The Elder Scrolls: It's the IX Divines, you milk-drinkers

[Eldan]

I know there's a mod for ferrymen to take you along the major rivers, Im' sure there's one for more carts, too.

[DigoDragon]

I'm just saying: you're the aggressor. But then, it's a video game. You're always gonna be the aggressor.

What if I picked a fight with a giant, and his mammoths chase me so I run away... and happen to accidentally run right through a bandit camp with the mammoths and giant following me. Am I still the aggressor? :3

And then there are the handful of camps that are literally on the road and you can't help but aggro everyone by trying to use it.

The Valtheim Towers come to mind. If you travel the road by it you always get stopped by the bandits who demand a toll.

Using the Storm Call shout tends to fix that issue, as the archers on the bridge don't have anywhere to really hide from the lightning. XD

There's a mod that allows you to take full rides (using the animations from the default opening scene) and some things will attack you but the dude just casually mentions it and you can choose to get out or he just runs over whatever's in the way and they get knocked over. It's really comical, actually.

I'm going to have to find that cause it sounds like fun. :D

[Temotei]

The Valtheim Towers come to mind. If you travel the road by it you always get stopped by the bandits who demand a toll.

Run really fast by the toll bandit! They can't catch you walking. Or just swim, I guess, but that's not on the road, and if you fall off the waterfall's edge there's a good chance you'll die.

I'm going to have to find that cause it sounds like fun. :D

It definitely was. My game couldn't handle it very well because it was already pretty heavy on mods and my computer is...not that great, but I'd definitely recommend it on a stabler machine.

[Dhavaer]

Does anyone else use SPERG, and know who the merchants who get extra spellbooks from the Expert spell school perks are?

[NEO|Phyte]

Does anyone else use SPERG, and know who the merchants who get extra spellbooks from the Expert spell school perks are?

I'm reasonably sure that's just pointing out that leveling up the skill makes the more powerful spells start to appear at the appropriate merchants, but I don't actually know for sure. Maybe it adds some books to the non-college spell sellers or something.

[NineThePuma]

SPERG's expert level perks are /dumb/ because they actually don't do anything. The merchants are the college of winterhold teachers of the appropriate school.

Basically, the spell books are added when you hit that level anyway, the perks are just a notice that the spell books are added without actually, you know, doing anything.

[DigoDragon]

Run really fast by the toll bandit! They can't catch you walking. Or just swim, I guess, but that's not on the road, and if you fall off the waterfall's edge there's a good chance you'll die.

Hmm, off the trail and up the hill there's a giant camp. I'm going to lure one down to the toll and see what happens.

[Kesnit]

I am running a D&D 3.5 game set in Skyrim during the events of the video game. The party did something rather unexpected, and I am unsure what the consequences should be...

I had the party arrive in Solitude for the execution of Roggvir (the Nord who opened the gate and allowed Ulfric to escape after killing the High King). Whereas in the game, you cannot stop his execution, the party did - and with style. The Warlock used Baleful Utterance on the headsman's axe, shattering it. Then she called out that Talos had spared the man. (She was invisible at the time, so no one could see who spoke.) The Druid, who had a Phantom Stag with him, made the stag glow and sent it to the platform to carry Roggvir and his family out of the city. This, of course, made the people of Solitude think Kyne (Kynareth) had intervened as well. Now the city is buzzing with accounts of the "miracles."

On to my question... Given that Solitude is turning back to worship of the Nine (rather than the Eight), what should the reactions of the Empire and the Thalmor be?

[NineThePuma]

I'm firmly of the opinion that the empire doesn't actually care if you worship talos or not. They're paying lip service to the thalmor's conditions but don't actually care. The general consensus of the civilian population is unlikely to be "Man, remember that ulfric guy? I bet he's actually a cool dude instead of a murderer"

Like, the civil war isn't about the worship of talos. The empire doesn't actually give a **** if you do or don't, it's just saying that it's banned to get the thalmor to stop trying to poke it in the eye. They're only involved in this whole civil war nonsense because ulfric started lobbying for secession and then murdered the high king.

[DigoDragon]

On to my question... Given that Solitude is turning back to worship of the Nine (rather than the Eight), what should the reactions of the Empire and the Thalmor be?

I agree with NineThePuma, that the empire isn't going to get involved with that (Unless it starts happening all over the place, which it probably won't so they'll just shrug at the one time incident and worry about bigger issues back home).

The Thalmor will probably send someone to check on that. Can't have Nords believing they just witnessed a Talos miracle.

[Divayth Fyr]

Yeah, we can even hear that while Talos worship was made slightly less public after the Concordate, nobody really did anything about it until Ulfric started brewing up trouble - at which point the Thalmor came to Skyrim and started hunting down Talos worshippers. But even then it was their fight, in which the Empire didn't really help in an active way. I can even imagine the Thalmor not wanting it to meddle, since there would be a risk that the Empire-appointed people would secretly support the men they were sent to hunt.

[Anxe]

I think the Thalmor would immediately assume that a caster had meddled in the execution, not a god, as Talos is not a god to them. That puts further doubt on Kyne's involvement to them as well. They'd start investigating to see who really did it right away. And they'd tell people it wasn't the gods, but some traitor setting Roggvir free. The Queen would probably go along with this because she doesn't much care for Roggvir and she'd want him recaptured.

[NEO|Phyte]

I'm admittedly not particularly versed in the intricacies, but I'm fairly certain that they recognize that Talos is a God (or at least mantling Lorkhan or whatever the term is). What he isn't is one of the Divines, which IIRC are Aedra.

[Anxe]

Here's one of the Thalmor quotes that clears it up, "You can worship whatever gods you like. But Talos is a man, and only a heretic would think otherwise... And so, you will die a heretic's death." (attacks)

Found it on the UESP.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Empire-side I am of the opinion that the common person is going to be swayed a little more towards Talos and you might have a few more people run off to join the Stormcloaks, but the upper echelons are going to maintain the official line that they've kept so far. This is, after all, the capitol, which has strong ties to the Empire and the Thalmor embassy within spitting distance. Either loyalty or fear will keep most people from outright rebelling.

As far as individuals go, Elisif the Fair was feeling bad and guilty over not giving offerings to Talos at her husband's death, so on a personal level she might be swayed by the 'miracle.' IMO she's not politically savvy enough to even guess at the ruse, though some of her advisors might. HOWEVER Anxe has a good point in that this 'miracle' freed the guy who helped her husband's murderer escape, and she's not going to realize Elenwen pushing for an investigation and claiming it's totally not Divine intervention is anything but honest. So, you could have her swing either way. Sybil Stentor should probably be called in at some point to take a look regardless, being court mage.

The Thalmor are going to react swiftly and ruthlessly to this. I'm sketchy about magic in 3.5, but I believe (barring extreme care by the party) the Thalmor should be able to find evidence it was spellcasting if not the party specifically—they're all casters to some extent, their headquarters are nearby and they are NOT stupid. At the very least Justiciar presence in the city should probably go up—to assist with security since the town guards let a dangerous criminal escape, of course. >_> Maybe Elenwen could throw another party, to remind the human nobles who's really running things. And if you want to get nasty, have a Thalmor agent who was 'convinced' by the 'miracle' so he/she can get in cosy with some of the new converts and spy on/betray them later.

And if the party hasn't been very quiet about what they can do—you said the Druid has a phantom stag, is this well known? Are spell components required for those spells they cast, and do they leave traces, or does the caster need to use a focus? Are these particularly unusual spells or something half the population has access to? (I'm guessing they're unusual, or no one would fall for the 'miracle'.) If there's a focus or something that the Thalmor could find by having a spy sneak into their room at the inn and hunt through the party's bags, and it isn't something like cheese or ink that anyone could have for perfectly innocent reasons, well...

...if they discover who arranged that 'miracle' the Thalmor would probably do their best to have the party eliminated just for stirring up trouble, though how they go about it (public arrest and execution vs. having a kill squad attack them in the wilderness) would probably depend on how the party conducts itself, and behaves in town. IMO the Thalmor wouldn't have them dragged away in chains (yet) if they're local heroes—they don't have the numbers to deal with Solitude actively rioting, and if they weaken the Empire-supporting side too much, the Stormcloaks will win and the war will end too soon.

I'm admittedly not particularly versed in the intricacies, but I'm fairly certain that they recognize that Talos is a God (or at least mantling Lorkhan or whatever the term is). What he isn't is one of the Divines, which IIRC are Aedra.

They probably know that he is, but they won't admit that he is, as that would interfere with their goal to erase him from existence.

[veti]

I think that Elenwen would take drastic steps to prevent Elisif from openly endorsing Talos worship, and without that step, the resultant unrest would be contained. If Elisif herself repudiated the White-Gold Concordat, that would change Skyrim completely and very likely end the civil war. Elenwen will spare no effort to prevent that.

I don't think the Thalmor are a threat to Solitude directly, unless the Legion actually sides with them. After all, there's only a handful of guards at the embassy, plus the few you see out on patrol and elsewhere - I'd be surprised if there's more than about 20-30 Thalmor in Skyrim in total, at any one time. But Elenwen personally has a Charisma that stomps Elisif and everyone else, bar possibly Ulfric himself, into dust. She would have no difficulty taking charge of the situation and framing the narrative as being about some criminals who helped the fugitive escape.

Incidentally, the fact that these undoubtedly-human traitors actually impersonated Talos illustrates nicely how the myth of Talos-as-divine was built up in the first place. Some humans, in their misguided wish to see themselves as on a par with mer, constructed this idea of Talos as god, and deceived the weak-minded with trickery. The fact that the pattern is repeating now is a fascinating insight into how it happened first time round. But we know better, now.

That'll be Elenwen's story, and within two days everyone who matters will, publicly at least, buy it.

[Divayth Fyr]

I'd be surprised if there's more than about 20-30 Thalmor in Skyrim in total, at any one time

I'd argue there are more - they have the Embassy, Headquarters in Solitude and Northwatch Keep (the last one not being common knowledge) to staff, plus people like Ancano and Ondolemar (and their underlings) set to specific places plus an unknown number of agents working directly in the field.

They probably know that he is, but they won't admit that he is, as that would interfere with their goal to erase him from existence.

I can imagine that if they truly didn' consider Talos a god, they could encourage the worship - so the actual gods capable of interventions are less likely to do anything for humans ;)

[Anxe]

Sybil Stentor should probably be called in at some point to take a look regardless, being court mage.

Only at night though!

[Inarius]

I can imagine that if they truly didn' consider Talos a god, they could encourage the worship - so the actual gods capable of interventions are less likely to do anything for humans ;)

If I remember right, its not that they disagree that he is a god its that they are seeking to remove his divinity by stopping people from worshipping him. They want Talos out of the picture because for some reason he is one of the forces holding Mundus together which they view as a cage that is preventing them from attaining the immortality they lost when the world was created.

[Calemyr]

If I remember right, its not that they disagree that he is a god its that they are seeking to remove his divinity by stopping people from worshipping him. They want Talos out of the picture because for some reason he is one of the forces holding Mundus together which they view as a cage that is preventing them from attaining the immortality they lost when the world was created.

The way I understand it, the logic is that the Aedra all sacrificed a lot to bring the world into being. Lorkhan most of all, because in many senses he had to die to pull the project off. As a result, the Aedra are bonded to Nirn the same way the Daedra are bound to Oblivion, it's just that, having not sacrificed anything to make the jump, the Daedra are still at full strength while the surviving Aedra are basically permanently crippled. The more crazy crap metahumanity does, however, the more effort it takes the Aedra to hold the world together. And at some point they were really really close to breaking.

Talos/Tiber Septim/Talos was a badass Dragonborn that had already pulled the Empire back together, established a new dynasty, reformatted the Cyrodil Jungle into a lush grassland, and generally was every bit the world-changing adventurer any TES hero is. Not unlike the Champion (Oblivion) and Sheogorath, Talos gets pulled into the crisis of the faltering strength of the Aedra. Talos jumps in and becomes an Aedra himself. Since he was a human, the jump does not cripple him and, for the first time since the Nirn project began, the Aedra gain a member that's still at full power. With Talos in the mix, the crisis is averted and the Aedra continue to hold the world together.

But, as the great Ron Perlman says: War, war never changes. Or rather mortals do not. They continue doing crazy crap that rips at the foundation of their existence. Every game puts immense pressure on the Aedra as they struggle to incorporate the myriad outcomes of these events into a single continuity. So we continue to get Dragon Breaks and other shenanigans in order to patch the universe back up after every ridiculous stunt. Even with the infusion of new blood, the Aedra are back on the ropes at the moment. Nirn is a dam on the verge of breaking, and Talos is the only reason the Aedra still have the strength to keep everything from bursting at the seems.

Now enter the Thalmor, religious zealots who believe that elves are not actually mortal souls after all, but rather immortal demigods that got trapped in this reality supported by the metaphysical equivalent of duct tape and bailing wire, stripped of their former glory, while men (who are just fragments of Lorkhan, anyway) revel in a world created for them. They want to break the caccoon of this mortal world and emerge as the divine butterflies they know themselves to be. That means breaking Nirn, and that means sabotaging the last thing effectively holding it together: Talos. If Talos can be weakened enough, the whole thing pops like a balloon and they are free at last. Sure, humanity gets extinguished in the process, but let's be honest: as fragments of the essence of the hated Aedra Lorkhan, the Thalmor are not going to lose any sleep about humanity biting the big one.

The Thalmor have taken a ridiculously long time to put their plan into motion, but then they're elves. Longevity is just their lot in life, so there's no need to do something so crass as hurry. They took credit for solving the Oblivion Crisis to build a support base back home and then retook the Valenwood and Elseweyr to justify their ambitious expansion as reclaiming their former glory as the Dominion. Once they had enough military might, they eliminated the Blades and declared war on the Empire, blindsiding it and basically kicking its lethargic ass. The emperor took a long time to recover, but proved a savvy enough leader to turn a devastating blitz into a stalemate, forcing a truce in the truest sense of the word: an all too brief moment of not-quite-peace as both sides reload their weapons. The Thalmor, however, continue playing the long game - they don't need to force a few concessions in the peace process. Odd little things, things humanity would consider strange but not all that objectionable. After all, who cares whether there are eight Divines or nine, especially since Talos is explicitly a tacked on token member to begin with. Nobody but the Nords put all that much stock in him to begin with, did they? Oh and, of course, the Thalmor have to be involved in enforcing the ban on Talos worship, giving them complete access to all Imperial operations at any level they like - a need brought to the fore by Stormcloak's little coup and the resulting civil war. By playing the long game the Thalmor have set everything they need into place and humanity doesn't even recognize it. It just looks like a face-saving measure, lip service to an enemy that brought them to their knees but never managed to conquer them. And with every prayer missed thanks to a scowling Altmer, Talos's grasp on reality slips just that little bit more. We're not there yet, it'll still take a good bit more time...

But that's okay. They're elves. Time is one thing they have in abundance.

[veti]

I'd argue there are more - they have the Embassy, Headquarters in Solitude and Northwatch Keep (the last one not being common knowledge) to staff, plus people like Ancano and Ondolemar (and their underlings) set to specific places plus an unknown number of agents working directly in the field.

Oops, you're right - I was forgetting Northwatch Keep. So that's, what, another 15 or so.

But I think it's moot anyway, because for the Thalmor to impose their will on Solitude by military force would cast them as Elisif's enemies, and therefore enemies of the whole of Skyrim, and effectively bring an end to the civil war. Which would defeat the whole point of them being there in the first place.

No, Elenwen's CHA is where it's at. She'll browbeat and humiliate anyone who voices a contrary opinion, and convince or terrify anyone not sufficiently strong-minded to withstand her - which category includes literally everyone in Solitude, with the possible exception of General Tullius but he'd be on her side anyway.

[Forbiddenwar]

Huh? Is there a cheat sheet or crib notes for all this lore? Cause I haven't gotten any of this from the game.

On another note, sorry for the lame and newb question, but why does enchanting my weapon with lightning, fire, frost or magical damage cause it to do less total damage? Why go to the effort?

[Dhavaer]

Huh? Is there a cheat sheet or crib notes for all this lore? Cause I haven't gotten any of this from the game.

On another note, sorry for the lame and newb question, but why does enchanting my weapon with lightning, fire, frost or magical damage cause it to do less total damage? Why go to the effort?

Unless you have an ability that gives you a damage bonus to unenchanted weapons - and I'm pretty sure there's no such thing in the base game - it shouldn't. Could you give more detail?

[Inarius]

Unless you have an ability that gives you a damage bonus to unenchanted weapons - and I'm pretty sure there's no such thing in the base game - it shouldn't. Could you give more detail?

One of the shouts gives you a bonus only to unenchanted weapons, but its pretty much the exception.

[Forbiddenwar]

Unless you have an ability that gives you a damage bonus to unenchanted weapons - and I'm pretty sure there's no such thing in the base game - it shouldn't. Could you give more detail?

I'm not sure there is much more than what I said. I go to enchant a weapon and I see that the damage on the weapon drops no matter what enchantment I use. My character doesn't have much in enchanting, but I started think that every little bit helps, since I have deadly combat and deadly dragons on. I noticed it especially on my current legendary skyforged steel greatsword I found. If I were to enchant it the damage would drop 50 points.

[Blackdrop]

I'm not sure there is much more than what I said. I go to enchant a weapon and I see that the damage on the weapon drops no matter what enchantment I use. My character doesn't have much in enchanting, but I started think that every little bit helps, since I have deadly combat and deadly dragons on. I noticed it especially on my current legendary skyforged steel greatsword I found. If I were to enchant it the damage would drop 50 points.

That would be why probably. I'm 95% sure weapons lose their...sharpening? Honing? Whatever when they're enchanted. You'd need to re-improve it once it's enchanted and for that you'd need the Arcane Blacksmithing perk.

[Feytalist]

Huh? Is there a cheat sheet or crib notes for all this lore? Cause I haven't gotten any of this from the game.

A leetl bit regarding the Thalmor's (possible) true motives is from unofficial outside sources. The rest seem to just be inspired guesswork.

On another note, sorry for the lame and newb question, but why does enchanting my weapon with lightning, fire, frost or magical damage cause it to do less total damage? Why go to the effort?

I have not seen or heard of anything like this before - not in the pure unmodded game anyway. Weapons should certainly not lose their tempering when being enchanted. Are you running any mods? (Oh, except Deadly Combat and Deadly Dragons. Do any of those affect weapon creation and enchanting? I have no idea. I don't do mods.)

Because otherwise that sounds like a horrible bug.

[Hubert]

I'm not sure there is much more than what I said. I go to enchant a weapon and I see that the damage on the weapon drops no matter what enchantment I use. My character doesn't have much in enchanting, but I started think that every little bit helps, since I have deadly combat and deadly dragons on. I noticed it especially on my current legendary skyforged steel greatsword I found. If I were to enchant it the damage would drop 50 points.

According to the UESP:

If you enchant improved armor, the UI may show it reverted to its base specs and it will appear to lose any improved rating you have applied through smithing. However, after enchanting the item, the item will retain its improved rating.

However, there is no indication that the same thing happens for improved weapons.

[snowblizz]

A technical question. A friend of mine started playing around the same time I did, but he changed the keybindings. But it seems the game doesn't really care about all of that.
For one it keeps listing the old keybinds on certain menus. He changed the "activate" from "E" to "D" (we're on PC here obviously) and now he can't e.g. pick up books in the world since it only accepts "E", or something like that.

He was also trying to explain something with left and right attacks and the two handed weapons combined with spells. I haven't quite been able to follow the line of thought even when I sat beside him and he showed me in game. Near as I can tell it had to do with LM and RM attacking/blocking with a two hander changing up if you switched around spellcasting hands. I think his issue was that putting the right hand casting to RM (so the graphics show the casting with right hand for RM) meant the primary attack also changed for the two handed weapon. If that makes any sense?

Anyone know more about these issues?

I tried pitching the idea that maybe there was a mod or something to change the behaviour but he wasn't biting. However, some of the keybinding issues I'm wondering if it is a bug or what?

[NineThePuma]

He was also trying to explain something with left and right attacks and the two handed weapons combined with spells. I haven't quite been able to follow the line of thought even when I sat beside him and he showed me in game. Near as I can tell it had to do with LM and RM attacking/blocking with a two hander changing up if you switched around spellcasting hands. I think his issue was that putting the right hand casting to RM (so the graphics show the casting with right hand for RM) meant the primary attack also changed for the two handed weapon. If that makes any sense?

That's normal. your "left hand" button is for blocking when you don't have another weapon equipped. By switching the buttons around when you're dual wielding it has an effect when you're single wielding. Basically, if he wants the game to make sense for dual wielding it shafts his single wielding.