Erfworld thread IV: In memory of King Saline

[Douglas]

Really, this brings up another point:

Why do we so rarely see nations acquire new casters from the MK?

According to Digdoug's story, there should be a bunch of them sticking around desperate for a job (since they need it to survive.) GK has a ton of money, seems to be winning overwhelmingly, and ought to have been able to sweep up huge amounts of casters.

A unit acquired in such a way would likely have very low loyalty, and the side doing it would be committing to paying this low-loyalty unit's upkeep indefinitely, without necessarily having regularly occurring use for it to get their money's worth. Also, the casters that are in such a situation are likely among the lowest level and least skilled/useful, because if they weren't they'd likely be finding enough jobs to easily support themselves. So, a hypothetical side recruiting permanent members that way would be putting a lot of money in recurring payments to acquire incompetent likely turncoats without knowing or planning for their specialties in advance.

But the real reason is probably more "It Just Isn't Done!"

That wouldn't stop Parson, of course, but I'd guess no one's mentioned anything about it to him so he doesn't know it's an option.

[Wayson]

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I have wondered for quite a while what, exactly, Charlie is doing with his giant Archon fleet. We never see too many of them in the field at any one time, although apparently he's got legions of them at his lone city. And he's got higher priorities than fighting a war with a side that has declared its intent to conquer the entire world, possesses two Arkentools, and can actually do what it is trying to. What, exactly, is higher priority than stopping THAT? To boot, 200k+ is not chump change for any side. To drop that much in reparations for a dubious quasi-ally instead of committing Archons to simply schwack Stanley and eliminate the threat is... odd.

And all for Jillian, who is a few crows shy of a murder and useless to everyone.

I feel like I'm missing a lot here.

[HandofShadows]

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And all for Jillian, who is a few crows shy of a murder and useless to everyone.

I feel like I'm missing a lot here.

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Apparently Fate had decided that Jillian has a VERY important role to play at some point. But, yeah. We are missing a lot of info that Charlie has. Or THINKS he has.

[HandofShadows]

According to Digdoug's story, there should be a bunch of them sticking around desperate for a job (since they need it to survive.) GK has a ton of money, seems to be winning overwhelmingly, and ought to have been able to sweep up huge amounts of casters.

We do have a reason GK does not hire. Many are refusing to do buisness with GK. Some point early in Book 2 it was mentioned that K was running low on healing scrolls because no one in the MK would sell to them. Probably do to Charlie.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

A unit acquired in such a way would likely have very low loyalty, and the side doing it would be committing to paying this low-loyalty unit's upkeep indefinitely, without necessarily having regularly occurring use for it to get their money's worth. Also, the casters that are in such a situation are likely among the lowest level and least skilled/useful, because if they weren't they'd likely be finding enough jobs to easily support themselves. So, a hypothetical side recruiting permanent members that way would be putting a lot of money in recurring payments to acquire incompetent likely turncoats without knowing or planning for their specialties in advance.

But the real reason is probably more "It Just Isn't Done!"

That wouldn't stop Parson, of course, but I'd guess no one's mentioned anything about it to him so he doesn't know it's an option.

Even a high value caster would be a dubious proposition. Having a powerful caster with low loyalty in your capitol is a risky proposition. What happens when in the middle of a fight, someone gives a better offer. Maybe like a chance at revenge for their fallen side or a chance to attack an old enemy of their former side. Something that could appeal to their loyalty to the fallen side.

You also don't know if the caster in question had a part in the fall of their former side. Why are they safe in the MK instead of disbanding/croaking with the rest of their side?

[Killer Angel]

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I have wondered for quite a while what, exactly, Charlie is doing with his giant Archon fleet. We never see too many of them in the field at any one time, although apparently he's got legions of them at his lone city. And he's got higher priorities than fighting a war with a side that has declared its intent to conquer the entire world, possesses two Arkentools, and can actually do what it is trying to. What, exactly, is higher priority than stopping THAT? To boot, 200k+ is not chump change for any side. To drop that much in reparations for a dubious quasi-ally instead of committing Archons to simply schwack Stanley and eliminate the threat is... odd.

And all for Jillian, who is a few crows shy of a murder and useless to everyone.

I feel like I'm missing a lot here.

I still think that a good part of this "offer", is a bluff.

[slayerx]

Really, this brings up another point:

Why do we so rarely see nations acquire new casters from the MK?

According to Digdoug's story, there should be a bunch of them sticking around desperate for a job (since they need it to survive.) GK has a ton of money, seems to be winning overwhelmingly, and ought to have been able to sweep up huge amounts of casters.

Well, as mentioned above, GK has the problem of being HATED by the magic kingdom; so they'll have trouble hiring casters. The other problem however is the self-worth of casters and their worth to sides. The casters that every side wants like Thinkamancers find enough work that they don't need to tie themselves down to a side; Dirtamancers are not very popular to sides, but they find enough work in the magic kingdom that they are fine without merc work. Why should they join a side when its safer being a merc? Basically the only casters that are desperate enough to join a side are the ones that sides generally don't want. First theirs the carnymancers, but after what happened with Jojo, Parson won't trust a carny... and i don't think the carny's would want to join up with a side warring with Charlie. Croakamancers are probably another one, but GK has no need for them when they have Wanda. That leaves the predictamancers as the only other caster type we know that has trouble finding work. GK could probably hire one, but no point to hiring more than that. Most of the other disciplines, the ones that GK might have use for, probably do well enough for themselves that they would not join a side as despised as GK

[Winterwind]

Apparently Fate had decided that Jillian has a VERY important role to play at some point. But, yeah. We are missing a lot of info that Charlie has. Or THINKS he has.

It might be that none of Charlie's allies in the MK were perceptive enough to notice that Jack is Decrypted now (couldn't blame them, really - with a huge number of Decrypted stomping around the MK and the shock that must have been, it might have been easy to overlook that that one caster way back in the background had a different set of clothes now, and then he disappeared into the Thinkamancer Temple). In which case, this might all be about protecting the information from Book 0, Charlie being unaware that Parson already has all or most of it.

[TheStranger]

I still think that a good part of this "offer", is a bluff.

I do think it's a bluff that he has enough archons nearby to get to Stanley before he gets home. Parson's right; here's really no reason for Charlie not to simply let Stanley deplete his forces on Jillian then croak him, if he has the capability. Worried about Jillian being decrypted and revealing Book 0 secrets? That can't happen until Stanley meets up with Wanda, so Charlie can recover or destroy the body before it's a problem. Concerned about breaking contracts by using archons he's supposed to commit elsewhere? I doubt the value of those contracts is more than 200,000 schmuckers, and the reputation damage from breaking contracts to croak Stanley would be minimal. I'm really not seeing a downside to simply bringing overwhelming force to bear on Stanley, if that's an option. And really, the force required to destroy Stanley's already-weakened strike force isn't a substantial amount for Charlie to divert from other uses. A couple dozen archons could do it easily, if Charlie had them nearby.

That said, it's unclear how worried Parson should be about Charlie deciding to make destroying him a priority. We know Charlie has at least 600 archons, both in his capital and fulfilling various contracts elsewhere. If he were to pull them out of the field and attack Gobwin Knob with even half of that, they'd be hard-pressed to stop him. And really, the only reason for Charlie not to do that is the enormous upkeep of archons. If Charlie has 600 archons, with upkeep ranging from 200-500 schmuckers, the cumulative upkeep is at least $150,000, probably more like $200,000. Since Charlie has only one city, the vast majority of that upkeep must come from mercenary work, which is presumably what most of his archons are doing; earning upwards of $200,000 each turn in dozens of petty conflicts (making his offer to Parson here chump change). Which means that Charlie probably *can't* bring the bulk of his forces to bear; he can't afford to take them off mercenary duty for more than a handful of turns unless his treasury is in the tens of millions. Charlie certainly has some number of archons that aren't tied down by mercenary work, and some amount of reserve funds that he can use to pay upkeep if he needs to go into the red for a while, but we really don't know how many archons Charlie could commit if he wanted to. It's certainly possible that he could easily wipe Gobwin Knob or any other side off the map if he chose to do so, but it's also possible that he's actually in a fairly precarious position, only a few turns away from ruin if he loses his income stream.

[Fjolnir]

Here's the question that was asked in the erfworld forums: "What kind of enemy is stronger than the combined might of 3 schools of magic and GK?"

[HandofShadows]

Here's the question that was asked in the erfworld forums: "What kind of enemy is stronger than the combined might of 3 schools of magic and GK?"

Yeah, that IS an interesting question. An outside force? (Another "game" trying to invade Erfworld) Fate? Or something totaly from Left Field.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Yeah, that IS an interesting question. An outside force? (Another "game" trying to invade Erfworld) Fate? Or something totaly from Left Field.

What about the problem that is Charlie's secret? The thing with the drugs? I mean think about it...drugs mixed with thinkamancy....what if the monkey on his back turned into something real??

[Legato Endless]

Here's the question that was asked in the erfworld forums: "What kind of enemy is stronger than the combined might of 3 schools of magic and GK?"

The antagonist in Book 4?

[Winterwind]

I do think it's a bluff that he has enough archons nearby to get to Stanley before he gets home.
*analysis*

While he sort of implied that he'd use his own status as aerial power to take Stanley down, if necessary, he didn't explicitly say he had enough archons around to do so.

Here's my thought - we have already seen how powerful scrolls can be, if they are of the hundreds-of-thousands-of-Schmuckers-sort, and we have seen how powerful big link-ups can be. Link-ups, using Magic Kingdom casters, creating weird new spell effects and tons of money all being things that Charlie specializes in. What if he created - maybe for a cost measured in the millions - a scroll or a few that are, essentially, atom bombs? He wouldn't need a lot of archons in the area then - just one (keep in mind, they are sort-of-casters themselves, so they might very well be capable of using scrolls) flying into that hex and then destroying everything in it would suffice. He already hinted at having all sorts of things prepared that he never was forced to use before in the Book 2 Epilogue - right about now is the time where it might make narrative sense from the author's perspective to show that, so it doesn't come across as empty threats. And that might explain why he might not want to use this option, either, if he can avoid it - it would be extremely costly, and he probably wouldn't want people knowing that he can do things like that (lest he finds himself in the position of "biggest threat to status quo" and thus target of a massive coalition.

EDIT: Now, it almost certainly is not going to be exactly something like this - removing Jillian and Ansom both from the story right now would leave their arc unresolved, there is certainly more planned for at least one of those characters still - but it might be something more selective than that. In any case, I'm starting to suspect that one of the purposes of this whole scene might be underscoring just how dangerous an opponent Charlie actually is - it started with the hobgobwins-thing, but I'm not at all convinced it is not about to get a hundred times worse.

[The Glyphstone]

The cries of 'Deus Ex Machina' would shake the heavens, but it's a possibility.

[Winterwind]

The cries of 'Deus Ex Machina' would shake the heavens, but it's a possibility.

Unless whatever Charlie used literally made a god jump out of a machine, boop the boop up, and vanish - something just entirely this side of possible, considering this is Erfworld - I'd disagree with that assessment adamantly. We were told that Charlie has some really big things in store that he never had to use. Not seeing some of this before the story is over would be just plain weird.

[Jasdoif]

It occurs to me....If Charlie has the ability to kill Stanley unless Jillian is left alive, wouldn't he still have the ability if Jillian is left alive? If does so, the only difference in the end result would be that he still has Jillian as an asset. He may expecting that to stop/trivialize Parson as well, which is why he's willing to pay so much (in funds and calculations) to get to that point. And that's without considering whether Charlie could reclaim the monetary portion from GK's capital after Stanley's dead.

[The Glyphstone]

Unless whatever Charlie used literally made a god jump out of a machine, boop the boop up, and vanish - something just entirely this side of possible, considering this is Erfworld - I'd disagree with that assessment adamantly. We were told that Charlie has some really big things in store that he never had to use. Not seeing some of this before the story is over would be just plain weird.

I never said the cries would be justified.

[TechnoWarforged]

I rememeber something about "dragon relays" way back where a unit can be transported by a train of dwagons. I think Stanley can get back home safely that way.

What is interesting is the dialogue between Parson and Charlie. If you are in Charlie's position you know Parson will never accept anything that you offer, so why make the offer? You might find out a thing or two, but ended up revealing more about what you know and your motative. From the conversation in the last two comic strip, it looks like both sides are telling each other a lot if they really pay attention.

[Killer Angel]

That said, it's unclear how worried Parson should be about Charlie deciding to make destroying him a priority.

It seems to me that, during the siege of Spacerock, Charlie devoted a good amount of resources and personal attention, just to kill the Fat Man.
Parson is already very high in Charlie's priority, I believe.

[HalfTangible]

I rememeber something about "dragon relays" way back where a unit can be transported by a train of dwagons. I think Stanley can get back home safely that way.

What is interesting is the dialogue between Parson and Charlie. If you are in Charlie's position you know Parson will never accept anything that you offer, so why make the offer? You might find out a thing or two, but ended up revealing more about what you know and your motative. From the conversation in the last two comic strip, it looks like both sides are telling each other a lot if they really pay attention.

The dwagon relays are in shambles right now.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Here's the question that was asked in the erfworld forums: "What kind of enemy is stronger than the combined might of 3 schools of magic and GK?"

Charlie has already told us.

The only Enemy Worth Fighting.

[Kornaki]

What contractual obligation is Charlie fulfilling?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not specified, unless I've forgotten even more of the plot than usual.

Anybody else suddenly being reminded of the discussion about what would happen if Jillian Banhammer got a hold of the ArkenHammer?

[Anteros]

I hope we get some sort of explanation as to why Jillian is so important at some point soon other than author fiat.

[hajo]

What contractual obligation is Charlie fulfilling?

A few things come to mind:
* the deal of a lifetime with FAQ
* the deal with "terrible cost" to keep him alife from Olive's flowers
* any amount of still undisclosed deals with clients and casters ...

[Winterwind]

of a lifetime

Rereading this one, I find there are a lot of important details I'd forgotten about. So Jillian couldn't tell anyone anything about Charlie, even if she was Decrypted - in her case, those memories are entirely gone, alongside all kinds of other important parts of her identity. Might it be that something Charlie saw in Jillian's mindscape back then is the reason he wants her to survive now? Or maybe because he set up something in her mind that will make her play a part important to his schemes?

[ryuplaneswalker]

Rereading this one, I find there are a lot of important details I'd forgotten about. So Jillian couldn't tell anyone anything about Charlie, even if she was Decrypted - in her case, those memories are entirely gone, alongside all kinds of other important parts of her identity. Might it be that something Charlie saw in Jillian's mindscape back then is the reason he wants her to survive now? Or maybe because he set up something in her mind that will make her play a part important to his schemes?

Unless Decryption were to heal the damage he has inflicted upon Jillian, we know it ended Jack's contract..perhaps Decrypted heals the corpse to its full state.

[Winterwind]

Unless Decryption were to heal the damage he has inflicted upon Jillian, we know it ended Jack's contract..perhaps Decrypted heals the corpse to its full state.

But the contract and what he did to Jillian had nothing to do with each other. The contract is only a magical compunction not to talk about that subject; what Charlie did to Jillian while curing her from the heroine bud addiction was something very different and far more monstrous (clearly evidenced by her already being under that contract before she ever subjected herself to the curing procedure). So, while Decryption might reverse what he did - which I very, very much doubt, though - it ending Jack's contract does not indicate anything whatsoever when it comes to this, one way or the other.

[ryuplaneswalker]

But the contract and what he did to Jillian had nothing to do with each other. The contract is only a magical compunction not to talk about that subject; what Charlie did to Jillian while curing her from the heroine bud addiction was something very different and far more monstrous (clearly evidenced by her already being under that contract before she ever subjected herself to the curing procedure). So, while Decryption might reverse what he did - which I very, very much doubt, though - it ending Jack's contract does not indicate anything whatsoever when it comes to this, one way or the other.

No, but if you are Charlie do you want to at all risk it?