OOTS #961 - The Discussion Thread

[Lexible]

If I was a low level npc in OOTS and a protagonist walked by, I'd definitely introduce myself. I'm instantly elevated to named character and my odds of survival significantly improved.

I totally buy that!

We have seen how Roy puts the moves on women he is interested in. My comment was directed at what seemed to me to be an assumption a man and woman cannot have a non-sexually/non-romantically motivated connection or interaction. They totally had repartee and sizzly wits, but the folks chiming in that there's gotta be beef between Roy and Celia now seem to be forcing something that ain't there.

[137beth]

This completely breaks my theory that Roy actually knew what was going on but was lying to Belkar to protect his knowledge from Detect Lies.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hey, Firefly had a man named Jane. Sally could be just like Jane.

The spelling was different, though. It was "Jayne". Also, since she reported back to Bandana on the engine, I'm assuming she is Sally, since Bandana said she was asking Sally.

In other matters

1) Forced or not, accent doesn't come into play... cause obviously Durkula isn't speaking in accent, otherwise it would be Guh Hel! Knew? Thor Woont!... which would sound considerably different from Hell nay, Thor woont guh! Which is an issue in itself.

I don't think we've ever seen Durkon accent any of those words, certainly not consistently, and chants tend not to have much accenting.

2) Too much evidence proves it isn't Durkon: The slipping accent which aids in the confusing of the words, but requires he has no accent which Durkon has a heavy one; The fact that Durkon who is a prude is using cussing... unless he isn't cussing in which case why is he using Hel's name? The fact Roy has heard Durkon pray for years now and a sudden change in the prayer would stick out like Titan in a Pixie Grove.

Durkon's a prude? Are we reading the same comic?

3) Roy has claimed to be not another dumb fighter. If Belkar can figure it out, then not only should Roy figure it out, but should have a circumstantial bonus from Belkar's observations.

Belkar's way of figuring it out had very little to do with intellect.

No matter how you slice it, this isn't just forced, this is a mile wide/deep/long square peg shoehorned and sledgehammered into a meter wide/deep round hole. It not only doesn't fit, but it doesn't even make sense that a fraction of it can fit.

Now, if Roy was crestfallen and said, "This fiend is the lesser of two evils, until we can find a way to true resurrect him, or defeat the real threats first, we'll just have to be on alert and make do for now.", that would make sense. Him rationalizing keeping Durkula around like he rationalizes keeping Belkar around is believable... his being dumber then Thog's broken fang does not.

Needless to say, I disagree here.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Added: My interest in the question is because D&D's history and the skein of fantasy from which it was derived are mired in colonizing notions of irredeemable evil. The forums (and elsewhere on Earth) have many voices presenting a counter narrative where the individual always has a choice in whether or not to be or commit Evil (Amphiox and Zimmerwald, I think I would not be remiss in labeling you as voicing such). I am not aware of whether Rob has definitively said there are categories, like species or races, that are simply, unambiguously, universally and irredeemably Evil (e.g. vampires are always Evil).

We sure know black dragons are not.

The third word in my sig is a link to a quote wherein the Giant sees the possibility of Good vampires, and that they are free-willed.

[zimmerwald1915]

Added: My interest in the question is because D&D's history and the skein of fantasy from which it was derived are mired in colonizing notions of irredeemable evil. The forums (and elsewhere on Earth) have many voices presenting a counter narrative where the individual always has a choice in whether or not to be or commit Evil (Amphiox and Zimmerwald, I think I would not be remiss in labeling you as voicing such). I am not aware of whether Rob has definitively said there are categories, like species or races, that are simply, unambiguously, universally and irredeemably Evil (e.g. vampires are always Evil).

Who's Rob?

If you're referring to the Giant, he's stated that one of his projects is to criticize the labeling of certain peoples as Always or Usually Evil. There are probably other quotes that avoid the "applying sweeping alignment labels to non-biological creatures is okay" caveat, but I'm not going to bother looking for them because someone will probably have ninja'd me with one by the time I get this post into an acceptable form.

EDIT: it would seem the ninja in question is Jarxan Proditor! Congratulations on your mastery of speed and stealth.

An aside: I strongly suspect my theory of consciousness-formation is much less individualistic than Amphiox's, and that our alignment on this particular issue is incidental.

[Lexible]

Also, I have to say I am DELIGHTED that Andi is holding a screwdriver whilst saying "reversed polarity".

[Peelee]

how do you get 'hell' from 'Hel' when YOU WERE HALF EXPECTING HIM TO SAY HEL?

Roy should listen more carefully in order to hear that Durkon was saying "know" instead of "no".

How best to put this.....

Really?

...and how does anyone tell the difference between the spoken words "Hel" and "Hell", without Rich deciding to make a joke about it being a comic with an unreliable fourth wall?

Thank you for being a voice of reason. It saved a lot more WTF-style ranting on my part.

Hey, Firefly had a man named Jane. Sally could be just like Jane.

Jayne, technically.

[Lexible]

The third word in my sig is a link to a quote wherein the Giant sees the possibility of Good vampires, and that they are free-willed.

Alas... all the folks with their character stats or magic the gather deck flavors or whatnot in their sigs have driven me to turn sigs off. So I missed it.

[nrwillick]

This was a far more meaningful strip than it seems at first reading.

It establishes that Roy is (appropriately) uncertain of Durkon's loyalties and that he is bound to at some point realize that it is exceedingly odd that a supposedly non-theistic Cleric is supposedly praying to Thor.

Yeah... I guess it also establishes that Roy has no ranks on Knowledge: Religion. And that Celia will want to have a harsh talk with Roy in the future too.

I could have swore Durkula has prayed to Thor before...

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Oh, a chant that phonetically is a prayer for Thor and a prayer for his enemy.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

EDIT: it would seem the ninja in question is Jarxan Proditor! Congratulations on your mastery of speed and stealth.

Quite speedy, since those quotes were in my sig months before your post.

Alas... all the folks with their character stats or magic the gather deck flavors or whatnot in their sigs have driven me to turn sigs off. So I missed it.

Sometimes I forget that can be done. Here is the link.

[A Tad Insane]

Rich, you worked a bit to hard for that last panel. It is almost painful to read.

That being said, if someone would actually ever say something as cumbersome as that, it is phonetically exactly the same as what Roy thought he heard, just with a weird beat between "won't" and "go", and "hell" and "no". In fact, the flow of the two phrases are completely different, even if the phonetics are completely the same.

[ti'esar]

Also, I have to say I am DELIGHTED that Andi is holding a screwdriver whilst saying "reversed polarity".

Oh gods, I hoped I was just reading too much into that.

[Lexible]

Sometimes I forget that can be done. Here is the link.

My thanks to you and Zimmerwald for the link... it's an interesting thread. Buried in it now...

[ORione]

The fact that Durkon who is a prude is using cussing... unless he isn't cussing in which case why is he using Hel's name?

True. Durkon never cussed.

[Reddish Mage]

This completely breaks my theory that Roy actually knew what was going on but was lying to Belkar to protect his knowledge from Detect Lies.

You...really believed that?

The third word in my sig is a link to a quote wherein the Giant sees the possibility of Good vampires, and that they are free-willed.

I recall he mentioned or agreed that all the intelligent characters which The Giant writes are anthropomorphic in characterization and have human, not alien motivations. Even the devils and angels are all driven by similar desires and make decisions on the basis of motivations human would understand.

Undead would be no different. It follows from their human characterization the theoretical possibility that any intelligent "free-willed" (read as uncontrolled by magic) creature within Stickverse can choose good or evil. However, that doesn't mean that there is any reason to write such a character into the story.

Given that the Giant is not interested in criticizing the practice of painting devils or undead as always evil, there really isn't need to go out on a limb and write in a good one just to go against type.

I'm not sure why people mention it with Durkula, the vampire has shown he's quite evil and there isn't the slightest reason why the vampire should change.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I recall he mentioned or agreed that all the intelligent characters which The Giant writes are anthropomorphic in characterization and have human, not alien motivations. Even the devils and angels are all driven by similar desires and make decisions on the basis of motivations human would understand.

Undead would be no different. It follows from their human characterization the theoretical possibility that any intelligent "free-willed" (read as uncontrolled by magic) creature within Stickverse can choose good or evil. However, that doesn't mean that there is any reason to write such a character into the story.

Given that the Giant is not interested in criticizing the practice of painting devils or undead as always evil, there really isn't need to go out on a limb and write in a good one just to go against type.

I'm not sure why people mention it with Durkula, the vampire has shown he's quite evil and there isn't the slightest reason why the vampire should change.

My point in bringing it up is that the judgement "all vampires are Evil" cannot be made, and one cannot condemn a vampire just because that is their race. Whether or not a non-Evil vampire will show up in the story or if the High Priest of Hel would turn Good (both are probably not gonna happen) doesn't effect that point.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm not sure why people mention it with Durkula, the vampire has shown he's quite evil and there isn't the slightest reason why the vampire should change.

Sure there is. It's penned itself up with Durkon of all people, who is not only the Good-est or second Good-est person in the Order, but is also due for some character development. I, and apparently a number of other people in this thread, could imagine a story where Durkon at least tries to come to an accord with the vampire-spirit. This would necessarily involve the vampire-spirit giving up memory-sucking and cutting the tethers in which Durkon is bound; it would also involve Durkon learning to be a slightly more flexible thinker and to reevaluate his hatred of the undead.

It is also possible to imagine the story going a near-infinite number of other ways, of course.

[3Doubloons]

2) Too much evidence proves it isn't Durkon: The slipping accent which aids in the confusing of the words, but requires he has no accent which Durkon has a heavy one; The fact that Durkon who is a prude is using cussing... unless he isn't cussing in which case why is he using Hel's name? The fact Roy has heard Durkon pray for years now and a sudden change in the prayer would stick out like Titan in a Pixie Grove.

Durkon would have a very good reason of changing his prayer. Assuming he was still in control, he'd probably be celebrating that he's still his own person, thank Thor. Hence, it would make sense for "Hell no! Thor won't go!" to be a legitimate prayer in that situation. Of course, we know this isn't true, but Roy doesn't.

3) Roy has claimed to be not another dumb fighter. If Belkar can figure it out, then not only should Roy figure it out, but should have a circumstantial bonus from Belkar's observations.

Unlike Belkar, Roy has a very good reason to believe that Durkon is still in control: if he isn't, Roy lost his best friend and is letting an evil spirit parade around in his boddy. It's not an issue of smart and dumb, it's a case of the alternative being so terrible that Roy will not see it until he absolutely has to

[Gnome Alone]

Yes it would. Unfortunately, it wasn't what Gnome Alone was talking about. Hence, the ruination.

If it makes you feel better, I noticed the ambiguity caused by my use of the Elan smiley thing and decided to leave it in. Whether the choice of phrasing was felicitous coincidence or tomfoolery from my subconscious, I know not.

[zimmerwald1915]

If it makes you feel better, I noticed the ambiguity caused by my use of the Elan smiley thing and decided to leave it in.

It does, actually

On a completely different topic, the rafter in the penultimate panel seems to end...prematurely.

[Crusher]

Sigh. I know the pacing tends to slow down at the beginning of new books, and since the Order has been through a lot Rich wants to show how the emotional tone has shifted in subtle ways (Roy not needing to tell everyone what to do, V's changing perception of the concept of power, etc), plus V finally coming clean to Roy about everything, and establishing what's really going on with Durkon and how everyone in the Order views him now, as well as introducing the presumably noteworthy Airship crew members. So there's been a lot to address, plus the jokes.

But its been 22 pages since Haley parted ways with her dad and it feels like the pacing of the story within the strips has really been slowing down. I think Rich is being very deliberate to make sure he conveys the emotional tone just right, but I think the mark has been a bit overshot. I mean, Sandsedge wasn't quite the same situation, but still they were only there for 10 pages.

[Terrador]

A few things I saw in this thread, I think I can touch on and provide two cents for.

-So many strips to say Durkula isn't going to get found out immediately!
Rich values book pacing more than comic pacing. There have been fifteen strips since the start of this book, and HPoH had third-string development at best going in. Undo the calamity that is your mammaries*, friend--it'll pace better in the book, and will be sorely needed in the future.

-Augh, this punchline is TERRIBLE!
Maybe it wasn't the best in the whole wide world (in that the most immediate interpretation makes it seem REALLY forced), but there's an entirely reasonable interpretation that has HPoH mocking Roy and Durkon in one stroke. If you didn't enjoy it, congrats! One less joke for you in your lifetime, eh?

-Andromeda? Sally?
I'm secretly hoping that what happened is that Bandana knew Roy wouldn't know the crew members' names and knew that Andi sounded like a guy's name, and came to the conclusion of "use a generic female name to get the point across" before "use her full name, which a Northerner might not know is female and therefore specifically this person".

Spoiler

Show

please let this be so

In other news, I suspect this is Bandana's ex. Curvy, top fairly similar to the one Haley wears now, lives on the ship (so she could share a closet with B), and (here it gets super subjective) seems to have an immediate fraternal click with Roy (your agenda or lack thereof DOES color your perception of others' intentions, stereotypes be damned). I smell it in my gut, I do!

*love this phrase.

[FujinAkari]

Yeah... sorry Rich... this just straight up seems forced and breaks my suspension of disbelief :(

[Metahuman1]

Yeah... sorry Rich... this just straight up seems forced and breaks my suspension of disbelief :(

This. This just became official plot induced stupidity on Roy's part at a minimum, probably on Hayley's, and 50/50 on Elan's. (He might be Genera Savvy enough to be making a plan to deal with this, I don't know on that one, could go either way.)

Regardless, I HATE this sub plot/arc/what ever the hell it is, and the sooner it goes and dies in a ditch the happier I'll be.

[Houtienchi]

Roy might have a decent intelligence but his wisdom is at rock bottom

[zimmerwald1915]

Roy might have a decent intelligence but his wisdom is at rock bottom

Not according to his bureaucratic deva it isn't.

[Emanick]

Agreed -- it seems like a normal neutral-friendly conversation you have with someone who is slightly on your side through circumstance.

Construing it into anything remotely romantic is even more bizarre than Durk Malackssen's prayer. Unless we now consider acknowledging the existence of a person of the opposite sex is equivalent to slavering lust?

Odd stuff you encounter on forums.

It initially came across as somewhat romantic to me, too - but I think that's just because, in most fiction, it seems as though most characters of the opposite sex who immediately click inevitably become love interests, so my brain automatically drew lines that it probably shouldn't have. Fortunately, I very much doubt Rich is going to go down that path here, which is refreshing.

[oppyu]

Roy might have a decent intelligence but his wisdom is at rock bottom

Well... canonically he actually has decent WIS. There's not a lot of information out there about vampires, and Roy's using the ambiguity to delude himself and trust the dwarf-shaped parasite.

Still frustrating as hell to watch/read though.

[Ron Miel]

"taking orders from a kid"

What does this refer to? Basndana seems to be a grown up. Its hard to judge age from stick figure art, but Andi looks several years younger than Bandana.