deconstruction of the genre.

In fact it helps more to know your giant robots. (And to understand that the slightly skeevy fanservice of the first few episodes* does go away quite quickly)




* Possibly someone forgot to tell the animators that, despite the origin of the character, this was not like their previous work...

[ThePhantom]

I would recommend sailor moon, it is a classic for a reason.

[Dragonus45]

You don't really need that much grounding in magical girls as a genre to understand Nanoha. It's not like Madoka where it's an intentional deconstruction of the genre.

In fact it helps more to know your giant robots. (And to understand that the slightly skeevy fanservice of the first few episodes* does go away quite quickly)




* Possibly someone forgot to tell the animators that, despite the origin of the character, this was not like their previous work...

Totally but at the same time I think the value of the show goes up if you go in with shows like CCS or Sailor Moon in mind, and yea the entire shift in the shows fighting came from a throwaway line one of the production staff made about her outfit looking a bit like a gundam.

Oh they knew, if you look at some of the ideas they had for the series before hand it was much more like the old school Magical Girl solves problems with magic but then makes them worse show in the same vein of Bewitched and the like. Also the style show of the show was much more cutesy. That said I don't remember any fanservice in the first few episodes? That said it's been forever and a half since I watched the first season. I usually just watch the movie so I can get to the AMAZING second season faster.

[Qwertystop]

That said I don't remember any fanservice in the first few episodes? That said it's been forever and a half since I watched the first season. I usually just watch the movie so I can get to the AMAZING second season faster.

Not linking it because ew, but do you remember the transformation sequences at all?

[Dragonus45]

Not linking it because ew, but do you remember the transformation sequences at all?

They were transformation sequences, those have been making me feel a little awkward since I was just a wee youngin watching Sailor Moon when it first aired. I classify those differently than fan service. Anyways I don't remember them being any better or worse than any others in the genre.

[GloatingSwine]

Totally but at the same time I think the value of the show goes up if you go in with shows like CCS or Sailor Moon in mind, and yea the entire shift in the shows fighting came from a throwaway line one of the production staff made about her outfit looking a bit like a gundam.

When you say "a bit" you're understating it. She uses the exact colour scheme of the RX-78, down to the fact that her magic effects are a similar shade of pink to the Gundam's beam saber. But it doesn't stop there, Fate's colour scheme and weapon are lifted from Gundam Deathscythe. It gets more obvious as the series goes on, Signum is Lamia Loveless from Super Robot Wars OG (down to the same voice actress), etc.

That said I don't remember any fanservice in the first few episodes? That said it's been forever and a half since I watched the first season. I usually just watch the movie so I can get to the AMAZING second season faster.

The first season is full of overlong transformation sequences and totally overplays the hot spring episode, and then basically completely drops all of it after about episode five. It is clearly the work of people who have just animated Night Shift Nurses, picked up a cheap license to an eroge series (Triangle Heart) and haven't quite gotten it out of their system yet.

They were transformation sequences, those have been making me feel a little awkward since I was just a wee youngin watching Sailor Moon when it first aired. I classify those differently than fan service. Anyways I don't remember them being any better or worse than any others in the genre.

They're roughly twice as long and focus much more on the whole "clothes disappearing". Seriously, they were creepball in the first few episodes and the fact that they almost disappear after that is a great benefit to the show.

[Yuki Akuma]

The whole "naked transformation" thing is meant to symbolise, like, casting off your mundane life and innocence and all that jazz. Japan has somewhat different ideas about nudity in media than America does.

It is still played for fanservice though, when it comes to the older characters. Because Nanoha is aimed at adults (and, specifically, adult nerds), not kids.

[Dragonus45]

When you say "a bit" you're understating it. She uses the exact colour scheme of the RX-78, down to the fact that her magic effects are a similar shade of pink to the Gundam's beam saber. But it doesn't stop there, Fate's colour scheme and weapon are lifted from Gundam Deathscythe. It gets more obvious as the series goes on, Signum is Lamia Loveless from Super Robot Wars OG (down to the same voice actress), etc.

I think your overstating a bit for the first season, to the degree where it might turn off someone who has never seen it before. You have to know what your looking for to get the RX-78-2 references and Signum and Lamia are not the exact same. At most you have some fun pokes at them having the same voice actress.

The first season is full of overlong transformation sequences and totally overplays the hot spring episode, and then basically completely drops all of it after about episode five. It is clearly the work of people who have just animated Night Shift Nurses, picked up a cheap license to an eroge series (Triangle Heart) and haven't quite gotten it out of their system yet.



They're roughly twice as long and focus much more on the whole "clothes disappearing". Seriously, they were creepball in the first few episodes and the fact that they almost disappear after that is a great benefit to the show.

From what I remember it was longer and more detailed because they were only planning on doing them for the first few episodes from the start. Then stopped doing them altogether as part of the shows increased pace after the plot shifts. You know I cannot seem to find them anywhere, all the ones I find are the season 2 ones. I'll admit that makes me reconsider my point. I'll see if I can't go watch the first season again and check.

[Yuki Akuma]

Also after about episode 10 or so, Lyrical Nanoha stops being a magical girl show and becomes a super robot show where the robots are magical girls.

It's still great though.

[Durkoala]

Just a quick update. I've let some RL stuff mount up on me and I need to get it sorted out, or at least pushed back to a managable degree. Because of this, this thread is going on an indefinite hiatus. Hopefully I'll get it running again by the weekend, but I don't know how long it's actually going to take. I do fully intend to come back to this project because it's been a lot of fun so far and because I want to see how much you've been laughing at my misguided theories.

As far as the next series goes, I'm undecided. 40% says Sailor Moon because it's a classic MG series and one of the most well-known, 40% says Princess Tutu because it apparently has awesome ballet and fairytale influences, and 20% says something else. Currently, Nanoha is not on that list. Sorry, guys, but what I've heard doesn't sound exactly enthralling, or in line with my sensibilities. I might give it a go after something dark (PMMM or Sailor Nothing, cough cough) as a breather if it's as good as you say, though.

So, in essence, we're going to have a little break, then finish up the first part of Sakura's adventures and decide how to proceed. This will (unless there's a unanimous vote to keep going with CCS) involve another MG series and will not be about Lyrical Nanoha (at first). At some point I'll return to Card Captor Sakura, but I'll see how things go before I make any further pronouncements.

Feel free to suggest other series. Like I said above, I'd like to get around to reading Sailor Nothing at some point, so don't feel that it has to be restricted to animation or Japan. I'm wondering if I could squeeze Genocyber* in on the grounds that it's about a girl transforming to fight evil... Maybe for Halloween.

Your grateful host,

Durkoala

*An ultraviolent 80's OVA I discovered by accident and I want to have a look back at some point. Do let me know if you're interested.

[GloatingSwine]

Genocyber is terrible.

And I mean spectacularly terrible in the way that only '80s schlock anime really can be.

[Durkoala]

But it was such fun. I might even watch the dub, just for Maximum Awfulness.

[Dragonus45]

Symphogear is another good one, I don't know if anyone has mentioned. Also Sailor Nothing is utterly BRILLIANT but I feel it works best after watching at least a little Sailor Moon.