Dragon Age 3 III: Where Is Your Maker Now?

[Dienekes]

It's there for 2-handers to have fun. Don't like it, don't use it, simple.

And I won't, that doesn't stop me from being annoyed with the direction the game is taking with my favorite fantasy archetype.

[Bashhammer]

Dude, we're stabbing imaginary creatures in the face in a video game. Everything should be as TOTALLY AWESOME! *guitar meedley* as possible, and ridonkulous is usually awesome, at least to me. Seriously, i see Iron Bull whirlwind and i can just imagine myself yelling OH YEAH! Kool-aid man style while doing it, and if i can do that, it's officially awesome.

[Beowulf DW]

Well, Bioware has advertised a "Play Your Way" style, so if your style is to be awesome, be awesome. If your style is serious, be serious.

[Bashhammer]

Sorry, i have a hair-trigger temper, and this kind of stuff gets to me. Which is why i play video games! So i can take out my anger and aggression.

[Dienekes]

Sorry, i have a hair-trigger temper, and this kind of stuff gets to me. Which is why i play video games! So i can take out my anger and aggression.

You see, I also want my character to be awesome. I just have a different opinion of what awesome is. For me, an awesome warrior is fast, precise, and has abilities that focus on being the most skilled combatant on the field.

Swinging your weapon like you're wading through molasses and spinning around like a top doesn't do that. For me at least, it makes it look the opposite and propogates the myth that medieval weapons were weighty smashy ridiculous chunks of metal. They weren't, the heaviest melee weapons were about 7 pounds (except pikes, but that's because pikes were just supposed to be held in front of you and not really swung around). I also think there's plenty of design room to fulfill this, which just makes me sad that Bioware went back to the slow unwieldy looking combat.

[Beowulf DW]

You see, I also want my character to be awesome. I just have a different opinion of what awesome is. For me, an awesome warrior is fast, precise, and has abilities that focus on being the most skilled combatant on the field.

Swinging your weapon like you're wading through molasses and spinning around like a top doesn't do that. For me at least, it makes it look the opposite and propogates the myth that medieval weapons were weighty smashy ridiculous chunks of metal. They weren't, the heaviest melee weapons were about 7 pounds (except pikes, but that's because pikes were just supposed to be held in front of you and not really swung around). I also think there's plenty of design room to fulfill this, which just makes me sad that Bioware went back to the slow unwieldy looking combat.

I figured I'd look up Zweihander fencing just to get an idea of what it actually looks like in the real world.

This is one of the first things that came up.

The myth that medieval weapons were weighty is one that I'd love to dispel as well, but the fact is that some weapons were heavy by virtue of their design. There are records of zweihanders (some of which are actually on display in museums) that were in fact used that are about seven feet long and weigh close to ten pounds. Ten pounds might not seem like much, but that much weight swinging around your upper body will wear you down quickly. No zweihander wielder is going to be slashing around like demon.

[Dienekes]

I figured I'd look up Zweihander fencing just to get an idea of what it actually looks like in the real world.

This is one of the first things that came up.

The myth that medieval weapons were weighty is one that I'd love to dispel as well, but the fact is that some weapons were heavy by virtue of their design. There are records of zweihanders (some of which are actually on display in museums) that were in fact used that are about seven feet long and weigh close to ten pounds. Ten pounds might not seem like much, but that much weight swinging around your upper body will wear you down quickly. No zweihander wielder is going to be slashing around like demon.

My understanding has always been that the 10+ pounders were used for display and ceremonial purposes only. We've found battle ready zweihanders that have weighed half that. As to the video, it's interesting, but I have never seen a single fetchbuch that describes fighting with one that way. I also can't see how it would be useful, the guy was standing open for awhile and the rapier guys were just standing around him even when the sword was on the opposite side of them.

The best evidence I've seen on zweihander use was the Goliath fetchbuch which mostly shows their use similarly to a longsword with some pole-arm like features.

And this is going directly for the biggest of the big. Two-handed weapons also use dueling weapons like longswords and bastard swords which weighed a grand total of 2.5-4 pounds.

[Psyren]

And what is the historical weight of a silverite claymore infused with lyrium with two sockets? Or a pair of dragonbone "daggers" the size of small machetes with ironbark handles?

Demanding this kind of "medieval realism" in a setting that is neither never ceases to baffle me. It's not like the warriors are helicoptering off into the sky - we're still quite grounded. (No pun intended.)

[Dienekes]

And what is the historical weight of a silverite claymore infused with lyrium with two sockets? Or a pair of dragonbone "daggers" the size of small machetes with ironbark handles?

Demanding this kind of "medieval realism" in a setting that is neither never ceases to baffle me. It's not like the warriors are helicoptering off into the sky - we're still quite grounded. (No pun intended.)

In order to be a useful weapon? Probably no more than 6 or 7 pounds, and 1.5 pounds respectfully.

As for the desire for medieval realism, it's because the alternative looks stupid and spreads misinformation about these weapons. But mostly, it looks stupid.

[Beowulf DW]

My understanding has always been that the 10+ pounders were used for display and ceremonial purposes only. We've found battle ready zweihanders that have weighed half that. As to the video, it's interesting, but I have never seen a single fetchbuch that describes fighting with one that way. I also can't see how it would be useful, the guy was standing open for awhile and the rapier guys were just standing around him even when the sword was on the opposite side of them.

I suspect that it was just a theoretical demonstration. However, in such a situation (i.e. surrounded by enemies), I'm sure that any imaginative warrior could think of such a use for a weapon like the zweihander, or a polearm. Even if the object was merely to scare one's opponents rather than actually injure them, the effect would still be to clear some space.

The 10-pounder I mentioned belonged to a Frisian warrior that apparently once used it to "Behead three men in three heartbeats." Can't say whether that particular anecdote is true, but the fact is that it was used, and it was used well. I'm not saying that 10-pounders were common, mind, I'm just saying that it was done.

The best evidence I've seen on zweihander use was the Goliath fetchbuch which mostly shows their use similarly to a longsword with some pole-arm like features.

Yes, most sources I've seen portray its use as something between a polearm and a sword. Extra leverage can go a long way on a weapon like that.

[Dienekes]

I suspect that it was just a theoretical demonstration. However, in such a situation (i.e. surrounded by enemies), I'm sure that any imaginative warrior could think of such a use for a weapon like the zweihander, or a polearm. Even if the object was merely to scare one's opponents rather than actually injure them, the effect would still be to clear some space.

Swinging around once to clear space I don't really have a problem with. It's more the spinning around like a top with weapon being held perpendicularly out while you twirl that looks ridiculous to me.

The 10-pounder I mentioned belonged to a Frisian warrior that apparently once used it to "Behead three men in three heartbeats." Can't say whether that particular anecdote is true, but the fact is that it was used, and it was used well. I'm not saying that 10-pounders were common, mind, I'm just saying that it was done.

Hmm, I"m not saying your lying, but I am skeptical. My gut is telling me that this is like the legends of the 300 times folded katana or the 500 lb English longbow. Fun bits of legend that never actually happened. You got a source? Because, if this was true that be all kinds of awesome.

[Morty]

I honestly don't get what's so impressive about two-handed weapons being swung ponderously and slowly as opposed to being swung quickly and forcefully. Dragon Age 2 actually managed to make a 180-degree attack look good, too.

[StabbityRabbit]

Even if realism was a priority, this is what the majority of what fans wanted. Apparently lots of people didn't like "floatyness" of DA2 combat. Thus Bioware listened to the fans, and has made the combat "weighty", twenty pound greataxe weighty. I don't really mind because at least its not like DA:O where all the characters looked they were wading through molasses.

The truly frightening thing is that some fans still think the combat is "floaty".

[Beowulf DW]

Hmm, I"m not saying your lying, but I am skeptical. My gut is telling me that this is like the legends of the 300 times folded katana or the 500 lb English longbow. Fun bits of legend that never actually happened. You got a source? Because, if this was true that be all kinds of awesome.

It was from a library book I read years ago. I think the person's name was Donia, Cross of the Dutch, or something like that. Can't remember the title.

I honestly don't get what's so impressive about two-handed weapons being swung ponderously and slowly as opposed to being swung quickly and forcefully. Dragon Age 2 actually managed to make a 180-degree attack look good, too.

Dragon Age 2 also managed to make every two-handed weapon in the game look like they weighed close to nothing, though it looked good enough that I really didn't mind. DA2 also had a spin attack, now that I think about it. Whirlwind. It was the last skill in the two-handed tree.

[Psyren]

In order to be a useful weapon? Probably no more than 6 or 7 pounds, and 1.5 pounds respectfully.

"Here's a pretty thing - light as a feather, and hard as dragonscales."
"It possesses maximal efficiency enhancements, in addition to psionically shifting its mass as you strike to increase force."

It's fantasy. As long as something isn't simply too heavy to imagine wielding, like swinging a statue around, you can justify anything.

As for the desire for medieval realism, it's because the alternative looks stupid and spreads misinformation about these weapons. But mostly, it looks stupid.

You may not like it, but others do. This brings us back to the suggestion I made to you in post #330.

"Misinformation" is irrelevant - Thedas isn't real. The only thing it has to inform you about is itself, at least mechanically.

[Morty]

The truly frightening thing is that some fans still think the combat is "floaty".

Typical, more like. When I saw the 'lead cricket bat through molasses' animations in gameplay trailers, I was fairly certain at least some players had complained about two-handed weapons being totally unrealistic in DA2. I remember someone complaining that you shouldn't be able to run for five minutes in chainmail in the comments under a film about Kristoff the Warden made using Origins' engine.

Dragon Age 2 also managed to make every two-handed weapon in the game look like they weighed close to nothing, though it looked good enough that I really didn't mind. DA2 also had a spin attack, now that I think about it. Whirlwind. It was the last skill in the two-handed tree.

That's what I'm talking about, yes. It looked sufficiently forceful and dynamic, and pretty bad-assed to boot when you used it to cut down a swathe of enemies - which, because of the HP bloat, wasn't too common even against really week ones. As far as looking like they weighed close to nothing... I'll take it over looking as though they're made of lead. Swinging large, long weapons with fluid grace and forceful motion is the mark of a powerful warrior - unlike swinging them as though you were anaemic.

[StabbityRabbit]

Typical, more like. When I saw the 'lead cricket bat through molasses' animations in gameplay trailers, I was fairly certain at least some players had complained about two-handed weapons being totally unrealistic in DA2. I remember someone complaining that you shouldn't be able to run for five minutes in chainmail in the comments under a film about Kristoff the Warden made using Origins' engine.

Is that really something someone said? Shouldn't run for five minutes...Where do people come up with that stuff? Even if that was realistic it would be the most tedious thing in a videogame I've ever heard of.

[Morty]

Well, like I said, it wasn't in the game - it was a series of short films, made using the game's engine. There was a chase scene, in which Kristoff wore a standard chainmail set from Origins.

[dehro]

there should be a line dividing credible fighting animations from.. say, donkey kong style animation. I reckon where that line falls is different for each of us.

[StabbityRabbit]

Well, like I said, it wasn't in the game - it was a series of short films, made using the game's engine. There was a chase scene, in which Kristoff wore a standard chainmail set from Origins.

Ahh, my mistake then. For some reason my brain took "Origins' engine" to mean Origins' let's play.

[Psyren]

Hey, at least we're getting horses this time. No forced march from East Brecilian Forest to Orzammar and wondering how the hell Wynne stays on her feet, or Alistair in heavy plate with a kite shield.

[Beowulf DW]

Well, like I said, it wasn't in the game - it was a series of short films, made using the game's engine. There was a chase scene, in which Kristoff wore a standard chainmail set from Origins.

That would help to explain that one line in Masked Empire, actually. A chevalier in plate armor notes that it's entirely possible to run, jump, roll, and move quickly in heavy armor, especially if it's fitted to you, than "certain uninformed bards" claim.

[Psyren]

Easy for him to say - Chevaliers are the Orlesian elite. They're probably all rocking magic armor with like 0 encumbrance and max dex bonus.

[Dienekes]

No, plate is about 50ish pounds evenly distributed along your body. It's about the weight of a modern soldiers backpack, not even all their equipment. You can quite easily run, jump, do cartwheels, ect. Actually the mail armor that is generally considered medium or even light armor is much more difficult to move in as it's about the same weight with all of it resting on your shoulders. That line about uninformed bards is about the most accurate thing I've seen related to the game.

The only problem is breathing with your helmet on really, but you don't have to be wearing it all day. And while I personally wouldn't want to, marching in it over exceedingly long distances it was definitely possible. The biggest problem is urination, generally once the armor is on and you're expected to be in it for the rest of the day, you just piss down your leg. That would be near impossible to maintain over days. Though we do see later armor with detachable codpieces and the like, which would mitigate this somewhat. Still would be incredibly uncomfortable though.

[Morty]

That would help to explain that one line in Masked Empire, actually. A chevalier in plate armor notes that it's entirely possible to run, jump, roll, and move quickly in heavy armor, especially if it's fitted to you, than "certain uninformed bards" claim.

Hah, I like that. Heavy metal armour being extremely cumbersome is a persistent myth. Mind you, massive armour sets in Origins did look like they'd be extremely difficult to so much as walk in... those pauldrons, especially.

With that said, the Warden's merry band trekking back and forth across Ferelden, apparently on foot, was definitely something you shouldn't think too hard about. Getting access to mounts introduces some verisimilitude.

I kind of missed Origins' armour categories in DA2, really. The division of 'warrior armour' into medium, heavy and massive was nice, in theory - even if in practice massive armour was the best.

[Psyren]

I headcanon that, in lieu of horses, we recruit the Dalish first (since my Warden was Dalish) and get the cruise with the landships in style.

Though I'm sure there were horses, and Aurora was just crappy at rendering them (which it was.)

[Morty]

Which is also why the army at Ostagar had no cavalry and those Orlesian chevaliers supposedly arranged outside the border stayed conspicuously off-screen. Unless Loghain made them up entirely in the first place - I can't really remember. But yes, some horses and maybe carts are a reasonably safe assumption.

[Psyren]

There were no horses in NWN either so I think that was the issue.

[Beowulf DW]

Easy for him to say - Chevaliers are the Orlesian elite. They're probably all rocking magic armor with like 0 encumbrance and max dex bonus.

Actually, it was just regular silverite. Though, to be fair, he wasn't counting on the adventure he got thrown on, so he might not have been bringing his best. Even his sword wasn't enchanted.

[Psyren]

Actually, it was just regular silverite. Though, to be fair, he wasn't counting on the adventure he got thrown on, so he might not have been bringing his best. Even his sword wasn't enchanted.

Silverite is itself a fantastic metal though, much like mithral was in LotR. It is even believed by some to be innately magical, or at least alchemical. And, as you mentioned, his gear at that point may not have been representative of all chevalier.