afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

[Jon_Dahl]

Perhaps this is not the right thread for it, but I'd like to understand something.

Aren't the devils and demons highly susceptible to incorporeal undead?

You have a 15th-level cleric (I know, they are rare) and you create some shadows and then control them. Very easy. You cast Plane Shift and tell the shadows to enslave some random layer of the Abyss. You Plane Shift back to Prime Material and wait for a week. Maybe two.

What are the demons going to do?

And what if the shadows were spectres instead?

[Urpriest]

Perhaps this is not the right thread for it, but I'd like to understand something.

Aren't the devils and demons highly susceptible to incorporeal undead?

You have a 15th-level cleric (I know, they are rare) and you create some shadows and then control them. Very easy. You cast Plane Shift and tell the shadows to enslave some random layer of the Abyss. You Plane Shift back to Prime Material and wait for a week. Maybe two.

What are the demons going to do?

And what if the shadows were spectres instead?

Afro may have a more detailed answer to this, but in general I'd imagine demons are about as likely to have magic weapons, PC class levels, and the like, as the average human, while being on average more resistant to this sort of thing. So I don't think they're any more vulnerable than Primes.

[*.*.*.*]

What is the reason for most devils/demons having unlimited teleportation (and the greater version at that)?

Something to do with a fallen celestial that the 'loths own. IIRC they whisper the True Name of the celestial to a fiend when it's 'born' and it allows it to teleport at will.


Can an undead have its soul reincarnated into a living creature?

[Deadline]

Afro may have a more detailed answer to this, but in general I'd imagine demons are about as likely to have magic weapons, PC class levels, and the like, as the average human, while being on average more resistant to this sort of thing. So I don't think they're any more vulnerable than Primes.

Also, most of their natural weapons count as Magic, don't they?

[Urpriest]

Also, most of their natural weapons count as Magic, don't they?

That only helps with DR, it doesn't have an effect on incorporeality. It's why Allips can put the Tarrasque into a coma.

[Psyren]

Also, most of their natural weapons count as Magic, don't they?

Only for the purposes of overcoming DR - it won't give them a 50% chance of hitting incorporeals unless they use actual magic weapons.

But the Abyss also has heavy-hitters like Orcus and Pale Night who have no problems dealing with any number of undead.

[Jon_Dahl]

Afro may have a more detailed answer to this, but in general I'd imagine demons are about as likely to have magic weapons, PC class levels, and the like, as the average human, while being on average more resistant to this sort of thing. So I don't think they're any more vulnerable than Primes.

When you read about D&D demons, you don't get that picture. No magic weapons, hardly no PC levels and nothing useful against incorporeal undead... Nothing.
Primes seemed primed (no pun intended) for undead. Every little village has a cleric etc.

If you just look at canon, just look at all the things that have ever been written, it seems that the normal prime village will have one or two ways to handle such problems, but demons with their claws and odd magic weapons are not.

[Deadline]

That only helps with DR, it doesn't have an effect on incorporeality. It's why Allips can put the Tarrasque into a coma.

Right, forgot about that. I guess we've tended to just houserule them as magic weapons in all respects.

[afroakuma]

My g/f is quite a talented sketch artist, I might see if she can do it in her spare time.

Ooh, that would be excellent. Please keep me posted, I have certain standards re: non-contamination of the artistic brainspace. Once you see modron art, forever will it dominate your destiny... etc.

What is the reason for most devils/demons having unlimited teleportation (and the greater version at that)?

Fluff reason or crunch reason?

Perhaps this is not the right thread for it, but I'd like to understand something.

Aren't the devils and demons highly susceptible to incorporeal undead?

Some are, many aren't.

You have a 15th-level cleric (I know, they are rare) and you create some shadows and then control them. Very easy. You cast Plane Shift and tell the shadows to enslave some random layer of the Abyss. You Plane Shift back to Prime Material and wait for a week. Maybe two.

What are the demons going to do?

Laugh at you. They might just do the lazy thing and trot out someone with dark cleric powers to rebuke/control them - just because rank and file demons don't have those powers doesn't mean elites don't. In the Abyss, many layers have demon lords who protect their servants from negative energy because Orcus is a foe of theirs. Mainly, though, they're going to ignore you; undead can't create spawn from slain demons. A demon strong enough to act independently will avoid incorporeal undead until it has a means to murder them all (wand of fireball and a couple of decent shots will do it) while those too weak to escape are just going to reform shortly anyway. In the end, all your shadows can do is make bags of corrupt flesh be over there instead of over here.

And what if the shadows were spectres instead?

They'll bother a few demons slightly higher up the food chain, but the same terms apply. Spectres can't create spawn from demons. Armanites and arrow demons can bomb them with magic arrows from a distance, lilitu have the ability to cast mock divine spells that can harm undead, palrethees and babau both have defensive measures that will injure even incorporeal undead (50% of the time) for touching them, solamiths can just fling soulfire, etc.

Remember that the Abyss is home to many other things. Whisper demons aren't tanar'ri, but they are incorporeal and can rip shadows to nothingness with ease. Abyssal undead, loumaras (all of which are incorporeal) and fiends/fiendish allies with spellcaster levels will all make short work of incorporeal undead.

[The Insanity]

Fluff reason or crunch reason?

Both, if there's a difference.

[Jon_Dahl]

Laugh at you. They might just do the lazy thing and trot out someone with dark cleric powers to rebuke/control them - just because rank and file demons don't have those powers doesn't mean elites don't. In the Abyss, many layers have demon lords who protect their servants from negative energy because Orcus is a foe of theirs. Mainly, though, they're going to ignore you; undead can't create spawn from slain demons. A demon strong enough to act independently will avoid incorporeal undead until it has a means to murder them all (wand of fireball and a couple of decent shots will do it) while those too weak to escape are just going to reform shortly anyway. In the end, all your shadows can do is make bags of corrupt flesh be over there instead of over here.



They'll bother a few demons slightly higher up the food chain, but the same terms apply. Spectres can't create spawn from demons. Armanites and arrow demons can bomb them with magic arrows from a distance, lilitu have the ability to cast mock divine spells that can harm undead, palrethees and babau both have defensive measures that will injure even incorporeal undead (50% of the time) for touching them, solamiths can just fling soulfire, etc.

Remember that the Abyss is home to many other things. Whisper demons aren't tanar'ri, but they are incorporeal and can rip shadows to nothingness with ease. Abyssal undead, loumaras (all of which are incorporeal) and fiends/fiendish allies with spellcaster levels will all make short work of incorporeal undead.

Thank you, that was an excellent response! I have nothing further.

[afroakuma]

Can an undead have its soul reincarnated into a living creature?

If it's an undead with an actual soul, and is destroyed, then I don't see why not. If you mean the soul of the creature it was, then it depends on where the soul is currently.

Both, if there's a difference.

Well, the fluff reason is that the yugoloths gave the true names of the fiends to a creature tapped into the Astral Plane, which allowed them to subconsciously call on its powers to shift them from place to place instantaneously. The crunch reason is Villain Teleportation.

Thank you, that was an excellent response! I have nothing further.

Glad to oblige.

[*.*.*.*]

If you mean the soul of the creature it was, then it depends on where the soul is currently.

Say it is a Lich who believes the best protection for his soul is another living creature, could he reincarnate his soul as a living creature and still walk around as a Lich?

[afroakuma]

Say it is a Lich who believes the best protection for his soul is another living creature, could he reincarnate his soul as a living creature and still walk around as a Lich?

No. Still no.

[CRtwenty]

Is Gith dead? Or is she just imprisoned/hiding somewhere?

[afroakuma]

Is Gith dead? Or is she just imprisoned/hiding somewhere?

Her soul is imprisoned within Dis under the control of Dispater.

[Brookshw]

So, Titans, silly tall buggers, got some people in prison iirc in Carceri, others hanging out in the upper planes, one in Sigil. Doesn't seem like there's a consistent shake for them though I suppose that makes sense. So are the Carceri guys actually in prison or just hanging out? How do they fit into the grand scheme as it were, if they do at all. Canonfire and Planewalker seem a bit sparse on the topic.

[afroakuma]

So, Titans, silly tall buggers, got some people in prison iirc in Carceri, others hanging out in the upper planes, one in Sigil. Doesn't seem like there's a consistent shake for them though I suppose that makes sense. So are the Carceri guys actually in prison or just hanging out? How do they fit into the grand scheme as it were, if they do at all. Canonfire and Planewalker seem a bit sparse on the topic.

Are we talking about big-T Titans or little-t titans? The latter are described in the Monster Manual, while the former are the gods who predated the Olympians. If it's the first crew, they're (almost) all bound to Carceri but not actually "imprisoned;" each has a realm and typically enjoys a lot of creature comforts within, though said realms are of course scattered across six infinite hellscapes. They have their own plots and schemes to pursue, many of which involve escape from the Red Prison and/or revenge on the MacCronus clan.

[Jowgen]

Hi, the raw Q&A thread sent me here after admitting that they do not possess the wisdom I seek, and that it is he known as Afrokuma that I must seek.

My questions are rather basic AFAIK, and most revolve around the Plane of Shadow, as in the 3rd edition transitive plane, in the standard Great Wheel cosmology

I know that just about every plane is connected to the big cloud that is the Astral Plane, and that each plane either has its own etheral plane or no etheral plane at all (couldn't tell you which is which though), but when it comes to the Plane of Shadow, I'm at a loss. Sure, it allegedly connects alternative material planes (if one bothers with those), but just how does it fit into the 'planar map'?

Also, plane of shadow residents. Just how populated is it, and is there any way to make guesses at its demographic?

Lastly, Erebus, the alleged Lesser Deity of this plane. Is he generally considered canon? What are people's opinion on him?

[afroakuma]

My questions are rather basic AFAIK, and most revolve around the Plane of Shadow, as in the 3rd edition transitive plane, in the standard Great Wheel cosmology

I have a passing familiarity with it, yes.

I know that just about every plane is connected to the big cloud that is the Astral Plane, and that each plane either has its own etheral plane or no etheral plane at all (couldn't tell you which is which though), but when it comes to the Plane of Shadow, I'm at a loss. Sure, it allegedly connects alternative material planes (if one bothers with those), but just how does it fit into the 'planar map'?

Helpful illustrations. The Plane of Shadow is similar to the Ethereal Plane, in that it is coexistent to the Material Plane.

Also, plane of shadow residents. Just how populated is it, and is there any way to make guesses at its demographic?

It's not densely populated at all. Until it is. Those parts are scary.

A multitude of creatures call the Plane of Shadow home. Creatures with the dark and shadow templates can be found in all varieties, as well as shadar-kai, darkweavers, gloomwings, khayal genies, greeloxes, shades, shadelings, shadows, shadowswyfts, shadow spiders, shadow mastiffs, shadow dragons, shadow etc. etc.

Lastly, Erebus, the alleged Lesser Deity of this plane. Is he generally considered canon? What are people's opinion on him?

Canonical? Yes. Important? Not really. I can't really address the last question without a more specific idea of which "people" we're referring to.

[Brookshw]

Are we talking about big-T Titans or little-t titans? The latter are described in the Monster Manual, while the former are the gods who predated the Olympians. If it's the first crew, they're (almost) all bound to Carceri but not actually "imprisoned;" each has a realm and typically enjoys a lot of creature comforts within, though said realms are of course scattered across six infinite hellscapes. They have their own plots and schemes to pursue, many of which involve escape from the Red Prison and/or revenge on the MacCronus clan.

So Cronus' cronnies are distinct from the other big-T? No love lost in Carceri I guess. Maybe I should just think about the whole shebang as a bunch of dragons, some are here, some are there, some have agendas, some are twits. But hey, I did notice Planes of Conflict attributed Hecatoncheires to Gaea as her kid born at the Titan's bequest so, ya know, that's fun.

Moving on, caps on the limit to type VI demons, angels etc. Or, maybe caps. Iirc the 2e MM had the number of (known) Balors in existance set at 27 (24?). Solars as I recall also had some cap from 1e but I'm beyond hazy at what that number was. Anywho, a Solar falls. Assuming the cap is true (and what's it based on anyway if gods make them as servants ) who decides on raising up the next Solar? The Hebdomad doesn't sound right since the whole "servant" thing.

Also a bit offtopic-ish (/readied action to dodge thrown books and death gazes), have you looked at any of the 5e MM stuff? Plenty of Angels, Demons, and other planar-y stuff I hear, curious what your take is on it if you have one.

[afroakuma]

So Cronus' cronnies are distinct from the other big-T? No love lost in Carceri I guess.

No idea what this is trying to say. I was referring to Cronos and company.

Moving on, caps on the limit to type VI demons, angels etc. Or, maybe caps. Iirc the 2e MM had the number of (known) Balors in existance set at 27 (24?). Solars as I recall also had some cap from 1e but I'm beyond hazy at what that number was. Anywho, a Solar falls. Assuming the cap is true (and what's it based on anyway if gods make them as servants ) who decides on raising up the next Solar? The Hebdomad doesn't sound right since the whole "servant" thing.

The cap was also a product of an era that assumed you'd be using one standard pantheon and not all the Planes. So of that pantheon, its nonevil gods, in all probability.

Also a bit offtopic-ish (/readied action to dodge thrown books and death gazes), have you looked at any of the 5e MM stuff? Plenty of Angels, Demons, and other planar-y stuff I hear, curious what your take is on it if you have one.

There's only one recycled bit of devil art in there (hamatula) and otherwise they made things look really good. So far I'm not sold on the general trim-down on powers and features that 5E has gone ahead with - I understand why the decisions were made, but I don't agree with them. They got my hopes up a bit with modrons, but holy cow did they ever fail hard there - still constructs, and they only adapted the drones, and they recycled the art of all five. Still, it was a half-step in a sort-of-right direction.

[Brookshw]

No idea what this is trying to say. I was referring to Cronos and company.

I swear you do this on purpose

There's only one recycled bit of devil art in there (hamatula) and otherwise they made things look really good. So far I'm not sold on the general trim-down on powers and features that 5E has gone ahead with - I understand why the decisions were made, but I don't agree with them. They got my hopes up a bit with modrons, but holy cow did they ever fail hard there - still constructs, and they only adapted the drones, and they recycled the art of all five. Still, it was a half-step in a sort-of-right direction.

Wait, they REALLY recycled the art of the original Modrons?

Okay, I got lazy and stopped linking. But you remember, I know you do

[...]

I asked this question in the last thread, but I don't think it was answered (not that I'm complaining, you have a lot of things to answer). If it was, just tell me, because I didn't see it.
Do you have any idea of the location, whether planar, spatial, or both, of the Aboleth Elder Evils?

EDIT: Also, what's up with the Formians? They aren't the core outsiders of Mechanus, so what do they have to do with anything?

[afroakuma]

I swear you do this on purpose

Do what? The only uses of "Big T" I can think of are either the tarrasque or Tharizdun, and titans of any stripe have nothing to do with either of them.

Wait, they REALLY recycled the art of the original Modrons?

No, that would be interesting by comparison. They recycled the art from Dragon Magazine.

I asked this question in the last thread, but I don't think it was answered (not that I'm complaining, you have a lot of things to answer). If it was, just tell me, because I didn't see it.
Do you have any idea of the location, whether planar, spatial, or both, of the Aboleth Elder Evils?

I could have sworn I answered a question like this. Bolothamogg is in the Far Realm, Piscaethces has a realm in Baator, Holashner actually physically exists in the depths of a Prime world somewhere (Oerth, if you're following the Savage Tide adventure path). Shothotugg is on the Prime Material Plane... somewhere. Somewhere far away, hopefully. It's out in wildspace or in the Flow, seeking new worlds to consume. Y'chak is the mystery; it understands and promotes the idea of evil, and communicates actively with cultists and fanatics, but its nature and lack of presence would suggest it is confined to the Far Realm. We don't know about Y'chak one way or the other, which is probably what it wanted.

EDIT: Also, what's up with the Formians? They aren't the core outsiders of Mechanus, so what do they have to do with anything?

They still live there. They're invasive expansionists, a good fit for a different flavor of lawful neutral.

[...]

Thanks for the help. I wish I had as many source materials as you...

Amazon.com has failed me.

[Jowgen]

The Plane of Shadow is similar to the Ethereal Plane, in that it is coexistent to the Material Plane.

Thanks for granting me thy wisdom, planewalker

Going from this, I vaguely recall reading at some point that there are planes that have their own Ethereal Planes, which was mentioned in some context about spells using the etheral plane not working on planes that don't. Is this correct, and if yes, would a plane with a coexistent Ethereal Plane also have it's own plane of Shadow? Also, assuming other planes can have their own "lesser" transitive planes, how would I go about finding out if they have one?

With Erebus, I guess by people I mean both denizens of the more prominent planes, and actual people playing the game. I've never heard of anyone having Erebus in their campaign, and I'm not sure he even gets mentioend outside that one Dragon Magazine issue; so I suppose I'm really just wondering whether he is at all something worthwhile/to be concerned about in the D&D multiverse.

[Brookshw]

Do what? The only uses of "Big T" I can think of are either the tarrasque or Tharizdun, and titans of any stripe have nothing to do with either of them.

Are we talking about big-T

On. Purpose. =P

No, that would be interesting by comparison. They recycled the art from Dragon Magazine.

Huh, that's an odd step.

[afroakuma]

Going from this, I vaguely recall reading at some point that there are planes that have their own Ethereal Planes, which was mentioned in some context about spells using the etheral plane not working on planes that don't. Is this correct

Nope.

it's own plane of Shadow?

Nope.

With Erebus, I guess by people I mean both denizens of the more prominent planes, and actual people playing the game. I've never heard of anyone having Erebus in their campaign, and I'm not sure he even gets mentioend outside that one Dragon Magazine issue; so I suppose I'm really just wondering whether he is at all something worthwhile/to be concerned about in the D&D multiverse.

Ahh. Not really, no.

[Psyren]

I just don't get why people are so enamored of modrons. They look really creepy to me with those fleshy lips and eyes poking out of metal casings. Hardly what I would call axiomatic perfection; they look way more chaotic to me, especially the Dragon Mag art linked above.

That was one change PF did that I liked, making Inevitables the iconic Lawful Outsider and simply giving them construct-like abilities.

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