New PHB-Havers: Thoughts?

[obryn]

I got my 5e PHB, and it has so far failed to ignite the fires of my imagination or convince me it's anything other than a slightly less-broken 3e. I will say that the Bard looks - somehow - even more broken than I had anticipated. Which is a surprise, at least. (Hi, I am Bard. At 10th level, I will steal your Ranger/Paladin-exclusive 5th level capstone-ability spells.)

Oh, the art is gorgeous. I have no problems with art or graphic design, so that's a plus.

Otherwise ... ehhhhh.

[Sir_Leorik]

Unlike obryn, I am very delighted with the PHB. I've already created a PC for D&D Encounters, and have had several ideas for other character concepts.

[akaddk]

I got my 5e PHB, and it has so far failed to ignite the fires of my imagination or convince me it's anything other than a slightly less-broken 3e.

OMG! I am so shocked! Shocked I say! Obryn doesn't like 5e? NO WAI! I could never have guessed that from all his previous posts...

[Telwar]

Oh, the art is gorgeous. I have no problems with art or graphic design, so that's a plus.

Only seen one re-use, ironically on the bard, with the tuathan art from Heroes of the Feywild.

[Demonic Spoon]

I got my 5e PHB, and it has so far failed to ignite the fires of my imagination or convince me it's anything other than a slightly less-broken 3e. I will say that the Bard looks - somehow - even more broken than I had anticipated. Which is a surprise, at least. (Hi, I am Bard. At 10th level, I will steal your Ranger/Paladin-exclusive 5th level capstone-ability spells.)

5th level ranger and paladin spells don't seem any more powerful than 5th level bard spells, or 5th level wizard spells. Having 5th level spells on a martial chassis like paladin and ranger is pretty strong, but that's more from the fact that you get them on non-casters than them being overly strong in and of themselves. I don't think the bard is as powerful as people are saying; they rely heavily on enchantment (i.e. save or suck) spells which are far less good in 5e than they were before, compensated for by good skills and some neat support abilities.

[obryn]

OMG! I am so shocked! Shocked I say! Obryn doesn't like 5e? NO WAI! I could never have guessed that from all his previous posts...

I was hoping it would convince me. It hasn't.

I'll give the DMG a shot.

[hawklost]

I was hoping it would convince me. It hasn't.

I'll give the DMG a shot.

You know, considering you have spent days even before you got the PHB complaining about the unbalance of the system and talking about all the stuff you hated, what made you think that seeing that stuff in person instead of responding to the players who talked about it would make it better?

You are never going to be convinced that 5e is good because in your mind, it can't be. You made your decision long before you had the PHB and therefore all you are attempting to do is cause arguments and fights on the boards it seems.

[obryn]

You know, considering you have spent days even before you got the PHB complaining about the unbalance of the system and talking about all the stuff you hated, what made you think that seeing that stuff in person instead of responding to the players who talked about it would make it better?

You are never going to be convinced that 5e is good because in your mind, it can't be. You made your decision long before you had the PHB and therefore all you are attempting to do is cause arguments and fights on the boards it seems.

Oh no! My evil plot to talk about elfgames and my having of an unacceptable opinion has been uncovered!

If you think I'm trolling or being disruptive, you can feel free to report me or ignore me. I've been trying to be constructive in my criticisms and open to honest discussion, but eh.

[Totema]

OMG! I am so shocked! Shocked I say! Obryn doesn't like 5e? NO WAI! I could never have guessed that from all his previous posts...

Posts like these make me wish there was some kind of upvote system on these boards...

[akaddk]

Obryn, I have two questions for you:

1) How many 5e games (and by that, I don't mean the playtest) have you played in?

2) Did you buy the PHB?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by akaddk
2) Did you buy the PHB?

First five words of the OP seemed to cover this pretty well.

[Yagyujubei]

I think it looks great, you know why? because it's simpler and more streamlined than 3.5, and not a videogame on a table like 4e.

whatever may be "broken" about it is only really broken if you make it that way or let it be. don't powergame so hard your character sucks the fun out of encounters. If you think your melee class is lacking in places then spruce it up a bit.

in the end the whole game is up to you man. this is just a framework.

[obryn]

Obryn, I have two questions for you:

1) How many 5e games (and by that, I don't mean the playtest) have you played in?

2) Did you buy the PHB?

I bought the PHB; it arrived from Amazon today, and as I said, I've been reading it. I am floating using 5e for our "interlude" game to my group tomorrow. (Other options include RC D&D and Marvel FASERIP of all things.) I'd like to give 5e a try; it looks like a substantially improved version of 3e. Which isn't what I was hoping for, but it's what we got, and since it's going to be the new default RPG for at least half a decade, I think it's my duty as a gamer to experience it.

Have you bought the PHB? How many post-PHB games have you played?

[akaddk]

First five words of the OP seemed to cover this pretty well.

Saying you got a PHB and unequivocally stating that you bought one are two different things. I "got" a PHB two weeks ago by downloading a scanned copy. I bought a physical copy yesterday.

Have you bought the PHB?

How many post-PHB games have you played?

A dozen or so.

[Sir_Leorik]

I was hoping it would convince me. It hasn't.

I'll give the DMG a shot.

Maybe you should, I dunno, play a session instead?

[Sir_Leorik]

I bought the PHB; it arrived from Amazon today, and as I said, I've been reading it. I am floating using 5e for our "interlude" game to my group tomorrow. (Other options include RC D&D and Marvel FASERIP of all things.) I'd like to give 5e a try; it looks like a substantially improved version of 3e. Which isn't what I was hoping for, but it's what we got, and since it's going to be the new default RPG for at least half a decade, I think it's my duty as a gamer to experience it.

Out of curiosity, what were you hoping for?

[pwykersotz]

I've been loving it for a while. It's true, it's not free of problems, but it's pretty freaking great. Other than the lack of going back to a Planescape cosmology (which is easy enough to put in myself), I'd be hard pressed to find something I don't love. I always play a caster. Always. Playing a Fighter in Lost Mines, and I'm having FUN! That is truly bizarre and glorious.

Out of curiosity, obryn, are you expecting mechanics to "ignite the fires of your imagination" or fluff, or something else?

Also, keep on posting. You've been a very welcome voice on these forums, at least to me. Your advocacy for critical thinking is appreciated.

[Sir_Leorik]

I've been loving it for a while. It's true, it's not free of problems, but it's pretty freaking great. Other than the lack of going back to a Planescape cosmology (which is easy enough to put in myself), I'd be hard pressed to find something I don't love. I always play a caster. Always. Playing a Fighter in Lost Mines, and I'm having FUN! That is truly bizarre and glorious.

The Planescape cosmology (or at least the Great Wheel, Spire and Sigil parts of it) have returned, albeit with the Feywild, Shadowfell and Elemental Chaos of 4E added as well.

[CyberThread]

OMG! I am so shocked! Shocked I say! Obryn doesn't like 5e? NO WAI! I could never have guessed that from all his previous posts...

I just hope he evetually learns to start liking it, or decides to stop being the cloudy day on the 5e forums lol.

[Theodoxus]

I too got my book today. From the (very) limited talk about monks, I was kind of excited pre-book to roll an elemental one. However, looking at the class as a whole, it's very... um... meh. I was hoping for something akin to a ToB Swordsage - and it was like a 4th Ed powers melee guy. Sigh.

Most of the subclasses are underwhelming. I do like Spirit Totem Barbarian - Bear/Bear/Eagle will be amazing. I hate the rage mechanic though, so again, kinda meh. I like that alignment is a guide, but not mandatory... Ranger - omg, what happened to the ranger!?! There's no happiness there - the hunter is bland and the poor beast master gets a downright ****ty pet.

Of the fighters, I actually like Champion the best. Maneuvers are so underpowered, they should be available to everyone... they basically took PFs Combat Maneuvers, made them class (and one feat) specific and crapped all over them. EK is underwhelming - though I guess there are so many gish lovers out there, I'm sure a lot of people are happy to have it core single class.

Rogue is probably my go to melee class.

Of the casters, nothing really stood out. Druid is super weaksauce - and what's with the pic with the tiger? They don't get pets - silly WotC. Clerics could be interesting, but they again stole from PF, made the abilities super weak and called it a day. Bard and Warlock look fun, though warlock is arguably the most complex class in the game. I can see lots of arguments arising from the poorly worded abilities.

Speaking of, it's been mentioned a few times, but it really is super obvious when you have the book - you need to read through it in full a few times to get all the 'choose your own adventure' esque page flipping to build a cohesive character. Once one has system mastery, it'll be fine - but until then, nothing is every explained in one place - you literally have to go through sidebars and page flips to find out what something is.

I never did find out how to generate the DC for the monks Stunning Fist. I know it's a Con save to resist it - but what's the DC? /shrug.

Also, the spell list is annoying - not having the class/level on each spell was just lazy formatting.


Outside of that though, I like the basic game mechanics. I like a unified proficiency table, the bounded accuracy to reign in uber numbers that create character disparity and make balancing encounters a chore. The skill system where you can use time and money to buy more - and more emphasis on roleplay than combat simulation. I can definitely see taking older systems and updating them to this - including classes. Moving abilities around and opening up options. It'll be a fun project. If only I could find players.

[obryn]

Out of curiosity, what were you hoping for?

Out of curiosity, obryn, are you expecting mechanics to "ignite the fires of your imagination" or fluff, or something else?

To both of you - it's hard to say. I've gotten books before that I've been skeptical about - 4e Neverwinter springs to mind - but on checking them out, I find that they're much, much better than I anticipated. This happens pretty often, really.

Most of my information about 5e has been from (1) various scanned pages, (2) blog posts, and (3) discussion with those who have the PHB. I was thinking those sources might be hopelessly biased, but I'm not finding that to be the case. Stuff like Contagion really is that bad.

I just hope he evetually learns to start liking it, or decides to stop being the cloudy day on the 5e forums lol.

Just because I don't like what I'm seeing much, I am trying to make sure that my criticisms are precise, to the point, and directed to specific gameplay concerns, rather than any kind of edition warring. I'm also discussing the good things about this edition, and to-date, whenever anyone's asked, I've told them to give 5e a try. I will try it myself. If that makes me a "cloudy day" you can feel free to ignore list me, if you like.

[SaintRidley]

Arrived today. Now, I didn't involve myself in the playtest because no time, so no real expectations.

I like the art. An overview of the classes and I see a lot I can work with to have fun. And the system is designed in a way that works for me - it echoes 3.5 in a pleasing way without being 3.5. And it's not 4e, which I feel just sacrificed everything on the altar of balance.

Not terribly enthralled with the realms, so a bit miffed that it's the default here.

It was nice seeing bits of text from various setting novels in the race descriptions. I got my first taste of R.A. Salvatore's prose through this, and I have to say, based on the selections given, I'm very much turned off the idea of reading anything longer by him than the three sentence snippets we get here.

The Great Wheel is back! And the lower planes back in their rightful place! The Blood War fan in my is pleased.

I'm going to say tentative thumbs up until I get a better idea based on the DMG and the MM. And the Eberron campaign setting so I can get my hands on Warforged and Changelings.

I did notice that the skeleton and zombie stats in the back have Con scores. Looks like nonabilities went away?

[obryn]

I did notice that the skeleton and zombie stats in the back have Con scores. Looks like nonabilities went away?

Yep. Every stat can see use in play, since each one is its own save. Even otherwise-mindless monsters might need to escape from a Maze spell.

[akaddk]

I too got my book today. From the (very) limited talk about monks, I was kind of excited pre-book to roll an elemental one. However, looking at the class as a whole, it's very... um... meh. I was hoping for something akin to a ToB Swordsage - and it was like a 4th Ed powers melee guy. Sigh.

Whut? The elemental monk is bonkers awesome! How on earth can you say it's "meh"? I can understand not liking it but it is anything but "meh".

Of the fighters, I actually like Champion the best.

The monk is "meh" but the universally derided Champion sub-class you find awesome. Yeah, you're not making sense here. Maybe "meh" isn't the right word to use.

I never did find out how to generate the DC for the monks Stunning Fist. I know it's a Con save to resist it - but what's the DC? /shrug.

It's right there in the monk class description. It's incredibly obvious. It takes up a large amount of space and is separate from the blocks of text in order to stand out.

Also, the spell list is annoying - not having the class/level on each spell was just lazy formatting.

Huh?

[Falka]

Maybe you should, I dunno, play a session instead?

Since when people test stuff rigorously before saying it's crap?

[Marius]

Whut? The elemental monk is bonkers awesome! How on earth can you say it's "meh"? I can understand not liking it but it is anything but "meh".

I don't care for the elemental monk ethier. But I really like the Shadow monk.

5th editions looks fun so far but it's too simple and streamlined for my taste. I don't think there's any way to use modules to change that but I'll wait for the DMG and see what options it has.

Some classes look great (bards, monks), others not so much (fighters, rangers). I don't like that rogues are not the best skillmonkeys in the game anymore.

And talking about skills, they really suck now. They're unreliable and the difference between a non proficiencient character and a proficiencient one is almost meaningless, especially on skills that aren't used often.

It didn't like the way they tried to balance spellcasters. I would've like a skill casting system (like the one in Fantasy craft) and a ToB-like system for non-casters instead of simply giving the casters less spells. But I did like the changes of many of the spells that needed to be toned down.

I'll try to get my table to try it with a one shot soon and we'll see.

Edit: Feats! They're better than before but not as good as they seem in the playtest. Some are almost too god to pass and others are almost as bad as some 3.x feats. There's also just a few feats and barely one or two that fit most concepts.

[ImperiousLeader]

I never did find out how to generate the DC for the monks Stunning Fist. I know it's a Con save to resist it - but what's the DC? /shrug.

8+proficiency+WIS ... it's in the Ki write-up.

[Chaosvii7]

Oh no! My evil plot to talk about elfgames and my having of an unacceptable opinion has been uncovered!

If you think I'm trolling or being disruptive, you can feel free to report me or ignore me. I've been trying to be constructive in my criticisms and open to honest discussion, but eh.

You won my undying respect when you intentionally ordered your PHB to spite either Lokiare or Captpike(can't recall which one it was.) Your concerns with the system are things that WotC did pay attention to, but whether or not you think they fixed them is totally your opinion, and that's fine.

I just hope he evetually learns to start liking it, or decides to stop being the cloudy day on the 5e forums lol.

Rude. Obryn is probably one of my favorite contributors to this subforum. He's never been a downer, or anything of the sort.

And to that effect, Obryn doesn't have to learn to like it; Nobody should be forced to like anything. Obryn is probably the most open-minded individuals regarding this edition. Might not love the system, but that doesn't stop him from making fair assessments of the content.

[akaddk]

I don't care for the elemental monk ethier. But I really like the Shadow monk.

As I said, liking it and saying it's "meh" are two different things. Meh implies that it's boring or uninspiring. The elemental monk is anything but meh.

And talking about skills, they really suck now. They're unreliable and the difference between a non proficiencient character and a proficiencient one is almost meaningless, especially on skills that aren't used often.

Don't know where you're getting that from. My experience has been wholly different.

There's also just a few feats and barely one or two that fit most concepts.

This is my one real gripe. There just aren't enough feats and, more importantly, not enough variety to the feats.

[SaintRidley]

This is my one real gripe. There just aren't enough feats and, more importantly, not enough variety to the feats.

Perhaps it's intended so that we don't run into a situation where every character will always choose a feat over an ability increase?