OOTS #963 - The Discussion Thread

[Porthos]

Perhaps 'angry' was not the right word I was looking. So, I will concede on that point.

Still, out of the things she could have said, out of all the things that could go wrong, she chooses to remind Durkon that she not helpless over other, more reasonable, warnings. I still say that's significant.

Perhaps I was too sarcastic in my prior post*, so let me tell you why I think that Sigdi was being an EXCELLENT parent.

* On second thought, nope.

In a moment of stress and losing-cool, she immediately turned to comforting Durkon and reassuring him.

That some may agree or disagree with the wisdom imparted is really neither here nor there, as that's a matter of personal taste. She wasn't thinking of herself when she bent down to Durkon. She was making sure that her son knew that things weren't really that bad.

That is, again, excellent parenting.

That Durkon is so blessedly Lawful that he might have taken that advice to an unhealhty degree is, I would wager, on Durkon not Sigdi.

Sorry, but not only do I fail to see the example of bad parenting here, I think it is the absolute and complete opposite. Hence my sarcastic post prior.

Now when it comes to her saying "I'm not helpless" I think we're really entering the realm of nitpicking here. Especially as by that point, Durkon was literally grabbing them out of her hands. There simply isn't time to construct a 'reasonable warning'.

Besides, I fail to see what is so wrong about that sentence in the first place. While trying to stay out of Real Life discussion, I think, and I can say this from some second hand personal experience, that having a healthy ego is pretty darn important to a person in Sigdi's situation.

Saying that she's not helpless is in fact probably a positive from where I am sitting, not a negative. If only for self-confidence reasons.

Still, as I said, she pivoted extremely quickly from a inward comment (I'm not helpless) toward an outward one (It's all right, you just wanted to help). If we're gonna get into analyzing character I'd say that says a heck of a lot more about her than anything else.

[Timy]

It seems that the memory of Roy being swallowed is not in the same continuity than the rest.

Otherwise, why Roy-being-swallowed would have his belt of giant strength and not in other panels ?

OR it means that memory is a fun thing and things can be altered (consciously or not) which could mean that Durkon is able to make FALSE memories !

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It seems that the memory of Roy being swallowed is not in the same continuity than the rest.

Otherwise, why Roy-being-swallowed would have his belt of giant strength and not in other panels ?

OR it means that memory is a fun thing and things can be altered (consciously or not) which could mean that Durkon is able to make FALSE memories !

Or it's an art error and doesn't undermine the message of the rest of the strip.

[theNater]

Whatever Durkon does, and however Durkon says, it will be explained either as normal character development or due to his change of status.

There are a few things Durkula could do that would, at the very least, require a great deal of explaining. Worshipping Hel, rather than simply going non-theistic, or ceasing to enjoy Parcheesi, for example.

Large segments of the forum readership did reach that conclusion.

That conclusion was not supported by evidence at that time, and the Order has not gained significant evidence since.

I have to agree the plot is being bogged down. Over the last 20 strips we have gotten an unusual proportion of strips in which only two characters are having dialogue unless you count the flashback device. The flashbacks seem pretty detached not only from the external events but also from each other without a plot (either internal to the flashbacks or a connection to the greater story) to tie them together.

Even if we count the flashbacks as part of a conversation between Durkon and Durkula, that brings the total to 5 of the last 20 being a two-character dialogue only. I am not convinced that is unusually high; what's the overall proportion of such strips?

I'm also not sure why you think the flashbacks aren't connected to the greater story. If nothing else, the party is headed in the general direction of dwarven lands, where most of the people in the flashbacks dwell. I strongly suspect we'll be seeing some of the characters we're meeting through the flashbacks in the present.

It reached the point where Durkon just stood there while another person was about to be eaten alive.

Have you met Roy? This guy. Right here. Y'know, him. And again. Plus one.

Dude would absolutely get eaten alive on purpose if he believed there was a tactical advantage to it.

Instead, in her anger, she screams that she's not helpless. Those are the first words that come out of her mouth...

That is, as Keltest has pointed out, not true. You are pretty heavily editing events in an attempt to make them fit your desired narrative. The Giant has a good narrative going; why not try to follow it, instead?

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Great character piece, but am I the only one thinking this strip should probably have been later in this particular arc? It seems like Durkon's setting Durkula up for a mistake which will reveal him, but we're going to have to wait a very long time for that to happen.

As for setting Dukula up with little things, if Durkon tries it, sooner or later Durkula will realise what's going on - likely long before anyone in the Order does.

[Keltest]

Great character piece, but am I the only one thinking this strip should probably have been later in this particular arc? It seems like Durkon's setting Durkula up for a mistake which will reveal him, but we're going to have to wait a very long time for that to happen.

As for setting Dukula up with little things, if Durkon tries it, sooner or later Durkula will realise what's going on - likely long before anyone in the Order does.

If the HPoH understood any mistakes that Durkon was tricking him into making, he wouldn't need Durkon's input and memories to pretend to be him at all.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

If the HPoH understood any mistakes that Durkon was tricking him into making, he wouldn't need Durkon's input and memories to pretend to be him at all.

It's not the mastakes Durkon tricks him into making, it's other people's responses to those mistakes alerting Durkula to them. That's the issue.

IMO, Durkon basically needs to string Durkula along until he can bring the hammer down on him in one massive event that leaves the Order in no doubt as to what's going on, and what they need to do about it - not create a little string of minor things that add up which the people may or may not notice, and if they do, Durkula's now tipped off, can potentially cover it up, and still has Durkon's soul to do unpleasant things to in retribution.

[AyuVince]

This is a consistent theme in the comic--immortality stops your character from developing, because being confronted with your mortality is what forces you to think about your legacy and your impact on the world. Right-Eye accused Redcloak of not having ever matured since he first put on the Crimson Mantle. Xykon has been unable to develop interest in any new activities since he became a lich, leaving him with no possible recourse for pleasure but sadism (since his non-violent interests like terrible coffee are now denied to him). Tsukiko discovered the hard way that wights, despite being intelligent undead, are not capable of learning real affection. The spirits in Celestia assume forms that reflect their inner selves upon death and remain static in them forever (e.g. baby Eric Greenhilt, young and promiscuous Sara Greenhilt, curmudgeonly old Eugene Greenhilt, powerful warrior Horace Greenhilt). The personality of everyone who is immortal is frozen*, but everyone who is living and mortal has the capacity to change--even seemingly incorrigible and unrepentant murderers like Belkar.

That's an amazing analysis! I think most readers (at least myself) have not made that connection. In fact, if this knowledge is the key to defeating Durkula, it might also help against the other immortal villains you have mentioned.

[Jay R]

Great character piece, but am I the only one thinking this strip should probably have been later in this particular arc?

Since I don't know what's coming next, and the author does, there is no way I could know where this should go as well as the author does.

I understand the desire to critique a literary work, but I have to read it first, just as I can't tell if a splotch of red is in the wrong place on a painting currently being painted.

[tiercel]

Nice to see Durkon pulling a Granny Weatherwax on his vampiric controller here ;) (But then, this tends to happen any time you listen to someone's accent for too long, especially from *inside their own head*.)

The tables begin to turn....

[Snails]

I like Varthonai's analysis, too, but Roy's Archon strongly implies that people can change in the afterlife, but it is a very slow process. Unless the Snarl rampages through the afterworlds or Thor is killed by Hel, time does not seem to be much of a concern.

[Snails]

Great character piece, but am I the only one thinking this strip should probably have been later in this particular arc? It seems like Durkon's setting Durkula up for a mistake which will reveal him, but we're going to have to wait a very long time for that to happen.

The last strip hinted at the potential for Durkon to game the HPoH. This strip proves as much, and, equally important, Durkon's explicitly realizes the possibility.

But it is a waiting game for Durkon. Durkon cannot force the issue.

As you said, he does not want to trip up the HPoH on a bunch of minor issues. My guess is he wants to be ready for a minor trip up that sends the HPoH running for info, and deliver info that will be horrifically misinterpreted by an inhuman being.

[Mith]

Nice to see Durkon pulling a Granny Weatherwax on his vampiric controller here ;)

Which book are you thinking of here? Lords and Ladies?

[Happy Gravity]

Which book are you thinking of here? Lords and Ladies?

Carpe Jugulum.

[BrotherMirtillo]

Nice to see Durkon pulling a Granny Weatherwax on his vampiric controller here ;) (But then, this tends to happen any time you listen to someone's accent for too long, especially from *inside their own head*.)

Which book are you thinking of here? Lords and Ladies?

Probably any of the books with Borrowing would work. I haven't read Carpe Jugulum, but I've read Lords and Ladies, Equal Rites, and Hat Full of Sky, and they'd all work for that new-body-altering-the-mind relationship. (Actually, so would Thief of Time. Pratchett seems to be fond of that dynamic.)

And now, I'm picturing Thor doing Durkon a favor by hanging a sign on the vampire cleric's back: "I ATEN'T DEAD."

[DaggerPen]

So I just crunched some numbers, and honestly, this past sequence really isn't that slow. We spent 16 updates mostly inside Durkon's head or on the Mechane, compared to the 11 updates Book 2 spent with the Order piddling around in some podunk town before even getting a hint of the Starmetal quest, the 21 Book 3 spent before they even got to Sunken Valley, the 15 Book 4 spent just in Roy's afterlife, and the whopping 25 Book 5 spent with the OOTS searching for Girard's Gate, only to find that it wasn't even there.

Mind you, you're under no obligation to like this plotline, but as book openings go, we're fairly standard here.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Since I don't know what's coming next, and the author does, there is no way I could know where this should go as well as the author does.

I understand the desire to critique a literary work, but I have to read it first, just as I can't tell if a splotch of red is in the wrong place on a painting currently being painted.

I don't know what's coming next (although I know I'll enjoy it), but I'm fairly sure that after setting up Durkon to become a vampire since pretty much the start of the comic, and bringing Hel in as another side, The Giant's not going to waste all that by having the Order discover what's going on with Durkon, beat Durkula out of him and resurrect him in the next 5-10 strips.

In fact, I'm not totally convinced Durkula will be gone by the end of this book.

But by bringing this up now, right near the start of the Durkula arc, we're now all waiting for Durkon to force Durkula into a slip very soon, and by the time it actually happens, we'll have forgotten about this strip (we're probably looking at something like 2016 at the earliest), so it'll be a little jarring, rather than having everyone thinking "oh yes, finally Durkon's plan pays off...".

Where as, had it come up, say halfway through the strips for book 6, when it seems that Durkula's got full control, we get a minor victory that gives hope, but also highlights the peril, and is a lot closer to the pay off.

But hey, The Giant's writing this, it's his story, he can tell it how he wants.

[ti'esar]

So I just crunched some numbers, and honestly, this past sequence really isn't that slow. We spent 16 updates mostly inside Durkon's head or on the Mechane, compared to the 11 updates Book 2 spent with the Order piddling around in some podunk town before even getting a hint of the Starmetal quest, the 21 Book 3 spent before they even got to Sunken Valley, the 15 Book 4 spent just in Roy's afterlife, and the whopping 25 Book 5 spent with the OOTS searching for Girard's Gate, only to find that it wasn't even there.

Mind you, you're under no obligation to like this plotline, but as book openings go, we're fairly standard here.

As has been said more than once, it's almost certainly the update speed skewing people's perceptions. Although looking at archived discussion threads, I know Sandsedge at least did seem to get a lot of "get on with it already" complaints of its own.

[Jay R]

But by bringing this up now, right near the start of the Durkula arc, we're now all waiting for Durkon to force Durkula into a slip very soon, and by the time it actually happens, we'll have forgotten about this strip (we're probably looking at something like 2016 at the earliest), so it'll be a little jarring, rather than having everyone thinking "oh yes, finally Durkon's plan pays off...".

Where as, had it come up, say halfway through the strips for book 6, when it seems that Durkula's got full control, we get a minor victory that gives hope, but also highlights the peril, and is a lot closer to the pay off.

But hey, The Giant's writing this, it's his story, he can tell it how he wants.

The story might be something very different than you expect. Durkon may try to use this in the next few strips, fail, and make things look more hopeless.

You can't decide what the right time to introduce this will be until after you know how and when it will be used.

[theNater]

It seems like Durkon's setting Durkula up for a mistake which will reveal him...

I can't agree with this assessment. Durkon is honest, almost to a fault, while Durkula is a creature literally created to deceive. For Durkon to attempt trickery would be pitting his weakness against the vampire's strength, which is not likely to end well. If Durkon's going to succeed, he needs to strike where Durkula is weak.

So where is Durkula weak? Well, this comic reveals that he can't understand the motivations behind behavior. Even when he's got it practically spelled out for him, he can't make those connections. Durkon, on the other hand, does know what makes people tick. He understands, and can use that understanding to provide guidance and advice. Indeed, this is one of the key duties of a Cleric.

Durkon's not going to trick Durkula, he's going to try to convert him. To transform him from an immoral worshipper of dishonor and death into some sort of decent person. And that has to start now, because

: People don't just change who they are inside in an instant....It takes time, so you don't even know you're changing. Until one day, you're just a little different than you used to be and you can't even tell what the hell happened.

That's why the somethin' is so interesting. It was just days ago that Durkula was calling Durkon's accent ridiculous, and today he doesn't even realize that it's becoming his own.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The story might be something very different than you expect. Durkon may try to use this in the next few strips, fail, and make things look more hopeless.

You can't decide what the right time to introduce this will be until after you know how and when it will be used.

I agree. If your going to find fault in the comic, find it once that part of the comic has played out, not in assumptions you are making. The course of the comic could be very different from what you expect.

[tiercel]

Probably any of the books with Borrowing would work. I haven't read Carpe Jugulum, but I've read Lords and Ladies, Equal Rites, and Hat Full of Sky, and they'd all work for that new-body-altering-the-mind relationship. (Actually, so would Thief of Time. Pratchett seems to be fond of that dynamic.)

And now, I'm picturing Thor doing Durkon a favor by hanging a sign on the vampire cleric's back: "I ATEN'T DEAD."

In particular, I was thinking about Carpe Jugulum, not just because of "headology" but specifically because

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when Granny gets turned into a vampire (?) she manages to turn the tables by having Borrowed her own blood, thus "I ain't been vampired. You've been Weatherwaxed," and the vampires find themselves taking on her traits, yearning for tea, for instance...

Compare to Durkon here and his satisfaction that he can make Durkula slip into his own accent, not as a matter of camouflage to the outside world, but as a private slip when mentally communicating with/interrogating Durkon: that Durkula is actually potentially starting to become "Durkoned."

Also compare to Harry Dresden of the Dresden Files and his own mental passenger, particularly because

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not only does Dresden manage to "corrupt"/alter the copy of Lasciel the Temptress that winds up in his head after picking up one of the Denarii, but winds up getting her to take a mental bullet for him at a pivotal moment

If anything, this is the famous Nietzsche quote, "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you," run in reverse; the idea that good can "corrupt" evil just as evil can corrupt good (if, presumably, with more difficulty).

[ORione]

Durkon's not going to trick Durkula, he's going to try to convert him. To transform him from an immoral worshipper of dishonor and death into some sort of decent person.

Huh. Now, that's an interesting theory.

[sabremeister]

Durkon is boring and so is his back story.

This fell to the level of pointless filler for me after the first one or two Durkon-Durkula interactions.

This is Durkon being made interesting. If you prefer a "boring" character, go ahead and ignore the strips inside Durkon's head. I, and everyone else who likes characters with depth in the stories they read, will pay attention to them, as this is exactly how a character is given depth - with a background that tells us his motivations and viewpoints, ideas and philosophies.

After having recently completed a complete read-through of the comic, I can say there are at most five strips that can accurately be described as pointless filler: Mailcall, Return of Mailcall, Intermission, and the In Memoriam strips for Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson. Everything else contributes to either the story development, or character development.

[brian 333]

Is it weird that I liked all five of those? I mean, come on, who doesn't love a good expose on the doily.

[LadyEowyn]

I'd say there's more than those 5 that are basically filler - the one-note gag strips, for example. Including a lot of stuff from Book 1. I don't think you can make much of an argument that the Order looking for a bathroom is plot-crucial.

However, I'm really enjoying the current book. Character-development-rich comics (along with some action) like the ones we've been getting are excellent. They're a long ways ahead of strips like the "cart of gophers" pun-humour from Sandsedge. (I like funny comics, but puns are generally the lowest common denominator of humour.) Sandsedge did have a good character moments with Haley, and an excellent one with V.

[Dracon1us]

the most interesting character in this arc is durkon mother...that highlights how much lame and forgettable is the priest of hela

[factotum]

Is it weird that I liked all five of those? I mean, come on, who doesn't love a good expose on the doily.

Contrary to what some people would have you believe, "Filler" isn't a synonym for "Any strip I didn't personally like". Filler can be entertaining so long as you take it as it is and don't expect massive story revelations or plot movement from it.

[Lheticus]

Contrary to what some people would have you believe, "Filler" isn't a synonym for "Any strip I didn't personally like". Filler can be entertaining so long as you take it as it is and don't expect massive story revelations or plot movement from it.

If a word, ie "filler", is used commonly to contextually mean "any strip I didn't like/thought was boring/etc," does that not mean that in terms of connotation, it IS in fact a synonym for that?

Isn't evolving language wonderful? XD

[Jay R]

If a word, ie "filler", is used commonly to contextually mean "any strip I didn't like/thought was boring/etc," does that not mean that in terms of connotation, it IS in fact a synonym for that?

That depends on how commonly it's used that way. Evolving language does not make it impossible to use language incorrectly. If most people start using the word that way, and its original meaning becomes lost or muddled, then it can eventually evolve to include that meaning. "Sophisticated", "gentleman", "pompous" and many other words have lost their original meanings and evolved to new ones. But as long as most people, and all professional writers, know that filler means material that fills gaps, rather than continuing the story, then using it as something else is a mistake, not a new definition.

Isn't evolving language wonderful? XD

Yes, it is. But it's also slower than some people realize.