So it happened, I am OP.

[JackRackham]

Well, if you need to do something other than hit-point damage, and you don't want to play a spellcaster, you are kind of stuck unless you look outside of pathfinder. There are an abundance of ways for a 3.5 fighter to do stuff other than hit-point damage, but I can't think of many in pathfinder.

He could maybe make a mediocre trip-build in PF? That might work. Less focus on HP damage, more party support, crowd control.

[eggynack]

Bards are banned.

Well, that's certainly not a thing I was expecting. Why would he ban bards? In any case, if you're sticking with this character, and can't change anyone else's character, then it might make sense to just give your existing fighter more of a tendency towards battlefield control. I don't know the exact best way to pull that off in pathfinder, but standard tripping can't be too far away from reasonable.

Alternatively, run away. Seriously, I read that other thread about ridiculous fiat-dependent rules, and now I'm looking at this one, with all of its ridiculousness, and if one of those things wasn't sufficient, then both probably is. It's just not a good situation where you are. I mean, there could be a morbid curiosity factor there, learning about how much stupider things can get, but it doesn't sound like you're having much fun.

[JackRackham]

They are too versatile and make every other class obsolete.

My DM views bards much like this forum views T1 casters.

Oh, wow. This guy needs a math class.

[Greenish]

They are too versatile and make every other class obsolete.

My DM views bards much like this forum views T1 casters.

That sounds like he's seen someone play a bard at least halfway competently, which would make them shine against, well, whatever your group is doing.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

They are too versatile and make every other class obsolete.

My DM views bards much like this forum views T1 casters.

I... I don't even. Not only it's the bard not capable of doubt everything (no trapfinding, limited spells and proficiencies), but inspire courage and the rest of the bard songs are amazing force multipliers! They work better with people, not without!

[EisenKreutzer]

Seems like this GM has some pretty weird ideas about what is overpowered and what needs fixing.

Maybe you should introduce him to the Tier system? Not because the Tiers are the be all, end all of measuring class power, but just to give him a different perspective on the relative power of the classes. It might open his eyes. Or it might not.

[Talakeal]

Well, that's certainly not a thing I was expecting. Why would he ban bards? In any case, if you're sticking with this character, and can't change anyone else's character, then it might make sense to just give your existing fighter more of a tendency towards battlefield control. I don't know the exact best way to pull that off in pathfinder, but standard tripping can't be too far away from reasonable.

Alternatively, run away. Seriously, I read that other thread about ridiculous fiat-dependent rules, and now I'm looking at this one, with all of its ridiculousness, and if one of those things wasn't sufficient, then both probably is. It's just not a good situation where you are. I mean, there could be a morbid curiosity factor there, learning about how much stupider things can get, but it doesn't sound like you're having much fun.

As I said in that thread, it isn't that the game is not fun. There are just all sorts of little quirks that make me scratch my head and get slightly annoyed, but overall I am still having fun.

Of course, a lot of said fun is that I deal 90% of the groups damage and get to feel like the big damn hero all the time, so...

[Psyren]

You can redo your fighter to be focused on control. Tripping, Dirty Tricks, grappling, anything.

You can also tone down your damage by focusing on sword-and-board style combat. It's weaker, sure, but you can still be effective and the party will appreciate you being a wall between them and the bad.

[Chaosvii7]

Bards are banned.

Okay, now this is my problem.

I think the only solution is to teach him how to play 3.5. Make him an account and tell him to redirect every single question here. He will get ironed out, easy.

[137beth]

He could maybe make a mediocre trip-build in PF? That might work. Less focus on HP damage, more party support, crowd control.

In pathfinder improved trip was split into two feats, so it is a bit harder to do well without planning for it from level 1. Also, all flying creatures are automatically immune to tripping, so it is much weaker than in 3.5.
Then again, doing something well isn't really the goal here, so maybe a trip build would work.

[Talakeal]

Seems like this GM has some pretty weird ideas about what is overpowered and what needs fixing.

Maybe you should introduce him to the Tier system? Not because the Tiers are the be all, end all of measuring class power, but just to give him a different perspective on the relative power of the classes. It might open his eyes. Or it might not.

I tried explaining it to him, he dismissed it and said he would just hand waive it away with FIAT.

I found his solution to the DMM cleric especially interesting. Have the cleric's superior confiscate all of their night sticks and similar items. If the cleric refuses they are now branded a CE heretic and every paladin and good cleric in the world will kill them on sight.

[Greenish]

I... I don't even. Not only it's the bard not capable of doubt everything (no trapfinding, limited spells and proficiencies),

Anyone can find traps in PF, even ignoring the Archeologist archetype, and bard's limitations are a non-issue at the levels of power that group seems to play. (To stress the point, in the OP the OP talks about how his deliberately toned-down fighter is OP.)

[Tommy2255]

I tried explaining it to him, he dismissed it and said he would just hand waive it away with FIAT.

I found his solution to the DMM cleric especially interesting. Have the cleric's superior confiscate all of their night sticks and similar items. If the cleric refuses they are now branded a CE heretic and every paladin and good cleric in the world will kill them on sight.

...what? That's completely insane. Did he even give a reason why it would be considered heretical? Or why he would abuse the already flimsy alignment system just to **** you over? Why are you still playing with this person?

[Squark]

Well, as long as you're having fun, no reason to stop playing, but... That statement might be a bit of a sign of things to come.

[Blackhawk748]

Human Fighter 4
16 Str, 16 Cha, 16 Wis, 16 Con, 12 Dex, 11 Int
Masterwork Greatsword, Hand Crossbow, Tower Shield, Banded Mail +1
Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialty, Iron Will, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack.

Dude, your build is................ im not sure what to call it. You do nice consistent damage, you shored up your Will save a bit, you get extra AOs and you have Power Attack which is pretty much standard for TH Fighter.

And by the Nine Hells you are wearing BANDED MAIL, seriously am I the only one that noticed that?? Unless PF changed its stats, its pretty lousy. Though i gotta say, nice rolls there, you have a very happy fighter.

The only way to "nerf" your "op" fighter is to take away WF, WS, and Power Attack, and i have absolutely no idea what to replace those with. Honestly i think your DM is hitting you guys with to low CR encounters, honestly a Shadow would wreck you personally, anything that flies would definitely hurt, though you might kill it eventually.

[EisenKreutzer]

I tried explaining it to him, he dismissed it and said he would just hand waive it away with FIAT.

I found his solution to the DMM cleric especially interesting. Have the cleric's superior confiscate all of their night sticks and similar items. If the cleric refuses they are now branded a CE heretic and every paladin and good cleric in the world will kill them on sight.

Thats... Thats certainly one way to do it..

Listen, I don't mean to be an ass, but your DM is terrible. He's seeing problems where there are none, his methods for dealing with game issues is horrible to say the least.
My guess is he's either not taken the time to read everything properly, or he's learned gaming from someone who had a less than stellar grasp on both the system and roleplaying games in general.

[Talakeal]

...what? That's completely insane. Did he even give a reason why it would be considered heretical? Or why he would abuse the already flimsy alignment system just to **** you over? Why are you still playing with this person?

Well, disobeying a direct order from a superior is chaotic. Not helping a high level cleric, who clearly is working towards the greater good, is evil. Pissing off s powerful cleric will get you excommunicated and therefore branded a heretic.

Honestly this sort of thing is jre humurous than frustrating to me, atleast when talking about it in the abstract.

[Blackhawk748]

On a side note, i know a guy who hates Bards, but he would never ban them. He just despises them. I was never sure why though. And while bards can be insanely versatile, they then suffer from Jack of All Trades-Master of None Syndrome.

[Bulhakov]

I'll repeat the advice stated earlier - work more towards versatility instead of pure damage.
Take some feats towards unarmed fighting and improvised weapons? Maybe focus on the bow more o


Another way is to look away from stats and go for roleplayed limitations. Maybe your character finds religion, gets philosophical or chooses to challenge/test himself and decides to take some kind of vow limiting his fighting options?
Some ideas for a good guy:
- no-killing of sentient enemies
- no dealing of lethal damage
- will never strike first against a sentient enemy, always attempting parley before violence or challenge someone to single combat

Some ideas for a tough/berserker guy:
- shields and helmets are for wusses
- will not wear armor for a month
- decides to kill all enemies with his bare hands

This might lead to dipping into Paladin or Barbarian in the future.

[Feint's End]

Well, disobeying a direct order from a superior is chaotic. Not helping a high level cleric, who clearly is working towards the greater good, is evil. Pissing off s powerful cleric will get you excommunicated and therefore branded a heretic.

Honestly this sort of thing is jre humurous than frustrating to me, atleast when talking about it in the abstract.

@point 2 first ... I kind of get you there. This stuff is so bad it's getting hilarious. In all honesty if I were in your spot then I'd see how far I can get that DM but that's maybe just my idea .

@point 1: So what if a dominated superior Paladin orders your Paladin to massacre innocent people who can't defend themselves and you refuse? Are you automatically fallen then?

I personally wouldn't play with somebody like this unless the person would be cooperative to change or at least discuss their ways.

[Tvtyrant]

On a side note, i know a guy who hates Bards, but he would never ban them. He just despises them. I was never sure why though. And while bards can be insanely versatile, they then suffer from Jack of All Trades-Master of None Syndrome.

Isn't that why everyone gets Bardic Knack and Jack of all Trades so they can play a Master of All Trades?

To the OP (which is hilarious with the title; yes you are an OP OP) my suggestion is that you focus on ineffective tactics. Disarming foes, sundering swords, back pedaling while shooting crossbow bolts, etc. If your character can not be challenged then you have the room to play for fun rather than just trying to kill your opponents.

[emeraldstreak]

I'll repeat the advice stated earlier - work more towards...

"Working towards" is appeasement, and appeasement is not always the best policy.

[Blackhawk748]

Isn't that why everyone gets Bardic Knack and Jack of all Trades so they can play a Master of All Trades?

Shhhh. Dont let him know that.

[Andezzar]

Monk, Witch, Magus, Cleric, Druid I think. The DM wants us to keep meta game knowledge to ourselves and we can't describe our characters to each other OOC.

Did Pathfinder nerf the cleric and druid to uselessness, or are the players of those classes not familiar with the power of these classes? I'm not familiar with the tier/power of witch and magus.

@DMM Cleric: while nightsticks surely boost such a cleric's power, such a build even works without a single one. persisted Divine Power alone lets the cleric outshine the fighter.

[emeraldstreak]

The Witch is a beast. The Magus can be pretty amazing too. There's no question OP's figher is the weakest class in general.

[Andezzar]

So the problem seems to lie with the players and the DM. So teach them (the DM as well as the other players), if that does not work, offer to DM and continue to try to teach them. If they still remain willfully ignorant of the game, look for a new group.

[Troacctid]

I mean, what's the difference between you and the iconic fighter? Slightly different ability scores, power atttack and iron will instead of two-weapon fighting and two-weapon defense, and that's it?

[Nihilarian]

The Witch is a beast. The Magus can be pretty amazing too. There's no question OP's figher is the weakest class in general.

There's a monk, too, so maybe not.

Anyway, I agree, go for a control build. Grab a polearm and trip everything.

Also, your DM sucks.

[Talakeal]

And by the Nine Hells you are wearing BANDED MAIL, seriously am I the only one that noticed that?? .

AFAIK we don't play with money or crafting and all of our gear comes from loot. The banded mail is the only magic armor we have yet found, and there has been no mundane full plate so far, which afaik is the only mundane armor that is better once you factor in the +1.

[Telonius]

AFAIK we don't play with money or crafting and all of our gear comes from loot. The banded mail is the only magic armor we have yet found, and there has been no mundane full plate so far, which afaik is the only mundane armor that is better once you factor in the +1.

...

AFAIK we don't play with money or crafting and all of our gear comes from loot.

...

AFAIK we don't play with money or crafting

...

we don't play with money

All right, the DM has just passed from "terrible" to "... okay, he's playing some sort of vaguely D&D-like game that is thoroughly unrecognizable to most people's D&D experiences." Whatever you're playing, it's going to get weirder from here on out.