Is Roy's dad able to get into the LG heaven?

[Heksefatter]

yeah, it certainly depends of the DM and the kind of game you are playing, i happen to think that personality quirks or defects are great for LG characters (and every character), since i can give them more personality beyond "am a saint" and while they can lead to a character commiting actions that will make his alignment change, is not the character quirk that makes him fall from grace, it's his actions in the world.

In this case in particular Eugene is selfish and uncaring, which explain why he assaulted a deva and destroyed evidence sent from the higher-ups. But I would judge him on his actions, not his attitude, if we did, for me it would be the same as; " you don't come into our afterlife because we don't like you", and it should be "you don't deserve to come into our afterlife".


having said that i got another question: is there any indication that the devas are able to judge any posthumous
action?

I fully agree that personality quirks are great for lawful good characters and anyone else. But those quirks can still pull them down from being lawful good. Let's say that a paladin has a cruel streak that he tries to rein in. That's fine for a story, but if he gives in too much, he risks not being lawful good anymore.

As for the stuff about posthumous actions, it is an interesting point that I've considered myself. Who knows? I remember an old Exalted campaign, set in a universe where posthumous actions explicitly do not matter. The players had an ally, a wise old monk, who had lived a pure life: No sex, no meat, no alcohol, plenty of excercise and hard work. Then he died, and haunted his monastery, with the ghost doing all the stuff it could never do in life. And the ghost was fully aware that its actions did not affect its status in the next life. The players exorcised the ghost by engaging it in a debate about what we are speaking about now: "If you haunt like that, you were the kind of man in life, who, as soon as the restaints were off, would act like a buffoon. Your true intent, which shows now, invalidates much of your good actions in life."

[veti]

He does have a point though. Unless he has undergone a radical change of personality since sitting on the cloud AND secretly gone on a malicious haunting of people since his death, his ability to alter his alignment in any meaningful way is seriously limited.

But we don't know what alignment he was at death.

The fact that he's on the cloud only proves (per the Giant's post, linked previously) that he had 'LG' written on his character sheet. The character sheet that, itself, may well have stopped being updated when the character retired from adventuring.

We don't know what happened at his interview, or whether he even had one. Maybe a deva simply appeared and said "well, normally we'd review your record for admission at this time, but because of this Blood Oath that you willingly contracted and then dumped on your son, there's not much point, you'll just have to wait here until it's fulfilled".

[ti'esar]

But we don't know what alignment he was at death.

The fact that he's on the cloud only proves (per the Giant's post, linked previously) that he had 'LG' written on his character sheet. The character sheet that, itself, may well have stopped being updated when the character retired from adventuring.

We don't know what happened at his interview, or whether he even had one. Maybe a deva simply appeared and said "well, normally we'd review your record for admission at this time, but because of this Blood Oath that you willingly contracted and then dumped on your son, there's not much point, you'll just have to wait here until it's fulfilled".

Uh, we saw his interview in SOD.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

And it made it pretty clear that the Blood Oath was the only thing keeping him from getting in.

[Killer Angel]

Uh, we saw his interview in SOD.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

And it made it pretty clear that the Blood Oath was the only thing keeping him from getting in.

Yes, that's true. At that time, it was so.
But now? your actions while you wait upon a cloud, for someone else to fullfill your oath, could add some footnotes to your curriculum... enough to gain a rewiew of your case.
.

[ti'esar]

Yes, that's true. At that time, it was so.
But now? your actions while you wait upon a cloud, for someone else to fullfill your oath, could add some footnotes to your curriculum... enough to gain a rewiew of your case.
.

I agree, actually. I'm just countering veti's suggestion that we don't even know whether his case originally got a review.

[hamishspence]

I agree, actually. I'm just countering veti's suggestion that we don't even know whether his case originally got a review.

The review stops the moment the Blood Oath is brought up and Eugene is unable to present a "Completion of Blood Oath certificate" after claiming "I completed that - must be a clerical error".

[zinycor]

I fully agree that personality quirks are great for lawful good characters and anyone else. But those quirks can still pull them down from being lawful good. Let's say that a paladin has a cruel streak that he tries to rein in. That's fine for a story, but if he gives in too much, he risks not being lawful good anymore.

Quirks don't pull a character down from LG, actions do, Eugene may fall from LG for assaulting a pure good and law being, or for burning very important documents sent by the higher ups. But he wouldn't fall for being selfish and uncaring or approving of V's actions, these things would explain why he did the unlawful or evil things he did, but I don't think he would be judged based on his selfishness or his ability to judge what is wrong.

[ti'esar]

Quirks don't pull a character down from LG, actions do, Eugene may fall from LG for assaulting a pure good and law being, or for burning very important documents sent by the higher ups. But he wouldn't fall for being selfish and uncaring or approving of V's actions, these things would explain why he did the unlawful or evil things he did, but I don't think he would be judged based on his selfishness or his ability to judge what is wrong.

What a character approves of may not shift their alignment, but it can certainly be a good indicator for it. Back when Malack's alignment was still up in the air, one of the main reasons I felt he was evil was that he was friends with Tarquin - a neutral character might have conceivably gone along with Tarquin's plans for the greater good, but he wouldn't have actually liked the guy. And so while approving of Darth V won't make Eugene evil or anything like that, it does suggest that he may no longer be exactly Lawful Good enough for Celestia.

[zinycor]

What a character approves of may not shift their alignment, but it can certainly be a good indicator for it. Back when Malack's alignment was still up in the air, one of the main reasons I felt he was evil was that he was friends with Tarquin - a neutral character might have conceivably gone along with Tarquin's plans for the greater good, but he wouldn't have actually liked the guy. And so while approving of Darth V won't make Eugene evil or anything like that, it does suggest that he may no longer be exactly Lawful Good enough for Celestia.

I guess it could be, but we know that roy and the others travel with belkar, and Durkon has even risked his life for him, does that make him less lawful and good? of course not. Besides, i don't really remember any part that said that malack liked tarquin, they were party compacions just like Belkar and Durkon.

As for Eugene approving Darth V (which probably he doesn't since nothing indicates he knows nothing about, how V obtained that power") makes total sense, since he has always said that destrying Xykon is a task for a wizard. I believe his motivation goes on the line of: "well, she had a great idea there, a shame it didn't succeed, but, Why bother the only person who can do something with these little problems? better get rid of it"

[Heksefatter]

I guess it could be, but we know that roy and the others travel with belkar, and Durkon has even risked his life for him, does that make him less lawful and good? of course not. Besides, i don't really remember any part that said that malack liked tarquin, they were party compacions just like Belkar and Durkon.

As for Eugene approving Darth V (which probably he doesn't since nothing indicates he knows nothing about, how V obtained that power") makes total sense, since he has always said that destrying Xykon is a task for a wizard. I believe his motivation goes on the line of: "well, she had a great idea there, a shame it didn't succeed, but, Why bother the only person who can do something with these little problems? better get rid of it"

But Eugene did know a bit about V's actions. He was told by the Deva that the papers Eugene received that "It details the elf wizards alarming dealings with the forces of evil."

We don't know how Much Eugene knows, but we do know that he approved dealings with the forces of evil.

[factotum]

We don't know how Much Eugene knows, but we do know that he approved dealings with the forces of evil.

No, he just didn't *disapprove* of those dealings sufficiently to want to hobble the only person in the Order who he felt was actually doing anything to stop Xykon. By your same logic, we can argue that Roy is evil because he clearly approves of using the evil Belkar to help stop Xykon.

Also, as stated already, Eugene didn't know the *details* of V's evil dealings. He didn't know that he'd dealt with three major-league evil beings, and that the price of that deal would potentially affect the team's ability to stop Xykon--he'd have passed it on in a heartbeat if he'd known that.

[ti'esar]

By your same logic, we can argue that Roy is evil because he clearly approves of using the evil Belkar to help stop Xykon.

Roy did have to defend his association with Belkar to the deva, though. By no means am I arguing that Eugene is evil - and while I can't speak with certainty, I don't think anyone else is either - just that, as I put it earlier, he may no longer be Lawful Good enough for Celestia.

[Heksefatter]

No, he just didn't *disapprove* of those dealings sufficiently to want to hobble the only person in the Order who he felt was actually doing anything to stop Xykon. By your same logic, we can argue that Roy is evil because he clearly approves of using the evil Belkar to help stop Xykon.

Also, as stated already, Eugene didn't know the *details* of V's evil dealings. He didn't know that he'd dealt with three major-league evil beings, and that the price of that deal would potentially affect the team's ability to stop Xykon--he'd have passed it on in a heartbeat if he'd known that.

If someone speaks about "the forces of evil" to the degree that it calls for celestial intervention in the form of a warning, it is pretty big. Bigger than just having a murderer in your party. What's more, Eugene had every chance to learn the details, since he got the papers on the case. He either read them and didn't care, or didn't even care enough to read them.

I do agree that Eugene would have passed on the papers, if he knew that the matter could affect the Order's chances to beat Xykon, but mostly because it affects himself. The three major-league evil beings, he has shown no sign of caring about.

[Throknor]

Roy did have to defend his association with Belkar to the deva, though. By no means am I arguing that Eugene is evil - and while I can't speak with certainty, I don't think anyone else is either - just that, as I put it earlier, he may no longer be Lawful Good enough for Celestia.

But there is no 'enough'. There isn't a Lawful-Good-Ish afterlife. The only way he could be stopped is if he is completely bereft of lawfulness or of goodness. While his methods may be arguable, he is still actively trying to get Xykon destroyed - a good intention. Other than being a jerk the only two new actions are highjacking a summons and burning the evidence. If those are against anything they'd be against his lawfulness.

[hamishspence]

But there is no 'enough'. There isn't a Lawful-Good-Ish afterlife. The only way he could be stopped is if he is completely bereft of lawfulness or of goodness. While his methods may be arguable, he is still actively trying to get Xykon destroyed - a good intention. Other than being a jerk the only two new actions are highjacking a summons and burning the evidence. If those are against anything they'd be against his lawfulness.

Actually there are two in core D&D - one for the Law-leaning and one for the Good-leaning (Arcadia and Byopia respectively). Or even the TN afterlife (Outlands), for those who are N but lean slightly toward other alignments like Law and Good.

The reference to "heaven or hell, valhalla or the abyss, limbo or nirvana, or a dozen in between"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

strongly suggests something similar applies to OoTS.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Actually there are two in core D&D - one for the Law-leaning and one for the Good-leaning (Arcadia and Byopia respectively). Or even the TN afterlife (Outlands), for those who are N but lean slightly toward other alignments like Law and Good.

The reference to "heaven or hell, valhalla or the abyss, limbo or nirvana, or a dozen in between"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

strongly suggests something similar applies to OoTS.

Also, Word of Giant says that it follows D&D cosmology as well.

[Jay R]

The reason he still gets into the LG paradise is the same reason Roy wasn't kicked over to the Neutral Good one - he's trying.

Eugene is very, very trying.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The reason he still gets into the LG paradise is the same reason Roy wasn't kicked over to the Neutral Good one - he's trying.

Eugene is very, very trying.

I think this might be my favorite reason yet.

[zinycor]

If someone speaks about "the forces of evil" to the degree that it calls for celestial intervention in the form of a warning, it is pretty big. Bigger than just having a murderer in your party. What's more, Eugene had every chance to learn the details, since he got the papers on the case. He either read them and didn't care, or didn't even care enough to read them.

I do agree that Eugene would have passed on the papers, if he knew that the matter could affect the Order's chances to beat Xykon, but mostly because it affects himself. The three major-league evil beings, he has shown no sign of caring about.

well, Roy himself turned the angel down, so I guess celestial intervention isn't that big of aa deal on the OOTS universe (frankly neither is on the games i have played xD), so if Roy thought that was irrelvant I think is only normal that Eugene thinks so too

[mouser9169]

Lawful Good does not mean adhering to the Paladin' Code.

Good people do evil things all the time, their alignment doesn't automatically flip to evil.
Evil people do good things all the time, their alignment doesn't automatically flip to good.

If Eugene qualified when he went up, he still qualifies now. Even rigging the trial wasn't an Evil act, and you can even argue that it _was_ a Lawful one since it allowed Roy to continue following the Blood Oath.

[ti'esar]

Lawful Good does not mean adhering to the Paladin' Code.

Of course not - but to bring a flippant remark back in a more serious fashion, as the deva emphasized to Roy what really matters when it comes to alignment is whether you're trying to live up to it. Do we really have a reason to believe Eugene is trying?

[Killer Angel]

If Eugene qualified when he went up, he still qualifies now.

Isn't this exactly what are we debating? That now he may be no more totally LG?
For example, Eugene's behavior in afterlife, is very selfish... and this is more neutral than good.

[factotum]

the deva emphasized to Roy what really matters when it comes to alignment is whether you're trying to live up to it. Do we really have a reason to believe Eugene is trying?

I don't think that's what she meant. She meant that in a marginal case like Roy's the whole "trying" thing is important--it would be less so in the case of someone who, say, was really trying hard to be Lawful Good, but couldn't resist burning down every orphanage they walked past.

[Killer Angel]

I don't think that's what she meant. She meant that in a marginal case like Roy's the whole "trying" thing is important--it would be less so in the case of someone who, say, was really trying hard to be Lawful Good, but couldn't resist burning down every orphanage they walked past.

That orphanage attacked me!

[Keltest]

That orphanage attacked me!

Orphanages are one of the deadliest predators known to people seeking an excuse for random destruction.

[Jay R]

Orphanages are one of the deadliest predators known to people seeking an excuse for random destruction.

It had a gazebo in back. I had to attack.

[INoKnowNames]

If Eugene qualified when he went up, he still qualifies now. Even rigging the trial wasn't an Evil act, and you can even argue that it _was_ a Lawful one since it allowed Roy to continue following the Blood Oath.

I'll agree that it certainly wasn't Evil to intervene in a trial; to attack and restrain a being of pure law and good to do so, however, screams of Chaos (and even the Deva made herself clear on this matter). And it allowed Roy to follow a Blood Oath that was made in a Chaotic Mindset by a man who lost interest and the will to follow it in his own life time, and only continues to follow it now because his eternal resting place can't be decided until it gets cleared up.

Quite frankly, while I wouldn't say that he's going to Hell or anything, Roy is a man trying to be Lawful (though veering Chaotic here or there in following it), while Eugene seems to only follow what rules are convenient to him or his goals. I'd be willing to swallow that he's a good man, but we've personally seen far more examples of him being Chaotic than we have of seeing him being Lawful, and if Roy was in danger of being thrown to the Neutral Good afterlife, my bet is such that Eugene's more likely than not going to be sent there.

He qualified to be tested for his chance at getting into the Lawful Good afterlife. He could have failed that test even before the Blood Oath, and since trying to lead Roy, Eugene certainly doesn't seem to be very Axiomatic. Hell, Eugene was willing to cover up genocide, even when asked by a being of Law and Good, if it meant Roy continuing his adventuring. That's sure as hell not Lawful.

[Sith_Happens]

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Eugene didn't qualify as lawful good when he died. It's his actions since his death that have thrown his alignment into question.

Part of the question is whether those actions count in the first place. As far as we know so far one's judgment in an afterlife is based solely on one's actions in life, in which case the most anyone in Celestia can do is give him a slap on the wrist*. There's also the fact that Eugene is technically an Outsider now, and there's been no indication so far that Outsiders in the OotS-verse are even capable of changing alignment (they are by the game rules, though it's a one-in-a-trillion event at most).

* On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if they had an entire legion of Legal Devas specialized in getting exactly this kind of case kicked over to Arcadia.

[Throknor]

Of course not - but to bring a flippant remark back in a more serious fashion, as the deva emphasized to Roy what really matters when it comes to alignment is whether you're trying to live up to it. Do we really have a reason to believe Eugene is trying?

To be pedantic, Eugene isn't alive anymore; he's an oathspirit. He can't live up to anything.

Remember Violet? She didn't seem to think the adultery was going to be a problem getting in. Eugene states there's nothing to do except 'watch the living or hook up'. Generally speaking with little else possible there might not be a system for re-judging an oathspirit as there's little they could do to influence anything of importance.

I've had a suspicion the judgement itself is for show anyway and souls are pre-sorted. Similar to the guilt-for-sex, it's something the Lawful Good expect so they go through it. Just as Lawful Evil expect a bureaucratic inbox and everything that goes along with it.

[hamishspence]

I've had a suspicion the judgement itself is for show anyway and souls are pre-sorted. Similar to the guilt-for-sex, it's something the Lawful Good expect so they go through it.

This quote from the Giant on the subject, may be relevant:

There are only 17 Outer Planes; Roy's alignment would have to match one of them, because you can't not have an alignment. The deva only got "first look" because Lawful Good was the alignment Roy declared himself to be. It was his goal, and the review was to see if he had really met that goal. If he didn't, that would mean he actually had some other alignment, in which case the powers-that-be on that plane would have been happy to have him.