Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

[Jacob.Tyr]

Nope . They are my favorite flavor of any class, just a shame the mechanics are a mess. Anything I can do to fix this is a step in the right direction, and half the tables/threads/groups/etc I play with will be more than happy to see this one go live.

...Then again, I have two Gurus and a Warder going in PbP, not counting NPCs in the one I GM for. I live for fringe cases

Currently running two warders in live games, and could not be happier. Different Archetypes, different maneuver loadouts, radically different feels. Everyone should just be a Warder, it's got ranged, sword and board, THF, TWF, everything you need! Support? **** man, load up on Golden Lion. Charging/DPR? Primal furry ftw. Ranged? Heck, Solar Wind and Golden Lion got you covered. It's got knockdowns, repositioning, flanking, multi-target/single target. Want to play the ultimate sunderer? It can do that, too.

I'm honestly having trouble coming up with other classes that fit concepts I like more than Warder does.

[squiggit]

I kinda feel the same way, I have two warders I'm running and they look absolutely nothing alike and I have a third in the works that doesn't have much in the way of similarities either. The class is just beautiful.

Probably jumping on the harbinger bandwagon a bit too though.

[Snowbluff]

Nope . They are my favorite flavor of any class, just a shame the mechanics are a mess. Anything I can do to fix this is a step in the right direction, and half the tables/threads/groups/etc I play with will be more than happy to see this one go live.

...Then again, I have two Gurus and a Warder going in PbP, not counting NPCs in the one I GM for. I live for fringe cases

I don't have any other PoW PbP going on right now. Our lovely Miss Pimpington is the only build I was working on, and if you've noticed she's class centric, not maneuvers centric. If I was a wiser demiurge, I would have done some Scarlet Throne focus, but right now her strike plan is a mess. I would like to build another fine lady, possibly with the divine gish option.

[squiggit]

I don't have any other PoW PbP going on right now. Our lovely Miss Pimpington is the only build I was working on, and if you've noticed she's class centric, not maneuvers centric. If I was a wiser demiurge, I would have done some Scarlet Throne focus, but right now her strike plan is a mess. I would like to build another fine lady, possibly with the divine gish option.

I probably should have put more thought into my warder... I just picked an archetype that looked nifty and was appropriate for a self absorbed idiot.

Though on that topic, Dervish Defender AC can get a bit silly at lower levels. Two Weapon Defense is there to compensate for not having access to full plate, but at level one or two that armor is rare anyways, and it becomes not entirely difficult to make yourself unhittable by most low level mobs. Though, level one is a very short level, so it's not a particularly nasty problem unless you're on a really slow XP track.

Incidentally, the name of the feature is a bit confusing, because there's a feat with the same name and a similar premise in core pathfinder.

[ghanjrho]

You can count me in as not being a fan of recharge on natural 20, for one simple reason: don't penalize players for bad luck. While I like the "action less" aspect of it, (similar to the Crusader) the unluckiest you ever got with the Crusader was having to wait two turns to get the maneuver you wanted. And you get cut that down to one with a feat.
Consider the class as it stands. You have one class feature encouraging QLs to move (or at least take a move) every turn, and you swapped out the most multi-attack inclined disciple the stalker gets access to. You still have Broken Blade, but it's very secondary to the Veiled Moon/Scarlet Throne/Mithral Current triad that will be dominating this archtype. All of which are disciplines focused on more individual attacks. Yes, they all have a full-attack maneuver or few hiding in tem somewhere, but not until the higher maneuver levels.
It would work fine of you were sure of getting a natural 20 every few rounds, but you also have to consider the player who almost never rolls a 20, especially when you aren't giving them a lot of attack rolls to make.

[Jacob.Tyr]

You can count me in as not being a fan of recharge on natural 20, for one simple reason: don't penalize players for bad luck. While I like the "action less" aspect of it, (similar to the Crusader) the unluckiest you ever got with the Crusader was having to wait two turns to get the maneuver you wanted. And you get cut that down to one with a feat.
Consider the class as it stands. You have one class feature encouraging QLs to move (or at least take a move) every turn, and you swapped out the most multi-attack inclined disciple the stalker gets access to. You still have Broken Blade, but it's very secondary to the Veiled Moon/Scarlet Throne/Mithral Current triad that will be dominating this archtype. All of which are disciplines focused on more individual attacks. Yes, they all have a full-attack maneuver or few hiding in tem somewhere, but not until the higher maneuver levels.
It would work fine of you were sure of getting a natural 20 every few rounds, but you also have to consider the player who almost never rolls a 20, especially when you aren't giving them a lot of attack rolls to make.

Honestly, with the sheath recovery mechanic and access to mithral current stances, possibly feats etc, it becomes really easy to spam maneuvers over and over again by just sheathing/unsheathing. It does sort of shoe-horn the archetype into using Mithral Current, though.

[Novawurmson]

Put my hat in the ring for "no nat 20 recharge mechanic." The point of the recharge mechanics we have currently is that they promote interesting decision making. The stalker can choose to do no damage for a round to become very hard to hit. The warder gives up proactive attacking for defensive zone control. The warlord gambles attempting a specific set of actions for a big reward.

The nat 20 recharge mechanic has no decision-making attached to it. It's purely feast or famine on RNG.

For the record, I'd be fine with a crusader-like system, which is built around making decisions from the limited abilities given to you, just not something that the player can't control at all.

[Elricaltovilla]

I probably should have put more thought into my warder... I just picked an archetype that looked nifty and was appropriate for a self absorbed idiot.

Though on that topic, Dervish Defender AC can get a bit silly at lower levels. Two Weapon Defense is there to compensate for not having access to full plate, but at level one or two that armor is rare anyways, and it becomes not entirely difficult to make yourself unhittable by most low level mobs. Though, level one is a very short level, so it's not a particularly nasty problem unless you're on a really slow XP track.

Incidentally, the name of the feature is a bit confusing, because there's a feat with the same name and a similar premise in core pathfinder.

I'd like to ask a little more about this, actually. Your Warder, you put very little thought into them right? How effective would you say your character is though? Something we want to promote is the idea of there being no bad choices. Do you like how your warder plays?

[Togath]

comments about the nat 20 thing

What if I moved it to "on any crit"? The archetype does have ways to boost their chances(stalker talents, a keen weapon/improved critical, and their new level 5 ki power[power attack, but for crits]).
I had avoided doing so for power level worries, but it would help encourage use of their new ki power.
In general, I'm trying to direct the class toward fewer, but stronger, attacks(hence things like easier to activate deadly strikes, but only on your first attack after activating them).
Crits were my first idea, but you folk have had a point about how that encourages the opposite of the sort of fighting style I'm aiming for.
Any ideas for better ways to encourage it?

Honestly, with the sheath recovery mechanic and access to mithral current stances, possibly feats etc, it becomes really easy to spam maneuvers over and over again by just sheathing/unsheathing. It does sort of shoe-horn the archetype into using Mithral Current, though.

They can only recover one maneuver per round by sheathing or moving though(otherwise it could potentially be abused for infinite recharges each round).

I get why this is the way it is, but I feel like it's too wordy. It's basically just "For the purposes of Mithral Current and other abilities, a Quicksilver Lance can sheathe a polearm or spear by readying it, as one would any other weapon. At 7th level she may do this as a swift action""

It's been one of the hardest abilities to get worded right.
I'll likely switch it to that description(though I will probably add "though they do not actually sheathe their weapon" to help avoid ambiguity).

[Jacob.Tyr]

They can only recover one maneuver per round by sheathing or moving though(otherwise it could potentially be abused for infinite recharges each round).

If you're trying to make the archetype be all about Mithral Current, I think recovering a single maneuver and getting a boost to your strikes every round is a pretty damned solid mechanic. If the assumption is this is a spear-wielding Bushi Stalker, then I think the randomness of the other bit is fine. They have an easy way to regain a maneuver, and it also gives them really noticeable boosts to do so on top of that.

If it's just a stalker that uses a spear for well aimed single strikes? Then yeah I agree with everyone else.

[ghanjrho]

The majority (of not all) weapons in the spear/polearms groups only crit on a 20 to begin with. So with keen/critical edge, you're still only looking at a 15% chance on any given attack, and that's having allocated a stalker art and a feat/enchant. Using the new ki ability helps, but opens a new can of worms: now you're spending ki, frequently at that, to try and increase the odds of a large recharge. And this still doesn't relieve you from the mercy of the dice problem. And it still winds up a frankly boring mechanic. Both in fluff, and in play. Which is ultimately the biggest strike against it. It's just... There. No strategy, no decision making, just "hey, you lucked out!"

[Jacob.Tyr]

Why not just leave the normal stalker recovery mechanic? It fits well enough with what you've thrown together, and I don't think most archetypes change recovery anyway.

[deuxhero]

Mentioned it before, but Clockwatcher and Distorted Clock is still WAY too friendly to caster's picking them up for the low price of some skill points and one feat each.

[Jacob.Tyr]

Why do some style feats require 13 for the end of the chain, while others require 11?

Iron tortoise I can see, keeps someone from going all out with shield bashes and getting a pile of full BAB attacks with their mainhand for a bit longer, but I'm not sure if that is how it should work anyway. Seems a bit crazy to double your attacks, while letting half be at full BAB. Is this just me misreading the feat?

[Novawurmson]

What if I moved it to "on any crit"?

It's the same problem: Maneuver recovery based on random chance, not player decisions.

A natural 20 has a 5% (1/20) chance of occurring. If you up that to 17-20, you've still only got a 20% chance of recovering a maneuver - either way, you're not making a decision, you're being forced to spam an ability and hope you get the outcome you desire.

And just to expand a little further, random chance is bad for players. A PC will be forced to go through challenge after challenge, session after session; this means that there is more opportunity for a bad outcome to happen. Any given NPC will generally appear once (i.e. the combat in which they presumably get stomped by the players); random chance is wonderful for an NPC because it means it has a chance to do something beyond its normal scope.

Example #1: Critical fumble rules.

Any given player is going to roll dozens if not hundreds of rolls over the course of a campaign; with that sample size, there is essentially a certainty of a natural 1 being rolled for each player. If a houserule reads that whenever you roll a natural 1, you automatically drop your weapon/die/become dazed/etc., then you can know with a certainty that your character will endure one of those conditions. Meanwhile, NPCs with a lifespan of 2-3 rounds will only have a very small chance of actually being affected by those rules (because they may only roll 1-3 dice in their entire existence) and thus benefit greatly.

Example #2: The store

Imagine you have a budget for groceries $50 a week. Every week, you go to the store and buy $50 worth of groceries. You eat food. Yay.

Imagine instead that you have a budget of $50 a week, but every week, when you get to the checkout counter, you spin on a wheel that can give you a variety of effects from giving you your groceries for free to doubling their cost. The weeks that you get free food are great, but on the weeks your cost gets doubled, you don't get enough to eat and potentially die of starvation - especially if you get two or even three weeks of double-cost food.

Then some joker comes in from out of town and grabs $1,000 worth of food and walks up to the register. If he gets everything free, he gets more food than you get over several months. If he gets it at double cost, he shrugs and leaves with nothing - it doesn't matter to him, he doesn't have to live there, and he's never coming back.

In the same way, a player can get "starved" of recovering maneuvers - it sucks for the player, because they have to deal with the results of the dice rolls for the rest of this session and every session after, but it doesn't matter for the NPCs.

[Togath]

If the assumption is this is a spear-wielding Bushi Stalker, then I think the randomness of the other bit is fine. They have an easy way to regain a maneuver, and it also gives them really noticeable boosts to do so on top of that.

That is the assumption.
Or at least what I'm trying to encourage.
Part of my issue with just using the base one is a: all stalker archetypes so far have changed it(or at least one of their recovery methods), and b: it just doesn't feel right(fluff-wise) in context...
Perhaps changing the ac boost to a dodge bonus rather than insight? It'll still be the same mechanic, but it would also follow the agility theme.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright, so: Harbinger is being PDF'd for release!

I'm super excited about this and we'll keep everyone posted as developments continue. In the meantime, feedback is still appreciated; however, any further fixes will need to wait for the final release, 'cause this train's a-rollin'.

[Lord_Gareth]

And now for a preview of one of the new Martial Traditions

Spoiler

Show

The Lens Maker Society

Alignment: Any

Symbol: A pair of spectacles; one lense is etched with a sword, the other with an eye.

Disciplines: A Lens Maker may trade access to one martial discipline of their choice for access to the Mithral Current discipline.

Oath: It is quite possible to work with the Lens Maker Society and not be a member or a full member. An individual is only accepted as a formal Apprentice and inducted into the secretive part of the organization after their mentor and fellows are absolutely certain of their discretion and loyalty. Once - and if - such a point is reached, the recruit is invited to a secret place at the witching hour, where a circle of Lens Makers induct them in a formal ceremony and ask them to swear the following oath.

“With word and deed, I will aid those weaker than myself against the corruption that threatens them. I will aid my brothers and sisters in guiding society to justice, in protecting it from exploitation, and in arming it with the knowledge it needs to shelter its citizens. In enlightening others, I become an ally of hope and a servant of others, and may my eyes darken and my tomorrows fade if I prove faithless.”

Allegiance Benefit: In addition to access to the Mithral Current discipline (exchanging a discipline of their choice), the Lens Maker benefits from a +2 competence bonus to Disguise, Knowledge (Local) and Search checks, and needs only 2 rounds to make a Disguise check without the aid of magic rather than the usual time. A Lens Maker with the Quick Draw feat may draw a hidden weapon (such as a sheathed sword cane or one hidden with the Sleight of Hand Skill) as a free action.

A Lens Maker who violates their oath loses access to their skill bonuses to Disguise, Knowledge (Local) and Search, as well as their ability to make Disguise checks and draw hidden weapons faster, until such a time as they atone with a formal apology and a mission of penitence from a Master Maker, usually involving work to remind them of the principles forgotten or broken in their transgression. Lens Makers only rarely hunt or even spurn those who were once part of the organization, though members leaving it may find themselves awkwardly blackmailed if they accidentally (or purposefully) oppose the organization’s goals.

Description: The Lens Maker Society is a study in applied force and subtlety of purpose. The organization exists to promote the welfare of the culture it joins; its members vote to promote justice, aid the poor and downtrodden, and encourage the spread of education and innovations that improve quality of life for the common man. Its chapter houses are public, and the Lens Makers are unafraid to publicly support their pet causes and act as activists within their homes and further abroad.

And then there’s the things that go on behind closed doors.

The Lens Makers are a benevolent organization, but they back that benevolence up by exploiting the weak-willed and politically corrupt. Members gather intelligence on local politicians and community leaders. Where those leaders fail to protect and support the weak, the Lens Makers step in to force them into just action. The Lens Maker Society does not pretend to hold a moral high ground when it deals in blackmail, but it is also quite happy to cynically point to its results and let them speak for the organization. Actually assassinating corrupt leaders is fairly rare, and happens only when the Society uncovers sins that truly cannot be borne - diabolism, systemic abuse of their families, and murder among them. These truly unforgivable crimes aside, the Lens Makers take the stance that the corrupt are more useful as tools than they ever could be as corpses, a stance that can be seen in their recruitment. Often, the Society chooses to recruit members that are corrupt but controllable, in the hopes that a righteous cause to fight for will encourage them away from evil.

Individual Lens Makers balance their public activities with their secret ones. As spies, agents, and infiltrators, they provide the Society with hard data. As confidants, secretaries, and community leaders, they feel out the pulse of the populace. Adventurers and mercenaries are also trained and employed by the Society, both as muscle and in deference to those situations when problems arise in a community that can only be solved through violence, especially those cases where a seemingly benevolent leader proves to be a secret shapeshifter or spellcaster.

As a whole, the Society is lead and controlled at the local level, with an individual Master Maker presiding over a Chapter, with Journeymen and Apprentices arrayed under him or her. Less settled Lens Makers are sometimes jokingly referred to as Peddlers or Glaziers, though these titles are frowned upon by the higher ranks. Once a year, the various Master Makers in a region assemble to discuss overall trends and share information, which is then distributed as it needs to be known through the organization.

Common Tasks: Settled Lens Makers are given many tasks and opportunities by the organization, which might arrange for anything from volunteer work to espionage. Burglaries, blackmail, and intelligence gathering are common requests, which are all aided by the Society’s common training in the art of disguise. These members tend to have public identities that are valued as assets to the organization.

Which is why the travelers get all the hatchet jobs.

A traveling Lens Maker may be contacted by messenger or magic and asked to come to a specific city to help with a problem. Particularly difficult burglaries, strong-arm blackmail, and assassination are all distinct possibilities. Sometimes there’s just a monster that needs putting down and none of the locals have the prowess for it, but this last situation is fairly rare. Travelers are called upon for the wet work because they have nothing to lose by being outed in the community, where established members may have connections, families, and businesses placed at risk if they get caught.

Available Services: The Lens Maker Society knows that they ask difficult and dangerous work of its members, and they compensate accordingly. At its most basic level, this takes the form of access to specialized resources like custom-made weapons (disguised as ordinary objects), spellcasting, and common magical items such as potions or scrolls. As a member becomes more trusted and valued, the Society opens to them, offering allies, contacts, hidden knowledge, access to potent magical items and weapons, and more. Trusted members, usually at Journeyman status, are furnished with a pair of earrings that the Master Makers use to contact them, though this requires that the Master Maker in question know the wearer’s name.

[Snowbluff]

I've had a thought. As a new thing for traditions, how about an option to alter or add strikes by being a tradition? For example, a tradition that gives Veiled Moon may add an AC penalty to Cursed Fate, or add a new maneuver that does something similiar (maybe 1/maneuver level, one for each odd maneuver level). That way, it gives a little more flavor to a unique tradition of that school, and may give a bonus (in addition to other benefits) to a class that already has that school.

[PsyBomb]

I've had a thought. As a new thing for traditions, how about an option to alter or add strikes by being a tradition? For example, a tradition that gives Veiled Moon may add an AC penalty to Cursed Fate, or add a new maneuver that does something similiar (maybe 1/maneuver level, one for each odd maneuver level). That way, it gives a little more flavor to a unique tradition of that school, and may give a bonus (in addition to other benefits) to a class that already has that school.

Thing about this is that the Traditions already give massive bonuses, to the point that they are near-mandatory if you can possibly follow the Oath. This is true even if you don't need the Tradition for discipline access.

Just for an example, I stated in another thread that I'm building a young Fa Zhou (Mulan's father from the Disney movie). He is a Bushi Warder with the Zweihander Sentinel archetype (two-handing his Katana). Despite not needing the tradition for Iron Tortoise access, I took it due to fitting thematically, and also giving good skill bonuses and a possibly crucial +2 Fortitude from a bonus type that is very uncommon for saves and so will likely stack with almost everything.

Really, this is true for every tradition out there. The worst one for straight bonuses is likely the Black Thorn Knights, which STILL gives significant bonuses against about a third of all enemies you are likely to face. The Lens-Makers are useful even if you AREN'T sneaking around, though if you're dungeoncrashing then they are probably the worst one to be in overall. The best, if you can get away with following the Oath, is probably the Bloody Fangs (stopping Regeneration and ignoring DR from 90% of the enemies you are likely to face over the course of your career is MASSIVE).

Oh, one other thing. The skill bonus to Search on the Lens-Makers should be to Perception, since Search isn't a skill anymore. A +2 to THAT skill is worth joining a Society by itself.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Traditions. They enable a lot of builds, concepts, and combinations that would not otherwise be possible. Adding even more bonuses to them, though, is not a good idea.

[Lord_Gareth]

Oh, one other thing. The skill bonus to Search on the Lens-Makers should be to Perception, since Search isn't a skill anymore. A +2 to THAT skill is worth joining a Society by itself.

Edited in my doc now; Perception bonus applies to finding hidden doors, compartments, and traps.

[Lord_Gareth]

Thing about this is that the Traditions already give massive bonuses, to the point that they are near-mandatory if you can possibly follow the Oath. This is true even if you don't need the Tradition for discipline access.

Just for an example, I stated in another thread that I'm building a young Fa Zhou (Mulan's father from the Disney movie). He is a Bushi Warder with the Zweihander Sentinel archetype (two-handing his Katana). Despite not needing the tradition for Iron Tortoise access, I took it due to fitting thematically, and also giving good skill bonuses and a possibly crucial +2 Fortitude from a bonus type that is very uncommon for saves and so will likely stack with almost everything.

Really, this is true for every tradition out there. The worst one for straight bonuses is likely the Black Thorn Knights, which STILL gives significant bonuses against about a third of all enemies you are likely to face. The Lens-Makers are useful even if you AREN'T sneaking around, though if you're dungeoncrashing then they are probably the worst one to be in overall. The best, if you can get away with following the Oath, is probably the Bloody Fangs (stopping Regeneration and ignoring DR from 90% of the enemies you are likely to face over the course of your career is MASSIVE).

Don't get me wrong, I love the Traditions. They enable a lot of builds, concepts, and combinations that would not otherwise be possible. Adding even more bonuses to them, though, is not a good idea.

Apologies for the double post, but can you elaborate on this? Do you feel like it'll be problematic at the table or in terms of encounter balance?

[Snowbluff]

How about in place of new school access, so if you already have the school you get something unique. I'm not particularly concerned about the power level, since they are already strong. Of course, this may be problematic if you take the same school twice via 2 separate traditions...

[DarkSonic1337]

Eagerly awaiting a Shattered Mirror or Mithral Current tradition so I can have both on the same character :p

[Lord_Gareth]

Eagerly awaiting a Shattered Mirror or Mithral Current tradition so I can have both on the same character :p

Psst - check the spoiler block a little ways up the page.

[PsyBomb]

Apologies for the double post, but can you elaborate on this? Do you feel like it'll be problematic at the table or in terms of encounter balance?

It isn't problematic for balance, that wasn't what I was trying to say. The thing is that they are effectively free bonuses, which makes them mandatory if you are actively trying to tune your character's potential up. My tables play with RP restrictions enforced, which balances the stronger ones out, but given that we like to push the envelope a bit (not Tippy level, but we usually shoot for a very high T3) it becomes this.

I will be playing a TN Bloody Fang soon in a nature-themed short series, will provide more feedback then.

[Snowbluff]

I want to hear about the Quill (?). It sounds jazzy as heck. However, I am concerned about using the curse schooled versus having Veiled Moon curses on my Warlord.

[DarkSonic1337]

Psst - check the spoiler block a little ways up the page.

OMG sweet. Mithril Current, Shattered Mirror Harbringer here I come!

Though a Shattered Mirror, Mithril Current Bushi would probably better for the type of character I have in mind. Will probably just whip a tradition up and ask my DM.

Hmm, is there a way to switch stances more than once in a turn? (immediate action switches, switches as part of other actions, ect, ect). I basically want to be able to switch to an offensive stance on my turn, and then switch to Cursed Mirror stance before my opponents can attack me.

[Shinken]

Apologies for the double post, but can you elaborate on this? Do you feel like it'll be problematic at the table or in terms of encounter balance?

I think he means there is no reason not to join a tradition, so from a pure optimization point of view, everyone should be in one, specially since the oaths are intentionally not very restrictive.
I think it's fine. It's more or less the same as the organizations from 3.5 and organizations scaled as you leveled up. Yet, you hardly ever see them around, since it's from an obscure source.

[Milo v3]

Is there any way for a character to use an alternate skill for a discipline?