The Flash on CW

[Pex]

I wonder at what point Barry & co are going to question the morality of locking up peopl in what basically looks like a 10x10 room with no amenities for just about forever. No trial, nothing but a blank isolated cube. And when are the cops going to question where these baddies go. For all they know, these guys just disappear.

It's just a set up for the eventual special cliff hanger finale prison break where they are all set free by Captain Cold, the Cigarette Lighter person Captain Cold spoke with, the Yellow Lightning Man who killed Barry's mother, and/or Dr. Wells.

[Flickerdart]

Spoiler: My theory on the killer

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I think Dr. Wells is the Reverse Flash/Professor Zoom/whatever that kills Barry's mother, as part of his attempt to create the Flash.

[Kitten Champion]

Spoiler: My theory on the killer

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I think Dr. Wells is the Reverse Flash/Professor Zoom/whatever that kills Barry's mother, as part of his attempt to create the Flash.

I'd be genuinely surprised if that wasn't it.

Although the "we need tragedy to create the hero" shtick doesn't really feel all the Flash-like. As I've said previously, I always liked the Flash character in the DCAU because he wasn't heroic due to brooding angst thirsting for justice, some kind of messiah complex foisted upon him, or because he pulled some sword from a stone. He's just a guy, which makes his heroism all the more compelling to my mind.

[GenericMook]

I'd be genuinely surprised if that wasn't it.

Although the "we need tragedy to create the hero" shtick doesn't really feel all the Flash-like. As I've said previously, I always liked the Flash character in the DCAU because he wasn't heroic due to brooding angst thirsting for justice, some kind of messiah complex foisted upon him, or because he pulled some sword from a stone. He's just a guy, which makes his heroism all the more compelling to my mind.

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From my understanding, this is probably a case of a predestination paradox.

Wells travels back in time as Reverse Flash, kills Nora Allen, and puts Barry on the road to being the Flash, nudging things here and there, and even setting up the particle accelerator that leads to Barry being struck by lightning.

He does this because without Barry, there isn't a Flash (idk if Wally exists here), and without a Flash, there can't be a Reverse Flash. He basically sets everything in motion (Grodd, creating the accelerator, etc.) because he understands the importance of it.

Heck, I won't be surprised if they reveal that Wells knew that the accelerator would explode.

Also,

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Captain Boomerang got revealed in Arrow!

[Flickerdart]

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Heck, I won't be surprised if they reveal that Wells knew that the accelerator would explode.

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Didn't we see a flashback that basically confirmed this? I had the impression that the accelerator was never meant to accelerate anything except Barry.

[Pex]

Spoiler: My theory on the killer

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I think Dr. Wells is the Reverse Flash/Professor Zoom/whatever that kills Barry's mother, as part of his attempt to create the Flash.

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Duh!

[TheEmerged]

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Duh!

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Fly in the ointment: look up the name of Iris's boyfriend, Eddie.

[Ravian]

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Fly in the ointment: look up the name of Iris's boyfriend, Eddie.

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Yeah personally I think that Wells is only the guy behind Reverse Flash, manipulating events for some as of yet undefined scheme. I suspect it's probably Eddie or possible Caitlin's dead boyfriend. (Though he's likely to turn up as some villain if it's not Reverse Flash, I mean seriously the guy was at ground zero with the particle accelerator accident.) Of course given the time travel, if it's Eddie it's probably him from the future given that Reverse Flash is hanging around in this time.

[Friv]

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Fly in the ointment: look up the name of Iris's boyfriend, Eddie.

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Yeah, but it's the CW. They're totally willing to plant false leads to mess with long-time fans. Look at "Speedy" (aka Thea) or Tommy Merlyn in Arrow.

Eddie may turn out to be the Reverse Flash, but it's just as possible that he's got some complicating factor, or that he's a fake-out, or even that Harrison is going to try and turn Eddie into another Flash against his will and there are three Flashes out there.

[grolim]

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Yeah personally I think that Wells is only the guy behind Reverse Flash, manipulating events for some as of yet undefined scheme. I suspect it's probably Eddie or possible Caitlin's dead boyfriend. (Though he's likely to turn up as some villain if it's not Reverse Flash, I mean seriously the guy was at ground zero with the particle accelerator accident.) Of course given the time travel, if it's Eddie it's probably him from the future given that Reverse Flash is hanging around in this time.

Spoiler: Caitlin's boyfriend

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Doubtful since Caitlin's boyfriend is Ronnie Raymond and confirmed to be Firestorm. Later a member of the Justice League.

[Ravian]

Spoiler: Caitlin's boyfriend

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Doubtful since Caitlin's boyfriend is Ronnie Raymond and confirmed to be Firestorm. Later a member of the Justice League.

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Ah... I figured he would be some sort of meta-human. I've never been as up to speed on my DC characters, especially most of the more minor ones. (I'm too much of a marvel fanboy I guess)

That explains why my friend keeps on pointing out all the ice references he seems to say Caitlin keeps on using. I'm guessing there's some sort of Fire and Ice thing between the two?

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Dammit, I just looked up the wiki. Caitlin is Killer Frost!? Once again not the most well-versed in DC lore but even I can recognize a villain who ended up on the Justice League Cartoon.

[Flickerdart]

I've never been as up to speed on my DC characters

Puns!

[grolim]

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Dammit, I just looked up the wiki. Caitlin is Killer Frost!? Once again not the most well-versed in DC lore but even I can recognize a villain who ended up on the Justice League Cartoon.

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Yeah. In the comics there were several versions of her. Some that were Firestorm's enemy. One of my favorite scenes in a Firestorm comic was when he took her out. She had pierced his shoulder with a near zero icicle and he was passing out. Her power is heat absorption, she can drain Supes of all his yellow sun heat and be hungry for more. So he unloaded on her, and melted her. He melted the lady whose power was to absorb heat. I can still remember the quote from that one.....For the briefest of instants, in a space less than 5 feet square it is as if the sun physically touches the earth. Uncontrolled the energy would devastate the earth for miles, but it is controlled. Sucks he gets to little attention, he was fun. But he is a special effects hog for life action. Plus his power suite makes him in many ways like Superman, kind of over powered. His immaturity and inexperience is what hurt him a lot.

[BWR]

If the lesser of two evils is still evil. Then how do you explain running around a city getting into fights, acts of vandalism and breaking and entering. Invasion of privacy, not to mention putting innocent civilians in danger. How is that morally sound?

I'd much prefer someone breaking a law to help someone rather than just leaving them to get seriously hurt or die just because it's illegal. Beating up a baddie to stop him from hurting others is an imperfect soluition (which would be to somehow make a world where no one wants to do bad stuff, without any sort of mind-control hijinks), but it's better than letting innocents get hurt. Which innocents are you talking about, that Barry puts at risk?

[Kyberwulf]

Just because you prefer something doesn't make it ethical or moral.

[Ravian]

Yeah I fully suspect that the issue of imprisoning a bunch of highly dangerous yet untried meta-humans within a secret facility only slightly connected to legitimate law enforcement (in that they are on good terms with the police chief) will come back to bite them eventually. Sure Mist is legally dead so if anything they're doing him a favor here, but Girder (is that what they ended up calling him? Or was it just the name of the training bot?) was never tried, and his host of crimes arguably not horrible enough to ensure life imprisonment without chance of parole. (I don't believe he ever killed anyone, even if he did try to. Other than that he mainly just went on a power trip and smashed and stole a bunch of stuff. Certainly prison material, but not necessarily irredeemable)

The issue is that the law enforcement has no way to deal with criminals of this caliber, but the most obvious solution is: Stop trying to pretend meta-humans don't exist, and try to help the city deal with them legitimately, rather than playing judge, jury and (potentially) executioner. I fully believe this is mainly motivated by Well's secret evilness. If they make it open on the existence of meta-humans and try to step up as a source of aid, then obviously they'll want some info on why meta-humans have started to appear. And once they know it was the particle accelerator's fault, suddenly you have a bunch more scrutiny of Wells, and Barry goes from easily controllable vigilante/guinea pig to beloved public figure and law enforcement officer.

[Kitten Champion]

I just assume Wells wants the meta-humans for whatever his scheme inevitably is, and his two remaining staff are too invested in the project and supportive of Wells himself at this point to really see what's going on.

Although that doesn't explain the blind enthusiasm Barry has for this extraordinary renditioning going on - a man whose own father was subject to wrongful imprisonment, who was raised by a straight-laced cop, and who works in an official capacity as a forensic something-or-rather with the police - would be somewhat more conscientious to what was going on.

Him hiding his identity and his work in general seems rather more like it's following conventions of the genre rather than logically following from his character. Insisting, for instance, that Iris not involve herself in reporting on meta-human activities for her own safety seemed an awfully premature reaction -- the whole thing still feels like they simply need someone significant out of the loop so they can have secret identity related melodrama like in Smallville.

[BWR]

Just because you prefer something doesn't make it ethical or moral.

If you have any sort of universal, truly objective, externally provable system of morality, by all means share it. People will be thrilled. Until that time, yes, whatever I think is right is ethical and whatever I think is wrong is unethical. There may be details to work out but that's the basis of all ethics.
Do you truly believe that all unethical actions (however you define 'ethical') are of equal magnitude?
If you answered 'no', when put into a situation where two unethical choices of unequal magnitude are given, do you believe that the he correct choice is to choose the least unethical of the two?
If you answered 'yes', do you believe that helping someone who, in your judgement, will come to great harm if you do not help and there is no other obvious source of better aid is a good thing?
If you answered 'yes' we are basically in agreement. You can quibble about if he could do it in a better manner, but basically Barry is out helping people in situations where he's the best or even the only option for helping them.

Now that we've derailed the thread enough, what say we get back to the show?

[Kyberwulf]

You asked when will they start to question their actions of locking people up without a trial.
I believe you already answered you own question. If all actions are subjective, then there is no ethical or moral boundaries.

Since they have taken it upon themselves to police these meta humans, then why is it so morally black and white about convicting and punishing them.

You ask when they will question the morality of locking people up in a 10' by 10' cell with out amenities. I ask you, why gives them the right to run around playing cops and robbers with them in the first place. If they can't contain the situation, then they shouldn't be running around trying to stop them. Otherwise you will just have a Batman/Arkham Asylum revolving door situation here. Where is the Morality in just putting dangerous criminals in a situation they can just break out of in the first place. It's not like the two people they put in the cells are innocent people. They have proven that they are a danger to society.

If the people responsible for the peace and security of society, can't even do their jobs of maintaining the peace and security. What makes you think the same people could hold, judge and execute those judgments?

If Barry is out helping people in situations where he's the best or even the only option for helping them. Then how come that doesn't extend to containing the threats so that they can't repeat their actions?

If they don't have the right to judge and enforce those judgment without a governing body, then they don't have the moral authority to play dress up and run around tying to enforce the laws without a governing body.

[Ravian]

It's not that keeping the villains in a secure facility to contain them is in of itself immoral, I fully agree that Star Labs is probably the best place to keep them. The issue is that they are still circumnavigating the legal system to do it. Just because you are more competent at catching and containing the criminals than mundane police are, doesn't mean you can just ignore all aspects of the legal system.

The clearest solution is to stop with the secrecy, march up to the police, say that there are metahumans running around that are outside their abilities to deal with, and offer their facilities as a secure place to contain them once they are brought to justice (with the help of their speedster friend)

[grolim]

The thing is they are not planning to keep them there forever. They have said, yes Wells could be lying about it, that they are also trying to "cure" them. If they can remove their powers then they would no longer be a danger. Well no more of a danger than any other bully, thug, or psychopath. Plastique would have been there to, with them looking to cure her. But she would not have been locked up since she was not trying to hurt anyone. At least not until Wells convinced her.

One a side note. Isn't one of Grodd's powers with his mind illusion? Could be be Wells and making all the others see a human in a wheelchair? Or could he just be controlling him and using him as a channel for those powers. It seemed Plastique sure switched easy.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I like how people are confusing morality with legality like doing something illegal somehow makes it automatically unethical or immoral.

The clearest solution is to stop with the secrecy, march up to the police, say that there are metahumans running around that are outside their abilities to deal with, and offer their facilities as a secure place to contain them once they are brought to justice (with the help of their speedster friend)

Except that won't happen, they'll want their own secure facilities to contain them so that later Amanda Waller can recruit into the suicide squad forcing dangerous meta-humans into slavery. As if they weren't dangerous enough without a legitimate reason to be pissed off. General Eiling in the most recent episode would want to take and recruit all these metahumans for the army.

[Clertar]

Don't worry, Anders will blow something up and the kidnapped metas will rebel.

[Ravian]

I like how people are confusing morality with legality like doing something illegal somehow makes it automatically unethical or immoral.

Except that won't happen, they'll want their own secure facilities to contain them so that later Amanda Waller can recruit into the suicide squad forcing dangerous meta-humans into slavery. As if they weren't dangerous enough without a legitimate reason to be pissed off. General Eiling in the most recent episode would want to take and recruit all these metahumans for the army.

I'm not saying they've crossed the line, I'm saying that they've set a dangerous precedent here. What happens when you have, for example, an intangible robber. The only prison that can hold him is one made of a substance Star labs knows about and can make. That being said, the guy has not killed anyone, merely robbing them so he can live the big life. They can't just ship him to the police, since without knowledge of his abilities and the means to counteract them, he'll be out in an instant. At the same time, it would be both illegal and immoral to lock him up in their super-prison for the rest of his life. They don't have the resources to rehabilitate him. (And as far as we've seen, they have no plans to attempt to rehabilitate any of the metas they've already captured. In that sort of situation, the best course would be to send him to a normal prison, while providing the law enforcement the means to contain him there.

The issue with people like Waller and Eiling is its own problem. If we made every decision with the thought that it would be relentlessly abused by those with power, than we wouldn't be able to do anything. If there were big powerful people in the IRS quietly pocketing large portions of people's taxes and using it for their own gain, then the answer is not "Don't pay taxes." because the taxes are still necessary for things to function. The answer is "Deal with those that are abusing the system."

To put it another way, imagine if Batman locked up everyone in his rogue's gallery in a secret prison in the Batcave. Would they be able to escape as easily as they do with Arkham? Probably not. However, Batman certainly can't provide the psychiatric care they would need to have a hope at treating their insanity. (They'd also be far more dangerous if they do break out in the bat cave than if they escape Arkham, since odds are they could find their way up to Wayne Manor and then the whole secret's out. Same issue with keeping a bunch of angry meta-humans directly below your base of operations.) Obviously you can go on as much as you want about how incompetent they are at Arkham. (I agree, and I still shake my head whenever they do something as idiotic as leaving a houseplant in Poison Ivy's cell) but it is still where they are kept, and just because the legal system is too incompetent to know when a psycho in clown makeup deserves the chair, doesn't mean that Batman has the right to take justice into his own hands like that. That is what separates him from the average vigilante, and that's why its no more moral for Flash to do it here.

[Kyberwulf]

Okay, if a child has a doggie, and it is being nice there isn't a problem.

now if that dog acts up and starts biting people or gets rabies, or just generally goes mean. Do we not, as adults, have the responsibility of taking care of the dog so it doesn't pose a danger to anyone?

What we have here is basically, some adult, taken care of the dog when it acts out. Putting it on a leash.. then handing the lease to the child with the expectation of the child being able to handle the dog, or the dog just magically going to be okay. This is the case of Batman/Arkham Asylum.

This isn't a dangerous precedent. It's the only logical conclusion that should have happen a long time ago. Barry and Co. don't have to question the morality of what the are doing, because they aren't doing anything that wouldn't be done in the first place. Also, they aren't exactly doing any torturing, killing or being outright morally ambiguous.

[Ravian]

Okay, if a child has a doggie, and it is being nice there isn't a problem.

now if that dog acts up and starts biting people or gets rabies, or just generally goes mean. Do we not, as adults, have the responsibility of taking care of the dog so it doesn't pose a danger to anyone?

What we have here is basically, some adult, taken care of the dog when it acts out. Putting it on a leash.. then handing the lease to the child with the expectation of the child being able to handle the dog, or the dog just magically going to be okay. This is the case of Batman/Arkham Asylum.

This isn't a dangerous precedent. It's the only logical conclusion that should have happen a long time ago. Barry and Co. don't have to question the morality of what the are doing, because they aren't doing anything that wouldn't be done in the first place. Also, they aren't exactly doing any torturing, killing or being outright morally ambiguous.

There are two functions of prisons: One, that they are able to restrain criminals from harming the public. Two, unless they are in there for life imprisonment without parole, they are supposed to rehabilitate the criminals so that they won't slip back to their old ways once they are released. (Obviously some people have more of the opinion that prisons should act as deterrents for criminals, but this becomes less solid when you have super-villains that have a much more solid chance of avoiding capture than regular criminals.) This is doubly true when you have an asylum where the inmates literally cannot be held responsible for their actions because of their mental psychoses.

The issue with the Star lab prison (as well as any theoretical batcave asylum) is that while they can fullfill the first requirement more effectively than a regular prison can, they are almost fully incapable of fulfilling the second one. (even if one were to use the punishment idea for prisons.)

Arkham may not have been capable of fully curing any of batman's foes yet, but certainly not for lack of trying (corrupt and insane psychologists notwithstanding) and I believe a number of storylines have involved one of his foes being rehabilitated for a period (unfortunately due to the status-quo in comics, they inevitably relapse sooner or later). Arkham for all of its flaws, is the only real hope for the redemption of any of Batman's foes, and that is not something that Batman could provide if he kept them in his cave. Even if he could get the required training to reach them psychologically, he's only one guy, and can't hope to balance crime fighting with rehabilitation. He also can't get the staff necessary to help him, since that would involve bringing in even more people to know about his secret identity. The best solution therefore is to try and work through the system, update Arkham until its security is reliable enough so it can fulfill its true function of rehabilitation. (This is definitely something that Batman is likely trying to accomplish, since he can help provide Arkham with the funding and technology necessary through Wayne Enterprises)

Star Lab's has a similar problem. Even if they are more capable at containing the meta-humans, they can't ensure that justice is metted out correctly while operating in complete secrecy (to the point where they are actively trying to deny the existence of meta-humans). Not only are they incapable of providing rehabilitation to any of their inmates, but they may be forced to hand out wildly inappropriate sentences out of necessity. Going back to my previous example, what happens when they encounter a meta-human that has committed a crime not worthy of life imprisonment without parole, while still being incapable of being held in a regular prison? Do they just lock every small-time crook away in their private prison for as long as they live? Or do they work with providing the appropriate authorities with the means to provide their prisons with both the proper security for their powers as well as the staff and authority necessary to accomplish some form of rehabilitation?

Your analogy of the dog is flawed in that regard. For it to work we have to imagine a scenario where while the adult has the physical strength to restrain the dog from biting people, only the child is capable of teaching the dog not to bite people. Thus the secret prison is the equivalent of the adult holding on to the biting dog for the rest of its life. (where it will never learn to stop biting people, and there will always be the threat that it could still escape and bite the adult.) While putting the criminals in a regular prison is giving the child the lease. (Where it may be taught, but will more likely escape and bite people again). Obviously the best result here is the compromise. The adult hangs onto the dog (Star provides the necessary security) while the child teaches it not to bite people (the authorities rehabilitate the inmates) and before long hopefully the dog will no longer bite people and the leash will be unnecessary.

(Obviously another part of the necessary analogy is the idea that the dog may be untrainable and may have to be put down, despite the child's protests and the adults reservations against such a course (the equivalent being knowing when to accept that everyone would be better off if the Joker were dead) but this being about superheroes (once again with the supreme status-quo) this issue cannot be fully addressed within their confines.)

[Kitten Champion]

As I see it, Star Labs is no better than Amanda Waller or her ilk. Ultimately we know that it's being run by a murdering sociopath operating a prison exclusively to achieve his own ends, regardless if its for amoral experimentation or countless other possible things.

The difference being Barry and company are unaware of the fact, and are not even skeptical, whereas most people under Waller are pretty hip to what's going on.

What all these people, the Suicide Squad or that Eeeeeevillllllll~ General, have in common is that they operate in secret beyond the scrutiny of law or the press. This lets them make amazingly stupid decisions in the name of amoral peacekeeping or national defence time and time again with impunity.

If anyone actually cared about these meta-human's welfare passed the end of the episode, they'd come forward to the press and police directly. The police deserve better resources in their attempts to deal with the plausible threats out there anyways, and it's entirely likely the public will learn of meta-peoples eventually anyways. Actually, they should know already based off of events we've already seen being investigated, but... this show isn't going for realism in that aspect.

Which is fine, really, it still just makes Barry seem woefully naive.

[Kyberwulf]

The thing about these guys with superpowers. They have already proven to be corrupted by them... or rather corrupted the powers they get. I think it is naïve to think that with just the right amount of help, they can be saved. Maybe that could be the case with normal criminals. These guys have superpowers. Which the key word is, power. Everyone knows, power corrupts. That might sound cynical. But with these super powers, even petty thugs will eventually become worse and worse. The more they can break the laws, the more then can get away with, the more they will evolve into harsher crimes.

The thing with the dog, is as adults. The adult wouldn't have to hold the leash forever. They would just have to hold it till they can determine what to do with the dog. Keep it locked up, kill it, or try to "fix" it. Just giving it back the child is not a good answer.

On the other argument. As well, and as right as it should be to come clean about the accident and everything that happen after it. It might not be such a good thing. I am pretty sure, the Government would come in and hamstring any attempt Barry and co. are doing to contain the situation. Heck, they would probably make it worse. Also, I wouldn't trust the government to properly deal with these Supers either. They would end up subverting the effort to contain theses guys, and use them to their own end. Ending up lying to the world about them anyway. Coming clean about the superpowered criminals would cause a lot of fear and panic. Remember, this is the first time people with superpowers has shown up in this world, I do believe, even counting Arrow.

[Ravian]

The thing about these guys with superpowers. They have already proven to be corrupted by them... or rather corrupted the powers they get. I think it is naïve to think that with just the right amount of help, they can be saved. Maybe that could be the case with normal criminals. These guys have superpowers. Which the key word is, power. Everyone knows, power corrupts. That might sound cynical. But with these super powers, even petty thugs will eventually become worse and worse. The more they can break the laws, the more then can get away with, the more they will evolve into harsher crimes.

Rather blanket statement that based on all of the (what, less than a dozen?) meta-humans we have encountered, most of whom have died in the fighting, all of them are beyond redemption? That goes right on to extremely cynical. Flash hasn't been corrupted by his power. You have literally no basis that the powers will corrupt everyone that has the slightest inclination for criminal activities. Once again, what if a guy just uses his powers to steal? What if they're doing it to feed their families? You can't just declare that anyone who ever uses superpowers for less than moral activities is irreversibly tainted. Maybe you can even argue that the guys they've captured do truly deserve it. That still doesn't solve the issue when they inevitably encounter someone that is within redemption.

The thing with the dog, is as adults. The adult wouldn't have to hold the leash forever. They would just have to hold it till they can determine what to do with the dog. Keep it locked up, kill it, or try to "fix" it. Just giving it back the child is not a good answer.

On the other argument. As well, and as right as it should be to come clean about the accident and everything that happen after it. It might not be such a good thing. I am pretty sure, the Government would come in and hamstring any attempt Barry and co. are doing to contain the situation. Heck, they would probably make it worse. Also, I wouldn't trust the government to properly deal with these Supers either. They would end up subverting the effort to contain theses guys, and use them to their own end. Ending up lying to the world about them anyway. Coming clean about the superpowered criminals would cause a lot of fear and panic. Remember, this is the first time people with superpowers has shown up in this world, I do believe, even counting Arrow.

But are superheroes necessarily the adults in every scenario? They're stronger physically yes. You might even say they have a good sense of right and wrong. But that doesn't automatically make them the "Adult" in every scenario. Once again, has Superman taking over the world so he can "save everyone" ever been portrayed as a good thing? If you want to talk about power corrupting, try putting all the power in the hands of those with the power to claim it. Because that is what you get when you begin to trust every aspect of the justice system to a bunch of guys who happen to have the technology and a really fast guy.

As much as we like to give grief to the government, trusting everything to the guys with the most firepower that people trust to do the right thing is still an autocracy, with virtually no check to their power aside through violence by other people with firepower.

[Kyberwulf]

My blanket statement has more weight. So far every Meta human encountered has used their power in a negative fashion. The ones killed and the ones that have been put into the Jail cells. You are using a hypothetical Meta human that only uses his powers for petty crimes. The Flash hasn't been corrupted. But so far some of his actions can be questionable. Counting, apparently, His willingness to imprison people is currently the one under discussion. Although his current quest is to get his dad out of prison. (which by the way, he was planning on just breaking him out) What is going to happen when he finds out who killed his mom, and knowing that person is out there. He also took way to much pleasure in taunting and defeating his childhood bully. That felt way to much like revenge.

Also, using Berry as an example is kind of pointless. He is the protagonist so of course he is going to be the exception to the rule. He is always going to have people who will bring him back from the brink of crossing the line. We will never see what his real and normal reaction to anything that happens to him, because he will always be contrived back to the path of a hero.