Do you know where Alabama is?

[Teddy]

Compare it to all those countries that are sort of a roundish blob or all the squares that make up American states, it's fairly recognizable. It's not Italy or Denmark, no, but it's still one of the more recognizable shapes as far as countries go by virtue of being neither a square nor a roundish blob.

It also borders Denmark, which makes it even easier to find.

[Traab]

Showing some interest in your opponent outside of the match itself is a pretty common courtesy. It's like how you're expected to at least make some small talk about how the trip was and whether people are enjoying their stay at business meetings

Im not sure when, "So, I hear you guys are between croatia and austria, whats THAT like?" would come up in small talk. I mean, I have talked to a number of people from other countries, and none of them have ever brought up the fact that we are bordered by canada and mexico in a casual chat. I suppose if they wanted to trigger some sort of political debate about immigration they might mention mexico, but its just not the sort of thing I hear talked about a lot in casual chit chat. Admittedly, I dont know much about the game setup, so maybe team USA and team Slovenia are going to hang out at the local bars chatting before and after the game, but if not, I dunno, would the slovenian team even be likely to speak much english? Looking it up on wikipedia, its not listed as their main language but I dunno how that works out in general. If english ASL is standard, or team usa needs to pickup some slovene if they want to trash talk during the game. But either way, I just dont see a lot of chit chat going on really, let alone such an odd topic as the geographic location of their country.

[RPGuru1331]

No, about not knowing about the geography of Slovenia, which is not the same as "not having a clue about Slovenia".

The basic location of Slovenia is not the geography of Slovenia. The geography of Slovenia, in the particular, would be where their administrative divisions are, the major features of that geography (Mountain ranges, rivers, forests...), the location of all major and minor metropolitan areas... I said only that they should know where to find it.

These are the things that matter to him professionally, and if he stopped studying the team just to satisfy personal curiosity about location, capital, language or other things, he's being non-professional.

Lulnope. That's only non-professional if it's done on time he's paid for. And again, 'basic location' is not even 20 seconds on wikipedia unless you're on dial up.

His response was clear - I don't know the location they're fro;, you don't know the location I'm from; why does it matter? We aren't here for a geography bee.

Again with the defensiveness. I am reasonably sure everyone there knew where to locate the USA. Finding Alabama is equivalent to finding an administrative disrict.

Anybody reading an insult into it, rather than a rhetorical parry, is inventing the insult himself.

Uh, you're kind of contradicting yourself, unless you think it's common to 'parry' small talk.

[Terraoblivion]

Traab...That's because they already know what the US is. They don't need to find the most basic standard of knowledge of the country to show an interest in it, the way an American would be expected to have to for Slovenia.

And, TheThan, pretty much any area that has a functioning infrastructure and some form of local government could hypothetically set up an independent state if they wanted to and could convince the country they're part of to let them go. Basic institutions of statehood are pretty easy to make from a local government. There might be some expertise lacking in some areas, most notably foreign politics, military organization and intelligence agencies, but that applies as much to Alabama as it does to Yorkshire. That doesn't make Alabama or Yorkshire independent countries or capable of just leaving the US or the UK whenever they feel like it, it doesn't even give them a local nationalism to encourage such a move.

Also, if all states were equal in influence, it sure is weird how many headlines in both US media and international ones the politics of California, Texas and Pennsylvania make compared to Wyoming.

[Aedilred]

No, while the name and history of Germany is better known than Krasnoyarsk Krai because of it's influence, it is not geographically noteworthy compared to other European countries.

The geographical position of a country and its history and culture, climate, even language, are not completely discrete topics easily separable from each other. The history of Germany as an international entity is largely defined by its current and historic borders, and its geographical location. If you want (or claim) to know and understand German history and culture, knowing its location relative to France, Poland and Austria (in particular) is as important as knowing that, say, Great Britain is an island. The same goes for pretty much everywhere. Knowing where a country is in the world is just about the most basic thing it's possible to know about it. While it's not always directly relevant, it's usually not completely irrelevant either, so it's a useful minimum qualifier to judge whether someone knows anything about it at all.

[Reverent-One]

The geographical position of a country and its history and culture, climate, even language, are not completely discrete topics easily separable from each other. The history of Germany as an international entity is largely defined by its current and historic borders, and its geographical location. If you want (or claim) to know and understand German history and culture, knowing its location relative to France, Poland and Austria (in particular) is as important as knowing that, say, Great Britain is an island. The same goes for pretty much everywhere. Knowing where a country is in the world is just about the most basic thing it's possible to know about it. While it's not always directly relevant, it's usually not completely irrelevant either, so it's a useful minimum qualifier to judge whether someone knows anything about it at all.

Completely discrete? No, you're right. Unrelated enough that you can gauge them separately? Yes.

[Terraoblivion]

No. You can't have a deep or substantial knowledge of Germany without knowing about, at the very least, the borders Aedilred mentioned and I would really add the Czech border as well. Similarly, to understand German history you rather do need to understand its past borders as well, most notably the ones it had between the unification of the German empire and the Treaty of Versailles.

[Reverent-One]

No. You can't have a deep or substantial knowledge of Germany without knowing about, at the very least, the borders Aedilred mentioned and I would really add the Czech border as well. Similarly, to understand German history you rather do need to understand its past borders as well, most notably the ones it had between the unification of the German empire and the Treaty of Versailles.

Knowing about it's borders still doesn't make it visually distinct on a map.

[Terraoblivion]

Knowing about it's borders still doesn't make it visually distinct on a map.

So basically you can't find any of five countries that together make up the majority of the weirdly shaped peninsula that is Western and Central Europe?

[Reverent-One]

So basically you can't find any of five countries that together make up the majority of the weirdly shaped peninsula that is Western and Central Europe?

I didn't say that, I wasn't even talking about myself personally, just saying that knowing "X bordered Y from this time to that time" and the like does not inherently make a country more visually distinctive.

[Traab]

Traab...That's because they already know what the US is. They don't need to find the most basic standard of knowledge of the country to show an interest in it, the way an American would be expected to have to for Slovenia.

Oh, so now americans have to pass a test proving they have knowledge of slovenia to engage in idle chitchat? Sorry, maybe its a european thing, but discussing my country and its history, geography, and other such stuff I learned in history class isnt something that passes for generic conversations here. So no, I still cant think of a reason why knowing the country is between croatia and austria is important when it comes to talking to the people located therein. "Yeah, the flight was pretty good, they had attractive stewardesses and decent food for a change." "So, where do you guys go around here to party?" None of that requires being able to point out the nation on a map. Unless the player was also the pilot, its not critical that he knows this.

[Terraoblivion]

Traab, you're American, right? And mostly have idle talk with other Americans from roughly the same part of the US as you live in, right? In which case, of course you don't talk much about your country, they have exactly the same knowledge of it that you do. People only talk about their countries like that when talking to foreigners. And, no, it's not just a European thing, I got it a lot in China and basic cultural knowledge is a part of all tourist guides to avoid you screwing up and saying something insulting. It's a standard, accepted part of talking to foreigners. And it makes sense, your country defines a lot about your cultural background, your political leanings and hot button issues to ignore and is something most people deeply identify with.

And in any case, it's about taking an interest in the country, not knowing about it. Showing a willingness to listen to what people have to say about their about their country and being open to answering their questions about your is what matters, not being able to rattle off random trivia. Though some trivia helps to know not to stick your chopsticks upright into a bowl of rice in East Asia and that people will be deeply angry if you confuse Macedonian for Serbian or vice versa.

The failure of Cousin wasn't not knowing about Slovenia, it was failing to even make a polite excuse for not knowing but instead being defensive about it.

[Jay R]

Showing some interest in your opponent outside of the match itself is a pretty common courtesy.

Specifically, it's a common courtesy that has nothing to do with this question or the answer.

It's nice when my fencing opponents know my wife's name, my fencing style, what tourneys I've won, what my style is, who I train with, etc. It might even be nice if they know I'm from Dallas, Texas. It has never mattered to me if they know where Dallas is, or Texas, or even the U.S.

[Terraoblivion]

His opponent wasn't just the other team, it was the nation of Slovenia as a whole.

Also, maybe your priorities and what you value isn't universal to every person on the planet. A lot of people care deeply that people care about their country and that's especially true of people from young, fledgling countries that recently achieved independence. They have a lot to prove in terms of establishing that they even exist and likely past trauma where they suffered some form of warfare as part of their independence and much of the rest of the world didn't seem to care.

[BannedInSchool]

It's nice when my fencing opponents know my wife's name, my fencing style, what tourneys I've won, what my style is, who I train with, etc. It might even be nice if they know I'm from Dallas, Texas. It has never mattered to me if they know where Dallas is, or Texas, or even the U.S.

As an American non-Texan, I'd wish the rest of the world didn't think we're all Texas cowboys.

[Razade]

His opponent wasn't just the other team, it was the nation of Slovenia as a whole.

Then the team's win is even more stunning, I don't think I could beat 2 million people at Basketball. Let alone get them all in the stadium.

[Reverent-One]

Actually, Aedilred and Terra, I'm going to apologize for the past...hour and a half's worth of posts, everything past my acknowledgement of the Slovenians being real people worthy of respect. Those are poorly written and argued. This argument is losing my interest, I'm trying to do too many things at once, and it's better that I step away than waste everyone's time. I should have realized this back then, but better late than never. Let's just leave it at I never said or otherwise meant anything negative about Slovenia itself or it's people, despite any dispute over the ease of identification of the chunk of land it's on in comparison to other chunks of land (which you are free to agree or disagree with as you will).

[Traab]

Traab, you're American, right? And mostly have idle talk with other Americans from roughly the same part of the US as you live in, right? In which case, of course you don't talk much about your country, they have exactly the same knowledge of it that you do. People only talk about their countries like that when talking to foreigners. And, no, it's not just a European thing, I got it a lot in China and basic cultural knowledge is a part of all tourist guides to avoid you screwing up and saying something insulting. It's a standard, accepted part of talking to foreigners. And it makes sense, your country defines a lot about your cultural background, your political leanings and hot button issues to ignore and is something most people deeply identify with.

And in any case, it's about taking an interest in the country, not knowing about it. Showing a willingness to listen to what people have to say about their about their country and being open to answering their questions about your is what matters, not being able to rattle off random trivia. Though some trivia helps to know not to stick your chopsticks upright into a bowl of rice in East Asia and that people will be deeply angry if you confuse Macedonian for Serbian or vice versa.

The failure of Cousin wasn't not knowing about Slovenia, it was failing to even make a polite excuse for not knowing but instead being defensive about it.

Actually, I was talking about the times I have spoken to people from jamaica, the dominican republic, brazil, and a few other other countries. I think I was spending time with this woman from jamaica for several weeks before we really got around to talking about where we were from and other such questions like, "Where was your house on the island before you moved? Or other such geographical type questions. The closest I have really come is being asked to show someone around, which oddly enough requires that they have a total lack of knowledge about the area we are currently in. And yet, I was not offended because they didnt know much about my country, just as they werent offended that i didnt know much about theirs. We just traded comments like, "What? You never heard of Dairy Queen?"

As for your second paragraph, thats fine, but thats not what the reporter was doing. This wasnt a Q&A about making sure the players knew how to not start a war by shaking hands with their right hand instead of their left, this was presumably supposed to be a press conference about the game itself. Knowing the location of slovenia is not important to this player. He doesnt need to know this to play a game there, he doesnt need to know this to talk to people there, he only needs to know this if he is planning to go on jeopardy later and thinks tiny european nations will be a category. He doesnt intend to leave the nation then try to find his way back once he enters brussels and realizes he is lost. Asking him if he knows where the country is, is only slightly less random under the circumstances than asking his opinion on the romani people.

[Gwynfrid]

Okay, lets write up all the different points being made in this thread on one place for easy reference.

As far as I can see, a lot of people are trying to argue a point without having established common premises, which just makes the debate devolve into chaos. I hope I can try to make things a bit clearer.

Also, I've tried to be mostly impartial in my write-up, but I guess some of my opinions shine through nevertheless. Try not to read too much judgement into it, I've tried to be assuming as much good intent of people as possible, but may stumble a bit upon the wordings.

Thank you for the very nice, and, I think, pretty accurate summary. I thought the discussion could only go in circles past a certain point, and I commend the effort to make it more orderly, however quitoxic that may turn out to be.

So,for what it's worth, a summary of my position along your proposed lines:

Spoiler: First, the motives of the reporter

Show

1. The reporter is (not necessarily) Slovenian and is actually interested in how well-known his country is
2. The reporter is a jerk who wants to trap the player in the stereotype of American's as ignorant - I think so. However, you pointed out to the possibility that he had benign intentions, and as I don't have intel on that, I don't want to dismiss it. However, if that's the case, then he badly thought out this question and stirred a hornest's nest of resentment.
3. The reporter is a jerk who wants to trap the player in the sterotype of Americans as ignorant and self-important

Spoiler: Second, the motives of the player

Show

1. The player thought (correctly or not) that the reporter was trying to get him and retorted with what to him looked like a fair simile - Sounds more likely.
2. The player was a jerk who just wanted to get the reporter

Spoiler: Third, the validity of different comparisons

Show

1. Slovenia contra USA
2. Europe contra USA
3. Slovenia contra Alabama - Not a fair comparison: Making it is implicitly negating Slovenia's identity as an independent nation. It would only be valid if someone was advocating for the full independence of Alabama at the same time.
4. Alabama contra any other subdivision - I'm appreciative of TheThan's points regarding the nature of states, but that doesn't make them equivalent to nations. They do have a constitution, an elected legislature, specific laws and important rights protected by the US Constitution. As such, they are of a higher status as merely administrative subdivisions of non-federal countries (such as the regions and départements of France). In that, they're more or less on par with states, provinces, cantons and Länder of federal countries such as Australia, Canada, Switzerland and Germany. But they aren't equivalent to full countries.
5. Alabama contra any landmass of given size

Spoiler: Fourth, what a sports practitioner on the national team's knowledge of a country's location actually is worth

Show

1. Nothing
2. A nice gesture - I agree it would be nice of the player to have learned this before the game, but nothing required. I believe Terraoblivion is going too far in her descirption of an athlete's obligation. I think he's got an expectation he won't make a complete fool of himself or his country, but that's about it.
3. An expected courtesy
4. An obligation - No one is suggesting this.

Spoiler: Fifth and last, the value of the player's retort

Show

1. A witty reply
2. A fall straight into the stereotype of self-importance - Unfortunately, and probably not while realizing it, but yes. "I don't know. I have been focusing on preparing for the game, because our opponents are going to be a much harder challenge than looking up their country on Google Maps" would have been a valid response.
3. Witty despite being stereotypical
4. A step down to the reporter's level
5. Arrogant

Also, Terraoblivion: I'm afraid that some of your points are at risk of projecting the stereotype of... the snobbish European. For example, your contention that Germany is easily recognizable due to its shape: That's only true if one's education has involved perusing maps to some significant extent. Otherwise, Germany's isn't especially more memorable than that of other irregular shapes out there. It's even more questionable to expect that level of knowledge when you consider it was a different shape a mere 25 years ago.

Finally, to all those who think this is a petty dispute with no importance whatsoever: It is... except it's also a dispute about peoples' identities. Nobody likes their identity negated, denied or diminished. That's why we can see so many posts trying to educate others - it's all about affirming identity. That's pretty important to most folks.

[Zrak]

Then the team's win is even more stunning, I don't think I could beat 2 million people at Basketball. Let alone get them all in the stadium.

I'm sure most of them were on the bench, but you're still not allowed to have anywhere near that many people on the team. I know the U.S. won anyway, but that's a hell of a blown call.

[Aliquid]

One positive outcome of this debate... most of us now have a greater knowledge of where Slovenia is

[GolemsVoice]

Where Alabama is? In America!

[Zrak]

Yet Alabama is forever condemned to obscurity by heartless marketing executives who thought Mississippi Mud Pie was a catchier name for the vaguely walnutty chocolate confection on which Alabama banked its dreams of global prominence. I'm not saying those marketing executives were European, but I think it's a little funny how the Europeans seem so eager to sweep Alabama under the rug.

[Prince Raven]

This thread is pretty patronising towards Americans/sport players.

Reporter: "So you're going up against Slovenia, did you spend even 5 seconds on Google to learn the first thing about Slovenia?"
Player: "No. Excuse me while I stick my foot in my mouth."
This thread: "Man, what a jerk that reporter is. We can't hold professional American basketball players to such lofty standards as bothering to learn anything about their opponents."

[Marlowe]

Yet Alabama is forever condemned to obscurity by heartless marketing executives who thought Mississippi Mud Pie was a catchier name for the vaguely walnutty chocolate confection on which Alabama banked its dreams of global prominence. I'm not saying those marketing executives were European, but I think it's a little funny how the Europeans seem so eager to sweep Alabama under the rug.

Yeah, I mean the Slovenians even get a metal band named after their capital (in a different language mind). When was the last time you got to Mosh to Montgomery on your way to work?

[Zrak]

You managed to find and load a map of Europe in less than five seconds? How fast is your internet?

Yeah, I mean the Slovenians even get a metal band named after their capital (in a different language mind). When was the last time you got to Mosh to Montgomery on your way to work?

I would name a song "Mosh to Mongomery."

[Amidus Drexel]

This thread is pretty patronising towards Americans/sport players.

Reporter: "So you're going up against Slovenia, did you spend even 5 seconds on Google to learn the first thing about Slovenia?"
Player: "No. Excuse me while I stick my foot in my mouth."
This thread: "Man, what a jerk that reporter is. We can't hold professional American basketball players to such lofty standards as bothering to learn anything about their opponents."

Alternatively:

Reporter: "So, you're going up against Slovenia; did you go out of your way to memorize trivial and otherwise useless (to you) geographical information about Slovenia?"
Player: "No. Did you go out of your way to memorize trivial and otherwise useless (to you) geographical information about where I'm from?"
This thread: *no consensus whatsoever*

--
As has already been said, the basketball players likely did learn about their opponents - things relevant to the game first and foremost, and then probably things related to where they would be staying and the culture in that area immediately afterward (even if all they learned was a few words in Slovene, which beer to order, and the layout of the city). Where the country is on a map doesn't matter in this instance... and it doesn't matter which country. As I've said before, it wouldn't matter if the American basketball players couldn't place the US on a map - that's 1) completely irrelevant to the context of their trip, and 2) extremely unlikely to come up in conversation, short of being asked by a geography buff or someone deliberately trying to be an ass.

Yeah, I mean the Slovenians even get a metal band named after their capital (in a different language mind). When was the last time you got to Mosh to Montgomery on your way to work?

Not Alabama, perhaps, but on the same scale there's Boston and Chicago, to name two.

[Zrak]

I think it's more like:

Reporter: Do you know where Slovenia is?
Cousins: No. Do you know where Alabama is?
This thread: Zrak looks very handsome now that his beard has been trimmed, he is sure to be invited to all the best festives this season. Truly, he is the most gallant bachelor in all Alavenia.

Not Alabama, perhaps, but on the same scale there's Boston and Chicago, to name two.

The astute observer will notice both cities have bands named after them, and both cities are the home of famous chocolate desserts.

[RPGuru1331]

Alternatively:

Reporter: "So, you're going up against Slovenia; did you go out of your way to memorize trivial and otherwise useless (to you) geographical information about Slovenia?"
Player: "No. Did you go out of your way to memorize trivial and otherwise useless (to you) geographical information about where I'm from?"
This thread: *no consensus whatsoever*

Dude, if he was asked what the population density of Ljubljana, you'd have a point, but he was asked 'where is Slovenia?'. I like how people act like 20 seconds on wikipedia is some sort of onerous thing to look up, when you know you'll be interacting with folks in a professional capacity who are from there.

Where the country is on a map doesn't matter in this instance... and it doesn't matter which country.

If cousins was a basketball playing robot, maybe, but he's a person and expected to show basic courtesy. I'm sure some people wouldn't be happy with it, understandably, but at least it'd be a polite response to say, oh I don't know, 'no, sorry'. I'd have nothing against that.

As I've said before, it wouldn't matter if the American basketball players couldn't place the US on a map - that's 1) completely irrelevant to the context of their trip, and 2) extremely unlikely to come up in conversation, short of being asked by a geography buff or someone deliberately trying to be an ass.

Do you talk with new people at all in the course of your day? I do so with far more regularity than I'd like; being asked where I'm from, and in turn, asking the person where they're from, in both cases with a short explanation of where it is, is a more-than-daily occurrence. It's important to note that my small talk with strangers is essentially mimicry because I don't actually like speaking and am making a polite effort to avoid alienating people, so it's not like this is me imposing my thoughts on how people should interact on others. This is me observing a commonality that weirdly stops applying when US citizens interact with... well, anywhere else.

The point being, this is not some weird gotcha. It is in fact a basic part of interaction. Americans only think this kind of thing is weird because they're so used to interacting with other Americans, who for obvious reasons don't need to ask where the USA is.

[TheThan]

I think it's more like:

Reporter: Do you know where Slovenia is?
Cousins: No. Do you know where Alabama is?
This thread: Zrak looks very handsome now that his beard has been trimmed, he is sure to be invited to all the best festives this season. Truly, he is the most gallant bachelor in all Alavenia.


The astute observer will notice both cities have bands named after them, and both cities are the home of famous chocolate desserts.

I got it. Does that make me astute?