Erfworld thread IV: In memory of King Saline

[-D-]

I get the feeling GMTTA got more than their bargained for. My money is on Parson destroying their little culty group.

[Spojaz]

The Great Minds Who Think Alike have unbending rules, altogether too much knowledge (which is power) and an unknown agenda (outside of getting rid of Charlie). Not great traits for a protagonist to have...

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, but this time it's literally about "Forgive a minor transgression so we can give Charlie a beating"... and the Great Minds simply can't let go. This isn't even tradition - this is simply being greedy and wanting everything.

I'm curious why you're categorizing this transgression as "minor", since to my knowledge the only thing we know about it is that it was significant enough that they worked out their answer in advance.

[Lethologica]

It's certainly a massive transgression to them, whatever it is. Our standards might not be aligned with theirs, though.

[Legato Endless]

I'm hoping it isn't minor frankly. I kind of like Isaac, for all the unsettling aspects of his cabal, and the conflict is much more interesting if what Bunny did, while understandable from a certain perspective, was still a huge violation that is forbidden for better reasons than simply the Great Minds' ensconced self interests.

[HalfTangible]

I'm hoping it isn't minor frankly. I kind of like Isaac, for all the unsettling aspects of his cabal, and the conflict is much more interesting if what Bunny did, while understandable from a certain perspective, was still a huge violation that is forbidden for better reasons than simply the Great Minds' ensconced self interests.

Some ideas:
-Don's son had thinkamancy and Bunny took them away so Don could stay on the throne
-Similar situation to Stanley/Jillian - Someone blackmailed Don's life in exchange for some secret of Thinkamancy
-That contract Charlie mentioned concerns this in some way. That's an obvious Chekov's gun, though how it'll go off hasn't been revealed yet.
-Bunny is directly involved in Transylvito's bat scouting thing.

[The Glyphstone]

All we know is that it involves an oath to the Great Minds that she broke (for love).

The Great Minds seem to be mostly concerned with protecting Thinkamancy's secrets and mysticism, as much as they are with opposing Charlie (who, really, boils down to a business competitor of theirs). What could Bunny have told Don, or shown him, that would warrant excommunication from the Minds?

[memnarch]

All we know is that it involves an oath to the Great Minds that she broke (for love).

The Great Minds seem to be mostly concerned with protecting Thinkamancy's secrets and mysticism, as much as they are with opposing Charlie (who, really, boils down to a business competitor of theirs). What could Bunny have told Don, or shown him, that would warrant excommunication from the Minds?

Perhaps it's the viewing things through bat eyes?

[Bird]

I'm hoping it isn't minor frankly. I kind of like Isaac, for all the unsettling aspects of his cabal, and the conflict is much more interesting if what Bunny did, while understandable from a certain perspective, was still a huge violation that is forbidden for better reasons than simply the Great Minds' ensconced self interests.

Absolutely this. The thing is, all the pieces are set up for the rule violation to be (from our perspective) silly. We have a society with strange secret rules on one hand, and a character who did something "for love" (a motivation we're supposed to immediately identify with) on the other. Plus, we naturally sympathize with the individual over the cabal. The narrative will be so much more interesting if it subverts our expectations by forcing us to consider that the Great Minds actually had a good point.

[Killer Angel]

Yeah, but this time it's literally about "Forgive a minor transgression so we can give Charlie a beating"... and the Great Minds simply can't let go. This isn't even tradition - this is simply being greedy and wanting everything.

While I agree with Parson's position, we still don't know the details of the "transgression".

[Calemyr]

Yeah, the transgression could be anything at this point. For example, what if Bunny is responsible for Don's "Bat Cam" abilities and that's a power the Great Minds don't want overlords to have? What if her skills were integral to the fall of Don King's numerous heirs, but they weren't all guilty? One was just a good enough leader that it threatened her king? What if she used her access to "certain thinkamancy bands" to listen in on and report to Don about topics that the Great Minds agreed to keep secret? What if she outright told him about the Great Minds, and some of the many conspiracies they're involved in? What if she used her abilities to "rig" battles in a way that the Great Minds find disgusting? Or betray a standing king in favor of a young and upcoming vampire with the charm of a godfather and the hair of a boxing promoter?

If Thinkamancers were allowed to operate with impunity and without guidelines, they could easily be as hated and mistrusted as Carnies. Heck, more than Carnies. The austerity of the Great Minds, the neutrality of the Magic Kingdom, the entire lot in life for entire disciplines of casters in general, all of it could be destroyed very easily by a rogue Thinkamancer with more loyalty to her leader than her kin. Maggie might well become proof of that.

A soul in love can justify many treasons, and not all of them are minor.

[hajo]

I get the feeling GMTTA got more than their bargained for.

I think several of the thinkamencer's secrets will get out sooner or later,
simply because they will get obvious.

E.g. Parson's idea to bring Bunny to the temple to talk securely.
If you want such precautions, anybody might start to think about the reasons...

Also, how do you explain that, without spilling the secret ?

[-D-]

The narrative will be so much more interesting if it subverts our expectations by forcing us to consider that the Great Minds actually had a good point.

Sure, although I'm not sure if we are in for a subversion. I guess they have their reasons.

E.g. Parson's idea to bring Bunny to the temple to talk securely.
If you want such precautions, anybody might start to think about the reasons...

I don't see much to explain. A thinkamancer, going to thinkamancy Temple. What is there to explain? It's about as suspicious as JoJo going back to Carnyvale.

[Doran]

Backer story!

So.. Rhymamancy

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Maybe Thomas thinks the epic will fail as he doesn't have any exciting deeds to sing about?
So he wants to avoid the blame from that?

Seems like a dysfunctional family relationship in Erfworld.

[HandofShadows]

Seems like a dysfunctional family relationship in Erfworld.
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In other words a totally average family relationship in Erf. I swear about the only really good family relationship we have seen was between Wanda and her brother.

[Killer Angel]

Seems like a dysfunctional family relationship in Erfworld.

In other words a totally average family relationship in Erf.

No surprise, given that also in old Europe, wars were fought by kings that were often part of the same family.

[theangelJean]

How does "family" work in Erfworld, anyway? Since reproduction is by popping, what determines who is related to whom? For example, Wanda considered herself and Tommy to be the children of Overlord Firebaugh and she was clearly popped under his rule. Stanley came from a Kingdom, does that make him a child of King Saline (or the previous rulers), and then why isn't he a Noble?

[Landis963]

How does "family" work in Erfworld, anyway? Since reproduction is by popping, what determines who is related to whom? For example, Wanda considered herself and Tommy to be the children of Overlord Firebaugh and she was clearly popped under his rule. Stanley came from a Kingdom, does that make him a child of King Saline (or the previous rulers), and then why isn't he a Noble?

Stanley was promoted up through the ranks, and then designated Heir. I suspect this makes him closer to an adopted son (or even a legitimized bastard) than a biological one.

[Calemyr]

How does "family" work in Erfworld, anyway? Since reproduction is by popping, what determines who is related to whom? For example, Wanda considered herself and Tommy to be the children of Overlord Firebaugh and she was clearly popped under his rule. Stanley came from a Kingdom, does that make him a child of King Saline (or the previous rulers), and then why isn't he a Noble?

I think you're only a "child" of someone if you're the the same race/quality as the governor of the city you're popped in. If Stanley had been popped as a royal in Gobwin Knob (the city, not the side), he would be considered Saline's "son". However, we know he was popped as common and just kept getting promoted because he is freaking scary as anything less than an Overlord (and honestly, compared to the other Overlords we've seen, he's not that bad...).

I think family is a lot like signamancy in Erfworld - it's a powerful but subtle undertone of relationships rather than some generic rule of genetics (since genetics aren't a thing beyond signamancy). Or perhaps a natural form of another discipline (date-a-mancy, perhaps, if that involves relationships beyond the physical), connecting a group of characters together in a strong but platonic bond.

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's also the fact that some units will pop as Royals, which essentially means offspring of the ruler.

[Calemyr]

There's also the fact that some units will pop as Royals, which essentially means offspring of the ruler.

Ah, I was thinking it was just another grade of unit quality: even better stats and growth rate than a noble, plus a few advancement options not open to nobles and commoners. Of course, I don't think any ruler would pop a royal anywhere but their own capital, which would make them family regardless.

[halfeye]

Hooray, that "Thinkagram" mess is over.

[Welf]

Hooray, that "Thinkagram" mess is over.

At least in RL. New update.

Yeah, the transgression could be anything at this point. For example, what if Bunny is responsible for Don's "Bat Cam" abilities and that's a power the Great Minds don't want overlords to have? What if her skills were integral to the fall of Don King's numerous heirs, but they weren't all guilty? One was just a good enough leader that it threatened her king? What if she used her access to "certain thinkamancy bands" to listen in on and report to Don about topics that the Great Minds agreed to keep secret? What if she outright told him about the Great Minds, and some of the many conspiracies they're involved in? What if she used her abilities to "rig" battles in a way that the Great Minds find disgusting? Or betray a standing king in favor of a young and upcoming vampire with the charm of a godfather and the hair of a boxing promoter?

If Thinkamancers were allowed to operate with impunity and without guidelines, they could easily be as hated and mistrusted as Carnies. Heck, more than Carnies. The austerity of the Great Minds, the neutrality of the Magic Kingdom, the entire lot in life for entire disciplines of casters in general, all of it could be destroyed very easily by a rogue Thinkamancer with more loyalty to her leader than her kin. Maggie might well become proof of that.

A soul in love can justify many treasons, and not all of them are minor.

I don't think it would be the Bat Cam. All TV warlords already have the ability to get information through their bats, Don simply increases the radius with thinkamancy. He doesn't get any information he wouldn't get anyway, just cuts the middle man. I think maybe Bunny explained too much about how thinkamancy works, and influenced the attempt by Prince Ponzi's to get the throne. Thinkamancy is the magic that keeps erfworld's system of rule and controlling in place. It forces units to obey orders and be loyal.

[guttering flame]

She says the king 'needs her like he needs air'. Did she cast some dependency-inducing spell on him?

[NEO|Phyte]

I suspect it's not literal, he's just become so accustomed to the conveniences of Thinkamancy that he'd have no clue what to do if he lacked them.

[Killer Angel]

As always, love is a dangerous affair...

[Lethologica]

As always, love is a dangerous affair...

War, somewhat less so, if the latest update is any indicator.

[Welf]

War, somewhat less so, if the latest update is any indicator.

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So we learn his name is fitting. And he inherited the smarts and tactical genius of his mother.

[HandofShadows]

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So we learn his name is fitting. And he inherited the smarts and tactical genius of his mother.

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One place Jillian is good in in a fight. Even when she is acting crazy/taking risks, she is aware of it on some level and knows she shouldn't be actin that way. I would also point out that this exercise might have been Jillian's idea. This kid though, still has a lot to learn.

[Killer Angel]

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So we learn his name is fitting. And he inherited the smarts and tactical genius of his mother.

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Let's hope the training will teach him something...
I doubt it, but who knows?