So it happened, I am OP.

[Arbane]

Another approach to trolling the GM back: Goof around. I know you said you're stuck with whatever magic items you get from loot drops, but can you buy normal weapons? If so, try different strategies "until I find one that isn't OP". Dual-wield daggers. Try a whip. Use nothing but bull rushes for an entire fight. It'll give you something to do, show the other players some of the ombat options, and keep you from actually being effective overpowered.

[emeraldstreak]

I dont get it. I mean, I can understand weak monk, healbot druid, even underplayed magus.. but how can one play a Witch thats eclipsed by a nonoptimized fighter of all things

[Sith_Happens]

Talakeal said that the other players use their much more powerful classes suboptimally.

"Suboptimally" is a massive understatement. Talakeal is dealing 2d6+12 damage per round and somehow accounting for the majority of a six-man party's total damage. The only way this is possible is that he's the only one attacking in any shape or form in the first place.

The DM considers it metagaming to focus fire. His enemies randomly attack a different character every round.

[darksolitaire]

I dont get it. I mean, I can understand weak monk, healbot druid, even underplayed magus.. but how can one play a Witch thats eclipsed by a nonoptimized fighter of all things

Roll scores in order, get average physical stats and bad mental stats and don't cast spells. Effectively Rincewind from Discworld.

[Spore]

Consider switching your group. This can't be fun for you or the others...

[Edenbeast]

How can you have the Dodge feat with 12 Dex?

[Andezzar]

I would, again, draw attention to the fact that the players are, in the most, enjoying the game, and that the DM asked OP to tone it down instead of resorting in more heavy-handed or petty methods. He doesn't come across as a jerk as much as completely clueless but trying.

Yeah, nothing here is pointing to the DM being anything other than a decent guy who happens to have a weak understanding of the game. Let's not jump to unkind conclusions about jerk-ness.

I would not say that the DM is a jerk, but he does seem resistant to advice, and that is nearly as bad.

[OldTrees1]

I would not say that the DM is a jerk, but he does seem resistant to advice, and that is nearly as bad.

Not even close.
1) Review this thread and you will see the forum has been treating the DM as if the DM were a waste of space.
2) Most people are resistant to advice when their mound of skewed data appears contrary to that advise. (Remember the other players have been playing very suboptimally, thus the standard for "balance" for this group is "suboptimal") Yet this DM is willing to have a reasoned conversation with the OP.

In conclusion, the DM is better than your summary and this thread has treated him worse than your summary.

The solution to PC - DM communication problems and to uninformed DM problems is not to write off the DM as a jerk. Rather the answer is to improve the communication targeting the specific issue. When all the information is on the table, then the informed forum can give accurate advice on how to proceed.

[Nerdtothe3rd]

*Tosses two pennies into the thread*
Unfortunately, it seems your DM is very inexperienced and would rather "Roleplay" then actually do anything remotely based on the mechanics of the game. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, but then he invents rules on the fly to punish those he sees as trying to meta-game (Actually use the mechanics of the game)

I think you should probably find a new group or DM the group from now on till they come into their own. But barring that option.

Play your fighter how you feel. Isn't he tired of always having to carry the group through places? I mean if he is the one killing everything and everyone why does he need this group of whimps following him around chanting their silly little spells that aren't doing much?

He has the excuse of maybe letting them get ruffed up a bit. Use it for your character's enjoyment. Heck maybe being the d*ck will make them want to get better just to refute the claim that they are weak. Every battle just saunter around and beat up the baddies but don't kill them and then saunter off to a tree or wall or whatever and hold up your shield, announce you are fighting in total defense and roleplay it as him just enjoying the show of the party struggling. Play him as being superior to them and knowing it.

Trust me when I say, when you play with someone who plays as if they are better you want to make your character better to show them they are not.

Sometimes you need to lead them backward to the water.

[Squark]

I think the issue is that, to put it bluntly, this DM isn't using the right system. He needs to find a much faster, rules-lite system for the game he wants to run. D&D simply isn't designed to be played with that strict a player-character separation- How on earth did you figure out what the enhancement bonus on the banded mail was, unless he broke his own rule (or the rules don't apply to him)?

[georgie_leech]

*Tosses two pennies into the thread*
Unfortunately, it seems your DM is very inexperienced and would rather "Roleplay" then actually do anything remotely based on the mechanics of the game. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, but then he invents rules on the fly to punish those he sees as trying to meta-game (Actually use the mechanics of the game)

I think you should probably find a new group or DM the group from now on till they come into their own. But barring that option.

Play your fighter how you feel. Isn't he tired of always having to carry the group through places? I mean if he is the one killing everything and everyone why does he need this group of whimps following him around chanting their silly little spells that aren't doing much?

He has the excuse of maybe letting them get ruffed up a bit. Use it for your character's enjoyment. Heck maybe being the d*ck will make them want to get better just to refute the claim that they are weak. Every battle just saunter around and beat up the baddies but don't kill them and then saunter off to a tree or wall or whatever and hold up your shield, announce you are fighting in total defense and roleplay it as him just enjoying the show of the party struggling. Play him as being superior to them and knowing it.

Trust me when I say, when you play with someone who plays as if they are better you want to make your character better to show them they are not.

Sometimes you need to lead them backward to the water.

Somehow I doubt the solution to "The DM thinks my character is unbalanced and is overshadowing the group" is to play up the fact that he overshadows the group.

[Squark]

Somehow I doubt the solution to "The DM thinks my character is unbalanced and is overshadowing the group" is to play up the fact that he overshadows the group.

No, but his character bringing up the fact he doesn't think the other characters are living up to their full potential might not be a bad idea if he can figure out a way to get it past this DM's byzantine house rules.

[Nerdtothe3rd]

Somehow I doubt the solution to "The DM thinks my character is unbalanced and is overshadowing the group" is to play up the fact that he overshadows the group.

True but spurring on the rest of the party to want to do better, want to research and try and become a better player might not be bad.

Also how do you get called OP if you are not doing anything.

[Talakeal]

*Tosses two pennies into the thread*
Unfortunately, it seems your DM is very inexperienced and would rather "Roleplay" then actually do anything remotely based on the mechanics of the game. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, but then he invents rules on the fly to punish those he sees as trying to meta-game (Actually use the mechanics of the game)

I think you should probably find a new group or DM the group from now on till they come into their own. But barring that option.

Play your fighter how you feel. Isn't he tired of always having to carry the group through places? I mean if he is the one killing everything and everyone why does he need this group of whimps following him around chanting their silly little spells that aren't doing much?

He has the excuse of maybe letting them get ruffed up a bit. Use it for your character's enjoyment. Heck maybe being the d*ck will make them want to get better just to refute the claim that they are weak. Every battle just saunter around and beat up the baddies but don't kill them and then saunter off to a tree or wall or whatever and hold up your shield, announce you are fighting in total defense and roleplay it as him just enjoying the show of the party struggling. Play him as being superior to them and knowing it.

Trust me when I say, when you play with someone who plays as if they are better you want to make your character better to show them they are not.

Sometimes you need to lead them backward to the water.

Great idea, but it presupposes that the players are the type who rise to challenges. In my experience there are two types of players, those who believe "When the going gets tough the tough get going," and those who believe "When the going gets tough I give up," and the latter would simply quite the game or whine.

Also, the DM would almost certainly put a stop to it.

I think the issue is that, to put it bluntly, this DM isn't using the right system. He needs to find a much faster, rules-lite system for the game he wants to run. D&D simply isn't designed to be played with that strict a player-character separation- How on earth did you figure out what the enhancement bonus on the banded mail was, unless he broke his own rule (or the rules don't apply to him)?

The DM actually told me it was a "glowing suit of field plate," and between sessions changed a bunch of numbers on my sheet. I tried to reverse engineer it and +1 banded mail is the closest I can get to.

How can you have the Dodge feat with 12 Dex?

I didn't realize dodge had a dex requirement, guess I will switch it out.

*Tosses two pennies into the thread*
Unfortunately, it seems your DM is very inexperienced and would rather "Roleplay" then actually do anything remotely based on the mechanics of the game. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, but then he invents rules on the fly to punish those he sees as trying to meta-game (Actually use the mechanics of the game)

I think you should probably find a new group or DM the group from now on till they come into their own. But barring that option.

Play your fighter how you feel. Isn't he tired of always having to carry the group through places? I mean if he is the one killing everything and everyone why does he need this group of whimps following him around chanting their silly little spells that aren't doing much?

He has the excuse of maybe letting them get ruffed up a bit. Use it for your character's enjoyment. Heck maybe being the d*ck will make them want to get better just to refute the claim that they are weak. Every battle just saunter around and beat up the baddies but don't kill them and then saunter off to a tree or wall or whatever and hold up your shield, announce you are fighting in total defense and roleplay it as him just enjoying the show of the party struggling. Play him as being superior to them and knowing it.

Trust me when I say, when you play with someone who plays as if they are better you want to make your character better to show them they are not.

Sometimes you need to lead them backward to the water.

He isn't inexperienced. He claims to have been DMing longer than I have been alive (and I am no spring chicken anymore) and owns just about every D&D book from every edition ever published, and is constantly referencing obscure PF splat books that I have never even heard of.

I think he is just trying to recreate the "good old days" of omnipotent DM's and rules light games.

True but spurring on the rest of the party to want to do better, want to research and try and become a better player might not be bad.

Also how do you get called OP if you are not doing anything.

Well, as I said I do seem to do more damage than the rest of the group combined most fights. It came up when I hit 4th level and the DM asked me what feat I wanted to take. I told him "weapon specialization" and he gave me a frowny face followed by a lecture about how he can't challenge me without killing the rest of the part and told me he would much prefer I start taking feats that improve my versatility rather my power, such as ranged feats or these weird limited use feats that let me use other classes abilities once a day.



Also, this is not the first time I have run into the problem of a DM who doesn't know how to challenge a straight fighter. They see HP, AC, BaB/Thac0, and damage dice that are far above the rest of the party and immediately scream OP. And in a group when people (either the DM or the other players) can't think outside the box when it comes to spells or tactics that is almost the case, although I still fail to see how a straight fighter can stand toe to toe with the monsters in the MM without some pretty decent tactics / optimization / good magic items. This attitude normally fades about the time people learn to use Save or Lose / Die / Suck spells instead of blasting or start tripping instead of attacking, but in this group the DM just seems to change the rules to correct any perceived imbalances so that may never happen.

[Squark]

The DM actually told me it was a "glowing suit of field plate," and between sessions changed a bunch of numbers on my sheet. I tried to reverse engineer it and +1 banded mail is the closest I can get to.

... I don't... Why on earth is this guy playing 3rd edition?

I think your best bet is to give him free reign over your character sheet if you really want to stay in the game, and maybe suggest the party try 2nd edition or something since it seems like he's trying to make Pathfinder into d&d basic (Phrase it differently, obviously).

[jiriku]

Yeah. There's a conflicting set of expectations here. You and he are not playing the same game.

[Threadnaught]

He isn't inexperienced. He claims to have been DMing longer than I have been alive (and I am no spring chicken anymore) and owns just about every D&D book from every edition ever published, and is constantly referencing obscure PF splat books that I have never even heard of.

My my, such arrogance, it's like looking in a mirror. Could I have a little discussion argument flame war with your DM, on a one to one basis?

I think he is just trying to recreate the "good old days" of omnipotent DM's and rules light games.

Yeah, you should definitely run.


Celestia has abandoned your gaming life. Maybe you can try gaming with someone here, you're among friends.

[Windstorm]

The DM actually told me it was a "glowing suit of field plate," and between sessions changed a bunch of numbers on my sheet. I tried to reverse engineer it and +1 banded mail is the closest I can get to.

He isn't inexperienced. He claims to have been DMing longer than I have been alive (and I am no spring chicken anymore) and owns just about every D&D book from every edition ever published, and is constantly referencing obscure PF splat books that I have never even heard of.

I had a response to this, then I read the above, all I have left is the gif

[Nerdtothe3rd]

Yeah I have to agree, just run. Run Far and Run Fast.

[RolkFlameraven]

He isn't inexperienced. He claims to have been DMing longer than I have been alive (and I am no spring chicken anymore) and owns just about every D&D book from every edition ever published, and is constantly referencing obscure PF splat books that I have never even heard of.

I think he is just trying to recreate the "good old days" of omnipotent DM's and rules light games.

Doesn't really jive with

They see HP, AC, BaB/Thac0, and damage dice that are far above the rest of the party and immediately scream OP.

I mean really, even a DM with only a few years under their belt will know that 'put the pointy end into the other man' can't come close to magic, even magic being used as just a hammer and not a full tool box.

I'm still trying to understand how he can be upset over wep spec and want you to burn feats on BS 1/day things but bans bards... that boggles my mind.

If he is pulling out odd Pathfinder books of all things he has to be using 3rd party, there just isn't enough PF books for it to be pure any other way. IF that is true... well Path of War is out and, despite giving you one hell of a power boost, would be much closer to what he seem to be after.

Your other, and best option, would be to talk to the other players. Try to help them be better at what they do. I don't care if the DM doesn't want you to do it, it need to be done. Talk to the Druid about how he can do so much more then heal bot (with what has to be the worse heal bot class that has healing magic) talk to the witch about all the other spells that they have, things like that.

Because unless the whole other team just sit around and buffs/heal you they can't be doing much or rolled utter crap. Now if they ARE doing nothing but healing/buffing you then your DM is just nuts and the game is going as it should be.

[Rater202]

I'm gonna second the "Talk big" BS. He ain't experienced, he just thinks he is.

[Sith_Happens]

...By any chance is this DM named Sean K. Reynolds?

[eggynack]

I mean really, even a DM with only a few years under their belt will know that 'put the pointy end into the other man' can't come close to magic, even magic being used as just a hammer and not a full tool box.

I disagree. Experience doesn't connect perfectly to system mastery, and someone can have years of gaming on their belt and still not know how completely high tier classes crush low tier classes into the ground. I've talked to a good number of people, people who have likely played the game significantly more than I have, who still think that monks are the end all and be all of power. A person could probably play their whole life and still not have a good understanding of that sort of thing, just because they've never really questioned their preconceived notions of how the game operates.

[The Glyphstone]

...By any chance is this DM named Sean K. Reynolds?

I've had plenty to say about SKR's faults as a game designer in the past, but even he's shown a better grasp of fundamental game concepts than this person.

[Qwertystop]

SKR's a major designer who makes a lot of... questionable design decisions.

[sonofzeal]

I would recommend a slightly different approach.

Abandon your Fighter. They're like 99% passive effects anyway, so your DM isn't going to be happy with anything you do there. Ask to reroll a replacement if he doesn't like it.

Make an... oh, let's say... TWF Ranger using Shield Bash for the off-hand attack, if that still works in PF. Get banned the first session.

Make a Sorcerer actually using your spells effectively and creatively. Get banned.

See how many of the core classes you can get banned, then start one the ones the other players are using. Save those for last though, because by then they'll see what you're doing. Don't be n arse about it, don't Pun-Pun or use infinite loops or anything actually broken, just patiently demonstrate piece by piece how, y'know, every class has ways to contribute just as well as your fighter is, and slowly recalibrate his (and the group's) expectations of what a D&D character can do.

[Qwertystop]

I would recommend a slightly different approach.

Abandon your Fighter. They're like 99% passive effects anyway, so your DM isn't going to be happy with anything you do there. Ask to reroll a replacement if he doesn't like it.

Make an... oh, let's say... TWF Ranger using Shield Bash for the off-hand attack, if that still works in PF. Get banned the first session.

Make a Sorcerer actually using your spells effectively and creatively. Get banned.

See how many of the core classes you can get banned, then start one the ones the other players are using. Save those for last though, because by then they'll see what you're doing. Don't be n arse about it, don't Pun-Pun or use infinite loops or anything actually broken, just patiently demonstrate piece by piece how, y'know, every class has ways to contribute just as well as your fighter is, and slowly recalibrate his (and the group's) expectations of what a D&D character can do.

I agree with this, but the importance of keeping it simple cannot be overstated. Don't do anything that seems to go beyond the most obvious intent of the ability, don't do anything that would be OP by a better-calibrated standard. For example, don't make a book of Explosive Runes and then dispel-bob it - just use one, write it on a bit of paper, and slip it under the door. Break a box if the lock is too good. Simple things like that, because if you do anything crazy (benchmark: does it involve chaining abilities together? That's too much) they can say you're going overboard, and that you're the problem.

[OldTrees1]

I would recommend a slightly different approach.

Abandon your Fighter. They're like 99% passive effects anyway, so your DM isn't going to be happy with anything you do there. Ask to reroll a replacement if he doesn't like it.

Make an... oh, let's say... TWF Ranger using Shield Bash for the off-hand attack, if that still works in PF. Get banned the first session.

Make a Sorcerer actually using your spells effectively and creatively. Get banned.

See how many of the core classes you can get banned, then start one the ones the other players are using. Save those for last though, because by then they'll see what you're doing. Don't be n arse about it, don't Pun-Pun or use infinite loops or anything actually broken, just patiently demonstrate piece by piece how, y'know, every class has ways to contribute just as well as your fighter is, and slowly recalibrate his (and the group's) expectations of what a D&D character can do.

Huh. With enough finesse (more than in this quote suggests) this might work without being passive aggressive. Without the finesse the group will either conclude all the classes are broken or, more likely, you are broken.

[Blackhawk748]

I agree wholeheartedly with the Firefly gif, because there is NO WAY i can phrase it better than that.

Also i second the "give every other core class a whirl" recommendation as well as helping the other PCs, because if you are doing all their DPS something has gone so horribly wrong.

On a completely side note, you should totally TWF with Bastard Swords, apparently this group is sup optimal and TH Fighting is so OP

Edit: Aaaaand i just looked at that first thread.............. please tell me Restoration works on San loss......

[Talakeal]

I agree wholeheartedly with the Firefly gif, because there is NO WAY i can phrase it better than that.

Also i second the "give every other core class a whirl" recommendation as well as helping the other PCs, because if you are doing all their DPS something has gone so horribly wrong.

On a completely side note, you should totally TWF with Bastard Swords, apparently this group is sup optimal and TH Fighting is so OP

Oh right, I forgot about that one.

Dual Wielding is also banned in this campaign. I remember the rogue asked if he could do it and he was given a long lecture about how cheesy and unrealistic it was.

Ok, now I know it sounds like I am trolling, but I swear I am not!