If it has stats... (Challenge to the playground)

[Inevitability]

Hm... Plan C, just in case the other plan doesn't work. This involves a 20th-level gray elf wizard with 25 Intelligence (18 base, +2 racial, +5 ability score increases).

Spoiler: Plan C

Show

Round 1: Chandle of Invocation for an Efreeti.
Round 2: Have one Wish cast upon yourself for a +5 bonus to intelligence.
Round 3: Have the Efreeti PS you to the creature's location.
Round 4: Will a Sphere of Annihilation out of your Spell Component Pouch.

Spoiler: WTH?

Show

I know what everyone's thinking. However, look at this:

A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

And at this:

Material Component: An artifact, usually one of good perverted to this corrupt use.

A Sphere of Annihilation is an artifact. It also has no specific cost, fits in a pouch, and is not a divine focus. Therefore, it must be in your spell component pouch.

Round 5: Will the SoA towards the creature. Win.

[Immabozo]

Problem is the creature's in Sigil, so any plan involving massive collateral damage is a no-go.

A black hole will create collateral damage, but I dont think anyone could do anything about it.

Ah, that does make more sense. Still, a Sphere of Annihilation has more potential here than a Black Hole does, a Black Hole is merely going to exert vast amounts of pressure (bludgeoning damage) and keep it from escaping, but doesn't have any particularly supernatural ability to annihilate something.

Are you kidding?!?! A black hole is everything a SoA wishes it could be. Everything within several light years is sucked into the hole and utterly and completely destroyed. There is no bludgeoning damage, maybe some, but then there is ripped apart by massive gravity damage, and untyped damage and just utter destruction.

I would say if anything has a supernatural ability to destroy, it is a black hole.

[OldTrees1]

A black hole will create collateral damage, but I dont think anyone could do anything about it.



Are you kidding?!?! A black hole is everything a SoA wishes it could be. Everything within several light years is sucked into the hole and utterly and completely destroyed. There is no bludgeoning damage, maybe some, but then there is ripped apart by massive gravity damage, and untyped damage and just utter destruction.

I would say if anything has a supernatural ability to destroy, it is a black hole.

Black Holes obey real world physics, they cannot destroy. SoA can destroy. If the creature happens to be immune to death by damage (easy to accomplish since the challengers have been using it) then it will be safe inside a black hole.

[Immabozo]

Black Holes obey real world physics, they cannot destroy. SoA can destroy. If the creature happens to be immune to death by damage (easy to accomplish since the challengers have been using it) then it will be safe inside a black hole.

No, Black hole is just die. That is not damage, it is just die. Having gravity force you to exist in the same space as a super massive, and/or super dense material is not damage, it is just die. You cannot exist in the same location as something else.

[Inevitability]

No, Black hole is just die. That is not damage, it is just die. Having gravity force you to exist in the same space as a super massive, and/or super dense material is not damage, it is just die. You cannot exist in the same location as something else.

Unless you're incorporeal *trollfaces*.

[Squark]

To be fair, the chicken infested singularity... well, I'm not a theoretical physicist, but assuming gravity is propagated at C (and given the Higgs field does involve particles, I think theory suggests it should) it results in an ever expanding black hole that eventually holds everything not moving away from it at C within its event horizon.

Provided you pull like a googolplex squared chickens out, anyway.

Granted, what happens then is anyone's guess.

[rockdeworld]

Catching up, catching up...

Chronos's wizard (post 60): (ability loss)/(damage) occurs the round before casting Shapechange.

Heliomance's Chronos's Wizard's sister: Same result.

Kazyan's Wizard/Loremaster: I'm not up on Elder Evil stats, but don't they have an ability preventing people from knowing about them? Assuming not, (ability loss)/(damage) the round before Wishaport.

Jormengand's walker: the walk takes awhile, so your character takes (ability loss)/(damage) enroute.

Heliomance's Dvati pair: They bicker and then (ability loss)/(damage) *simultaneously.

Dire_Stirge: Your wizard becomes hostile and tries to kill the druid, then (if he survives) *5 rounds later the druid takes (ability loss)/(damage).

Lonely Tylenol's Frenzied Berserker: Infinitely high Knowledge checks don't tell you anything about this creature. Same result as Dire Stirge.

Kazyan's Dweomerkeeper (rounds 1 & 2): (ability loss)/(damage) the round before casting Wish.

Bad Wolf: I don't know enough about the Lady of Pain to point to information about her either.

*Edit for clarity

[Urpriest]

No, Black hole is just die. That is not damage, it is just die. Having gravity force you to exist in the same space as a super massive, and/or super dense material is not damage, it is just die. You cannot exist in the same location as something else.

You can, actually, that's how black holes work in the first place. (Broadly speaking. Depending on how you're completing gravity at high energies you either become part of a ball of string states twisted around the compact dimensions or your fermions collide until you are only composed of bosons. Either way, you are changed into a state that can occupy the same location as something else.)

This is the thing: if "being subjected to so much pressure that you lose fermi degeneracy" is a "no save, just die" effect, then so is being subjected to so much pressure that you overcome the coulomb barrier and become a neutron star, or being subjected to so much pressure that you undergo fusion, or being subjected to so much pressure that your body can no longer support itself, or being subjected to so much pressure that your head collapses. The latter, you may recognize, is the effect of being hit on the head with a club.

Basically, if we want to entertain a system in which "immune to damage" is a real thing, and doesn't just mean "immune to damage unless your enemy has sufficiently high Str", then we have to accept that you can't engender a "no save just die" through mundane means.

[Inevitability]

Dire_Stirge: Your wizard becomes hostile and tries to kill the druid, then (if he survives) the druid takes (ability loss)/(damage).

Okay... This is about plan B, right? How about plan C (the one involving pulling a Sphere of Annihilation out of thin air)?

Rework of plan B (should've used a candle from the start):

Spoiler: Plan B.2

Show

Round 1: Use a Candle of Invocation to summon an Efreeti.
Round 2: Have the aforementioned Efreeti send you to a place exactly 5 feet from the creature's location. Ready an action to Planar Bubble.
Round 3: FEELZ MAH PLANAR BUBBLE!
Round 4: ???
Round 5: Profit!

And, in case you missed it, plan C:

Hm... Plan C, just in case the other plan doesn't work. This involves a 20th-level gray elf wizard with 25 Intelligence (18 base, +2 racial, +5 ability score increases).

Spoiler: Plan C

Show

Round 1: Chandle of Invocation for an Efreeti.
Round 2: Have one Wish cast upon yourself for a +5 bonus to intelligence.
Round 3: Have the Efreeti Wish you to the creature's location.
Round 4: Will a Sphere of Annihilation out of your Spell Component Pouch.

Spoiler: WTH?

Show

I know what everyone's thinking. However, look at this:

A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

And at this:

Material Component: An artifact, usually one of good perverted to this corrupt use.

A Sphere of Annihilation is an artifact. It also has no specific cost, fits in a pouch, and is not a divine focus. Therefore, it must be in your spell component pouch.

Round 5: Will the SoA towards the creature. Win.

[Squark]

Chicken Singularity does run into a couple of problems, at least with regards to the challenge. It requires access to Dragon Magazine, which I'm not sure RockdeWorld is allowing, and even if you bypass that with something like the quarterstaff singularity mentioned earlier, there's still the question of whether black holes actually exist in D&D (Similar to create object shenanigans involving elements that weren't known in Medieval periods or antimatter).

[Chronos]

First of all, a black hole doesn't just "suck in everything within several light years". It has the same gravitational field as anything else of the same mass. A black hole with the mass of a star has the same gravity as a star. A black hole with the mass of a pig has the same gravity as a pig. The only difference between a black hole and any other object is that you can get much closer to a black hole before colliding with it.

That said, though, if you do cross over the event horizon of a black hole, death is as inevitable as next Tuesday. There is a singularity in your future, and anything you do within space to try to avoid it will only hasten the arrival of that future. Unless you have some means of avoiding reaching the future (which, admittedly, is possible with extremely high-powered magic, such as Teleport Through Time), you will cease to exist in the Universe.

Loss of Fermi degeneracy pressure is something that happens in the usual course of events during black hole formation, but it is neither necessary for black hole formation, nor the full extent of what a black hole does.

[Urpriest]

First of all, a black hole doesn't just "suck in everything within several light years". It has the same gravitational field as anything else of the same mass. A black hole with the mass of a star has the same gravity as a star. A black hole with the mass of a pig has the same gravity as a pig. The only difference between a black hole and any other object is that you can get much closer to a black hole before colliding with it.

That said, though, if you do cross over the event horizon of a black hole, death is as inevitable as next Tuesday. There is a singularity in your future, and anything you do within space to try to avoid it will only hasten the arrival of that future. Unless you have some means of avoiding reaching the future (which, admittedly, is possible with extremely high-powered magic, such as Teleport Through Time), you will cease to exist in the Universe.

Loss of Fermi degeneracy pressure is something that happens in the usual course of events during black hole formation, but it is neither necessary for black hole formation, nor the full extent of what a black hole does.

The main point is, nothing about "being in a singularity" implies death. I agree that the creature shouldn't be able to escape (though hilariously, Freedom of Movement might be enough to solve that problem), but that doesn't entail death.

[Chronos]

It might not directly imply death, but it does imply a lack of existing in the Universe, which (especially in a universe where being able to bring someone back from death doesn't even count as "legendary") is a far more extreme condition. Plus, if there's anything which can kill you, you're likely to encounter it before you get to that point.

[1pwny]

Fishing Attempt 1:
I have a Deck of Many Things, draw the Visier, and use its Solve Any Single Problem to solve the problem of my impending death by the creature. Or, if that doesn't work, then I use it to solve the single problem of the creature's character sheet.

Fishing Attempt 2:
I draw The Fates to avoid my impending death. I then use the remaining time I have to observe the creature in great detail.

[Urpriest]

Fishing Attempt 1:
I have a Deck of Many Things, draw the Visier, and use its Solve Any Single Problem to solve the problem of my impending death by the creature. Or, if that doesn't work, then I use it to solve the single problem of the creature's character sheet.

I assume you're getting the Deck out of your spell component pouch? Just wanted to clarify.

[1pwny]

I assume you're getting the Deck out of your spell component pouch? Just wanted to clarify.

I've obviously been holding it in my hands the entire time. Obviously.

BTW, I've always wondered: Is the "herd" in your sig a mispelling of "heard", or was it intentional?

[Brookshw]

A black hole will create collateral damage, but I dont think anyone could do anything about it.

Er, the Lady probably can since she can rewrite reality wholesale (see Die Vecna Die) and is at least on par in terms of power as an overgod, those buggers who can actually create crystal sphere's including the black holes (or maybe not, I'm not well up on my spelljammer as of late). The bigger problem is she'd probably be pissed you stepped on her razorvine garden and then you'd have an actual unkillable creature after you rather than just an unknown and amazingly lethal creature.

[Urpriest]

I've obviously been holding it in my hands the entire time. Obviously.

BTW, I've always wondered: Is the "herd" in your sig a mispelling of "heard", or was it intentional?

You can't have an artifact with normal WBL, unless you're using the "every artifact is in my spell component pouch because some idiot wrote Apocalypse from the Sky trick".

As for the sig, yo dawg I herd you like explanations...

[Immabozo]

Unless you're incorporeal *trollfaces*.

Incorporeal still exists on the ethereal plane (I think?) and two creatures cannot occupy the same spot on the ethereal plane? Maybe?

To be fair, the chicken infested singularity... well, I'm not a theoretical physicist, but assuming gravity is propagated at C (and given the Higgs field does involve particles, I think theory suggests it should) it results in an ever expanding black hole that eventually holds everything not moving away from it at C within its event horizon.

Provided you pull like a googolplex squared chickens out, anyway.

Granted, what happens then is anyone's guess.

I am talking about the Pig Bonded black hole shenanigans. I dont know how to make a black hole you of Chicken infested. Although you have NI chickens, they are not betting any denser.

there's still the question of whether black holes actually exist in D&D (Similar to create object shenanigans involving elements that weren't known in Medieval periods or antimatter).

They do. In the DMG, it says that the Prime Material is the most earth like. Earth orbits a star which orbits a super massive black hole (at the center of the Milky Way), and there is no RAW to the contrary.

Also, it is scientifically hypothesized that at the center of every galaxy is a supermassive black hole.

First of all, a black hole doesn't just "suck in everything within several light years". It has the same gravitational field as anything else of the same mass. A black hole with the mass of a star has the same gravity as a star. A black hole with the mass of a pig has the same gravity as a pig. The only difference between a black hole and any other object is that you can get much closer to a black hole before colliding with it.

False. The black hole pig has much more mass. It is very, very dense. Perhaps not on the level of the sun, or a sun, but the pig weighs something like 20^73 pounds. That is a LOT more than a normal pig.

[Urpriest]

Incorporeal still exists on the ethereal plane (I think?) and two creatures cannot occupy the same spot on the ethereal plane? Maybe?



I am talking about the Pig Bonded black hole shenanigans. I dont know how to make a black hole you of Chicken infested. Although you have NI chickens, they are not betting any denser.



They do. In the DMG, it says that the Prime Material is the most earth like. Earth orbits a star which orbits a super massive black hole (at the center of the Milky Way), and there is no RAW to the contrary.

Also, it is scientifically hypothesized that at the center of every galaxy is a supermassive black hole.



False. The black hole pig has much more mass. It is very, very dense. Perhaps not on the level of the sun, or a sun, but the pig weighs something like 20^73 pounds. That is a LOT more than a normal pig.

Since I didn't read the original thread on the subject, what was the argument for the pig's density? The feat tells you the mass of the pig, but presumably its volume scales accordingly, since generally pigs don't get dramatically denser as they get larger.

[Vhaidara]

Since I didn't read the original thread on the subject, what was the argument for the pig's density? The feat tells you the mass of the pig, but presumably its volume scales accordingly, since generally pigs don't get dramatically denser as they get larger.

Because the size of the pig never goes up. So as your strength increases, the pig gets heavier, but never increases in size. It's comboed with Cancer Mage + Festering Anger.

[Urpriest]

Because the size of the pig never goes up. So as your strength increases, the pig gets heavier, but never increases in size. It's comboed with Cancer Mage + Festering Anger.

The size of the pig never goes up because it explicitly says that somewhere, or just because it doesn't say it increases? Because generally when you increase something's mass its size also increases, especially if its a pig.

[Vhaidara]

The size of the pig never goes up because it explicitly says that somewhere, or just because it doesn't say it increases? Because generally when you increase something's mass its size also increases, especially if its a pig.

Because size categories exist, and since they never go up a size category, they're confined to a 5x5x5 space. You do end up with a 5ft cube of pig.

[Urpriest]

Because size categories exist, and since they never go up a size category, they're confined to a 5x5x5 space. You do end up with a 5ft cube of pig.

There's nothing in the flaw that says they're Medium to begin with, though. They're not even a creature, since there aren't any pig stats out there, they're a living object like a plant.

[Immabozo]

There's nothing in the flaw that says they're Medium to begin with, though. They're not even a creature, since there aren't any pig stats out there, they're a living object like a plant.

By RAW, yes, a pig is never defined. But whatever it is, the pig's weight scales with your NI strength to always equal your max load. No size categories are ever gained (or lost. Maybe this is how piggy banks are born?)

So with your NI strength, according to the weight allowance table, your carrying capacity doubles every 10 str points, or every 5 days with festering anger. In one year, your carrying capacity is 20^73 pounds and that is exactly what the pig weighs. The argument being, since it never gains size categories, it stays relatively the same, or similar size, but since it is getting heavier, it must increase in density.

IIRC, that is the point (20^73 pounds) when the pig's mass becomes so dense in collapses into a black hole.

[OldTrees1]

By RAW, yes, a pig is never defined. But whatever it is, the pig's weight scales with your NI strength to always equal your max load. No size categories are ever gained (or lost. Maybe this is how piggy banks are born?)

So with your NI strength, according to the weight allowance table, your carrying capacity doubles every 10 str points, or every 5 days with festering anger. In one year, your carrying capacity is 20^73 pounds and that is exactly what the pig weighs. The argument being, since it never gains size categories, it stays relatively the same, or similar size, but since it is getting heavier, it must increase in density.

IIRC, that is the point (20^73 pounds) when the pig's mass becomes so dense in collapses into a black hole.

False, the pig's volume is not defined at any point nor is it defined to be constant. Assuming its volume to be constant is no more valid than assuming its density is constant. Neither might be constant.

[Urpriest]

False, the pig's volume is not defined at any point nor is it defined to be constant. Assuming its volume to be constant is no more valid than assuming its density is constant. Neither might be constant.

One can reason further, actually. Since the pig can take on any mass in principle, and the only category for which this is within the typical weight range is Colossal, one can infer that the designers intended the pig to be Colossal by default. *Nods sagely*

[Immabozo]

One can reason further, actually. Since the pig can take on any mass in principle, and the only category for which this is within the typical weight range is Colossal, one can infer that the designers intended the pig to be Colossal by default. *Nods sagely*

Colossal is still a defined size and it only changes math. No wrenches thrown in the idea.

But back on topic, I think a black hole kills it.

[Heliomance]

I'm with the group saying "immune to damage" protects against black holes. A black hole simply does NI damage, which is a fairly trivial task in D&D.

[Immabozo]

I'm with the group saying "immune to damage" protects against black holes. A black hole simply does NI damage, which is a fairly trivial task in D&D.

I say infinite, but that is a matter of ... I am far too tired to think of the word. But I, actually, do agree and it is a fantastic example if infinite damage