OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

[Gift Jeraff]

From now on, if one member of the team is being eaten, go ahead and assume you should do something about that.

That's exactly how Durkon died. It's like poetry.

[DaggerPen]

From now on, if one member of the team is being eaten, go ahead and assume you should do something about that.

That's exactly how Durkon died. It's like poetry.

Belkar? D'ye need help, lad? Or are ye good?
Nunhn.
"No"? Was that' a "No, I'm good," or a "No, I need help"? Are ye still think'n it over?
Nunhn.
Wait, was that a "No, I'm thinkin' it ov'r," or was it a "No, I need help," or a "No, I'm good"?

[Bird]

I'd say that villains need not be relatable, but more often than not, they should be human. You can have a Xykon or a Joker here or there to great effect, but to have most villains should have some redeeming trait or self-doubt or understandable motive or something, both to make them more compelling and to preserve the horror factor when you get a villain who's just a complete monster.

(Not that you're implying otherwise, it just got me thinking.)

The reason it's important for villains to be recognizably human is that they force us to consider the nature of humanity, and the worse parts of ourselves. A boogeyman or a demon can be threatening and used to great effect in a story, but doesn't cause the same existential unease that a Redcloak or a Magneto or a Humbert Humbert does. If we sort of like Humbert Humbert, and cannot deny that he's recognizably human, he forces us to examine our own morality. Xykon does not.

On a related point, the villain-who-is-a-person satisfies the desire psychological complexity in literature, because she or he is complex. By contrast, a villain like Joker or Mephistopheles is effective because he brings out complex behavior in Batman or Faust. And villains like Cthulhu and the wolf in Little Red Riding Hood stand in for a general malevolence in the universe as much or more so than they operate as characters in their own rights.

[To qualify the above: I do not deny complete monsters like Xykon can have their own charm (I love the character), and can force readers to think in their own way.]

[Faltenin]

Maybe Durkon sees connections everywhere, but HPOH knows that correlation does not imply causality and will not come to conclusions based on one single piece of second-hand anecdotal evidence?

(or maybe I'm reading too much into this webcomic )

[Faltenin]

BTW, nice second name, Durkon!

For the non-science geeks out there, "allotrope" means that an element can exist in two (or more) different forms, like carbon can be black graphite or shiny diamond....

or you know, Durkon can be both a cleric of Thor and the HPOH... nice prophetic name ye gave me, Mama!

[Killer Angel]

Allotrope got a plan!!!

[Gnoman]

Indeed. She mentioned "Pension Day", after all.

What I was trying to say was that "finding a few coppers" to pay for the bowls may well have been less a statement based on poverty than it was a reallocation of a fixed resource that she would have to take from something else.

[ti'esar]

I've been trying and trying to come up with something to say that someone hasn't already said, so I think I'll just give up and say I really liked this one.

And I really hope that, if this is the end of a chapter, we're in for a cutaway to Team Evil next strip.

[Adventurer]

Holy wisdom modifier batman!

No really tthough. Durkula doesnt have high wisdom apparently. Durkon on the other hand...

...Durkon on the other hand acted like he had a negative wisdom modifier in the toad monster battle. I mean, your friend is obviously been eaten by a monster and you let him be eaten because he didn't ask for help? Even Elan wouldn't be that stupid, especially based on something his mother had told him when he was just a child... to which he still hanged on to in the most literal sense. It's like he never matured even a little bit since then... was there never a situation in his life where he needed to help someone without that someone telling him to do so, in all those decades after the first memory? Heck, his own mother helped that dwarf who fell off the ladder in #947 without him asking for help, if it was Durkon in her place (and age) he would have let him die thanks to that reasoning. Just like Roy could easily have died from that toad monster. Seriously, there is a line between being considerate as to when you should help someone and to being utterly irresponsible and mindnumbingly stupid.

[hamishspence]

Given that Roy was now inside the creature's mouth - any whacks to the creature's head risk damaging Roy as well. Still, Durkon could have gone for somewhere else on the creature.

Not helping people in the middle of a fight can have a number of reasons. For example:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...BeKillstealing

[Varthonai]

That's more than neat, it's critically important. Durkon has been part of the order for a long time. Durkula won't tip off Roy by helping a party member. What would tip off Roy is if Durkula out thinks himself and steps in to do good for some third party they've never met before...without asking.



The vampire, an inherently evil and, more importantly here, not lawful being, missed out on the concept of respecting the rights and individuality of others. It's a subtle thing, but the point is that in trying to masquerade as being good, he's going to mess up in a way that Is indicative that he isn't Durkon.

It's not about the vampire missing out on the true nature of Good, or of respecting the rights and individuality of others. What the vampire doesn't understand is character development--i.e., the ability of living beings to have experiences that change them.

This is a consistent theme in the comic--immortality stops your character from developing, because being confronted with your mortality is what forces you to think about your legacy and your impact on the world. Right-Eye accused Redcloak of not having ever matured since he first put on the Crimson Mantle. Xykon has been unable to develop interest in any new activities since he became a lich, leaving him with no possible recourse for pleasure but sadism (since his non-violent interests like terrible coffee are now denied to him). Tsukiko discovered the hard way that wights, despite being intelligent undead, are not capable of learning real affection. The spirits in Celestia assume forms that reflect their inner selves upon death and remain static in them forever (e.g. baby Eric Greenhilt, young and promiscuous Sara Greenhilt, curmudgeonly old Eugene Greenhilt, powerful warrior Horace Greenhilt). The personality of everyone who is immortal is frozen*, but everyone who is living and mortal has the capacity to change--even seemingly incorrigible and unrepentant murderers like Belkar.

And appropriately enough, Belkar has already accused Durkula of not understanding how character development works. What Durkon has realized is that Durkula doesn't merely have a poor grasp of character development, he literally cannot fathom it due to his very nature. So I don't think it's jumping the gun at all to call this a Fatal Flaw. It ties in with too many of the story's other themes. I know I wouldn't be able to resist if I was writing it.

Whatever happens to bring about Durkula's undoing though, it won't happen soon enough to save his homeland from destruction.


*though there have been some exceptions! Redcloak experienced character development when he decided to stop throwing away hobgoblin lives based on a childhood grudge. Malack presumably experienced character development when he formed a sincere bond of friendship with Tarquin. Sabine has formed an apparently genuine and enduring love for Nale. Unclear whether these apparent inconsistencies are deliberate or not on the Giant's part.

[Judge_Worm]

I don't think the bit with Roy and the toad ever happened, I think Durkon's feeding HPoH false information.

[ti'esar]

Not helping people in the middle of a fight can have a number of reasons. For example:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...BeKillstealing

That's not exactly a Lawful Good line of reasoning, though.

[Turgon]

I am really enjoying the flashbacks to Durkon's past.

And Durkon finally glimpses a silver lining in his predicament!

Thanks for your work, Giant.

[GooeyChewie]

Hehe. His middle name is "all a trope."

[theNater]

...Durkon on the other hand acted like he had a negative wisdom modifier in the toad monster battle. I mean, your friend is obviously been eaten by a monster and you let him be eaten because he didn't ask for help?

You never know; getting eaten might have been part of Roy's plan. Remember the arena fight against Thog? Somebody jumps in there and pulls Roy out of Thog's way, the pillars don't get smashed.

Roy is a crazy man, despite all the sensible talk and planning he does. It's one of the things I love about him.

It's not about the vampire missing out on the true nature of Good, or of respecting the rights and individuality of others. What the vampire doesn't understand is character development--i.e., the ability of living beings to have experiences that change them.

This is a consistent theme in the comic--immortality stops your character from developing, because being confronted with your mortality is what forces you to think about your legacy and your impact on the world.

I suspect that in Durkula's case, it's actually the opposite. He doesn't understand growth because he's never done it, rather than having stopped. Remember, he was created mere days ago. His only experience with how people learn and grow is what he's absorbed from Durkon, and he's still in the earliest stages of that.

[gerryq]

HPoH seemingly can't determine the emotional connection between Durkon's memories. To hazard a guess, I'd say Durkon plans on giving incorrect information to his bloodsucking parasite by playing off of this.

Or he plans on being as obnoxious as possible to the HPoH. Either way, it's going to be great.

My take is that Durkon has realised that the vampire spirit has no understanding of human motivation, and he can use this to mislead it. [Think of the Sandestins used by magicians in Jack Vance's books. They are powerful spirits but they take all instructions literally.]

Of course, the story also suggests that Durkon himself is not the ideal person to be trying to play such games! But at least he has figured out that there are connections to figure out, and that the spirit won't get it.

[Lheticus]

This is intriguing indeed! I won't waste breath speculating on what plan Durkon is brewing against Darkon, but I can't wait to find out. ^_^

[stsasser]

Durkula has Aspergers?

[Neoriceisgood]

Really looking forward to whatever Durkon's planning to do next.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't think the bit with Roy and the toad ever happened, I think Durkon's feeding HPoH false information.

Again, I doubt it because if Durkon could feed the High Priest of Hel false information he would have done so earlier and done something to reveal himself.

[SaintRidley]

From now on, if one member of the team is being eaten, go ahead and assume you should do something about that.

That's exactly how Durkon died. It's like poetry.

Roy killed Durkon. Just what would the Deva say now?


Kidding.

[Shining Wrath]

Durkon has spotted the HPOH's weakness: evil spirits birthed in the halls of Hel herself don't have good Insight skills. At all. Evil dude doesn't understand what it is to be a living creature that grows and matures and feeds one experience into another.

Not certain how Durkon will use this realization, but he seems to have an idea.

[elros]

I really enjoyed the update:
1) it give insight into Durkon's nature, and I always appreciate the character development in this webcomic:
2) it explains how a Tier 1 character has been so ineffective so far- he just doesn't step up and use his powers to their fullest. His greatest combat moment happened when Roy created the plan. When he is alone he can be an effective caster, come up with effective combat tactics, and figure out how to exploit enemies's weaknesses.
3) it shows that Durkon can use this time time to be introspective and learn things about himself. That will not only help him trick the HPoH, but it turns his condition into a chance for self improvement, and not just a hopeless imprisonment.
4) it shows that the Giant is ready move on and show other parts of the story, which I'm eager to see.

[DanaK]

Durkula has Aspergers?

Just because he's blind to normal mortal social behaviors doesn't mean that's what it is. He's an evil spirit forced into a mortal body, fumbling his way through each day.
He's not human, he's not even a dwarf.

[Jay R]

I'm wondering if the title refers both to Durkon's struggles with the High Priest of Hel and Roy's struggles with the monster.

Also the internal struggle Durkon has had between wanting to help and obeying his mother not to help without permission.

So Durkula can't evolve as a person? That's what I'm getting, considering he didn't pick up on how two events caused Durkon to change.

No, the high priest can't understand how people evolve. Not the same thing at all. The fact that Durkon's accent slipped in when he wasn't trying to fool anybody shows that some degree of evolution can and will happen.

When you add the fact that by attempting to pretend to be a better teammate and not a psychopath, Belkar has actually become a better teammate and less of a psychopath without Belkar noticing, and that this has been a major theme for the last story arc, it suggests that maybe attempting to be Durkon will affect the high priest's character without the high priest noticing.

[LuisDantas]

It's odd that Durkula can't make obvious logical connections between the two events though

I believe we are meant to take that as evidence that the vampire's dark soul, being a construct from Hel's realm, has unusual thought patterns.

He lacks the ability to care about making harm to others, and with that comes the lack of ability to fully grasp certain human motivations and taboos.

[Jay R]

I believe we are meant to take that as evidence that the vampire's dark soul, being a construct from Hel's realm, has unusual thought patterns.

He lacks the ability to care about making harm to others, and with that comes the lack of ability to fully grasp certain human motivations and taboos.

It's worth remembering that he has existed for only a few days. How could he possibly understand long-term growth?

[LuisDantas]

Also, we have his middle name, I think that's a first.

I think so as well. I wonder if this will connect with Redcloak's chemical elementals in some way.

What's the smokey thing in the last panel?

The Mechane's exaust fumes.

This looks good. What the heck does Durkon think is so good, though?

The obviously short reach of the Vampire's ability to empathise. It may be used to fool him and to make him expose himself.

HPoH seemingly can't determine the emotional connection between Durkon's memories. To hazard a guess, I'd say Durkon plans on giving incorrect information to his bloodsucking parasite by playing off of this.

Right now I would guess that he will build a false memory - or simply lie to the Vampire - stating that he and Roy came to an understanding about how much initiative he is supposed to have, using a justification that will jump to Roy and the others as obviously false. For instance, "Roy asked me not to interfere unless he is being literally eaten, because he needs to raise the most possible XP alone in order to enact blood vengeance on his father". With any luck, such a lie could end up being stated by the Vampire and all but ensure the realization of his control over Durkon's body.

I don't get the emphasis on something in the last panel

It is to show that Durkon has a very different "something" in mind.

[Incom]

*though there have been some exceptions! Redcloak experienced character development when he decided to stop throwing away hobgoblin lives based on a childhood grudge. Malack presumably experienced character development when he formed a sincere bond of friendship with Tarquin. Sabine has formed an apparently genuine and enduring love for Nale. Unclear whether these apparent inconsistencies are deliberate or not on the Giant's part.

Interestingly, at least in the first case, Redcloak was confronted with someone else's mortality. It's likely that Malack and Sabine also learned loyalty from Tarquin and Nale, respectively, though presumably through means that didn't result in anyone dying (could have saved them from violent ends though).