The Elder Scrolls: It's the IX Divines, you milk-drinkers

[Divayth Fyr]

You can upgrade loot just as far as you can upgrade crafted gear, though. I'm armed with a bunch of unique gear that is also Legendary thanks to Smithing bonuses.

Not entirely true. Legendary is the highest tier of improvement you can get and because of that it doesn't have a cap on the bonus you can give to your items. Normal gear that falls under one of your blacksmithing perks can be upgraded with a higher bonus than an item that doesn't have a corresponding perk assigned (which is the case for a lot of the game's uniques). Both will be called legendary when you reach a certain point, but there will be a difference in how big the improvement is.

[Winter_Wolf]

Oh that sucks. :/
Hjerim is a nice house otherwise. I've only gotten it once, but it's definitely one of the best (assuming just vanilla homes) with its layout and storage capabilities.

My main problem with Hjerim is the number and kinds of hoops you have to jump through to even be able to get it in the first place. It is one of the nicest homes in Skyrim and has arguably one of the best layouts. It doesn't have some stuff, sure, but it's also not cramped and you get a nice view of all your trophies if you decorate the plaques and mannikins. But you can't get it until pretty late in the day, relatively speaking.

Is it just me, or do other people find that putting things into the display cases is both difficult and counterproductive? I mean, after very carefully placing whatever item(s) inside, closing the case assures that I can never see what I put in there because of the high wooden walls and the reflectivity of the glass.

Tangentially, Windstad Manor and Heljarchen Hall seem to consistently have issues with the weapon plaques in the bedroom wing. The items hang upside down and significantly higher on the up-down axis than they should. It looks like dragonborn said, "nah, I'm not going to sully this bee-you-tee-ful weapon plaque by putting anything on it, I'll just nail my trophy items directly onto the wall up above it." DLC only, DLC plus unofficial patches, with or without any other mods installed, even did the cache check thing (which was a huge mistake that took two hours but did not find a single error and I'll never be doing that again).

[Triaxx]

I purposefully differentiate crafting and improving. I'll probably craft items with any character. I mean, I'm unlikely to find unique armor lying about in the wild. But I probably wouldn't try to improve it, just because I can. Unless I find I'm under powered, then I might. But just making a new set of armor isn't going to turn you into the SuPer OP DragonBorn. It might feel like it if you jump from iron straight to orcish, but not necessarily.

Yeah, some one was't paying attention when they did the plaques in Hearthfire. Though to be fair, they're not the easiest things to work with. What looks right in the GECK does not always translate properly to the game world.

[Ailurus]

Not entirely true. Legendary is the highest tier of improvement you can get and because of that it doesn't have a cap on the bonus you can give to your items. Normal gear that falls under one of your blacksmithing perks can be upgraded with a higher bonus than an item that doesn't have a corresponding perk assigned (which is the case for a lot of the game's uniques). Both will be called legendary when you reach a certain point, but there will be a difference in how big the improvement is.

No, there is a very clear cap to the benefits of tempering. At 100 smithing, its +13 to armor or +7 to damage without the corresponding perk, +20 to armor or +10 to damage with the perk. That's well in line with the bonuses on found or rewarded items in-game. Using Chillrend as an example, since it was mentioned a few posts back, the level 19+ versions of the sword will do more damage than a legendary tempered dragonbone longsword. Smithing on its own is most assuredly NOT broken.

If you choose to use potions or enchantments to boost your smithing up into the stratosphere, then yes you will get higher bonuses that will still be called legendary, but don't blame the skill itself because you chose to abuse the system. Otherwise, we might as well throw out the following other skills as well:
-Enchanting, since it can give you 0-mana spellcasts
-Destruction, since the impact perk can let you stunlock just about anything
-Illusion, since with all the perks you can affect nearly all enemy types, up to level 103.4
-Restoration, since you can do the vampire necromage tricks
-Block, since Quick Reflexes trivializes any melee fight, and Shield Charge trivializes any fight with archers or casters.
-Archery, since a hiding place and even mild competence can let you clear a room with no risk to yourself
-Alchemy, since its fortify potions are necessary for most of the shenanigans smithing and enchanting get blamed for
-Sneak, since you can sneak attack a dragon (or just about anything) to death in one shot
-Pickpocket can not only be used to give you virtually unlimited gold, but also to murder people in plain sight with no risk of a bounty. Not to mention the ability to insta-kill certain enemies.

Heck, about the only skill in-game that can't be abused to make the entire game break down is lockpicking.

Now, if you think its a waste of time to craft a bunch of daggers to level smithing, fine. If it doesn't fit your character, fine. But Smithing is no more broken than any other skill in the game. If you claim you don't want overpowered gear, just don't blast your smithing skill up to 300 or whatever before tempering items.

[Divayth Fyr]

No, there is a very clear cap to the benefits of tempering. At 100 smithing, its +13 to armor or +7 to damage without the corresponding perk, +20 to armor or +10 to damage with the perk.

NeoVid mentioned tempering uniques to legendary level - which in many cases requires 168 smithing skill, since they don't fall under any of the smithing perks. At that point items that do fall under one of those will get a bigger improvement.

Using Chillrend as an example, since it was mentioned a few posts back, the level 19+ versions of the sword will do more damage than a legendary tempered dragonbone longsword.

Only if you don't enchant the longsword.

But Smithing is no more broken than any other skill in the game.

Where did I say it is?

[Duck999]

That is true. The problem may be that some people find smithing the easiest to make overpowered. Other skills become extremely good, but the game basically expects you (it seems) to get weapon/armor/magic skills up to one hundred if that is your fighting style. Because smithing is not required, people see it as a n overpowered skill that just breaks the game. Anything basically required to survive isn't considered the same way because it is necessary to survival.

Or people just don't realize how good some skills are.

Not that smithing fits any of my characters anyway.

Edit: Other people implied that it is broken. Also, I know people who have war hammers (or something) that deal hundreds (I think) of damage.

[NineThePuma]

No, there is a very clear cap to the benefits of tempering.

There's no hard coded cap. There is a cap on what you can do without fortify.

[veti]

I think smithing, of all the skills, is the one that has changed most since earlier games.

In Oblivion and earlier, you couldn't improve your weapons and armour. On the contrary: they wore down with use, and you had to use smithing to repair them to "good as new". There was no such thing as "better than new".

I was surprised when I saw what Skyrim did with smithing, and I didn't much like it for a long time. But I've come to accept that it is, in fact, in keeping with the culture. Ancient Nordic culture venerated blacksmiths as next-door to wizards, and legendary heroes were expected to know their way around a forge, to make and maintain their own weapons.

However, I do think smithing is broken. Sure, you can abuse other skills - but with smithing, you don't have to abuse it to break the game, you can get there by using it exactly as designed. There's a difference between "skills that are overpowered if you go out of your way to use them in a certain way", and "skills that are overpowered unless you carefully choose not to use or train them at all".

[DigoDragon]

My main problem with Hjerim is the number and kinds of hoops you have to jump through to even be able to get it in the first place. It is one of the nicest homes in Skyrim and has arguably one of the best layouts. It doesn't have some stuff, sure, but it's also not cramped and you get a nice view of all your trophies if you decorate the plaques and mannikins. But you can't get it until pretty late in the day, relatively speaking.

Yeah, very much all these fine points I agree with. And really, if I can't get a home early on, I just can't get myself invested to make it *feel* like a home. Because at the end of the day, I'm level 50+ and retiring. XD

Is it just me, or do other people find that putting things into the display cases is both difficult and counterproductive? I mean, after very carefully placing whatever item(s) inside, closing the case assures that I can never see what I put in there because of the high wooden walls and the reflectivity of the glass.

I love just stacking stuff on tables. Come back some time later and suddenly everything explodes and flies in different directions due to crazy physics.

I remember one time walking into the Blue Palace and that big silver serving tray in the lobby struck me in the head right off the bat. If I make a new character, maybe I'll just make a slob and drop all my stuff on the floors of Breezehome. Now watch, I trip on an apple and break my neck.

In Oblivion and earlier, you couldn't improve your weapons and armour. On the contrary: they wore down with use, and you had to use smithing to repair them to "good as new". There was no such thing as "better than new".

Never played Oblivion, but I'm experiencing it with Fallout 3. It's... a little annoying, but not terrible I guess. Stuff doesn't degrade after one fight at least.

[Winter_Wolf]

I love just stacking stuff on tables. Come back some time later and suddenly everything explodes and flies in different directions due to crazy physics.

I remember one time walking into the Blue Palace and that big silver serving tray in the lobby struck me in the head right off the bat. If I make a new character, maybe I'll just make a slob and drop all my stuff on the floors of Breezehome. Now watch, I trip on an apple and break my neck.

"Poltergeists."

I do love the homesteads of Hearthfire, but every time using the anvil in the main hall, a bucket gets stuck on dragonborn's foot. I guess standing with one foot in a bucket is protection against the invisible fire that makes smithing on the anvil possible, or something. And using the upstairs workbench is a serious health hazard if you build that one shelf next to it at any point other than dead last. Wooden platter respawns, too, so it can keep happening over and over. Or the time I tried to place something on the main hall dining table and made more of a mess than I started with and launched an eider cheese at my housecarl's head, and *still* the freaking bowl was upside down.

[Triaxx]

The weapon health values in Fallout 3 are skewed strangely due to a difference from Oblivion. In Oblivion weapons you only lose durability when you make contact. In Fallout, you lose durability everytime you pull the trigger. I suspect the complaint are why it was dropped for Skyrim.

[AdmiralCheez]

The weapon health values in Fallout 3 are skewed strangely due to a difference from Oblivion. In Oblivion weapons you only lose durability when you make contact. In Fallout, you lose durability everytime you pull the trigger. I suspect the complaint are why it was dropped for Skyrim.

That actually makes sense, though. If you miss with a sword, then you're generally just waving it in the air, and it doesn't get worn. But with a gun, even if you miss, you still fired a bullet, causing the same wear and tear to the gun as if you hit.

I still think they could have kept it for Skyrim though. Maybe instead of having a health bar or something, the tempering goes down a rank after so many hits. Like you sharpen the blade to Exquisite or whatever, and you clear a couple dungeons, and now your blade is down to Fine status. So you go back to the grindwheel and sharpen it back up. Of course, once you get it to legendary, it lives up to its name and stays there. You could even have it weaken below standard and get brittle, increasing the chance it snaps into shards, which can then be reforged into a new blade.

[Divayth Fyr]

In Oblivion and earlier, you couldn't improve your weapons and armour. On the contrary: they wore down with use, and you had to use smithing to repair them to "good as new". There was no such thing as "better than new".

Technically speaking, Oblivion had such a thing - after a certain point you could "repair" items to have 125% of standard durability.

However, I do think smithing is broken. Sure, you can abuse other skills - but with smithing, you don't have to abuse it to break the game, you can get there by using it exactly as designed. There's a difference between "skills that are overpowered if you go out of your way to use them in a certain way", and "skills that are overpowered unless you carefully choose not to use or train them at all".

I would argue that the bonuses you can get without using potions/enchantment aren't broken.

That actually makes sense, though. If you miss with a sword, then you're generally just waving it in the air, and it doesn't get worn. But with a gun, even if you miss, you still fired a bullet, causing the same wear and tear to the gun as if you hit.

I can't remember if that wasn't the way bows were handled in earlier TES games as well.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Maybe instead of having a health bar or something, the tempering goes down a rank after so many hits. Like you sharpen the blade to Exquisite or whatever, and you clear a couple dungeons, and now your blade is down to Fine status. So you go back to the grindwheel and sharpen it back up. Of course, once you get it to legendary, it lives up to its name and stays there.

Second this. I'm of two minds on weapon wear--it's realistic, but it's a pain to get halfway through a dungeon and find I'm doing half damage. But that's a good compromise, and with the grind wheels in Skyrim I wouldn't have to carry around half my weight in hammers like in Morrowind and Oblivion. I'd also like to propose that some of the weapons you find as loot have different tempering levels. (So you've got a small chance that Bandit Chief will have Legendary grade weapons/armor--thus if you don't want to level Smithing you can still get indestructible gear.)

[NineThePuma]

There's a mod for that already.

[veti]

Second this. I'm of two minds on weapon wear--it's realistic, but it's a pain to get halfway through a dungeon and find I'm doing half damage.

That's where bound weapons come into their own. In Morrowind, I once got so fed up with precisely that situation that I crafted a ring to insta-cast Bound Sword (because magicka didn't regenerate in those days).

But generally, you carry two or three weapons anyway, don't you? It'd take a pretty epic dungeon to wear down all of them.

[AdmiralCheez]

There's a mod for that already.

There is? Do you happen to have a link, or a name for it? I'm certainly interested in taking a look.

[NineThePuma]

Here. It doesn't have the "after a certain point your loot stops degrading" bit, but it's pretty much exactly what was described.

[AdmiralCheez]

Yeah, that's pretty much it. It even has blacksmith services, and it looks like their skill goes up over time. Interesting. Thanks, I'll have to try this one out on my next character.

[Feytalist]

But generally, you carry two or three weapons anyway, don't you? It'd take a pretty epic dungeon to wear down all of them.

Many dungeons have workbenches and grindstones somewhere inside anyway.

[DigoDragon]

"Poltergeists."

Pretty much that, yeah. Though the cheese-wheel flying is hilarious. :D

That actually makes sense, though. If you miss with a sword, then you're generally just waving it in the air, and it doesn't get worn. But with a gun, even if you miss, you still fired a bullet, causing the same wear and tear to the gun as if you hit.

And really, if you're not into weapon degradation, I'm sure it can be turned off with a mod (if not built into the system).

[AdmiralCheez]

And really, if you're not into weapon degradation, I'm sure it can be turned off with a mod (if not built into the system).

Make it like New Vegas and have a "hardcore, realistic" difficulty option with weapon degradation, freezing to death, hunger and thirst, sleeping necessity, basically every mod I have currently installed, except built it in to the game.

[The_Jackal]

I'm confused how people think that kind of thing is 'gameplay'. It's undramatic and tedious, and never winds up being a regularly scheduled chore you need to take care of, rather than ever actually being fun.

[Mobius Twist]

I'm usually on the fence about survivalist mods, but I can definitely see the appeal.

Specifically, moments that put you into a situation where, unprepared and caught amidst the elements you have to use your wits and sparse resources to survive. If you want to make a memorable game experience, make things challenging without being outright unfair. Make things go according to a bad plan and then scramble to make things right.

This usually happens earlier in a gaming experience when you're not quite optimized and things are still new. Once you figure out the exact combination of potions and spells to keep yourself safe and it becomes of a game of "Did I buff myself 5 times in the right sequence today?" then, yeah, the drudgery might set in.

[DigoDragon]

Make it like New Vegas and have a "hardcore, realistic" difficulty option with weapon degradation, freezing to death, hunger and thirst, sleeping necessity, basically every mod I have currently installed, except built it in to the game.

There you go, that could work.

I'm confused how people think that kind of thing is 'gameplay'. It's undramatic and tedious, and never winds up being a regularly scheduled chore you need to take care of, rather than ever actually being fun.

I really don't like hunger/sleep survival mods, but I'm okay with weapon degradation on the level with, say, Fallout 3. It takes a little while for my guns to break down and I can usually find enough spare guns off looting corpses to patch mine back up to serviceable condition. However, I also can't just throw bullets constantly or I'll degrade my weapon a lot faster (and lose loot when I have to scrap a spare for parts). Thus, I end up playing a bit smarter and plan some before attacking opponents. :)

[AdmiralCheez]

I like survival mods because they make the game more challenging, and not in an "everything is more powerful and you're weaker" kind of way, which I always felt was the lazy way of doing difficulty. I like having more antagonists than just monsters. Sure, a dragon can be pretty nasty, but it's even nastier when you're fighting it and the environment at the same time. Try fighting a dragon out on the glacial ice, where one wrong step can plunge you into the frigid ocean where death is seconds away, and where the howling blizzard winds will kill you from exposure if you don't get rid of the dragon soon and seek shelter. That's a lot more interesting to me than giving the dragon more armor and higher damage, and falling into the ocean is just an inconvenience.

Then there was one time my thief character was up in Dawnstar I think, coming back to sell things. It was night, and the blizzard was picking up. I didn't have a tent or materials to build a fire at the time, so getting inside a building was the only option. I checked my exposure level and I was down around 10 or so (at 0, you freeze to death), so I had to hurry. The tavern was all the way across town, so I'd never make it in time. I picked the closest house, and tried to lockpick the door while my skill was severely reduced (from the aforementioned almost freezing to death). I finally got it open and sneaked in, warming myself by the fire while the owner slept in bed, trying carefully not to wake them. It was a rather intense moment.

Sure, some survival mods can be a little tedious. I can't tell you how many times I've been annoyed that my character gets tired halfway through a dungeon, and now I'm over-encumbered. But I think it's a good trade-off, so I stick with it. It's not for everyone, obviously, but it can be pretty fun.

[Mobius Twist]

I'm reminded of the Crysis difficulty levels. Sure, the enemies are more accurate (as you might expect from trained commandos and such). The bigger differences are lack of enemy indicators on the radar, enemies speaking Korean when calling out to each other, and no grenade indicator. Also, as befits a more "realistic" difficulty, you have no magical cross-hair on your GUI and you can't drive and shoot a mounted gun at the same time on your own.

Even without buffing enemy health the game suddenly encourages a hide-and-seek fighting style compared to the traditional run-and-gun.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

So something that's been bothering me: Uriel VII's legitimate, non-Martin heirs were all in their fifties when they were assassinated. Given the usual tendency of royals toward heir-and-a-spare and the in-universe necessity at the time of having a Dragonborn on the throne to prevent Daedric invasion...why wasn't Uriel at least a grandfather by the time of his death?

[Landis963]

So something that's been bothering me: Uriel VII's legitimate, non-Martin heirs were all in their fifties when they were assassinated. Give the usual tendency of royals toward heir-and-a-spare and the in-universe necessity at the time of having a Dragonborn on the throne to prevent Daedric invasion...why wasn't Uriel at least a grandfather by the time of his death?

Who says he wasn't? It's not as though anyone associated with the Mythic Dawn cult would be known for their restraint. At the very least, they wouldn't have the compunction against killing children that the Champion of Cyrodiil had.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Who says he wasn't? It's not as though anyone associated with the Mythic Dawn cult would be known for their restraint. At the very least, they wouldn't have the compunction against killing children that the Champion of Cyrodiil had.

But we should have heard about them in that case. All three known sons were mentioned, there should have at least been a blurb of "oh, the royal grandchildren were also horribly killed!" But (at least as far as I've found) there isn't even a mention that there ever were any.