afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

[afroakuma]

Given how responsive the astral plane is to thought; is it possible that the first humanoids arising in the Astral did so in response to the thoughts of the le'Shay; thus the le'Shay 'seeding' the astral (and therefore the rest of the planes) with humanoidism?

The Astral isn't all that responsive to thought, and it definitely wouldn't have sparked anything off of the leShay. It's quite possible that the leShay themselves were not humanoid originally. The shape of humanoids is more related to that of dragons than of anything else.

I was expecting the Urdlen stuff to turn out to be Tharizdun.

Urdlen is a more interesting answer. Also surprise!

I don't suppose there is a more substantial relationship between Reigar and Illumians other than (Armstrong quality) sparkling and humanoid form?

Nil. Illumians are a very very young "race."

This has probably been asked in several forms by now, but have you noticed any blatant "ecological niches" you thought should be filled? Some alpha-predator that should be keeping magical-megafauna in check but isn't even hinted at, or some megafloura that shouldn't be as prominent as it is? Any key words to research would be cool.

It's actually been pretty impressive how many things exist to contend with D&D's ecology. The burbur, for instance, is an excellent pet for adventurers: it eats dangerous slimes and molds and is immune to their attacks. The thagar is an alien predator that hunts beholders. Even the undead have creatures to menace them, such as the strange sussurus, which subdues undead with a droning "song."

Next post will be a story update, if I'm allowed to post again.

[Naanomi]

I was going to guess Tharzidun was the last surviving God from the first Prime. Maybe the patron of the little omnicidal guys who necessitated the whole place blow up

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The shape of humanoids is more related to that of dragons than of anything else.

The humanoid shape is dragon-based? Could you expound upon this, or link to where you expounded upon it before?

[Naanomi]

Is the Far Plane the only other known 'separate reality' or is/could there be other 'totally different than the multiverse' places floating around 'out there'?

If another incompatible reality contacted the known multiverse, would the response largely be the same as a run in with the 'known' Far Realm (blot, nonsensical pseudonatural creatures, etc); being the multiverses response to anything incompatible; or would we expect things to be uniquely horrible in some unknown but notably different way?

[afroakuma]

I was going to guess Tharzidun was the last surviving God from the first Prime. Maybe the patron of the little omnicidal guys who necessitated the whole place blow up

I have no comment.

The humanoid shape is dragon-based? Could you expound upon this, or link to where you expounded upon it before?

Not dragon-based; I simply meant that dragons have heads, limbs...

Is the Far Plane the only other known 'separate reality' or is/could there be other 'totally different than the multiverse' places floating around 'out there'?

Well, consider alternate cosmologies, as well as various potential "strangenesses" of the multiverse; the Macrocosm, the Near Realm, the Ordial Plane... the Far Realm is distinct for being not any kind of reality.

Something I've come to realize in the long years of talking about the Far Realm is that it is not, broadly speaking, kindred to Lovecraft. H.P.'s alien and eldritch things were from a higher reality, a sort of terrible cosmic truth that cared nothing for our limited existences. Cthulhu and his kindred were living things, natives of this realm in a timelost age. The Far Realm cannot be, has never been; it would be as toxic and maddening to Elder Things and Mi-go and Deep Ones and the Great Race of Yith - and even perhaps to Cthulhu himself - as it is to humans, elves, dwarves and the worlds of D&D.

We continue.

Learned creature, attend to me now. Time grows now late - humor, once more? Surely you know better than to ask me of suns and shadows. In our realms, even time abases itself at our command. But if it will not die, then it will rise, and in continuing shall make of us all what it does in the end. Come, while the red of my eye still lingers. Come, and know.

It is a strange thing, this pain. Cold, I have never truly grasped. My understanding is a pallid thing indeed, for all that toiled I did, learned I did, and learned became through pains of effort. This is new, and I would say not correct, were that so. But my thoughts are to you barren and sere, plain and few. You have come to understand.

Attend to me now. The nomoi, sealed away by their lost goddesses. A catastrophic time for the juna as well, their patrons lost in struggle with the worm of the forbidden nothings. Gone out of the multiverse, their fire. A great stone falls into a pool, a lake that once ran clear and still. See you the ripple, and hear you the splash of unbidden wave as stone's fury rises and settles anew. The ripple spreads, and no matter how large the stone what mind thinks so wide a ripple be born? But it was so. The tripartite ones, their time would continue toward its end, and there was no saving them. The death gasp of arcane power, far hurwaeti did escry and entrap, and empire forged. Across that which is and that which also was, which could have been, the ripple rolled, and came then the six-lived, who stretched hand and edifice across the gulf of was not and will not be and web did extend. The six-lived, who in their number named one that sought and found but a mote of the worm and concealed it well. This we know. This I know, for never would I forget.

Your kindred, for now you are greater... they were of no god made. Learned you have become, of the new races, the sparkling, fickle reigar who their own gods betrayed, their own world blew asunder. With lakshu did they mate, art and violence in equal parts - they would say zeal and inspiration. With life, as is our art and science, so too did reigar play - witness in mind's eye the vessel called esthetic, living bridge of stars. With life, and with miscegenated spawn of war and wonder did they play, and a thing they made. Of little consequence, a small creature, quick to learn and change, quick to wane and die. Fragile. Powerless. Mutable. Of no native character it was, for no god had made it and maker had in this thing no investiture. A plastic thing it was, and all of its sort the same. It had but faith, a true and unprejudiced faith that was craved in outer planes. For it had no native god.

It was called "human."

Other gods would make this thing in turn, from clay and sand, from stolen herd or thieved spawnling or studied recreation. Dark prince would his hand extend and a mockery create, to deceive the gods and dismay them. A thing of violence, and they discarded it as worthless. One foolish god, and this I watched myself, his essence did attempt to meld with humankind. Delusion of the self, he would claim success, though many did not know him, and his name is rarely spoken.

With insight rare and forgotten did the juna seek in ether and across the realms of thought for lost heirs of thendar, and to these few bequeath secret worlds and bonds against discovery. Far different from ancient progenitor, mixed up perhaps with wind duke and bonded by the stuff of law, these were to succeed fading juna and fulfill their purpose. Ark-vessels, which shared elf and dwarf, orc and goblin, human and halfling, across so many worlds, spread by the juna to protect any one from a future crumbling like that of shattered egg. Their time abated, vanished were the juna from this multiverse, and what legacy made they became lost as heir after heir their secrets and learning abused. The reigar they envied, and with flattering words and crafts of alien form persuaded to a travel into ancient shattered space arrange. Where spun the phlogiston, there new methods did devise these creatures which even in my mind are locked and sealed, gift of the juna to unworthy adopted spawn. Witness, however: see them enter the Place of Portals and in meager hour eternal exile secure. Of She we shall not speak; it is not mine to inquire of Her, nor that of any in my fathoming.

The ripple... a moment, no more. It is the ichor I taste. A strange thing. I shall continue. Attend, if you will.

It is not known, I can only suspect - yes, even I who was First, for there is no trace - that in the calamity which did befall the bounds of that which is and should be, at that time, there in some fashion our notice did escape... but no, even this would not explain how in such numbers, with such power and artifice, such a vast thing would spring out of nothingness whole and complete. A great and terrible storm of the mind, past which no thing could be seen, and then they were come. Arril-thaduju. Epithets to mask fear. No threat they, in sense of threat like to your kind they did pose... but we feared. Long did we fear, and not alone. In alternities deep and vast and terrible, when peaceable armistice the upper beings did bond and only fury below remained, a silence, new and unknown, while the newcomers all did contemplate.

The human did spread, and in numbers great did please wakening gods who brought to new worlds, each after another, these changeable things of faith. A strange thing, which did ignite the rise of greatness in the deities, as though mere concept of natural selection in cosmic belief their own stores did increase. Where god and god did compete, both grew in might. And it was not correct.

Permit me to rest, learned creature; I suffer.

I speak once more unto you: we feared the humanoid, and the human, and the faith and these gods. Their immortality we knew to be a thing fragile and limited, if lost they source of nourishment in form of belief. It had been from ancient time an experiment to us, to defy the heavens and shun their works. We took their divine spawnlings and made them no more than scum. We took the waterfolk... but they found a new divinity, one more fierce and terrible, which in horrific shape appeared among us and broke our cities. What we twisted, it cannot be repaired. New servants we now culled from humanoid stock, and these we shaped and bent to our will. With power of remote realms, thought and potential, they were infused, in fashions painful and crude. Their forms, their very essence, melted to our touch. In hidden place, in secret realm on forsaken rock alone in silent egg we hid them from their gods. In older days our kind were slaughtered by divine wrath when godly power into the hands of mortals was bestowed. Many perished. To break them of faith, less than mortal they had to be reduced to, slaves of less use than shaboath. These new minions we molded as we hid them from the gods, and their very nature we fused with isolation and revulsion. They came to despair of their gods, then despise. It was correct. But we did not fathom the means they would find, from the transformations we had made, to flee from us. To lash out, and vanish as we crawled forth to recover our lost slaves. To sunlit realms they looked, whence we had stolen them in lost time when they ruled all. New things they found there now, they who had been alone and bereft of godly gift. Into the ether they sank, and seen their thoughts I have: these khen-zai desire, even more than vengeance against the deep masters who twisted them beyond knowing, to purge their lands, stolen as they believe, of those who rejoiced in the gifts of fickle gods. In time shall they return.

You must be greater, learned creature, for you are greater. No scum you, no maddened fingerling of Blibdoolpoolp, no warped and faceless thing of ether and magic. You have been transformed, learned creature, as you will come to transform others - none as greatly as you, and none shall be as great, but a thousand years you shall live now you are newmade, and the vast and hidden secrets of this Prime preserve. Attend to me now: I must pass. There is pain, in ways not expected. Cold. Dark. Long have I lived in it, but never known... go forth, newmade. You have become great, greater than deep master, and it is time for you to be free.

Pity? Thought I that such was purged from your nature. Even in this final time, I learn still. Wait, you will, for the silence? For Ilxon... who was Ilkahvval... for you, learned creature, that is correct.

That is correct.

Spoiler: Plain English

Show

Ilkahvval contemplates the incredible passage of time that he has lived as he teaches his final lessons to his student.

The emergence and sealing of Urdlen had cosmic ramifications. A reptilian race, the hurwaeti, trapped some small portion of the gnomes' great magic and became rulers of a multiplanetary empire. From across alternate Material Planes, the ancient spell weavers discovered this multiverse and erected their first nodes in this reality. The Juna began their slow decline, and prepared to seed the races of the many planets across a hundred spheres, so that no future calamity like the Broken Sphere could ever cause another genocide.

The reigar met and united with a warrior race, the lakshu. The offspring of their union became experiments in humanoid lifeshaping, as they possessed elements of both the lakshu warrior instinct and the inspiration of the reigar. Entertained for a time, the reigar introduced their new child-race to several worlds to see how they would fare, but quickly grew bored and moved on. These were the first humans, and the coupling of passion and inspiration had produced a unique race, one with great capacity for faith without an essential link to any god.

The Juna sought out an offshoot of the ancient thendar, a people who had assisted Law in the ancient war across planes and become alienated from their own kind: insular, closed-off and secretive. Believed to have mated with the vaati at some point, these beings, neither thendar nor phirblas nor dabus nor vaati, were selected for their potential, their neutrality, and their ability to network and adapt. The Juna gifted them with the secrets of interstellar voyaging, and the remnants of the ancient gnomish magics. They intended to create heirs with fates not bound up in any gods, who would continue the work of preserving the races of known space. Instead, they had accidentally revealed secrets of the First Sphere to their would-be heirs, who devised a more crude and exploitative method for astrogation, the spelljamming helm. These were the mercane.

Around the time of the catastrophe that brought forth Urdlen, the mind flayers first appeared, to the shock and suspicion of the aboleths. As their fear built, of the flayers, the humans, and the rise of new gods (for the goddess Blibdoolpoolp had liberated an older slave race of the aboleths at the price of inestimable bloodshed), the aboleths experimented with humanoid stock to make a new slave race, a twisted kind of life that would be disconnected from the gods. What they made were ethergaunts, who gained arcane power from their transplanar natures and used it to lash out against and escape from their masters.

Having passed on knowledge of the appearance of life on the Prime to a worthy successor, Ilkahvval surrenders to time and allows his life force to ebb away.

[Jurai]

Well, consider alternate cosmologies, as well as various potential "strangenesses" of the multiverse; the Macrocosm, the Near Realm, the Ordial Plane

Macrocosm and Near Realm? What information is there on these and in what sources can it be found?

[enderlord99]

Macrocosm and Near Realm? What information is there on these and in what sources can it be found?

"Near Realm" is just the term this thread uses to refer to where vestiges are. The official term is "void."

[Naanomi]

Something I've come to realize in the long years of talking about the Far Realm is that it is not, broadly speaking, kindred to Lovecraft. H.P.'s alien and eldritch things were from a higher reality, a sort of terrible cosmic truth that cared nothing for our limited existences. Cthulhu and his kindred were living things, natives of this realm in a timelost age. The Far Realm cannot be, has never been; it would be as toxic and maddening to Elder Things and Mi-go and Deep Ones and the Great Race of Yith - and even perhaps to Cthulhu himself - as it is to humans, elves, dwarves and the worlds of D&D.

I get that. My thoughts are along the line that perhaps it isn't even a 'place'; even in the broadest sense that it isn't a 'place' already. The Far Realm seems to me more like... a reaction. It is what happens when two completely incompatible places meet. It is like old computer programs that try to load junk data during an error; and usually everything just crashes, but occasionally something semi-functional comes out of it, usually to the detriment of everything and often causing permanent damage to the system in the process. The Blood Queen is the 'minus world' of the Multiverse, a bit of 'does not compute' that reality could just barely translate into something relatable.

In this view, the Far Realm is not even necessarily the same 'place' as much as it is just 'elsewhere'. The 'Far Realm' that gave us the Blood Queen isn't the same 'place' that the Uuvudaum live; which may both be totally separate from Thoon. There is no way to know, since everything on the 'other side' is just gibberish either way; and what is important is how the comprehensible multi-verse responds to such stuff... forming blots, twisting creatures into pseudonatural mockeries, and spawning various unique aberrations.

No idea as how this vibes with cannon or not, but it is the way that makes the most sense to me. Of course, trying to make sense of the Far Realm means my Wisdom has plummeted permanently and I can't summon anything cool anymore; so I'm probably not the best source of info about the subject anyways.

In any case, I agree about it not being a great fit for the 'way beyond you insignificant beings' sort of Cosmic Horror; the Deep Astral/Ethereal, or some tucked away back-corner of the Outer Planes; seems to be a better place for that flavor of 'More Important Than You' Incomprehensible Entity.

[afroakuma]

Macrocosm and Near Realm? What information is there on these and in what sources can it be found?

The Macrocosm is just a strange idea floated in the Monstrous Compendium entry of the chososion:

In fact, a graybeard named Vivan who holds to this theory speculates that the creature’s home plane intersects and permeates the multiverse only in the Inner Planes, similar to the way the Ethereal touches the Inner Planes and the Prime. Vivan also believes that this unknown plane, which he calls the Macrocosm, could act as a bridge to an entirely different multiverse. ’Course, Vivan now resides in the Madhouse with all the other barmies in Sigil.

The Near Realm is our term for wherever the blazes vestiges "are."

The Far Realm seems to me more like... a reaction. It is what happens when two completely incompatible places meet.

Mm, I don't buy it. For one thing, you can actually go "there." It also exhibits traits of permanence. That said, do with it what you like.

In any case, I agree about it not being a great fit for the 'way beyond you insignificant beings' sort of Cosmic Horror; the Deep Astral/Ethereal, or some tucked away back-corner of the Outer Planes; seems to be a better place for that flavor of 'More Important Than You' Incomprehensible Entity.

Sure it is; just more as origin than as locale.

[enderlord99]

For one thing, you can actually go "there."

Speaking of which, did I miss the ending of EttFR, or did you abandon it?

[Werephilosopher]

Ilkahvval's lessons

These were awesome.

[Naanomi]

I have a feeling I'm not explaining myself well... That if there were two or more utterly incomprehensible places that people have brushed with in the past there wouldn't be much of a way to tell they were different places... But that's ok.

Anyways: Flards... Infinite in size, but still living things. What would happen if one were infected with something transformative? Blue Slaad disease or the like?

[afroakuma]

Speaking of which, did I miss the ending of EttFR, or did you abandon it?

Nope. It just updates on a schedule of "when I feel like it."

These were awesome.

Glad you enjoyed it. Was a lot of work to track everything down and stick everything together, but I think all in all it worked. I miiiiiight use the format again in the future for another big answer.

[M Placeholder]

This question has probably been asked before, but what is the relationship between Tiamat and Takhisis? Is one a cheap knock off of the other?

Also, what are the origins of the Kuo-Toa and their patron diety?

[Tzardok]

Also, what are the origins of the Kuo-Toa and their patron diety?

If you take Afroakumas origin story for canon, they were created by the aboleths as a slave race. In Forgotten Realms, they are IIRC creations or descendents of the batrachi, the second creator race, the amphibian one. Don't really know for other settings.

[afroakuma]

I have a feeling I'm not explaining myself well...

You are, I just disagree with your premise.

Anyways: Flards... Infinite in size, but still living things.

For some value of that term.

What would happen if one were infected with something transformative? Blue Slaad disease or the like?

Nothing, they're immune to transformation.

This question has probably been asked before, but what is the relationship between Tiamat and Takhisis? Is one a cheap knock off of the other?

Nope. They are two distinct deities. Takhisis is actually much more powerful than Tiamat. It should be noted that Takhisis is not a dragon goddess; she is a goddess who takes on the form of Tiamat. Tiamat is explicitly a dragon goddess, though she has other worshippers.

Also, what are the origins of the Kuo-Toa and their patron diety?

The same as the origins of most patron deities and their creations.

[Forrestfire]

Out of curiosity, are there any outsiders with the gimmick of ripping peoples' souls out? As opposed to, say, corrupting them, or killing them and eating the soul, or the like.

[Judge_Worm]

Great story.

Back to questions.

How old is Io? Even by comparison to other powers.
What happens to a non-draconic worshipper of a Dragon deity like Io (as opposed to Bahamut and Tiamat who have sizable humanoid followings) when they die, what's their afterlife like?

[afroakuma]

Out of curiosity, are there any outsiders with the gimmick of ripping peoples' souls out? As opposed to, say, corrupting them, or killing them and eating the soul, or the like.

Not really, no.

How old is Io? Even by comparison to other powers.

If you go by the story, Io is just about the oldest anything in the current multiverse.

What happens to a non-draconic worshipper of a Dragon deity like Io (as opposed to Bahamut and Tiamat who have sizable humanoid followings) when they die, what's their afterlife like?

Deity's divine realm, same as always.

[Jurai]

Pseudonatural involves the Far Realm, Celestial is Good, Fiendish is Evil, Anarchic is Chaotic, Axiomatic is Lawful. What's the term for Neutral, if there is one? Secondly, is there any mention of malevolent weather in the planes and what sources can I find for them? I'm trying to come up with an initial plot for a 5e campaign.

[afroakuma]

Pseudonatural involves the Far Realm, Celestial is Good, Fiendish is Evil, Anarchic is Chaotic, Axiomatic is Lawful. What's the term for Neutral, if there is one?

There's not, really, but you could use "concordant" if you had a mind to.

Secondly, is there any mention of malevolent weather in the planes and what sources can I find for them?

Oh I'm quite certain that weather conditions of a particularly spiteful nature appear all over the Lower Planes, and of course some Elder Evils are associated with hateful weather as well. That said, if it's sentient malevolent weather you're looking for, you're actually out of luck - while the Upper Planes have some thinking thunders and conversant clouds, the Lower Planes don't. You could unleash a tempest, though - a living multielemental storm. Skriaxits, black clouds of vengeance and arctic tempests also exist.

[Eldan]

I'm not even sure what a concordant creature would get. I mean, there's no opposite alignment to smite, and apart from that, the alignment templates never got anything interesting.

[TheGeckoKing]

What's the Yugoloth......."business?". I know they answer to The General of Gehenna and the Oinioloth, but that's only really when they're in earshot of either one. Do the Yugoloths have one massive mercenary company that everyone works for, or do the Ultroloths each do their own thing as vassals to The General? I know they have a strictly enforced hierarchy, but I'm not quite sure what it does.

[unseenmage]

I'm not even sure what a concordant creature would get. I mean, there's no opposite alignment to smite, and apart from that, the alignment templates never got anything interesting.

I always assumed that there were two sides to being Neutral. Fighting against perceived imbalances and fighting to maintain perceived existing balance. Taken to the extreme the two could be each other's opposing viewpoints.

[Bad Wolf]

What's your favourite Eldritch Abomination?

[afroakuma]

What's the Yugoloth......."business?". I know they answer to The General of Gehenna and the Oinioloth, but that's only really when they're in earshot of either one. Do the Yugoloths have one massive mercenary company that everyone works for, or do the Ultroloths each do their own thing as vassals to The General? I know they have a strictly enforced hierarchy, but I'm not quite sure what it does.

Each ultroloth functions independently, as do many of their lessers. There are many, many, many groups of yugoloth mercenaries. Of course, rumor has it that they all act to manipulate the Blood War under the directives of the General of Gehenna...

What's your favourite Eldritch Abomination?

Myself, of course.

[enderlord99]

Myself, of course.

You claim to be a really big, powerful "something," yet making beef wellington is somehow too difficult for you.

[afroakuma]

You claim to be a really big, powerful "something," yet making beef wellington is somehow too difficult for you.

Throwing black lightning at fools who question my culinary proficiency is not, however.

And no, it's not difficult, it's a waste of time for a disappointing dish. Considering I hate just about everything in it except the beef, I'm better served by going out and eating a live cow.

[M Placeholder]

1 - What is your favourite Eldritch Abomination apart from yourself?

2 - What is the Relationship between Modron Outcasts and the energy pool of modrons as a whole? If one goes Rogue, does that mean the Modrons as a whole get weaker?

[enderlord99]

1 - What is your favourite Eldritch Abomination apart from yourself?

Since "eldritch" means "creepy" and "abomination" means "thing that shouldn't exist" I nominate this. I'm not sure who will or won't agree with me...